 Good evening, and welcome to episode 338 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Uzaman Dunwoa Kumarlo. It's a Friday edition of the Private Property Podcast, and if you're joining us for the first time, welcome to the early daily property talk show in South Africa, catering to all of your property needs. It doesn't matter where you are in the property journey, you could be looking to buy, to sell, to build, or perhaps you're currently renting. This is a show that helps you make better property decisions. And to all our regular viewers at home, whether you're watching us on Facebook, on Instagram, or on YouTube, welcome to it. You know how we do. We always come to your screens every single weekday at 7pm, when we're always in conversation with the property expert who helps us navigate our property journeys better. And of course, one of the other things that we absolutely love doing is to make the property circle bigger, whether you're watching us on Instagram, on Facebook, on YouTube, do you make sure that you share the love, especially to those of you watching us. Of course, on Facebook, I want to see all the love that we always get and see who is present and watching. And of course, on our Facebook page, we are running our competition, where you send a chance of walking away with 500 rands every single day. And all you have to do is to comment, share the post that we have pinned on our Facebook page. And if you do that and recall your name, you need to be watching us live in order to claim your prize. Fortunately, if you don't, if you're not watching when you call your name and the show ends, then the money rolls over to the following day. So this evening, I'm quite excited to see who is going to be walking away with this evening's prize. I hope they're watching. I think ending off the week with some cash is always fantastic. So it's going to be great to see who is going to be the lucky winner this evening. And if in fact, we are going to be watching us this evening. And as it is a Friday, you can catch, of course, Chad on the Homeshopper's show. He comes to your screens every Mondays and Fridays at 8pm, where he takes us through exquisite properties that you can find on www.privateproperty.co.za. And if it Tuesdays and Thursdays, a warden and farmer, Umbali Noko, takes us through the farming podcast and all things agriculture. And she talks to a whole host of different grates from farmers themselves and of course, to other key stakeholders in the agricultural landscape. And on Wednesdays, Esti Klassen takes us through the first time homebuyer show. She's always in conversation with people who've not only walked that first time homebuying journey, but have gone on to grow their property portfolios from strength to strength. Well, those are the great shows that you can catch on private properties, social media pages every single weekday at 8pm. So do you make sure that you set your alarms and of course, follow us across our social media pages. We're on Facebook, on YouTube, on LinkedIn, on Twitter. We're also on TikTok. You can follow myself at zamandonga underscore, OK, on Twitter as well as on Instagram. But this evening, we're talking about something that I am very excited about, the township property sector is one that I know many of us are watching. I'm from Egasi myself. And I always say that having a few properties Egasi is probably a good balance of your property portfolio and not just from a cash flow perspective, but certainly from a capital appreciation perspective, when we even look at the data of the price appreciation of especially, for example, Soweto, I'm from Soweto, you really do realize that having a property now Egasi is probably going to be one of those great investments further down the line. Now, this evening, we're going to be looking at how landlords are transforming the township market and we're going to be speaking to somebody and I've promised this before on the show. And because we always keep our promises, we did just that. When we're bringing them in, we're going to be speaking to the financial and impact analysts at Mastandi. And we're going to be having a conversation about, you know, of course, how how landlords are transforming the township market, but also looking at the offering from, you know, Mastandi and also just getting a really good sense of Tough 21. I know many of you at home have heard me talk about Tough quite a lot. We've had different entrepreneurs come on the show who have, you know, spoken about Tough and how some of them have been able to even access funding from Tough, you know, one person who comes to mind is who, of course, you know, it has his border properties in Blum using financing from Tough. So we're going to be having a conversation about the difference even because I mean, I will even having a conversation of air with because I think many of us know Tough from from one angle and don't quite know about Mastandi and the offering that Mastandi has. And then, of course, a different ways that you are able to take advantage of it. I want to find out from you at home. Firstly, if you have a property in the township or if you're looking to go into the property sector in the township and if you're not what's stopping you and if you're looking or exploring at going into it, what are some of the possibilities that you are seeing? Do you share with us down here below? Can you say a good evening and thank you so much for joining us in the show this evening. Thanks so much. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us and I can't wait to share more about Tough 21 and the work that we're doing with Mastandi and the township. And I think, you know, perhaps the good starting point is for explaining Tough 21 because as I was saying, many people, we know Tough. We've spoken about it as I was sharing, which we've even had people on the show who've accessed funding from Tough, but not everybody is probably aware of then, OK, what's Tough 21? What's Mastandi? So I think first, let's just have a breakdown of Tough 21 and Mastandi and the opportunity, really, that Mastandi presents for landlords and even other property owners in the townships. Thank you. So with basically the Tough Group historically has provided finance for 18 years in the inner cities, basically taking the opportunity of providing liquidity in places where banks were not providing any finance. And we have then taken all that expertise of knowledge of backing entrepreneurs, creating affordable accommodation, our commitment to urban and markets and urban housing and taking that and carrying that formula through Tough 21, which is our parent company with across the group into the township to assist SMMEs and township entrepreneurs to create quality, affordable township accommodation for rental purposes. So basically that is in a nutshell how these companies interact. We're still in the same place. If you're looking for Mastandi, you'll find it where you find tough or the tough offices and we keep a strong connection between the brands. But we're taking all of these expertise, this knowledge around residential property and to the township. One of the things that I've shared with our viewers at home every time we've spoken about Tough in particular, I mean, I've interacted with some of your colleagues, not just on air, but even wanting finance actually, you know, looking at different properties. I think at the time I was looking at buildings in Pretoria and, you know, started the journey and I think one of the things I share is how fundamentally different it is interacting with let's make it tough holistically than, for example, interacting with your other financiers or just the classical banks. I mean, one of the things was, you know, your first having a conversation before even looking at the different properties and where they have run my numbers and looking at the business plan. I think what for me was very interesting and different to how we would typically deal with, you know, a financing institution is they first wanting to get to know the entrepreneur and, you know, you spoke to it that you're really looking at backing the entrepreneur. And they always, you know, emphasize that, yes, the deal must make sense and the numbers make sense, but first I actually want to get to know you first as an entrepreneur. I think first, just almost clarify that for us because I know many people wouldn't be aware of that. And if anything, you know, you're thinking it's going to be the same as, you know, getting into any big bank, trying to find, you know, financing and you're just filling in a form and it wasn't that right. I mean, I literally sat down with, you know, different colleagues and having a chat and even having a chat about, you know, your background where you're going and that almost forms the foundation of the relationship as opposed to it being just smiling in a chat before filling in forms. So, I mean, this goes through our brand ethos, right? We believe we are a entrepreneurial bunch with street smart and to survive in the inner city and for 18 years and to survive in the township, you've kind of have to have the both of those things, right? So just, you know, no offense, but shop point shoes and that kind of is not the way it's not our style, it's not part of the brand. So we want to be, we are invested in the inner city. We are invested in the township, we're part of those people. And sometimes I guess some of our banking friends make this investment thing quite a complex and then excruciating experience. And that's not what we do. We want to get to know you. We have, we form a 15 year relationship with you. We want to be able to back you, want to be able to grow you. So we believe in two things. And I think you've mentioned it. We want to want to know the horse, but we want to also back the jockey. So those are the two things. Horse being the assets, which is your property portfolio and the jockey, which is the person who's really running the ship. So we want to be able to balance it, to know you, understand it, understand this and really we are all about strong financial commercial returns. And those are beneficial for ourselves and just a larger shareholder or stakeholder environment, but that's where that's where we start. So of course, when you come into our offices, we pull a chair, we want to get to know you, want to talk to you. We do our mentorship and training program. We want to upskill our entrepreneurs and we want to grow. And fundamental to how we do businesses around the key of transformation and increase of growth and changing, I guess, the property ownership patterns that have historically I'll use the word plagued our country. And by doing and by enabling and banking, I guess, the unbanked and assisting entrepreneurs in this really down to earth way, I think we can make that change. If you have just joined us this evening, I'm in conversation with Ustini Sehraumbata, who's a financial and impact analyst at Tuft 21. We're looking at how landlords are transforming the township market. I'm seeing all the love that you are sending us on our Facebook page. Kenan McClellan is watching. Martha Shenang is watching saying and didn't saying that, you know, township economy is so important. Michelle Beaumarans is watching Andre Pitot. I see those green hearts and thank you for all the compliments. I'm absolutely loving them. Tasneem Abdullah also tweeting and posting rather there on our Facebook page and Kellen Owens also on our Facebook page. Now, I think, you know, one of the things is going to sell when we then look at the the township property market. I think for us, let's just look at the opportunity, right? I mean, I for many, I think it's it's it's an obvious, you know, case. But I think for people who may not have a township background, because I think one of the things I'm realizing is, I mean, as I was saying earlier, I grew up Pegasi and so I'm very familiar with even some of the property opportunities because grew up there. You kind of see it and you're now also just seeing it in the context of where we're finding ourselves today. But not everybody had a township background. We are finding people coming to Joburg who come from rural areas or semi urban areas and may not quite see it. And so need to just get a sense of so what is the opportunity really in the township property market? So there's a couple of things and I want to touch on some trends that that you would note specifically around urbanization around, you know, the township areas and so on. And that's one thing urbanization as a worldwide trend. So the UN tells us 70 percent of people across the world will be moving to urban areas. And our our townships are roads around of suburbs, basically around urban environments and big cities. And in South Africa, sixty three to sixty five percent is urbanized, meaning that townships become a key place where we see people moving to. So there is a strong demand, I guess, for then affordable accommodation and accommodation. So that's what you see in the township, strong demand for affordable accommodation. You're also starting to see things like technology trends, right? Big push on Wi-Fi and using this work from home, which is probably one of the greater parts of this this pandemic that we've gone through. And and that technology trend is a lot of fiber flowing into the township. And that uses opening up a lot of other platforms that were not available. Not just on a property sense, but also other businesses that are leveraging from that. Then you're seeing a very strong profile of tenants that is quite different from what we historically associate townships with. They are great tenants, young professionals who are preferring to to live in the township, strongly because because of historical connections and also the love for for for the space. And you are seeing quite more and more quality, affordable housing being built in and around township Cosmo City, Soweto and nodes around Orlando showing showing that. And it's, you know, and it's not just residential, but commercial spaces. It's it's investment, these malls and so on and strong amenities that are supporting that. And then one of the great things, probably one of your viewers have already picked that up, the whole government and kind of like fiscal push towards investment in townships because seeing that this is a is a strong population hub and is a place that can be grown, right? The numbers like the rental property market is around 20 billion random contribution to the GDP. So all of these things are starting to show that people are paying attention. There's academic studies that are supporting township development. These government plans around densification. How do we boost the infrastructure to the township and all of that investment and also private money flowing through the creation of these malls and places that we can access. So so all of those kind of trains are showing opportunities. And for us, investors in real estate, those are now the trend is your friend as as we always say, right? So when there is a trend of investment and it's not only yours, that's where I think as a property entrepreneur, you should be and taking advantage of these opportunities in the market. And, you know, I want us to go for a quick break to first to see who the potential lucky winner is this evening. I see we had a roll over last night. And when we come back, I didn't want us to look at the criteria for my stand for people at home who are in townships. What the criteria for my standing looks like, especially for those who may not even be aware that they probably qualify to be able to access financing from my stand because I think one of the things that we find quite a lot on the show is that there are people who either buying, for example, investment properties, single units. Others are in townships and are trying to find various ways of already maximizing the property that they currently have. And don't always know the different places they can go to to access some of that funding. Let's go for the quick break and see who this evening's lucky winner is. We've got one thousand rands in the money bag. Let's see who's going to be walking away with that. And this evening's winner is O'Bonganin Pombo. Bonganin Pombo, if you are watching, drop us a message down here below to claim that one thousand rands. Bonganin Pombo, I hope you're watching. It's a Friday. I think wrapping up or starting off your weekend. A thousand rands, Richard, is probably one of the best ways to kickstart your weekend. So Bonganin Pombo, if you're watching, do make sure that you drop us a text down here below to claim that money. And of course, this evening, we're exploring how, you know, landlords are transforming the township market. And I think one of the great things is, you know, it's going to say I was already given a such a great overview of just some of the opportunities that the township property market has has is at, you know, some of the opportunities that are there at the moment and the potential different ways that you may be able to take advantage of them in the event where you want to go into the property in the township property market. Now, it's going to go for people then who are, you know, interested to access funding from Uma Standi. Can you just take us through then? How does funding from Uma Standi work? And I'll say even the eligibility criteria for people who may want to access the financing. All right. So first thing I would say about our entrepreneurs who are interested, they should kind of have an idea of what they want to do before approaching. So either one, understand, have a let's take you want to go the buying, purchasing and existing property route, understand what does the property, how much income does it have, who owns it and kind of like that, that those basic things that you should look at. I will go through a couple of points now. I think that are universal. Number one, understand if it's financially feasible. So you would know you would have this bond calculators all over the internet, understand exactly what it would cost you if the income would be able to work. So is it financially feasible because it is commercial finance? And this is the great thing about commercial finance. It's not only looking at your personal income as mortgage finance would. So you would go 300,000 rent. And I think 300,000 a year and then they would end you 900 or whatever the case may be. But with this, with commercial finance, looking at it as a business, so understanding your focus, understanding where you stand. And then these things are not really complicated. You find banks and so on complicating the system. So if you are looking at opportunity or investment opportunity, you just want to understand how much you stand to make here and what it is going to cost you to understand your rights to trade and build in this particular property, understand those constraints. It's very important to look at the town planning scene in that area. What can you possibly do in that specific place? And you don't need to figure out in yourself, there's professionals who can assist you because they can partner with you. So collaboration is absolutely key. And then also your product and design. And remember, different things work for different nodes. So you need to be able to fit your particular market, your particular node or your particular place with what is out there so you can remain competitive. And one of the things that I've been seeing quite recently with kind of what we've gone through in the pandemic, there's different typologies that are no longer working, like when you have to share pollutions and those spaces. But if you are now having something self-contained and looking at a model like that, those things are more attractive for those kinds of properties. So kind of look at those. But also the property management, I can't just know how you are going to manage the property at the end of the day. We love people who are managing their properties by themselves. If they have the time, prison, landlords is absolutely important. I always say property is not necessarily a passive income. It does need somebody who is going to be hands-on, checking it out. It's an asset, right? So understanding the asset, it's a long-term relationship. So understanding it from a capital perspective that you are making sure that it's growing on a capital basis and the value is increasing. And that also that you can be able to extract the income that you want so that you can be able to either one, reinvest somewhere else, or find other opportunities that you can invest in. So property management is absolutely key. And then another couple of things is that now what do these numbers tell us, right? So when you come to Mustang, we want you to have a cash, a DCR or debt service cover ratio. And that basically means for every one random you will have of debt servicing, you want you to be able to have cash flow of 1.4, so 1.40 cents, right? And then also LTV value, loan to valuation. You don't also want to have so much debt in your property that you're only working for Mustang. So having a little equity in there, making that equity work for you and kind of gearing that up so we then look for an LTV of 80%. And then two, which is absolutely important, which is that jockey thing that I'm talking about, character. You're looking for somebody who is. And we have some very cliche understanding of entrepreneurs. I find entrepreneurs to be really careful, smart individuals, not hasty, who take calculated risks as something that is always said. And that's the people we're looking for, people who have studied what they wanted to study the market. And we can then back. And any other thing we can learn along the way, there's great lessons that are learned in the process. So you don't have to have everything figured out, but those kind of basics is a good basis in which we can build a great partnership. You know, I think you've actually just given us such a great overview, not just of the, I'll say the Mastandi investment ethos or what you are looking for as a Mastandi, but also pointers on property entrepreneurs, especially operating in that space. Because I think regardless of where you're going to be trying to access funding, and if somehow you're able to even raise private capital for some of the property projects that you may want to do, the fundamentals stay the same. I think that the fundamentals don't suddenly change because you're going to a financier. And so if anything, if you stick, I'll say to the fundamentals that often financiers look for, when you don't need financing from financiers, you tend to find that you're able to run and manage your property business so well because you're already almost running it as though, I'll say you're reporting to a financial institution or you still have to be paying a financial institution because it's so easy for people. When you know there are those mortgage payments you need to make, you're on top of it and you're on the ball, but the moment you know that everything is cash financed, you've made up certain components, you find some people become slightly relaxed and they don't work at either maintaining the property, making sure that occupancy remains high and also just making sure that tenants are happy because I think when you just get into the system of it and really stick to ensuring that the basics always make sense and you take care of the basics, the other bits do have a way of figuring themselves out. And I think one of the things, I can say that I'd like you to take us through as we look at now, as we're talking about how, sometimes when there's somebody you have to pay, there's a greater level of accountability and you kind of run the business slightly better. What have been some of the mistakes that you found property entrepreneurs, particularly within the townships space make? And I ask it particularly in the township space because we're finding that more and more people are seeing opportunities, like I see some you have a family home and in some way, most of the family has moved, gone to the suburbs or other parts of the city or the country and there might be one person who still live there and they want to maximize that particular property. And some of them do, they build them at double story only seeing all kinds of different structures being put up in townships, which on the one hand is fantastic. On the other, when you look at it, we're like, if you had gotten just a few things, just that hang out, it would have been a better business case for sort of long-term financing and you would have also been able to offload it should that time arise. Then one of the things is some of the guys who got in, I'll say relatively early and did that, are struggling to sell their properties because they're not getting finance, right? And you're not gonna get somebody who's got two M cash to buy your property. I see that you've put double story back rooms in and in as much as you can say cash flow is explicit, they're like, but I don't have two million, right? So it goes to Aga Naira that two million. So what are some of the mistakes that you've seen township property entrepreneurs making when it comes to either acquiring the property, even managing the property and ultimately sometimes even struggling to offload their property. So I guess we need to start here. Property investment is like any investment, right? If you're looking for an empty and share, you're looking for two things. You're looking for it to appreciate in value, right? And you were looking for a source of income, dividends and capital. So those are the two components to it. So in property investment, you're looking for and I think in order to be able to sell it on for able to be able to grow, to hear it or leverage it again, you are looking for those two fundamentals, capital appreciation kind of like that growth, the value growth and you're looking at getting an income. But how do businesses do that by reinvesting and maintaining that asset and kind of growing it? So that is absolutely important. And you're listing that as one of the biggest mistakes that potential clients do, people who come to Omastandia and say, we have this asset, I would like to get some sort of money from it. That is the basics. So how do you do that? And I think there's a couple of things. I understand those building rights are absolutely important. So make sure that you have approved plans, you know? Cutting corners in that does not necessarily assist you in creating a long-term sustainable, sustainable too. Also don't just sit out all the income that you can and strip it dry, but also reinvest in that property, maintain it, make it look livable, make it look good and make it look attractive. If you have done those couple of things that we spoke about earlier on, then maintaining it is absolutely important. And a lot of our clients miss that or potential clients miss that in the market of making that property management. So minding your business is actually important. Understanding who lives there. Understanding, you know, being able to give the right people, enabling them to give there the right kind of tenants you are yo-vating is absolutely great. And then as I mentioned, it's not necessarily passive. You need to be active. You need to understand and mind your business in that way. So holding rights, understanding the building, planning, regulations, making sure you're compliant in that property management, minding your business and knowing that it is an investment at the end of the day. So you have to mind the two parts of the equation. We are taking your questions and comments this evening as we're looking at how landlords are transforming the township market. I'm speaking to Oskar Nisei-Wombartos, a financial impact analyst at Tuft 21. We've got, oh, how it gets on on our Facebook page, us saying, talk about the mortgage payments. Do we know how Tuft structures their interest rates? Imagine borrowing 15 million at the time. Would you be expected to pay seven plus? I'm guessing that's 7% as well. So I think speak a bit about the, I think the finance side of things. I mean, we know that obviously the loan term won't be 20 years, so a bit about the loan term and the way that you look at interest. None of the things that we often tip our views at home who would typically be buying your single units and building up their portfolio is of course negotiating with your bank around interest rates. But the moment you're interacting with Tuft 21 or Mustang, you're even tough, it's a commercial building. It isn't a residential building the way you would just sort of buy an apartment. So can you just talk to us a bit about the interest rates and of course the payment period? Yeah, so absolutely. So the interest rates or kind of discussion and the tenant kind of discussion really find themselves in the existence of what kind of finance do you have and what type of finance. So usually when you talk about this, people are a little bit abrasive about where we sit, right? So you have your normal mortgage which is really at that prime rate and it's looking and underwriting your personal cash flows. They go and you ask for your bank slip or your statement from your employer and they take that and appraise it on that. Whereas commercial finance is a whole different animal, right? And the counterfactual is the financing that we find in the township which is 26, 30% unsecured finance, non-specific and really, really high levels of that, right? And also using your own equity is quite expensive as well because your return on equity or return on equity in that kind of setting is also north of 17% if you want to have a good return and beat inflation. So almost any basically prices at a prime rate, a jibar linked to a prime rate which is basically would be prime plus 4.5% in the township market. And then we then provide a 15 year long term, right? Which is absolutely great for cash flow and really softens that, right? So commercial banks or the normal commercial term would be at around the prime plus level and also generally in the seven year mark which is not so great for cash flow. So that's basically our offering. So it's slightly on the expensive side but I think as you're pointing out it also becomes a question of is it expensive relative to what we're finding sort of big financiers? We know that some of the banks sometimes don't have an appetite for the kinds of projects that a property entrepreneur would want to embark on in a township. So they finance you if you're just buying a house and you're going to be living there but obviously Mastandi is you're very likely wanting to build the back rooms in that particular property as opposed to just you're not buying a house to live in. So I think the big thing with the for property entrepreneurs are potentially looking at accessing the funding is the numbers need to fundamentally make sense. And I think this is probably one of those things we preach it all the time, a lot. I mean, we always say, run your numbers, run your numbers and even go to the extent of being able to highlight these are the kinds of numbers that we're talking about and be prudent also in your projections. Cause I think, and I'm actually keen to hear from you and say, well, when you're dealing with the different township entrepreneurs, how prudent are they in their projections around the income that they'll collect? Cause I tend to find property investors in general across markets, not just in the township space but even in suburban areas tend to overestimate how much they'll be collecting per annum and they tend to have projections for 100% occupancy. And of course, we know that that's not the case, right? You almost need to budget for some time when you're not at 100% but unfortunately people don't do this. So how well are they running their numbers? Are they budgeting for instances where they may have some vacancies in place? Yeah, so this is when the financial visibility becomes absolutely key for you to run through. So as part of our appraisal, we run through a really tight model that gives you 15 year look on where you need to stand and we provide against all of these sensitivities with whether it's an interest rate hike, whether it is a bad day to a vacancy level. But what we try to do, especially when it comes to how do you determine what are your rentals is look at where the market is sitting, right? Look at what the market is sitting and try and link the two, the market and your product and the quality of your product, right? And on that basis looking, we would look internally in our own portfolio comparables around that area, how much income do they generate? And we would like to be absolutely conservative. If you can achieve it, absolutely, that's your upside. But when you're starting with kind of projecting incomes market is absolutely key. Make sure that it can cover and service all your and understand also your cost to income ratio. Understand your cost per unit on that fine level. Understand how much does it take for me to keep a unit running and provide for that and be absolutely conservative as much as possible and we do that as well. And then we run, we have a real comprehensive model that runs a 15 year look and we would love entrepreneurs to come to our offices. We sit there and we look at that. And then on that basis be able to say what is actually a sustainable amount of money that we can lend you. And also what is now like a sustainable business of value size that you can then start looking at in terms of your portfolio or your first property or your development. I think it's actually just such a crucial thing that you've just highlighted as going to say is for property investors who are at home one of the things that I've even suggest you do even when you're probably not quite ready to take the jump engaging with, you know, it's going to say those colleagues whether it's at my standee or even, you know tough or tough 21 really does have you thinking about we'll call it commercial property commercial residential property from a fundamentally different perspective. So even the breakdown that you want to be able to understand the cost of, you know, one unit. So when you're thinking, well, it's already me has, you know, eight units, I've built I'm a double story, you know, modern apartments that I'm going to be renting out for anything between 1.5 to 2.8 for instance. And I think oftentimes we don't get to the point of understanding that cost per individual unit, right? And the cost of when there's a vacancy what does that actually do to the bottom line? Not just this month, but over a certain period. And I think a lot of us don't quite look at the property investment from that perspective. And if anything, just going through the process of engaging with, you know, your colleagues and your standing has you thinking about, you know your property from a fundamentally different perspective. So you're not just thinking, well, I've got these eight units and I know that I want them to gross 20,000 rands and they're in a great location. I'm automatically going to get it. My monthly bond payment, for instance, or loan payment if you had built on loan is 10,000. Therefore I'm netting 10K. You look at it from a different perspective. So, and I think one of the great traits really with property investing is you need to be able to break down your property investment to that granular level as much as possible. And I think many people, you know, sometimes not at that level but what I appreciate a lot is that you walk the path with them to be able to help them get to that stage. So it's not a... I would love to just talk about what we bring to the table as kind of like an Umastandi Tuft 21 offering. And that is not just to the property entrepreneurs because I think we really believe in the impact that we then bring across the board. So to other stakeholders as well, right? And that would be one, this access to commercial finance as a tool of growing your portfolio, not limited by your personal income is absolutely important for those who want to build a really good property portfolio. Also, the affordable housing market, which is a gap market that is not really catered to by the social, by government, by, you know, social housing that or subsidized housing but bringing that to the market and assisting small-scale developers to do that. And also one thing that we absolutely proud of is our training and mentorship program, which is a formalized program which basically takes you from financial literacy all the way down to how to run a property and simulates that for unsophisticated developers, we have opportunities and a spotted opportunities. And also what we then do during construction, we give you a grace period in which you can go and construct your property. We give you a later period and then you start servicing from the cash flows, right? But one of the great things that our entrepreneurs have really enjoyed is the work that they have with our project review consultants, which are individuals who are made to assure the quality of property or the quality of the finishes and quality of the product at the end of the day, but really can assist you and walk you from a step-by-step way of how do you go through your construction? A lot of our entrepreneurs who have not gone through, I guess, construction ever have gleaned a lot from those and are now ready for the second product. One entrepreneur whom I absolutely love has already started looking at other opportunities and noting the things that were pitfalls in the previous project. He has already started engaging with our personnel, with our staff, with our consultants, with our property, with our portfolio managers around what are the things, going through an OTP and understanding what's going on, they're going through a construction strategy or BOQ and seeing where the problems are. And that is a mixture through the whole offering that Umba Stanley then brings against to the market and kind of ensures that repeat business and that growth on the long-term. And then what we then proud ourselves in is that stimulation of local economies, right? So we hire contractors that are based in the township, right, and one of the great things with this entrepreneur that I spoke about, she then was able to, in the 14 units that she created, she saw a little spot opportunity. She lives in a corner, there's a garage in front of opening a car wash slash restaurant, why? And that is generating a large percentage of the cash flow of the overall project for herself. And she's taking that reinvesting into the residential property and looking for new opportunities to grow that portfolio and trying to do that. So there's a lot of opportunity of having this residential and associated commercial spaces that diversifies your income, right? So the commercial space was shut during lockdown and then there was money from the residential space. The residential space, if there's a vacancy, there's a bit of cash flow coming through from this car wash in that area. So maximizing all of those opportunities. And it stimulates the local economy, it grows our entrepreneurs and we're quite proud of our fiscal impact, right? And we are taking these properties, infrastructures, some state equity there, you know, are these growing the property value of that and then contributing to the rate, right? Also changing the little culture that's in the townships, maybe it's just a couple of more individuals or whatever the case, people not paying rates, but paying rates in taxes and contributing back to the fiscal so that there's more investment coming in roads and all of that amenities. And then also job creation and that overall improvement of livelihoods. These are places I grew up, you grew up in the township as I grew up in the township as well. So going back and finding these great, good quality accommodations is absolutely a joy for me and something I am proud of in my young career. You know, as Glenecego, you and I have run over our time, even saw Howard McEthan say that we need an hour to this evening, what I'm going to promise, I'm going to bring Glenecego back. And the reason why I want to bring Glenecego back for even one of these other colleagues is we really do want to then get a sense of, you know, some of the learnings that I think as a must-tend you sharing with your entrepreneurs and with various people who are obviously coming for funding because I think if anything, it also opens up our eyes to what the road ahead is looking like. So a bang-a-bang to you might still be in the, you know, thinking through it's stage, not really ready to make that leap and that's fine. I think we recognize that property really is one of those things that you're able to take your time with and you're doing your research as much as possible. I just want to go through some of the last few comments this evening. I want to say very quickly, commenting to Umata Shingange saying, she's so beautiful, I wondered that she attended class yesterday. I can confirm I was in class yesterday and, you know, my fellow students can attest to it because we are watching, we're live all the time in class, our cameras are even on. So we can't even do one of those things when you're in the Zoom and you're sort of passively listening in the background. Umou Rosenzwanen saying, in my opinion, Gasi is ideal for smaller units to rent out. Depending on the area, one can get a steady tenant, but rentals are low and Gasi property values have skyrocketed over the year. One would really have to work their numbers to see if purchasing property at Gasi is an investment. I see all the great comments that you are sending through our way. Thank you very much for all the compliments. I'm, we're going to end this conversation here. We're going to bring back Ust-Gunnysevo because I can see him and I can go on. I think one of the big things about the township market and particularly because of the work that Amastani and Tufton 1 is doing is that there's so much learning that as viewers at home, we're able to get from, you know, the experience that you obviously have working with various entrepreneurs in townships. And I think it's also just about us getting a better understanding of the best practices for that market. So Ust-Gunnysevo, we're going to leave it here this evening. We're going to coordinate and see when we can have you back on the show because the viewers at home are already calling for it. They can see that we've run over time and really do want to have a part two of our conversation. So thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you, Zama, for having us. Please, with any entrepreneurs or developers, if you are just maybe wanting to look at and explore opportunities from, I think the township offers a great value for property investment. I think there's the yields there, fantastic in comparison. And there's a lot of potential growth there. So please come visit our offices, 25 MS-Hoff, visit our in Bromfontein, visit our website, tuft21.co.zde, and you'll be able to, you know, pick up and we can then set up meetings and have a chat and we would love to chat to you and see if we could back you in your property journey. So thank you very much, Zama and Donga, for having us. And that is Ustini Sa Wombarta, was a financial and impact analyst at Tuft21. We have shared their content details down below. So if you want to reach out to them, do so. I promise we will have them back on the show because I think the township property market is one that a lot of us are watching and keeping track of. Many of us are either still living in townships or perhaps may have family living in the townships and want to find various ways to have those properties be income generating properties as much as possible. Well, that's it for myself for Zama and Donga Kumar with us this evening on the Private Property Podcast. It has been a pleasure to be with you. Thank you very much for watching. I know we've overstayed our welcome. I'll be back on your screens on Monday evening at 7 p.m. The Home Shoppers Show with Chad is up next at 8 p.m. Until then, hope you stay home and staying safe.