 So, welcome everybody to another episode of the Nonprofit Show. This is a really cool time for us. I'm super excited because today's guests live in the world that I live in and that's all about board relationships, board work, and it's also a magical time for us because it's part of Nonprofit Power Week. So, this week is dedicated to a single thought and track. We only do this a handful of weeks a year and so this is a really amazing thing. We're super excited to welcome Rob Gein, who is a trustee of the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption, but he's more than a trustee and so we're going to talk a little bit about that. Of course, Rita Sornan, president and CEO of the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption. Welcome back my friend. Thank you. Good to be back with you. Oh my gosh. This is really going to be an interesting, interesting conversation and I can't wait to dig into it. But before I do, I want to let everybody know that I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. My trustee co-host, Jarrett Ransom, is off today but she'll be rejoining us shortly, the Nonprofit Nerd CEO of the Raven Group. Again, this is another edition of Nonprofit Power Week and we have amazing sponsors that allow us to do this. Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, Be Generous, Fundraising Academy at National University, Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Thought Leader and the Nonprofit Nerd. Our sponsors are with us no matter what we talk about. They never direct our content. They really empower us to have conversations that can be uncomfortable and maybe even contrary to what they do and what they support. So this is a really magical thing for us and I've said magic like three times already this morning. Hey, again, if you want to catch up on one of our 700 episodes, you want to review this episode or you want to share it with somebody, you can easily do that. Find us on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV and Vimeo. And now we're also on podcasts. So our most recent episodes throughout the year, you can queue us up wherever you like to consume your content. Okay, Rita Sornan, you've been with us now, CEO and President of the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption. It's been riveting to hear what you've had to say. Every time I talk with you, I'm inspired and I learned something new. And today we thought it'd be really interesting to bring on Rob Gein, who's a member of your board and have a really interesting conversation about what that looks like. But Rob, you're no just normal trustee, workday guy. You are now the vice chair and what does that mean come the first of the year? Well, hopefully it means that I'll be moving up and replacing the current chair. Okay, and how long have you been in the vice chair position? So I've been in the vice chair position for two years after being on the board earlier as just a regular board member. And how many years have you been on the board in total? So I, Rita's going to correct me because she's the historian, but I think it is six years. Yeah, absolutely. Six years. Okay. Have you served on other boards or other specifically national boards? Yes, yes, I have. Okay. So do you feel like that service allowed you to do, to kind of move up the chain where you are? Or could you kind of share with us what that looks like? Yeah, I mean, I think being a board member is very different depending on the organization that you're working with. You know, the most extreme examples are you're on a board where the CEO views the board as a rubber stamp, and they're just trying to, you know, get their opinions fulfilled. On the opposite extreme, you have a board that is not confident in their leadership. And so they feel like they have to get involved in a lot more than they traditionally should. Now, at the day of Thomas Foundation, I'm, you know, privileged to have a very strong organization, financially very well off, very stable. And so as a board member, you would never think about micromanaging. So the nice sort of middle, which is where I would hope most boards would be, is that the CEO views the board as a strategic advisor. That's a comfortable role to be in rather than completely ignored or micromanaging. Rita, do you use a board liaison? A technical? Personally? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We, when we recruit board members, we've got a unique structure at the Dave Thomas Foundation production, given our relationship with the Wendy's company. But as we recruit members, whether they're from the Wendy's side or the public side, we're always looking at what skills, what expertise is it that can complement the staff or fill a gap, quite honestly, that the staff may have. And I can give you a very specific example with Rob. In another life, Rob was a researcher and still maintains that, certainly that skill and that expertise. He's also a skilled policy person. So as we looked at and utilized Rob before he was on the board in some of the research, as we were talking about yesterday, what we realized is that became a critical piece for us to be able to have a researcher on the board that we could turn to as a liaison, as an advisor, as someone that could look at the research that we were doing and making sure that we were doing it in the way that he thought, based on what we knew of his skills, that he thought would be of benefit to the foundation. So absolutely. And we do that with a number of board members as liaisons to the senior leadership team as just thought leader liaisons to us. Right. On those same lines, I've got to ask you this question. Have you sat back as a board and determined what those gaps are and articulated them and put them like in a strategic plan? Or is it more about how you navigate the ecosystem and saying, wow, I met so and so and they would be great. Or do you do both? Yes, both. Yeah. And in fact, it created, you know, that classic matrix grid a few years ago that said, here's all the skills that we have. There's some gaps that we might fill in need, but fill in need. But quite honestly, as you're out doing your job, you also run across people that you think they would be a brilliant addition. They understand governance. They understand the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption. They would be a brilliant addition to the board. So it's sometimes fitting people into spaces and it's other times going out and recruiting for those empty spaces. And how many board members do you have? Could you talk us through what you do use an executive committee? I mean, how many executive team members or executive board members do you have? What does that look like? We do. We have, including the president CEO, who is also a member of the board, we have 24 board voting board members. We have active standing committees, including an executive committee, through which I think typically with all boards, if there are decisions that need to happen, absent a board meeting, things route through the executive committee. But we have quarterly meetings of all the committees. So there's an executive committee, an organizational effectiveness committee, a marketing and fundraising committee, all included in the same committee, an audit and finance committee, and a board governance and corporate development committee. So those five committees meet quarterly and most of the activity happens at that committee level. And then each of the committee chairs reports out at the board meeting. Right. We also have a system of ad hoc as we need it committees. So, for example, we have an investment advisory committee that's made up of outside experts to make sure that the dollars that we are investing are well managed. We have a research advisory committee again made of outside non board member experts that help us, as we were talking about before, with issues of research. So very active committee level, and it's up to the board chairs from the board and, and frankly, the CEO to make sure that those committees are on task, that they have agendas, that there are minutes, that the board reviews all of the minutes and has access to all of that information. And it makes a very dynamic quarter throughout the quarter leading up to a board meeting rather than having a two day board meeting where everything is discussed. Right. Absolutely. Rob, as you are now stepping more into going to be a board management level, I've got to ask this question because I see this a lot throughout our sector. And that is, are you going to be OK with moving your board role from that as a general board member to like running those meetings and being more of that manager? Or do you see, do you see that issue coming about or is it just going to be the same? What are your thoughts on this? So I think that's to the earlier point you were making, Julia, about why board members tend to leave. And that is, where is the fit? And so, you know, we was talking about recruiting board members for specific purposes. I am part of a wonderful board that includes a number of Wendy's executives who have deep, deep expertise in marketing, in finance and other things that, frankly, I'm not an expert on. And so I know what my role is. I know what I can contribute. And I think the worst thing that a board can do is recruit people without being clear. What is it that we want from you? Sometimes you're recruiting someone, let's be honest, because they have ties to people with lots of resources. And the job is primarily one of bringing in resources. Other times you are looking for expertise, you know, we have a weak HR department and not at Wendy's or at Thomas Foundation, but in an organization that may be lacking, they want to recruit a board member specifically who has that function. As Rita mentioned, I have a background in research, which was not something that other board members had a deep knowledge of. So I knew on day one, Rita wasn't asking me to go out and raise money. She wasn't asked me to be a marketing expert. And frankly, managing the board when everyone knows their function and knows the purpose of everyone's committed to the vision. It's a pretty simple task. The Robert's rules of order are not hard to learn. I got to ask one aspect of this, too. Are you using a board portal, Rita? I mean, does your team and so you really move to a digital component of all this and are what's the percentage of people showing up IRL in real life to your meetings now? We have a great percentage. I mean, I am in awe, I would say, and over the pandemic, of course, we moved to virtual meetings and now we keep that Zoom portal open for meetings if people can't make it for whatever reason. They may not feel comfortable traveling yet. But with Zoom, we get nearly 100 percent attendance. Even in person, I think we get 90 to 95 percent attendance in person. I'm in awe because we don't pay board members to travel and we're a national organization. They travel on their own dime and they come. So again, I think it speaks to the commitment of this board, the passion of this board and the understanding that we're trying to use their time wisely. We don't want to overuse their time, but we want to make sure that they feel empowered, that they feel included and that they feel an important part of this mission. Well, and it's an incredibly important mission. So you I mean, I can understand the call to arms to say, look, you know, if you're going to invest in bringing somebody onto the board and navigating that you want that to be reciprocated, which kind of leads us to our next question. And this is kind of one of those dicey things. Is the prestigiousness of going onto a national board? What that means? I know personally when I'm out and about, I'm amazed at the number of people that will be like, Julia, can you get me on a national board? And I'll be like, what? I mean, literally this happens all the time. It helps with your career. It can help develop business contacts. Sure, there's passion, but there's prestige. And I'm wondering kind of like, how do you navigate that? You know, do you talk about it? Or is it just one of those things that's there? Yeah, I'll default to to Rob speak. Yeah, Rob, I'd love both of your reactions. Rob, tell me what you think about this. So being on a board can be a lot of work, depending on how seriously you take it and what your role is. And so, yes, there will be people who just want to pad their resume and included. Those are not necessarily the people I hope we would be recruiting. I am honored to be part of the Dave Thomas board because of the legacy of Dave Thomas. And I think that every board member, at least in the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption, feels that every day. And so the prestige is a responsibility, you feel. I will I will say this. It's this is maybe a little funny. The Dave Thomas Foundation gives out some swag with the with the Dave Thomas logo on it. And every year I will take it back and put it in my office and people will see it when they come in to meet with me. And they'll say, oh, why do you have that? And it gives me an opportunity to advance the mission of the foundation. And it says, look, I'm very proud of the cost that I'm that I'm supporting. And that's why I'm willing to donate my time and effort. And I'll also add, Julie, Julia, what comes with, I think, a position on a national board is not only perhaps the prestige or the association with a cause larger than maybe regional or local, but also comes risk, right? We're very good, I think, here at compliance, at transparency, at brand protection and all of those things that a national organization should be. But if something happens, it happens big. And so board members take on that risk responsibility as well. Absolutely. And, you know, in all of our board trainings, I would say I always call that the kiss and cry moment, because when we we do our trainings and we talk about that, people are oftentimes, I would say 50 percent of the room is absolutely shocked. They're like, what? You mean I could be involved in, you know, a lawsuit? Or it's like, hello, yeah, your name's on the 990. That's right. And your home address, you know, I mean, it's a really interesting thing that, especially with the prestige of board service for some people, I think they kind of don't understand that maybe until it's too late. And so especially in your environment where you're working with such a tough issue that involves life and death, it's a little bit different of serving on a cultural organization. You know, I was used to say, you know, I served as a trustee of an opera company, you know, no one dies except on the stage, right? I mean, so you have to understand how this this really can become problematic or it's ultimately it is your responsibility. I want to switch gears a little bit, but in some ways, it's right along these same lines. And that's one of the things that we hear CEOs talk about. And that's the relationship between the leadership team and the board committees, you know, looking at a partnership issue. So let's start with you, Rita. Do you have a policy or a directive or is it just something that you communicate with how board members interface with your leadership team versus going directly through you? What does that look like? No, it's a great question. It's something that's, I think, always evolving in organizations based on the personality, the structure, the tone of the organization. Certainly, the CEO needs to be kept aware of communications between board members and senior leadership or anyone else. We don't want to catch anybody off guard. We don't want a directive coming to a staff member that the CEO doesn't know about. But we've worked really hard the past few years to make sure that senior leadership is represented at each committee in their appropriate discipline so that the senior vice president of marketing and communications also attends and presents at the marketing fundraising committee, you know, and down on the CFO attends the audit and finance and presents at audit and finance. So there is a direct relationship with board members through committee work and through that kind of information that needs to flow from staff to board. We also have increased presentations at full board meetings of senior leadership because part of this is also let's face it about succession planning and making sure that all of the senior leaders have an opportunity to have face time with board members so the board members can see the skills and the assets. And we have such a dynamic, such a strong senior leadership team. I want to make sure that board members are aware of the work that they're doing. This isn't about the CEO getting everything done. This is about the CEO in partnership with a dynamic senior leadership team. So we have, but I would say it's been in the past five years we've done a simply much better job of that as we've grown than we were doing previously. So I'm not intimidated by direct contact between board members and senior leadership. It's just I kind of always need to be aware, particularly if a directive is coming at them. Now, Rob, do you have that senior leadership team at your board meetings? Oh, absolutely. And I will say that much of my work during the day focuses on children who have been abused and neglected and the systems that care for them. And so I have reason to be involved with a number of the leaders at the foundation. And anyone who's worked for a nonprofit feels a little intimidated by the board. And so as a board member, you have to be aware of that. And you don't want to be having a conversation and be thinking, well, there's gonna treat me like anybody else. If I ask for something, they're going to rush to get it done. And so you have to almost apologize and say, treat me like anybody else or they will be very concerned. But having those interactions can also be quite effective in being able to make connections. If you work in a similar field, being able to identify other organizations or other leaders who may be an asset. But doing it in a respectful way and keeping obviously Rita and the chief executive informed as essential. Well, and I would imagine it's so much easier today when everything's done digitally, just to see the CEO, hello, it should just be kind of a pro forma. This just popped into my head and Rita, maybe this is a question for you. Does your senior leadership team have access to your board portal or is that just for the board? Right now it's just for the board, only because there are times when there are confidential conversations or a matter of minutes that is not for public display even with senior leadership team. But I think it's one of again, one of those evolution. We only started using a board portal maybe six or seven years ago. We just switched to a new one. So I think it's one that's in evolution as well. Well, I think that the portals themselves are changing and getting better. And so I can see where that kind of, I know that on the moving forward, a lot of them will be gated differently for trustees versus board members versus senior leadership. I mean, there'll be other things like that. So yeah, interesting. Well, this is a big question because it really changes the way things are. And we don't have a lot of time, but I want to kind of get into something that we've kind of nipped at around the edges. And that is advocating for your cause as a board member. Rob, I loved your talk, your use of the idea for the swag. I thought that was like, okay, that is just great. And I'm wondering like how you continue to advocate for the mission. I know that this lives in your workday world, but how do you also kind of keep those guardrails defined and still say this is what I'm doing? Yeah, let me answer that in two ways because I don't want to think that the advocating for the cause happens outside the board because part of being a board member from my perspective is being a friendly but critical ear, trying to identify potential blind spots. I'm sure Rita and her team would much prefer to hear some criticism from friendly fire than from outside. So even an organization that's working exceptionally well, if you are focused on the cause, you want to make sure that you're having as big an impact as broad a scale as possible. And so that's being constructively dissatisfied at all times and trying to say, so what's next? What's next? So that happens in the board meeting. If all I cared about was checking a box, those conversations wouldn't happen. And then when I'm outside of the board meeting, I'm constantly hearing things that I'm saying, oh, well, in my day-to-day life, that may not be important. But when you put the Wendy's or the Dave Thomas name on it, oh, there's an idea. And so sharing emails with other board members or with Rita as things come up, links to things that she might be interested in, that's something that I'm doing all the time. So this is a trick question and I don't know if you can answer this, but how many hours a week do you think that you spend on this board work? And then part B of that question is, how is that gonna change when you move from vice chair to chair? Yeah, so like everything, it varies tremendously. There will be weeks that go by where I do very, very little and then weeks where it is almost a half-time job. And obviously the number of committees that you involve yourself depending on what position on the board. When I went from being a regular board member to being the vice chair, I then became part of the executive committee, which meets four times a year. Then when you become, if you actually take on chair, the interaction between myself and the CEO and with compliance officers will be that much higher. So the work obviously does go up and that's a consideration. And what you want is to identify someone who's not just willing to do it, but eager to jump in and do that type of work. And who can do that type of work, who's trained up. Now you see yourself moving in to this position. Correct me if I'm wrong, Rita, you said in the green room chatter that the terms are two years. Yes, yeah, officer terms are two years. So then, and then how many terms can rub or whomever comes up be reelected? He can be reelected for a second to your term in that position. He also carries a three-year term on the board. Okay, wow, okay. Do you have an emeritus board? Were you move off your? We don't right now. We had, when Mrs. Thomas was still alive, she was a member of the board after Mr. Thomas passed away and then she moved into an emeritus position. So we've had individuals in emeritus positions. We tossed around because, and again, early on, we didn't have terms. Everybody stayed on the board forever and that's been an evolution as well. And so we finally made that evolution where we begin to lose really excellent people off the board because they term out. And so it's now an evolving conversation. Should we have some kind of past president's position or emeritus position for board members as they choose? We're not there yet, but it's a conversation. Yeah, it's, I think a big conversation and a positive one. I think the emeritus board concept for me, it just allows you to keep those champions with you closer. And to Rob's point about advocating and sharing your passion, you can give them an update and it can be social, it can just be pro forma. It can work a lot of different ways, but to lose. Yeah, that's something I think is a growing issue for so many people. While this has been great, I told you Rob, our time was gonna fly. Even Rita said, oh yeah, it goes my fast. But Rita Sornin, president and CEO of the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption has been with us again today. And Robert Gein, and you know, you said a funny thing. Only your mother would call you Robert when you were in trouble. Robert, Rob Gein, trustee vice chair. Hey, I'm really, I wanna witness to you. Thank you for your service. Thank you for navigating up and taking on this mantle of leadership, heavy as the head that wears the crown. And I think you're gonna be great. I hope you get some rest over the holidays so that you can jump into it January 1st. Thank you, it's an honor and I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, I think it's really important. You know, we need more leaders and we need to be training up younger leaders so that we keep that pipeline. And it seems to me, Rita, that you've done a beautiful job of helping your organization navigate through that. Again, this has been Nonprofit Power Week in partnership with the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption. It's really a special time for us at the Nonprofit Show. We don't do this, but maybe only four or five times a year. And so to find somebody that we wanna get a deep dive with on a series of questions is really powerful for us or viewers and our listeners. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I'll be joined back with my co-host, Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd, she'll be with us. Again, we wanna thank all of our presenting sponsors who are with us day in and day out. We will finish the year with more than 700 episodes. We've done this day in and day out five days a week. We're like the post office. We only take off federal holidays. So we are blown past our seventh 100 episode. And thanks to Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, Be Generous, Fundraising Academy at National University, Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Thought Leader and the Nonprofit Nerd. They've allowed us to really move through these amazing conversations and we will continue to do so even more. Throughout this week, you can join us on this conversation and go back through our archives. There's definitely a thread through our content, but definitely some new and different things, no matter the size of your organization. I think there's some gems in here that have been really amazing to hear. Rita, I'm fascinated with you. I think, oh my God, it's the Dave Thomas Foundation, but you have issues and concerns just like the smallest nonprofit out there. Absolutely, all the time. And that's why I'm really lucky because I have such a supportive, dynamic, talented board that just surrounds me every day. Yeah, it's amazing. Rob, thank you again for your work. Thank you for joining us on the Nonprofit Show. I say we rejoin with you maybe after your first year of service and get you on the Nonprofit Show and just hear about your lessons and advice that you might have for other folks because it's really a powerful voice to learn from. And again, thank you for your service. My pleasure, and I look forward to continuing the conversation. Absolutely. Hey, everybody, as we like to end every episode, we want to remind ourselves, our guests, our viewers, our listeners, even our team here on the other side of the camera to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow.