 Hey guys, we know the topic of this show is another UFO show and we want you to know that we're not going down a UFO track with this show This was just a great opportunity for us to interview Tom Reed about his story in the Berkshire's UFO case and for us to talk to you about our Interviewing technique why we asked questions the way we did and to analyze Tom's body language We hope you'll enjoy it as much as we did and if you look in the notes about the show You'll find all the things we reference in our introductions about projects We're working on websites to us ways to find our books. Thanks for joining and we'll see you next time Now you know they're easy to get all we got to do is that hold on Somebody comes up and they go do you want a tiger cub and you go? Why not? Oh, yeah, what is it? Would cause somebody not to realize that they grow much bigger I would buy one if I could rent it and just give it back Give it back. Yeah, sure. There's your business What is it about somebody that go doesn't recognize it will get so much bigger and it's a predator Yeah, there's the problem. It has teeth the size of your fingers, right and you are in the food chain Yeah, I can pet shark in my pool, please, right? I just obviously go so it's it's it's that size now and I keep my mind instantly goes Okay, it'll get a lot bigger. Yeah, I'm not interested That somebody would look at this thing and just go that will remain the same forever. I don't get Oh, how cute. Yeah, yeah, I got it. All right. So you ready? Yeah, there we go All right well today we're gonna go back and we'll look again at some of the things we did with Tom Reed from the Netflix special the Berkshire's UFO and what we did was We we just watched him and we asked him questions We didn't go in and say oh is he being truthful is he being deceptive whatever we're sort of showing the people who are watching or interested in that How we go about doing that and getting information from someone. So now what we'll do is we'll go back through some of these Sections that we saw interesting things happening afterwards and we'll talk about what we're seeing there Let's talk about we're gonna talk a little bit about memory and bias Greg why don't you talk about that for a second? Yeah chase You've got a lot of stuff around bias with the one thing to remember is the way we are successful in life is by finding patterns Our brains are fantastic pattern finders and the way your brain operates is every time you run electricity through those circuits That circuit gets more and more pronounced And so one of the biggest problems you have in the intelligence world and chase and I can talk forever and bore you to death with Intelligence cycle, but one of the biggest problems you have is failure in the analyst side Because they can't imagine that something is possible when we had 9-11 happened Nobody believed that was a handful of guys who worked this thing out got into the US and had that much success The same thing has happened generation after generation because we can't imagine that something's possible The role of a good interrogator is not to judge not to figure out where there's true Well to figure out where there's true and you believe what the person's telling you But not to figure out what it means The analyst's role is to figure out what it means Analysts work very tightly with Indicators and those indicators mean something and so they jump to conclusions and they constantly have to be have those Conclusions addressed and you have to take away that bias that they built in you do it every day in life And then the last thing I'll leave you with is and we train people to interrogate Outside the United States and other cultures. They typically spend two years Learning a foreign language with natives of that foreign language to learn not to think like themselves and to Project on the people from that culture, but to better understand how the culture works It's a very important part of what we do in trying to suspend all of that bias where their confirmation rather and chase I'll pitch it over to you to talk for a minute about some of those biases Sure, so one I think that we see when we're watching a Body language video or watching something anything on YouTube is something called the bandwagon effect and This is if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump off the bridge too? So we're more likely to do what the other Primates in our tribe are doing and the next one is confirmation bias This happens especially true with politics and if you think of Apple versus Android This is confirmation or what's another word for this is choice support bias They're technically two different ones, but if I picked an Apple phone I'm more likely to see faults in the Android users phone and if I have an Android I'm more likely to see faults in an Apple phone and see the good things about my own and Confirmation bias is pretty similar, but confirmation bias is something that makes us only seek out Things that agree with our own opinion We only click on the political headlines that demonize the people we don't like or the ones that champion the ones that were our personal favorite Another thing that this can really have a negative effect on especially as us or you watching some of these debates coming up If I'm a Trump supporter, I'm more likely to see deceptive behavior in Joe Biden. All humans have bias We are none of us without bias if I love Joe Biden and I hate Trump Trump will look like a monster no matter how good he does on stage My brain is more likely to default to the negative side of things with Trump and more likely To champion and see the positive indicators of Biden and I'll talk about one more bias I think is really important and this is called bias bias This means that a person believes that their bias is so low that they're not biased at all which in itself is a bias and That leads us to a final discussion really quick here called the Dunning Kruger effect and The Dunning Kruger effect states that the less information someone has The more likely they are to assert that they have a wealth of knowledge on the subject And one of my famous quotes on the internet now is there's no one more certain than the guy who read three articles online And that is a good example of what the Dunning Kruger effect is. I've read a body language book I'm gonna go on LinkedIn and update my status to body language expert So we see Dunning Kruger in a lot of different ways, but I wanted to bring that up before this video because I Had a lot of beliefs going into it and I have to process that internally There's no vaccination against any of these biases. You can't go to a doctor's office and get a shot and get rid of this stuff It's built into our brain however, knowing that it exists and going into an interview or going into a video analysis We're knowing that the bias might be present and knowing that I might have some bias towards A or B is important to Getting rid of it or mitigating some of that and I also want to talk a little bit about memory Before we jump into this because we talked to Tom quite a bit about His memories and this happened a long time ago I'll tell you one fact about memory. That's pretty interesting that I thought was interesting Every time that you touch a memory if you access any memory from your life you edit that memory Permanently so if I think of a birthday party and then I I think why yeah, I think I got a bike that year The next time I think about it. I might think yeah I remember getting that bike and then it's a false memory That's how easily false memories can be created and if you want to watch a great talk about this There's a woman named Elizabeth Loftus who has a fabulous Ted talk about how easy it is for people to create false Memories especially in groups where all of the group is Coming from a same narrative and that and I thought that might play a part in this And that was something that I was aware of before we started talking to Tom One last note I would add to that before we hand this to mark It's not just that you edit it you edit it with your current Schema with the way your brain works now So you have the 40 year old memory and you're adjusting a nine year old's memory That's the problem with stories that are this old and that have been told over this many times and managed between a family So we need to say that mark. Sorry. We step a little bit on you for let's talk about bias Let me just add this one thing our brain is not a knowledge machine It's a best guess machine as as as Greg was saying it's making predictions based on patterns It can't make a prediction if it's never seen that pattern before and on the whole if it's never seen a pattern before It doesn't default to positives it defaults to negatives So it'll tend to have a negative bias usually around confusion When it hasn't got anything to predict off of and when it gets confused it tends to dig pretty deep in the Unconscious and often what many people have called the collective unconscious some of the very very old Stories that we have deep inside us that we've inherited over millennia So often when we see something that we can't make a quick prediction of we go Very very deep inside ourselves to come up with the answer the prediction What do we think that thing is? I just wanted to say that because it may be useful as we go through this interview with Tom Having some understanding of that possibility Scott I'll hand over to you Excellent. All right. Well, y'all have covered pretty much all of it So why don't we move on and we'll go right to our first video Then right here what we're gonna see is the part where we're baselining Tom or we're watching him Greg is Greg is the ones gonna ask him questions. We talked about how to approach this before we started So Greg would ask questions become friendly with him and have him talk about his childhood and some things that happened Then specifically get in one thing so as he's remembering something We're gonna get a look at how the things the body language He uses as he's actually remembering something that we know is true and that we know is happened So that's what we're gonna be seeing and as we go along we'll compare what we saw then to what we're seeing as the videos go along So that's what's gonna be happening. So let's take a look at our first video. Well, I I grew up in the Berkshires Southern Berkshires until I was about That's 18 years old My mother had a diner in town which is now renowned in the area and I grew up with horses and I Funny thing is when I had the horses I wanted a dirt bike or a mini bike and then I ended up getting a dirt bike And I wanted the horses back. So it's never greener Tom you and I share the horse thing we said yesterday. It's the only problem of the horses to eat when you're sleeping, you know This thing happened to you tell me a little bit about that horse Let folks get to know VR and what you did with your horse and that kind of stuff just like when I almost fell Yeah, yeah, okay. So I was riding in a horse show a 4h horse show in great guarantee which is was held at ski butternut and uh, yeah, I was probably I was nine and We were using a horse that I wasn't used to riding. It was a larger horse And when I put the saddle on it apparently it was gassy or whatever. So the stomach was a little bigger than normal And I was in a competition and I was going full speed I had a thing in a full gallop And all of a sudden the saddle started to slide off to the side of the horse I'm grabbing the main because I'm like this You know, I couldn't even stop the horse and there must have been 20 or 30 other horses And I was somewhat up front, you know, the better part of it and Yeah, by by the time um, I just felt these hands grab me and and slide it back up and took me out of the Out of the race, um, you know, that that was why we left Ski butternut and started heading home that night that we we saw this We were involved in what we were and Yeah, that scared me quite a bit. I didn't go on a horse for a while after that. I mean, I was actually shook up from that but uh, so uh, what with what? happened back in in Sheffield I I wanted a camera. My mother was like, what do you want for your birthday? Christmas or whatever it was and I told her I wanted a camera and Because if we ever saw this thing again, I was going to get a picture of it And so my mother got me one of those little Polaroids. We had to wait three minutes and you pulled the thing out and you watched, you know You ripped the paper off of it and da-da and And so that was kind of what believe it or not fueled my career because I Got into the photography club in Great Barrington high school and then I started shooting fashion runway in Hartford and then I became a stage manager for northeast concerts and I was working with some bands John Kay from Steppenwolf and And then I started shooting for sage Allen fashion shows, you know sage Allen, you know was a store of that in the New England area and um, I met Danny O'Gallow who was uh with penthouse form in New York City And I was trained on slide film and studio lighting and uh, so then I went to Miami and and over uh Probably about five or six years of shooting for other agencies. I opened up my own agency And it was quite successful and I had the five-year packaging campaign for those diapers and I was working on a lot of uh staffing a lot of the um girls and tv shows like CSI Miami and I became a One of the booking agents for the Miami Dolphins and had season tickets to that so Miami was kind of more my home than anywhere else until uh about 2006 when um, I decided to uh get a fresh start and move over to The Tennessee area which to me was more of a Warmer in New England so it kind of felt more home and that's kind of why I'm here That's the baseline that's that's what we're going to use from this moment on to start comparing to what what we're seeing And in this case what we're seeing is uh when he first begins You pay attention to you've always heard all that shoulder shrug the one shoulder that means they're lying They're not telling truth. That's what the absolutist will tell you that it shows deception Well, we're seeing him fire that thing off with almost everywhere. He says and we know what he's telling us is true So that automatically knocks that out of the way. So when we see that we can go ahead and say, ah, that doesn't mean much His illustrators, they're really big. They're going off. They're there his he's uh, Mark's truth plane. You can't see it because as the at the angle he's sitting But he's he's gesturing specifically with and he's using both hands a lot of times every eight when he sees something He'll go and he'll look at as he's telling you about it So we but Greg and Chase will get into the the eye movement part of it. They're eye accessing We're looking at also one thing to to to listen for Is the way he talks Here at the top He's talking he's talking a good volume because he's happy. He's proud. He's just he's just Met he's just meeting us really and seeing us and for the first time We're getting to know him and he's proud of it about being a kid and the things he's done He's talking about his horse. So he's he had great memories and It's important that you remember things as a child So you go back and we get a look at him when he's remembering something from when he was a little kid So you'll when you go back and listen to this again, listen to not only How he's saying thing saying things and what he's saying things but listen to the tone of his voice. It's very strong It's up front. It's it's loud. It's it's right there right there on you You know here you'll hear as it goes along you hear the volume gets get lower You hear the tone of his voice and by the tone, I mean the timbre is more You'll notice when greg is asking him questions Greg doesn't talk usually greg's like well, I'll do this and that but when you notice the way we talk to him We've all got little smiles on our faces and our voices are kind of like this when we talk to him And they're they're very pleasant and our voices are doing this because we're trying to keep him in a good mood And so so nothing will change you want to keep the the vibe pleasant. So it's good for him So he remains happy So that's so listen to our voices and watch how we act as well as we go through this But really pay attention to greg because by this time you know how he acts and you know how he sounds So you're actually seeing him engaged in An interrogation and trying to get information from someone and as he's presenting himself In this fashion, it's a lot different than when he's sitting here talking to you about what's about what we're watching So chase what he got That's going to be the new title of the show I think What is That was the top comment on the uh on the youtube video I think mark you're writing a great t-shirt. Yeah, what do you got chase a cup? chase what he got So we see that repetitive shrugging. That's great. We also see a lot of body narration, which is my Whatever to describe it. He's talking about grabbing on to the horse. He's talking about flinging off He's talking about hands grabbing him So all of this his body is helping to narrate the story We also see him in a natural state He looks up into his left To access these memories from childhood and that's one of the things that greg was doing there What does it look like when this man remembers something from that point of time in his life? And next we also see a long use of permissive language sort of kind of you know So asking for permission from greg to he wants greg to keep nodding as he's telling the story And we also see that his pronouns are self driven. I I I my me I remember I felt this and that was it. I'm going to give it as fast as I possibly could and that's it greg Yeah, so what I noticed is when things are they're handful of things his choice of words Like you said is kind of folksy and whatever he has gotten away with this whole life. I do the same thing But he while he's using pronouns like I and we The minute he gets something happening to him. He goes to passive voice. Did you notice that? When something has happened to him, I was grabbed not someone grabbed me He goes to passive every time and you'll hear that throughout this when it feels like he has been In some way victimized by this whole thing when he talks about going through the bridge and coming out the other side And everything changed. He's not talking about the atmosphere He's talking about the world changed that day when he says that kind of thing So pay attention to his passive voice the other one we talk about him moving his shoulder Part of that is him moving his shoulder part of it is and I like where you talk about body narration I call this illustrating and part of that is him illustrating with his left hand As his elbow is lying on the chair arm and it's causing his his shoulder to rise So pay attention. That's not just baseline. That's mechanics at some point The other one to start noticing when he's talking about something he did personally He narrates with his right hand. Have you noticed that? Pay attention when he goes to both hands. It's something big that happened Or when he's talking about someone else doing something his left hand is narrating So it's an interesting shift from what you see in most people because most people use one hand or the other And then finally You watch as we go through this thing You're right Scott. I'm trying not to be my usual direct hard-ass question. Excuse my English my direct question I'm asking in a very different way. In fact when I want to cut him off I ask a leading question. You'll notice I say did you will you are you those are not good questions to get information You're good questions to direct conversation and that's interrogation 101 and we'll stop there Mark we got yeah, so what I want you to notice is how he leans his Head on his hands and he's using all of his fingers to support that head And he's very very comfortable in this situation because he's telling a story that he's excited by as well And that's partly why you get this kind of shoulder shimmy that happens It's both shoulders going up and down. He's quite elated by this and you see some true smile You see some some some real kind of excitement about it And and his head is fully supported What I want you to watch is is further down the line as the questions become a little more tricky for him to answer He becomes more stressed this finger falls away Now this is quite hard to do because I now have to bring my Head off a little bit so I don't hurt my fingers and this muscle here is under stress Which may mean I'm trying to show you that I'm still relaxed But actually I'm not that relaxed anymore because I'm now having to put in some extra muscle activity so watch out for for that one Yeah, I totally concur with what everybody's being said massive illustrators there of being grabbed off the horse So he's a big physical storyteller Especially when it's a story that has happened to him. So big physical movements there What I also want you to To know from this is that he makes the This moment a defining moment of his life. He says I got a camera Specifically so I'd be able to photograph this thing again if it showed up and that Altered the rest of my life and that's why I became a fashion photographer and work with you know in Miami and This thing he says was a defining moment in his life So he frames how important the story is in this first moment That's all I got All right, wonderful. Everybody good Let's move on. Oh now this next one Let's pay attention to from what we just saw for what we all just explained Let's pay attention to how things have changed once he starts being asked Greg starts asking questions Let's pay attention to again his voice Let's pay attention to the volume of his voice is paid attention to his illustrators Everything as we're going along pay attention to how things change and his hand as well Because at some point in this he's going to start his whole hand goes on his head When the when the emotion starts starts building at this who are near a telephone pole And how far do you think she drove? Oh, maybe uh 30 yards 40 yards to the clearing just the other side of the tree Did you hear anything? No, I didn't hear anything any Burning scent smell anything else? No, nothing. It was I it was quiet. I mean we Matter of fact, it was almost dead quiet. It was almost too quiet Okay, near anything, you know, I mean it was like I've mentioned it was like being underwater. It was just like muffled and uh And you would have thought you would have heard something you would have heard birds you would have heard something nothing I mean it was dead silent and I could I was looking at this thing while it was dead silent And it was just like And as crazy as it sounds it seems like once we came off the other side that bridge things were changed I mean the atmosphere the Everything was just different Were you all talking to each other during this? Well, well that worked you a little separate be honest with you I don't remember but I'm sure we were because it was hot the windows were open My brother was sitting next to me. It was late. I almost got trampled. I had a A green ribbon and a brown ribbon, which I was pretty upset about and uh And so I'm sure we were but we were also tired um I I can't really remember but I can't imagine we weren't you know Hi greg Yeah, so this one there's nothing really really big. This is a nine year old memory That's been and tom will tell you and did tell us that he has backfilled many of the details because they've been sharing the story between his family for 50 years So there are going to be a couple of things in here that normally I would be very aggressive with questioning And I'll point those out when we get to them But in this when he's saying everything was different He's not talking specifically about The space around it. He's talking about the entire thing about how this whole thing worked When he's uncertain about how we're perceiving him. He's got a very nervous smirk pay attention to that because he does that Because he knows that he's talking to us. This is the into now. We're starting to ask hard questions We're starting to ask questions that give him an opportunity to tell us a fact If you noticed and chase you hit this dead on earlier his left eye accessing you as he's recalling his story Okay, we expect that from rote memory just like we saw in bob lasar when he was on rogan When you see the eyes moving to the left for rote memory, that's one thing But when you ask him a question about how far did you drive? I bet that question's not been asked in that fashion before and he accesses left memory as well Whether the memory is accurate whether the memory is something that he has touched 50 times in 50 years and is tainted Different story, but he's not deceptive. He's not masking. He's not covering his body language now has slowed down They're no longer these big sweeping movements. He's moving into a more emotional state and into a more He's telling us a story that he knows that we're going to be on top of so he starts to slow down his body language In fact, his cadence of speech has slowed if you pay attention. He's not big and boisterous. He's now slowing down I don't see deception. What I see is a story. He's told before maybe edited many times And he's going to tell us something later that you may or may not expect that he didn't think he was abducted by aliens And this piece is important that you pay attention to what's changing in him because he's telling you what he recalls or remembers That's it. So Yeah, as I was saying earlier on Um, when there's confusion we often go quite deep down. I want you to understand He's already started using this image of the bridge And one side of the bridge and the other side of the bridge and on the other side of the bridge It's a different world. We're not in kansas anymore on that other side of the bridge. Everything has changed What do we have underneath the bridge often underneath bridges in folklore? We have trolls We have things that other entities that are from dark places that will mess up our life That will stop us getting from one side of the bridge to the other side of the bridge developing ourselves And so I want you to look out for that Image also look out that he says that you almost got trampled in that first part of the story Okay, there is a essentially a near-death potentially a near-death experience the sense of my life was was almost ended Before this transformation event even happened I also want you to pay attention to the the brown ribbon Yeah, you got a uh, I think a green ribbon sit as my understanding is sixth place brown ribbon puts him at eighth place These are low places And so he's disappointed around these placements. He's he's now at a socially low point um of acceptance and uh Wishes to make a transition to A better place Not very much there about non-verbal It's more about the themes that are already starting to play out in this story Which I would say comes from confusion and may help us understand What's really happening in that child's mind? And maybe now this adult's mind and why the story may be constructed as it's constructed I'll leave it there Chase, what do you go? When when we're talking about going through that bridge That's one of the only times in this video. You'll see him specifically use his left hand gesture And there's going to be another one and we'll talk about that when it comes up And visual recall at 30 yards, uh, greg nailed it and I think he used body narration again When he's talking about the upward glance at the at this thing He's talking about looking up his eyes move upward not as a recall But as he's looking at something from his memory I think there was truthful recall where about his brother's position in the car same exact eye access and cue Uh, there's a wonderful body narration about holding the ribbons with his fingers He's holding those little brown and green ribbons there. I thought that was great And when scott asked a wonderful question there Did you hear anything was there where you guys talking in the car? His eyes look ahead, but they kind of move back and forth and this is called the transderivational search with with eye movement And that was a genuine attempt at recalling some sounds in the car And you'll see later in this video that he does have some issues with auditory memory But his visual memories are a lot more clear and Concise and that's all I got scott Excellent here again, let's um, and I'm going to put back on us Listen to the tone to greg's tone of voice and to my tone of voice because again This is how I usually talk, but I'm talking to him. My voice is up a little bit It's a little bit smoother a little bit softer And again, those are on purpose to keep him trying to keep me in that state of relaxation Everything's cool. We're just asking him questions and trying to get to to what happened You'll see here also at the beginning of it when he gets excited His illustrator start getting big then he starts calming down and his voice gets quieter And it's and the we're sort of at a medium point here on his excitement level as we go along So his illustrator start getting smaller and lower And then his his tone of voice Changes a little bit it gets a little bit softer toward the end because now we're starting to get in a little bit more Just a little bit more into the emotional part of things for him So that's when we start seeing seeing things begin to change the whole lot um That's all I got and one of the one other technique that uh scott did there was borrow a shirt from willy nelson's 1987 uh cross country tour, which is a fantastic interrogation technique that not a lot of people talk about Keep it up We guys think you're all over the back and forth Oh lord, okay, so here we go. Here we go Did you leave the car or were you in the car the whole time? Well now I have stayed in the car. I mean as far as I know um It was uh, it was a powerful night, man but uh We're pretty shaken about For a long time. We're very shaken about that, you know, but I also have weird memories of um You know that night of things that I saw or recall or Which are very difficult to talk about and I don't talk about it for a lot of reasons. I try to stay very palatable um, but uh, there were a lot of things that we came back with that night I do remember being in what looked like a large um Open area like a walmart if you were empty at a walmart, you know just empty Big open area, which was much larger than what we saw and that's why I say to people you know people say to me You know, uh, were you were you on a craft? I'm like, no You know, I don't think I was I mean I I've never said that I was um, I was somewhere We were extracted from the vehicle all four of us were remember different clips and moments or fragmented memory of what happened but um You know, we uh, we don't know where we were A lot of time went by when we found ourselves back in the vehicle My grandmother was now in the driver's seat. The car was off We didn't shut the car off and my mother stopped that car. It was running and the lights were on You know, we didn't ever she never shut the car off. We just sat there and looked at this thing. It was running And um, so my grandmother found herself in the driver's seat. She goes down a dirt road She turned around and went back to town because we're only a mile from town Where our house was about seven miles from there and she went back for help And we had no idea or she at the time had no idea how much time had passed And so she went to silks when she got out of the car She believes the car door slammed which woke me Which was something else we all came to at different times, you know, I was the second one to wake up from this thing My brother's head was on my leg Um My mother was out. She wasn't responding So I followed my grandmother into silks. We went into front door. She went right past the clerk And um, and she went to the back and she went right back to the back of the store and got Like caught up in these bikes and strollers and things that were in there I'll grab at her hand saying Nana Nana. I remember that and um The the clerk, you know was looking at my grandmother. She stopped for a minute. I don't remember everything but But um, she never really asked for help for anything and we went back outside My mother was standing in front of the car All right mark, what do you got? Yeah, so this really is in kind of pieces all over the place He starts off with um, I stayed in the car as far as I know So it's almost a set up to go So I I'm I maybe didn't stay in the car and maybe you're gonna leave it at that Or maybe we're gonna open up to go into another story which happens because We say nothing We go quiet and he goes but but And then he says well, I don't talk about these things And then he starts talking about these things. So either We're really good and just by staying quiet. He spills the beans Or this is maybe the routine of I don't normally tell people this stuff Or go on then I'll tell you so I think we go into Uh, a bit of a set story here Which is the idea of I don't normally tell people this stuff But I'm going to tell you this stuff and it's very jumbled At at this point. It really is a mash-up of lots of data And he means it's very hard to question this story because it's hard to work out Who's asleep at what point and and and what like hang on? I thought you woke up over the other side of the bridge But you seem to wake up a bit bit later there are Two there is too much jumble in here to really Go into it and go what exactly happened here? And I think there's a certain Purposefulness to this idea. It's tough now to get into this Story. Um, I'll leave it. I'll leave it at that All right. Here's what I think now With what you just said mark I think this is and tell me if I'm right about this chase or not I think that's where chase said ah because when he asks his questions at the end They start right there where he says He doesn't want he doesn't want to talk about he's not going to talk about him A lot of things happen that night. That's that's a bunch of information. He's holding right there And then from then on the reason looks so jumbled because he's running those scenarios in his head that he's remembering As he's telling the rest of the things that went on because he's trying to get away from that And I think am I right chase? Is that what you saw? Yeah, I I saw that exact moment right there and I said I want that Okay, I want to get that out Chase that was it I'm gonna say that was a beautiful loop back because we got him almost there and I tried and it was too soon But you did a fantastic job of re anchoring bringing him back in and looping him at the end to get that information I don't really felt to me like he's protecting the real story With a protection of the real story. He's fainting. He's feigning That here's the real story that I never tell anybody in order to protect from actually telling us the real story Yeah, because he almost goofed up there And so that's what I think because when chase comes back with his and starts his theme at the end Comes back to that and starts with it, but we'll get into that. It was played beautifully Beautiful Yeah, really nice really nice now another thing is when he says my grandmother found herself In the driver's seat that means that's a cue that says he didn't that was told to him That's what she said Because what happened he started her saying that obviously she's not around anymore But obviously he's heard her talk about that a lot So that's when he says he found herself in that that it was we went into the drug store and she went past I think he might have followed her in there, but I don't think he went with it That's the vibe I got but then again, that may be the way he's remembering remembering that as well You'll see at this at this point you'll see his whole hand going his head I believe this is the one if I remember correctly as he's rubbing his head Because the more emotionally gets the more that hand gets the palm of his hand gets closer to his head I'm sure chase has got something on that too because it's dealing with hands But uh, his his illustrators get less for a while. He gets really still my ruin all your stuff chase I'm taking it all. Sorry What the hell does that mean? Oh, no, no, no, you've always got your your whole hand thing freaks me out from the time we talked about the uh, when we were talking about hiding Arteries and things like that, you know, which is one thing you look for so I put their chin down But the other things when you talk about specifics. Yeah, I wouldn't get into fight or flight. But anyway Um, and I could be wrong, but I think that's I would think that's really gonna go with that because I thought about you And I saw I said that he's gonna go right for that Um, so he's and he's sitting fairly gets fairly still because he's way in there He's way deep remembering things and trying to work out what he's gonna say So back to the beginning of that. I think I think chase Saw that first part and grabbed it and said, okay, I'm gonna put that right here And I'm gonna come back to that thing here just a little while I sat there and patted on it It was nice to it and all that because when we get to the end what chase did Which which we'll go over then uh, that that's a that's a key moment in this whole thing So greg what do you got? Yeah, so there's an interesting shift In the beginning. He's talking in facts here. He actually says these words I saw or I recall That's a powerful statement because what he's saying is I've touched this memory to a point earlier chase about editing I've touched this memory dozens of times in the 50 years and I've told the story Mark to your point It's a routine he gets into so that you can talk about things in a certain way If I were in an interrogation instead of an interview I would have been very harsh and said how the hell did you know what happened about who woke up where because you were asleep Nobody knew but your grandmother But I know what his response would have been because I've talked to tom by the way guys tom is a great guy Good guy to talk to you get a lot of information out of him. He's forthcoming with whatever you want to talk about And he had told me well my story has a lot of my grandmother's memories and my mother's memories for that matter And my little brother and so I didn't go after that and say how would you know that she was in the seat? How would you know that she drove you were asleep if I were Investigating a crime. I probably would be a little more aggressive to your point mark This is a different kind of divulging information. He denies the UFO He's trying to put things in rational terms that his brain can understand He says I never was abducted by aliens never said I was this is not that this is something else He does a lot of we in this one He's starting to do deluded memory and shared story because this has been told so many times When he gets to the maybe he smirks a little and there's one point I try to cut him off mark I'm sure you noticed when he was talking about tangling up in the bike. I was like, okay, that's a visual That's his redirect and I tried to stop him, but he kept going through it um I just the he does get emotional His eyes don't drift down right, but his head is drifting down into the right and he's getting smaller as you notice So he's telling us what he remembers and he's even telling us. This is what I recall I saw or recall And so I don't see deception. I see him doing what he always does in his storytelling and that's that Excellent chase. What do you got? So we had uh There's a phrase that stood out to me here. He said I came back with A few things when he's referring to the memories I thought that was noteworthy and unusual. I don't think it was deceptive But I think it's very unusual. I came back with a lot of things Came back with Not I remember or I I specifically recall Someone trying to bullshit you And lie to you is going to say I specifically remember this I I distinctly remember seeing x y and z Like we like you've seen other people that we've analyzed on our channel have that same exact thing My my memory is crystal clear. There's nothing wrong with it Uh There were some deceptive behaviors, but not a very big cluster of them He said I remember I stayed in the car as far as I know Which is called an exclusion statement in most deception training, which is okay Then it was followed by immediate facial touching mouth covering and hygienic lip licking So we did see a little a cover there So I think he knew that statement was factually inaccurate And it was followed by something that was just a pause and is something I don't know what the name is for it. I call it a regret breather So I think it was a moment of regret that he said, you know, I stayed in the car like mark said he's probably There's a story here. He's a producer. He makes films and stuff. So he's setting it up And He makes a shift to team pronouns And I think if you watch the whole interview if you go back and watch the whole two hour deal He shifts to team pronouns anytime A there's a group memory or b the event is socially unpalatable So it might be unacceptable socially. He's a very socially driven person based on other people's all these languages social Uh flawless body narration and recall when he's looking up at his grandmother kind of reaching his hand up I thought that was a very indicative of truth there looks upward to her And if he is I'll give you a quick tip here if someone's lying to you They're more likely to want to help you to understand locations And when he says this place called silks, he doesn't say when there's a grocery store in the town that's uh 12 blocks east of wherever and it's called silks and it's this grocery store and that's what we were He doesn't care. He says we're we drive straight up the silks And I thought that spoke to a little bit more of his genuine nature there that he just he's okay with just saying the name of the store That's all I got Excellent. All right, everybody good. Mm-hmm. Let's move on So when you were in these rooms, you felt something grab your arm Did you see anything any person any kind of a person in that entire time? yeah, I saw I saw something quite disturbing, you know So I you know, I don't want Yeah, um It looked like a bug or an ant to me with a large football shaped head, which is not something I talked too much about because you know, there's no point Well, and I think the way your memory works at that age You're going to remember things a certain way for sure But as much as you're willing to share with us there, we're certainly willing to listen and I appreciate it. I know that could be disturbing Yeah, all right. I Saw something that looked It wasn't human, you know, and I've said to myself. Well, it wasn't robotic. Was it was it? You know, um genetically engineered is it? You know, we've had a lot of species on the planet. I keep saying we've got eight million species What's it? What eight million in one? You know, I've tried to justify what we saw. I tried to play with it. I've tried to make sense of that I've struggled with it. Um, but uh, yeah, I saw something that um Was quite troubling was it tall? short and I was like four and a half five feet tall me was bigger than me um It looked like a bug it had a head like a football and it had um stick like legs like bamboo when I was in florida. I you know, we had uh You know some bamboo and I was like, that's what the legs look like to me And uh, I've had it sketched and I've had eggs and raw as well, but um, I certainly avoid talking about that because it's probably the You know anything I cannot actually You know validate in some way and and um, and then again, you know We thought well, maybe you know, there were magnetic anomalies. Maybe you know, or their vehicle Maybe there were some our neurons that our head were affected. You know, I struggle with why I remember these things Why I saw these things? All right, chase. What do you got? So we're seeing mostly truth here according to me I think uh, there's genuine recall. There's no stiffness in his body here and there was some head shaking there And I and when he starts talking about what he's seen that I think the head shaking was Dismissive uh due to his worry about the social implications of what he was saying And I think that's where it came from and you can see it if you play this video back You can see when he says I saw something quite troubling You'll see the sternocleidomastoid muscle right here in the neck, which is a what I call a fear muscle This is one of the first things in the facial expression of fear This jumps in front of your carotid artery You'll see that that neck muscle start to move when he says something quite troubling. I thought that was a great micro Expression. I don't know what the heck to call it Something to spot there in the video Yeah, so there's one place in this entire interview where I was a little concerned And it's when he started to talk about seeing something his eyes dart to his right And usually he's an access left access left access left access left So why is he going right of all the things we talked about with him? This is the one that seems by my bias to be most outlandish that he saw something that he can't explain Now he's nine when I was nine I might have seen a suit of some kind that I thought was that hanging on a wall So who knows and I even give him that and I minimize a little bit that maybe your imagination was running wild But he doesn't go for that. He doesn't go and say you're right. Maybe it was my imagination He says no, this is what I saw which usually people are not emphatically going to tell you something That they're making up once you give them that out now given it's been 50 years And he's got a picture hanging in Roswell and and and different story Then when he gets to he starts to talk about a little bit of his theory You see that nervous smirk again the nervous smirk about how he's going to be received by us Because to now we've been friendly and we're you know, like I said great guy We liked him we talked to him But he's got that nervous smirk and that's who he is. It's kind of a nervous amuse smile Otherwise I'm with you Chase I think I see mostly truth here It's all memory that's been tainted and touched and all that over the years And I'm not taking anything away from whatever Tom saw He is telling us what he believes to be true Is what I think here and that's where we have a strong distinction between deception and inaccurate. That's right That's something we should say just for the the flame spray comments. Yeah and guys, I'll go all the way back I knew two people one who said he saw UFO and I knew he was lying to me And he didn't have any details and that kind of thing and another guy Who'd seen a UFO that turned out to be a street sweeper and he was drunk I mean that's that guy had factual stuff and really believed he had seen a UFO But he was a drunk driving on the road and saw a street sweeper Two different things one's trying to be deceptive. The other's telling you the truth as he recalls it Excellent mark, what do you get? Yeah, so to follow up on the points made there and the idea of truth around this I'm seeing really relaxed breathing throughout this so he's pretty relaxed telling us about some some odd stuff And I think there is some this is where it gets Way more complex I think the complexity level goes up Because this this half smile that we see. Okay. Is it is it a A half smile of of slight fear, you know socially. What are we going to make make of this? There's potentially in my mind that it's a half smile of i'm getting to a really good bit here And I like this bit. This is the bit where I do The bugs Yeah, and and and he's working up to that moment I'm unsure what I do know is there's complexity in the face there that makes somebody who's who's You know, I'm I'm a human being so we're designed to read each other at an unconscious level relatively Accurately for our own safety. And so when we look at another human being and go, ah, I don't get it. What's going on there? Then there's a level of complexity going on there It's there's something not sorted out quite in the mind as to a definition of where's this person going with this Okay, I want I want to leave another couple of things with you There's a lot of species on the planet So again, this theme is going to come Come back again. I think there's something underlying the whole Story that is that is story arc that is created here and the idea of there's a lot of animals On the planet. I'll come to back to that um Two eyebrow raises when he says I had it sketched Yeah, and it hangs in ross well Now this is super important because this same picture he did a picture Along with other kids at school and the kids and the pictures were put up His was a very different picture from all the other pictures that kids made. He was an outlier artist at school and now He's got a picture of his hanging in ross well, which means he it's canon ufology So he's moved from child outsider artist to Canon he's in the museum and this is really important for him as some I would say as somebody who got a brown ribbon and a green ribbon and now He has got first prize because his picture of the bug is up in ross well I'll leave that one there So what you've been saying so far mark is this is the count of money crystal got it exactly All right. Well, this is I think in this case is the first time we actually see What is almost if it was if it isn't eye blocking Where his hand comes around he starts this when he gets into these getting into more details of the bug And I think that's because not because he's he's Afraid of it, but he's saying stuff He knows again socially as mark was saying is not going to be accepted when he's running around start talking about something A bug as big as you are or bigger than you are that's doing stuff to you that starts to get a little bit out there It starts to get a bit odd. So I think in this case Um, that that's the first time we're actually seeing close to eye blocking because boy, he gets right in there As well, we're seeing him slow down. He gets even more still As he goes along So I think that's that's that's an important thing to pay attention to and then his voice again Begins to go straight instead of all these jumpy things everywhere It's like this and he starts telling what it is and things start going as he speaks Go at a down at the end of it these kind of things not like end of it that kind of thing We're doing this. It's down this way other than those types of things So I think again, he's focusing and trying to remember what he saw now remember and I he's he's older than me I'm 57 and he's a bit older than me. I don't remember what I was in the fourth grade I really don't I mean, I remember my teacher was miss butter any hand to god. That was her name wonderful woman And I remember some of my friends from there, but I don't remember the specifics of all that So a lot of this has to be built in from things he may remember Portions up but then built up as we go over time when you talk about the top Where you start adding things to to your to your story So I I'm at this point though. I'm not seeing a whole lot of things where he's Consciously telling is something that that didn't happen If it didn't happen, I think that that with this story as it goes along There are chunks missing and then he will fill in those chunks with things But I think he believes he saw that he saw the bug Or the the bug thing I'm more than on that and now let me let me take you another route and to tie it all together It doesn't matter if he saw it or not if he believes he saw it. I mean whatever it is, right? If you if I saw at nine years old Some kind of suit that looked like a bug hanging on a wall. Let's assume he ended up somewhere He never says he was in a UFO. He says he was in a building And now his mother was very direct. She saw a spacecraft of some kind a craft She called it a ship He never says it's exactly that he called it a craft or something He never says that he was in and you can cut this out Scott, but he never says he's in a UFO He never says that and he never says that these things did anything with him They were there. So what if it's a suit? What if it's something and he was you know, they trespass who knows? But whatever it is he remembers something and he's adding over the year is adding details back But this is his story. Nobody else is here with him at this point So it's going to be a nine year old's memory touched over and over and over by a 30 40 50 60 year old man And one thing you'll notice just just as a quick tip for you who are listening Not giving each other advice again But one thing you'll notice that greg does scott does mark does and that I do towards the end of the video The first time I start speaking to tom Is as we ask the question and tom starts talking once he gets on a roll Scott greg mark and me cover our mounts while we're listening to let him know And that's kind of a nonverbal permission for him to keep speaking and continue speaking So in the in the days of zoom meetings, that's something we can do on business meetings When we're talking to other people on zoom and we'd like to hear more information while they're talking Regulator or model you call it a moderator mark ought to write to yeah Yeah, all right pretty good Let's move on Do you remember the color of those of the bug? Do you remember what color it was? Yeah, how many colors was it? It was like a mushroom color with a like a orangey head So the football shape it was like this this way or was it like this way like a sideways Football it was just like you know, uh And the head was bigger than football Um, so the points came out here on the end like that it would go like this or it'd go like this That can the stem went up the middle of it and it had very stick like arms and legs and the body of it kind of came to a like a like a teardrop And that's what I remember And anyway talk to you I just saw I saw two of them actually they were facing a wall Their heads were almost into the wall Did they move they have eyes or what their eyes look like? like round just round like Marbles, so let me let me just get this straight. So if it's a football It was it like this or was it like this like a tip like the mouth would have been at the tip and Any eyes so it sideways in other words like straight on football not not point not point up here and point up here But points on the side, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was holding the football like this and I threw it in the wall the face would have been right there Oh, okay. I got you like I said, this is the one area that I struggle with because it's like So it's not the it's not the big almond shaped eyes or anything like that What did their hands look like did you see those? You know, I've I've tried to fill in some things that what I might what it might have looked like So to be honest with you I I don't really remember a lot of detail. I remember the fear of it. I remember sketching it I remember I I drew it then hung up hung on my class I'm sorry on a chalkboard in one of the classes I was in in fourth grade And a lot of other kids were drawing stuff too and mine was the only one that You know was a of something very different, you know No sound it didn't make a sound or did it make a sound? No I don't remember that You know, there's my brother seems to think that there was a rhythmic feeling something like that Um, I don't really remember that too much, but um, then again, we've all collectively talked about this our whole lives. So um, you know, there's A lot of things like we My brother remembers like I do being on a table somewhere But we don't talk about that either because it sounds so freaking, you know tabloid So here's what we're seeing. Uh, we see stress math here as well We start getting into the details of that when somebody Some people call lip compression where their Your lips go away He'll do it really quickly because he's saying things. He doesn't that he's afraid again socially We're gonna make him sound kind of odd The reason I kept asking about the head because I wanted to go from the in the eyes and the shape I wanted him to go from the head and start describing it all the way down But I couldn't quite get there. Then I made I I kind of goofed up here. I when I said, um What what did you hear any say on I should have what I should have said was and Greg and I Greg's talking me down off of this already But I should have said what did you hear but I did not say did make it sound Yeah, it's just a leading question versus the other. I don't think it hurt Yeah Well, I was trying I was trying to keep them in in this area so we could start describing this and work His way down, but I couldn't quite get in there because he's I think what we're seeing there a lot of times is fear In that situation I mean that's the first time I actually saw fear on him was when he was doing that and and insecurity As well when he when he began talking about that and because he got very he got really still He would use his hands But he wasn't he wasn't moving a lot and his volume sometimes would would pop out a little bit and get a little bit louder But that's I think he was actually reliving some of that note that there was fear in there So I was trying to give you a tone about the eyes when I said was it the classic almond shaped eyes? He got loud said no no, it's nothing like that He doesn't want to group himself in with all these people who claim to have seen bugs and ufo's or whatever it is the classic grace He's trying to stay to stay away from that and be the and because he's a separate from that That's another reason that that I believe I'm we're seeing Uh him being truthful here is because that because he's he's definitely saying I'm not one of those That's not what that's not me man. I'm not doing that So I think a lot of things we're seeing are him trying to separate himself from that. That's why he The information we got at the end of this when we stopped recording Was was was a lot more but that's why I think he's trying to separate himself from From all these I don't want to say people who aren't telling the truth But these these other stories because he believes what he saw was true was real So chase what do you got? Yeah, I think you mean the other stories that society might deem as less credible On a general scale So when scott is asking whether or not he looked like stewie griffin I almost said that man hand to god. I almost said because I remember the episode where he was a football head I almost went there, but I didn't And he describes the color as mushroom Which I thought was interesting. Uh, I've never heard anyone use that term. Maybe he's been hanging out at the home depot paint aisle I don't know creative colors Uh, so there was repetition of head touching. I think this is his go-to self soothing behavior here Uh, for anybody who plays poker with, uh, tom, you're welcome Uh, so is more worry about social implications here I think than anything else is this his second time expressing a lack of auditory memory And when he's talking about laying on a table, it's a second time that we see him deliberately pick up his left hand unconsciously pick up his left hand and use that specifically for a gesture And that's called gestural hemispheric tendency in my book Where someone's positive on one side and they typically gesture negative for the other side And the other time he used this uh, was when he talked about the bridge and that's all I've got. I'll pass it off to mark Yeah, lovely. So just as you're saying that chase we we see this, um comfort But the finger now taken away So I would say he's now under quite a bit of stress around getting this story About the bug specifically Across and we're seeing lots of kind of what I would say kind of bobbly movement I mean the movement is now all over the place. There isn't that relaxation We had in that last question relaxation of breathing relaxation of movement. It's way more Jerky and and pointed so so it's up on this one. I would say Yeah, we see that Side of the mouth come up in a lip compressor What is it is it fears Fears he's made a mistake around talking about this or all the specific color around it or Or he does he not like where this question is going again? I'm not sure But it's maybe something of those two Certainly this is going to an uncomfortable place for him He says I've I've tried to fill in some things He talks about fear here very specifically and yet further down the line There isn't any fear and his mum says well, there wasn't any fear But earlier on in his story way before that he was almost trampled to death And I'm thinking maybe there'd certainly be some fear there So so questions start to arise in my mind at this point about how Some fear in that event may have been sublimated into Something else projected into something else again. I don't know but that's that's where my mind starts thinking as a possibility So for me, there's a couple of things here that make me more concerned than anything I've seen I chase you're dead on now. You call it hemispheric But I have said to you early in this one if you notice when he's in control He's using his right hand and he is punctuating the right things with his right hand And when he is when he loses control to your point, he illustrates with his left hand that one time when you talk about being on the table That's that shows loss of control to his baseline If it were not for that if it were not for him showing those two different pieces I would be all over three words would have been When you said where were his eyes they would have been on the front On this part of the football they were is the way I would expect a person to answer that question Now that means conjecture. That means it feels like he's creating something in his head Body language is supporting words are a little wonky for me And I probably should have gone to hold on a second But I didn't I didn't push deep into that point And I could see he was starting to get a little nervous around the poking and prodding. So Regardless if he saw something whatever it was whatever he's filled into his own memory This is the one place I have concern in the entire story is that he saw some bug And he's sharing with us something that is very important for him to share But that's the only thing those three words Versus the body language that is just everything we've seen up until now and there's a little bit of adapting there Could that be because they're facing the wall Yeah, would have been Of course the next question is how do you how do you know if if they're facing the wall what their eyes look like That would have been another good follow-up that we didn't do. I mean, I didn't none of us did But candidly the would have been maybe it could be maybe it could be that he's saying Well, it would have been here because their head was facing the wall But that that's usually for you listening That's a red flag when somebody's describing something they say would have been It is a speech pattern in some cultures I mean a lot of new yorkers talk about when he is a new yorker, you know new yorkers I'm working in a place 15 years. That's not a normal speech pattern outside new york But he's normal in new york. So yeah chase. That's a good call out could be that But he is certainly illustrating with his right hand except for when he loses control again Then his left hand comes up. So yeah, it supports everything except for those three words Excellent. All right, here we go. Let's move on the next. This is the last one coming up You know the hurdles we've had to overcome, you know, but it's made for a strong family You know, we've got a very strong family So if I would imagine it's an emotional soup that whole night What would you tell me you felt like throughout the night? I mean, I doubt you had one feeling But if you had one that's okay, too. What did you feel like that night? Inspired in some respects, um You know, I I remember just Being completely still and just, you know Awestruck I don't remember feeling sick or happy. I just emotionalist maybe just kind of Kind of like my god, you know, I mean, that's what it was like Um I wasn't scared of anything. Um, I might maybe I was just too young to be scared I don't know what I wasn't scared at all. I um I was more uh intrigued I uh I remember I remember seeing the thing just kind of stay still And then moved in the first one You know, it actually I remember at one point the lowering um, but uh I mean, it was it was it was like a bubble You know, if you like your little bubble as a kid, you know Those little bubbles that sort of look like a bubble with a light. It was like like a two-watt mold And it was solid. It was like a sphere And this is the thing too. It didn't like bleed light off the The piece itself it was like almost like if you if you had a perfectly round light bulb and and it was just bright and intense and self-contained You know, like if it was looking at it You could almost look like a moon You you know what I mean? Nothing's giving off light. That's just self-contained that way I mean, you know, there's I've thought back and gone. Yeah, it could have looked like a moon, you know All right. Who wants to go first? And I'm much on this one This is a 60-year-old remembering a nine-year-old's memories because no nine-year-old is sitting in awe, right? This is he's edited it many times and he has gone back and thought of what he what he saw I would imagine that if this happened to an average person, never mind a nine-year-old You'd be pretty scared You would think what's that? I mean the what's that? Oh, yeah, you would get He works on this up in his memory here And he starts to say things that kind of trail off like he's lost concentration throughout this as he's trying to describe And I think in parts god is because we're poking On his story and we're asking questions. He's not had to consider I'll get I won't guarantee you because that's awfully arrogant and awfully biased But I would expect very few people have asked him. How did you feel? What did you smell? What everybody asked him? What did he hear? Maybe but what did you smell? What did you hear? That kind of stuff causes you to have to go access something We've asked him to talk about feelings here and he's avoiding feelings A lot if you notice he's going in fact into other senses to get away from feelings I expected to try to get him down right and chase This is in large part prepping for what you do later to him because if you can get him in feelings You've got control of that next setup and he just didn't go into feelings if you notice So that makes me wonder what now mark What is the feeling he's trying to stay away from? Fair work Yeah, um, so The family had a lot of hurdles and I think what what he's what has come out of this is a inspirational story Um There's this idea of scared not scared Um Asking for compliance on you know, he's a great visual storyteller He's telling us he could he could have could have looked like the moon He's kind of running out of juice now Of his of his usual story to be able to get his his handle Uh on this I think what he's done here and maybe i'm jumping to a conclusion here really rather than analyzing this moment But but he's developed um He's developed a a big story here In order to explain Something that was quite complex I imagine around around the horse or around some other fear element He's created something to deal with that complexity um And he goes on later to talk not in this clip but to talk about tom's monument To talk about arcs to talk about saving species Often though that that big Noah arc story is really a story about what do we do when things get really really hard and everything's out of control We kind of wipe the slate clean and start again and get to another side of a bridge And it's time to start again with this stuff I think he's he's created a a big story here In order to deal with the complexity of something as a as a nine-year-old And so at this point being asked the feeling of it It's it's so much deeper and so much more complex that that he can't really express the feelings that were there I mean i'm jumping way ahead here, but there's there's my piece on it please We hear him use three adjectives here This is strong inspired and awestruck And we continue to see him twice here. He says he didn't feel scared So I think uh the the two things that that govern a lot of his social decisions Am I going to confess to a crime? Am I going to talk about something? Is based on What are the social implications and will it make me look weak? So we see this theme start to play itself out And I think when he says he wasn't scared here earlier. He says I remember the fear And then here he says I wasn't scared at all Granted we didn't ask him the question But I think that he wasn't scared at all in response to while he was in the car Looking at the craft because that's the situation that we're asking him about specifically So I think there is mostly truth here And throughout the whole video there's mostly truth and we can do our percentages after uh scott's thing Okay. Yeah, it's I'm with you there. I am seeing fear on him though So I believe he was afraid and maybe he's as an adult saying it was he wasn't afraid or as He looks back on it doesn't scare him now, but I think when he was a little kid if that happened to him I think we we saw fear however he relived that if it was For whatever reason I think he he went through some something happened to him And I think he's being honest about that and and I give his Being honest and all this is truthful thing on a zero, you know to a hundred percent. I'm gonna give him I'm gonna give him about a 90 Greg what are you gonna give him? Yeah, you know I When you say Afraid chasing our both military guys and I always love hearing people's war stories And there's never the part about how afraid they were Always laugh at that because in fact, we all know exactly how you felt during that It takes a certain amount of fortitude to be able to talk about emotions with people So I'm gonna give him 85 to 90 percent I I don't see a lot of deception in his body language what he is recalling and he says What I recall not what I saw what he's recalling is what he tells us Jay mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think I think he's a very credible witness to The idea of of of what he feels a child saw I think he finds it hard to access the feelings around Around that I think he creates a very very grand narrative Around that one that is is seen throughout history And and I think there are some underlying There's some underlying psychology that here that pushes him Towards creating a grand narrative something absolutely monumental that will Let us know That he was here And and something and he was part of something inspirational And and along those lines. I see somebody with with Integrity to that story and and also Wondering whether worried that it might be a bit too tabloid a bit too extreme worried that they may not be believed It's quite, you know, I think I think it's quite a complex situation Here and I think that's what I grapple with is is is The depth and complexity of what's going on here and the age range, you know the the You know, we've got a child talking here and and an older man Telling that story of of the child. It really is quite complex. That's the best That's the best way I can explain it at this point What do you give my on a zero two hundred percent being truthful? What do you give? Yeah, like 80 Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, there's some honesty and it could have Could have been them, you know, what does he say it might have been the moon or it's you know It could have been something. I mean again some classic images. It could have been the reflections from the moon This is uh, you know, the worry is lunacy When the moon comes out And and that light hits our eyes Visions appear and this is something that has been throughout art throughout poetry It's a classic Well, I I'll I'll say this if I were not to suspend disbelief. I would go a very different route I would say okay, just because you remember something doesn't make it true and I'm saying he's being truthful to what he's In his body language and in what he's saying to us chase Thank you. Greg. I'm gonna go with an 86.7 84 percent of truth. Let me write that down Yeah, because I thought you're you're 86.7 Handing on it. That's what he said the most decimal places you've ever done. Yeah, okay. So chase tell us what happened So we see this repetitive need for socializing situations. We see a need for strength here and in interrogations there's a There's a 50 step process. There's a 10 step process depends on who you ask and nine step who your instructor is But there's four things that are very important socialize minimize rationalize and project Those four things are pretty much in every interrogation system in the world So I tried to do that in less than 20 seconds on camera here while we had them here The first thing I did was to socialize the situation and make it okay I said millions of people are are doing this for and you're doing this for others You're helping other people it helps to push his narrative. That's the reason that he's telling himself that he's doing this stuff I'm emphasizing his strength. I talk about this takes a lot of balls to come on this show Not a lot of people would do this come up against four profilers I then minimized myself by saying the first time I talked to Greg. I was Super nervous Which is actually true So then I started asking when you were nine Did the horses treat you differently and he goes wow, that was a really good question He wants his mommy to come into the room and I'm not saying saying this to make fun of him But I'm asking him a question to deliberately bring him back to childhood I have his mother in the room, which is something I have never had the pleasure of enjoying in an interrogation And then you know, there's a break his mom comes on Comes back. So I've got to push him back down into childhood again So he he has that kind of protective thing about his mom. He doesn't want four behavior profilers ripping his mom apart Which is understandable. I would have been a lot closer to the camera than him if you guys were talking to my mom I'd be at your house actually So then I have to regress him again So I regressed him again back to childhood by asking Were there are some people that you were really close with who are the closest friends that you had there were some people And with my hands as I'm going to the past I'm moving my hands this way which from a left to right timeline is backwards for me But I'm moving them this way as I'm talking about the past to help him visualize help him go back to that direction And then when I say people dismissed you I'm moving my hand away from both of us I'm not pointing at him or me. It's somebody else. That's not me. I'm not dismissing you And then I I say the words open up As I'm pointing to myself if you can just open up And then when he starts talking I cover my mouth like Scott greg and mark also did to allow him some room to speak And then I say I resocialize it at the very end saying lots of people saw this There are tons of witnesses to this that governors even confirmed it to make him more and more comfortable to talk And the reason I wanted him to regress just a little bit is what are we when we're kids? Well, what are we when we're kids with animals? We're connected. We're open and we're vulnerable So I wanted to jam some electricity into that part of his brain to begin with And then finally we go with the great technique from the reed Interrogation technique, which is called direct positive confrontation Which is basically when I say I've been doing this a long time And if I'm in an interrogation room, I might say Scott, I've been doing this a long time If there's one thing I know it's when I'm not getting the full story And that would be a direct positive Confrontation So that's a couple of things I used there's About 50 more that were snuck in there But those are some of the big broad strokes of of how we got him to say, okay, I'll talk about this But you got to shut the camera So having said that we told tom that we weren't going to show What he was going to tell us that we quit recording But we kept recording And now we're going to show you what he told us the rest of that and it is mind blowing You already Hey guys, we did promise tom we would not share what he told us What he told us did not take anything away from his story and in fact supported the things he had told us before We're not going to share that with you, but it was not fundamental to changing the story