 Welcome back to the Breakfast and Plus TV Africa. We head straight to our first major conversation where we look at the indictment of Abba Kerry and other police officers. A report says suspended head of intelligence response team and deputy police commissioner Abba Kerry has been arrested by the Nigerian police. According to reports Kerry was arrested hours after the National Drug Law Enforcement Agency declared him wanted over alleged drug lings. The suspended DCP, who is also under investigation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of the United States of America, indicted him in the case of fraud involving Instagram celebrity, popularly known as Hosh Poppy. The senior police officer are the force headquarters told correspondent and reports that Kerry was handcuffed and arrested like any other suspect. Now this morning we take a look at the legal implication of these as regards all of this and the fact that you have the law of extradition now the fact you have the United States wanting him on that particular list you also have the government here in Niger the police also arresting him and the involvement in drugs. What does this really mean for him and what do we look out for? Joining the conversation is a former DSS director Dennis Amakari. It's good to have you join us this morning. So let's share your thoughts on this particular issue. First I'd like to get your reaction and overall reaction. What do you make of this? I mean a lot of people say that they do respect the person of Abakari. He's a super cop. I mean he's done a lot if you look at his track records and with this are you surprised that you shocked at this development? Well this is shocked to me because I personally know Abakari. I think I will call him my friend. I met him with the couple of fora where we shared awards together and I was totally shocked when I heard that number one he was into kidnapping with a horse puppy and all this kind of stuff. Then a bigger shock came in when I heard about this drug thing. So it's really sad because I am looking beyond Abakari himself because which kind of situation where we are having criminals who are going to be enforcing our laws in Nigeria which does a major issue right now and I think everybody should look at that. Interesting Mr. Dennis Amakari. What do you make of the police's response to this? It's now become almost like a back-and-forth between the two state security organizations the National Drug Enforcement Agency in the Nigeria Police Force because the NDLEA said they had you know written letters of invitation as it is due process to or as it is the process to Abakari inviting him for questioning and he had refused to submit himself to them. Now he had to address his press conference telling the whole world to the shock of even the journalist in the studio somewhere had exclaiming Jesus when they had Abakari's name so you know the one who was shocked and the police now responded by saying oh we we know about the situation we've been monitoring it in fact we have a report on Abakari already but we've also been monitoring the situation around the Akamubiam International Airport and we know that there are other NDLEA officials who are also part of what's going on so please Mbuba Marwa can you investigate them what do you make of the police's response to this? I think the police was trying to cover their own bad you know it's you know it's a protocol in the services whereby you cannot arrest a soldier or a police man or even a DSS officer you know directly and taking to court or interrogating you have to apply to the service that he works for and they will release him okay and then of course they've done this earlier asking the police to release him concerning this drug issue but I think the police was trying to shuffle their leg until they have to go to the press and blow it out and now the police was not having any other choice from what I learned he has been handed over to the NDLEA now so they will go through their processes and then of course one missing link is that Abakari has to be dismissed from the police before he can be taken to court he has to be dismissed you know because he cannot go there as a serving officer and then if he's dismissed they take him to court and if he's indicted and they're prosecuted I think the FBI in the United States actually waiting for him right now to make sure that the Nigerian security agencies get their stuff together and then bring him over to complete an investigation that they are carrying out in the United States now. So but with all of this now what does this really say about the Nigerian you know police force especially at the time where he's celebrated and you have also you know attested to the fact that you both have been in the forum where there's several award and all of that what is the image for the Nigerian police force right now? The Nigerian police force had a trust deficit with the Nigerian public and then of course very few people don't trust the police I don't know the new IG has been trying to find to see that it brings up the image of the police very well and with all these things happening I don't think many Nigerians would be really surprised because there's oh now police said okay yeah that's how they are but this particular cop is somebody that has been celebrated and it is very very shocking that with all those flying colors you know there is rot on the streets you know and many people will really really be worried about it so it calls the question what are we going to do about our police force there is need for a very serious the structuring you know both in the processes and in the structure itself are we going to get state police are we going to you know retreat people all those kind of things have to come to play now because with what is going on down I don't believe that the police the police is deepening in a very bad way so I think they have to sit back and think about it seriously. Just to get a sense of of the state of affairs and the state of things with the Nigerian police force firstly you know we're not talking about the entire system you've talked about the inspector the current inspector general of police trying to reform the police and you know to make sure that the police is set right and but but we've what we've seen here is foot-drugging you've rightly said Mr. Makri that you know the DSS of the NDLE had approached and written as it is the protocol in the security apparatus in the country written and applied to the police for the release of this man he wasn't released that amounts to foot-drugging we look at the accusations and the sort of incontrovertible evidence out there of communication between the you know arrested fraudula or fraudster rather hosh puppy and this police officer and the court documents and the investigations and reports of the American FBI indicting this man and we still see that he's still in the country and he's still you know doing the suspension still a policeman so so what is going on I mean why do we have such foot-drugging is there a sincerity coming from the top echelon let's start with the police festival is there a sincerity really to reform the police and to make sure that the rights our wrongs are right I said right well you know change is a very very difficult thing to take place in any organization or any country you know so I know that the police authority would want to see the image improve but you know when this guy was arrested when the Americans in died taking there is this protocol that need to be followed because the FBI asking for about caring cannot just get him like that just like I mentioned to you earlier as long as he is a serving officer he has to go through some kind of trial internal trial that trial will now decide whether he's guilty or not good if he's guilty what they will do is to dismiss him that's the process after the dismissal then you'll be taken to court but I know it was just suspended the case has been dragging because I know for you well the police authorities might not want to send him to the United States just like that because I know from what we're getting right now if this guy is put under serious interrogation he's going to sing and they sing it like it involves some people because the kind of confidence that he has in going out to do all these things does not just say that you know and the free hand he was using I don't think that he was just alone in doing this there might be other people remember when the first indictment started from the FBI we did about four other people that we are part of it now this second indictment from the FDA has shown that there are other four you know so that's how more people are going to be involved we know more people are going to okay so it's sounding like you're saying that the reason for this because that's a lot of thoughts has been put out there a lot of people are believing that the reason for all of this arrest and the indictment is just to prevent him from answering questions you know that he has to answer the FBI of course in the United States and the his linkage or connection with Hosh Poppy but that's how that's what it sounds like right now so I'm hoping that you answer that because if you look at the crime here drug is an international crime and so if he's been linked has been a drug lord or you know a cartel leading a cartel talking about connection with Ethiopia and Nigeria that's and I mean I'm sure that you already know what that is so how can that be because if drug is an international crime why will then the Nigerian police force or the government want to put him out there you know in that light well one thing I can explain to you here is that no matter how full-drugging the Nigerian police will do now that the FBI has come to the knowledge of the FBI you know they will they will it could take years but they will interrogate him you know he's part of their processes they're not just going to forget him or sweep it on the carpet they will interrogate him no matter except he dies you know so that is there because like you said it's an international crime I've been an international crime is something that they don't play around with especially if it involves body laundry drug trafficking if it involves American citizens or it is taking place in on American soil the FBI will bite and until get this root out of it so I think we can drag all the words but I think it's better for them to go ahead and follow the processes quickly I said about that will also have the image of Nigeria because if we continue on today's there might be sanctions that would follow and that is something we don't want to go through we're glad to say we joined now by Tunde Kola Wale legal practitioner and if you want to go a security expert gentlemen thanks for joining in on the conversation okay so Tunde Kola Wale let's start with you because this is a legal issue now what would you say is the legal implication for the indictment of Abercari especially when we understand the law I mean that had existed the issue of extradition which was inherited by you know the fact that we are part of the British colony you know British colony yes so how does this really play out and what does this mean yes people get the certificate to a home country but we have less certificate to go somewhere the only person I remember clearly is the president of the Secretary of the United States of North Korea and the President of the United States of North Korea and the President of the United States of North Korea is a issue over to those countries answer to the statistics exchange and then they will come back home and if the hands are clean and they are not inside here now for a big mess and this will have to be the same for Nigeria so some of this can be a to go I have to talk to remember the case of political for more than almost anything here Nigeria was a little bit sad the political to go I have to talk to the court the court will explain you on the case the end here they were saying you on the case the national assembly of the people went in the traditional the people have brought and then they have to get out of the board to carry out in the traditional political in court interesting to the color only yes thank you very much let us start bringing them if you want to go scary experience if you want to go thanks for time coffee bottles here and mercy a book was well and how is it that such a suspended police officer who has been removed as the head of the intelligence response team going by the the words of the spokesman for the NDLE is still able to work with the team from the intelligence response unit or that with a situation that is simply inexplicable in the manner of speaking because I think this is where these whole controversy and suspicion is coming from was it suspended just to please the public was it just a function of filling the pores of the United States of America and then the Nigerian civil society we're going to say was it the case of 1000 the outrage after the allegations against a material was that why it was suspended and was it just on the pages of newspaper and then it was being utilized for official duty or was there a break in the chain of command which regards to the ROT and how the functions in carrying out the day-to-day operations and the approach and how to look that they have for the entire Nigerian population situation like we have our hands that somebody has been suspended and he's to be functioning why does he remain suspended for this long how long does it take the police service commission to close out the investigation on this person when the police across the world are being rated and Nigeria is having very negative issues that come up and become a bright on the image of the other environments so the police authorities must do the best they can so that justice will be seen to be done in fact like I was discussing with a colleague and a friend somebody who is in the security services particularly the police must be held to much more higher standard than the ordinary Nigerian so much so that when you decide to carry out his normal day-to-day functions nobody is going to question his motive because they need such a person as ready to be held to higher standard there's a lot in magazine that is considered with whose customers it is considered who we got the guards themselves in the manner of speaking and that's where we found ourselves now so the police must be unimpeachable and sadly that's not the situation we have and I think these things do happen because heads do not rule to put it simply there is a lack an acute lack of consequence management in the Nigerian landscape as far as the public sector is concerned but as far as the security sector is concerned particularly there is a lack of consequence management people are not heads responsible for instance who does the IRRT report to where is the gap coming from as there is no resignations as anybody be called to order am I aware that the security agencies are agencies where you give instructions and take instructions and everybody has a small view and area of responsibility so if somebody has robbed the ball what is the IG, what is the general police doing, what is the chair of the police service commission doing and then what is the commander in chief doing because if the world robs off negatively on the Nigerian image well talking about you know what the police is actually doing it's also being put out there that there was actually an in house police investigation was discreet and that's how you know the police was able to you know to arrest coupled with the issues that the NDLEA had actually raised well however I'd like to also bring in Dennis Amakere once again back to the conversation Dennis I hope we still have you on the line alright so let's look at what this would mean for some of the cases that you know Amakere has handled for instance very popular one in our mind is that of Ivans and so with all of this issue arrest and then the fact that these agencies are saying that they have facts they can actually establish it that he has you know connection with international drug trafficking or cabalo cartel however you want to put it what does this mean with some of these cases and Ivans has actually accused them of extortion oh yes of course you find out that the cases that has even brought him to the limelight where he was termed the super cop in Nigeria still remains it does not mean that Ivans did not actually kidnap people maybe there might be some problems in processes or the you know the way he used to try to prosecute his investigation excuse me so I know that that is not going to be effective the major case is that Ivans is a kidnapper and they will take it from there but for his own indictment of what he did with drug dealers that's another case altogether how about the case of extortion that he's been accused of by Ivans who we say you know it's a kidnapper if he can prove that or if his lawyers can prove that in court that during the investigation you know Abakari has started money from him then no problem the court will decide what they want to do either a resolution to the person but that is not going to cancel the case alright Mr. Makri this probe into Abakari and I'm still going to bring us back to the issue of foot dragging in the loop we have a Niger police force launching an investigation in the loop we have a police service commission which is meant to receive the report and forward it to the attorney general and minister of justice Aboka Malami Essayen who is also in the loop and this panel submits its report to the PSC PSC says the report has been sent to the attorney general then later to get a statement out saying that the report is not deep enough and others that the panel should go and do another investigation and bring another report in two weeks but we have evidence reports investigations conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the United States of America we have testimony from a suspect who is undergoing trial we have evidence put out of communication between this police officer and a suspect undergoing trial for fraud and we're still hovering around this whole issue of whether a report is going to be accepted or not and then this has cropped up as well and I still want us to get to the bottom of who is protecting Abakari and why and then it's said that the police now condones crime and accepts crime and it's okay and comfortable with its operatives being involved in crime as well as Nigerians don't say anything about it well the thing is that you know this investigation with Abakari has been going through the beds and yes the other person could say that yes he's being covered or somebody is protecting or watching his back and then they are refusing because remember this guy was a high flying officer and being a high flying officer of course there are some very senior officers that maybe you know would be very very familiar body body with him so I know that it could come to a situation where some people might go and say oh let's look at this you know he has done five good things and then yeah we have only two bad things so why are you trying to kill him you know don't throw the baby with the baby water out of the place but that is not law of course the lawyer there will tell you that what he has done is against the law and is going to answer for it and the United States FBI you know will carry out the investigations they are not sharing it with the Nigerian police they will carry out the investigations what they've done is to request for him to be brought to them and when he comes they will interrogate him and then take him to court and when he gets to court everybody will hear what actually happened you know so they are not going to share their report with us what we need to do here is to keep our house together because try to cover it or try to food drag and you know pull it for longer time it's not going to help us but what it is going to hit our image Alright I have a quick question for you and I think I could turn the color a little as a lawyer would also ship in on this and there is something called a code of conduct for public officers you know a public servants in the Nigerian Constitution apart from the codes that govern the individual agencies ministries and departments and Abercarie has been seen before now to be frolicking with different sorts of people having direct communication as a police officer for instance as a public servant in Nigeria selling things that you shouldn't do is this code of conduct for public officers as enshrined in the Nigerian Constitution 1999 as amended is it enforced I mean from your time as director of the DSS was it something that your previous and yourself were aware of and you know schooled on and you know knowledgeable about to be careful not to flout let me tell you the other security expert there was saying it to you that you know when it comes I think a thing that when it comes to code of conduct the ones for security officers is higher than the one that is out on the public you know because there are very critical areas that security officers trading and you cannot you know compromise yourself you know there are there are there are any situations where you don't accept gifts I remember when I was in the service if you bring me a Christmas hamper or you bring me a gift somehow I am going to declare it that gift will be declared to the office and the office will not decide say okay you can keep it or we confiscate it there are many implications for gifts number one it could you know make the officer to be compromised number two in our own kind of service in the DSS you never know some of these gifts might have hidden cameras or hidden voice instruments that could record people so these are the kinds of things that in the code does not play around with so for you to be friendly came with people going to parties with them taking pictures he knows because even when he went to the IGP's daughter or son's wedding he took many pictures and put them on Facebook and then when people started shouting he started deleting them but that tells you a lot of things how can you an officer that is under suspension be invited to a party by the IGP that tells you everything very quickly your thoughts on this this a serial flouting of the code of conduct for public officers by public officers in Nigeria Yes We'll tell you within any of our security policies simply because the corruption that is taking place in most of the security policies go right from the very bottom to the top I'll give you a good example Evan is not making money now that he was cheating was wrong because when he was a stopper from death when he had worked with the IGP I do know the lawyer to Evan a lot of things were taken from Evan's house, money, his working, his principal home, and so generators and what have they that were captured with that and not from the court of confidentiality I mean the lawyer to Evan applied to court but the court has not made the fees or they have not made another for the confiscation of this one property You the court complied with the court that he had been cheated so he told all these people here he will not believe the court that he had been cheating the lawyer he started calling him on phone to threaten him that he would deal with it and in addition to that I won't mention where the telephone also came from the telephone called came from the most to one of the highest levels of the negligence of the court that the lawyer should put the application for the return of all the people that have told him for Mr. Evan's house here in Lagos and other places furthermore that is just because of that that the officer to asking the lawyer to stop who are not part of the investigation knew it's not about the court of particular men that have missed out on Evan's house furthermore I have said this is because in some other countries of the world the kind of integrity test that you don't need to talk about because even though Mr. Mastry had never once said a policeman could be able to put the help of one place and the police would have brought some very attractive things like money, like wealthiness and all that but then the policemen go in there and cause that I didn't be sure that the family or business that are intentionally brought in there to be Mr. Kolowale I'm afraid we have to leave it at that very interesting history you've given to us I wish you had more time but it's clear from what you've said and from what other guests have said Dennis and Markry and of course if you want to go that time a lot needs to be done to restore the integrity of the security apparatus in this country it's gone to the gutters as we speak if officers are able to do these things and get away with it how many other carries do we have the other members of the IRT how many of them do we have the police is saying that they already had a report on them they're already waiting for if the NDLE had not come out to blow the whistle and to say this is going on well we have known it was going on more questions and answers thank you very much for your time Dennis and Markry, former director of the department of state services thank you very much for your time Mr. Kolowale, legal practitioner and thank you very much for your time if you want to go security expert thank you gentlemen all right Mercy it's another day, another drama isn't it definitely but we move straight to taking a break when we return we're flipping the coin to the other side looking at the killing of policemen across the entire country we'll be joined by a firm commissioner please Lawrence Hallowe please stay with us