 Because the center-left, center-right, right-wing parties, left-wing parties and so on, because there is a total collapse and total lack of faith in these parties and particularly in the United States, Republican Democrats and so on, there is first kind of turning away from the political parties and in the United States probably the Obama moment is quite decisive that a lot of these young people had put their faith in Obama and when Obama does what he does, that very immense mass of young people now say none of these political parties are going to do anything. We cannot go on saying vote for so and so and so and so. So and for many, the lack of faith in the parties immediately goes to the next stage of not having faith any longer in the system as such. We want some other system, not capitalism and so on. That is one sort of trajectory. But connected with that is something that occurs to me and I would like to have your opinion on it. With the defeat, decline, stagnation, whatever words you want to use, both of communism and social democracy. What seems to be emerging also is the third great radical movement descended from the 19th century, which is anarchism. And what interests me also is in many places it is coming self-consciously as anarchism. But in many of the manifestations of these social movements, they may not at all even be aware of what the lineage of their politics really is. But the lineage is anarchism. The lineage is anarchism, syndicalism, that. How would you respond to all of these? There's a zeitgeist about, especially amongst the young people in and out of universities. It's a zeitgeist, where what really gets them turned on is horizontalism, is everybody must agree at the smallest local level to everything. It's astonishing because this is occurring at the same time that you have this incredibly fast communication. And I think it is, well, without in any sense saying that it's Facebook that causes Cairo, Tahrir Square, nevertheless there's no question that this is a means of communication that plays a role just as Mark said in the 19th century what took the, versus these centuries, the working class with telegraphs is able to organize much more quickly. Every new technology... Exactly, and it's playing a role, playing a role. So it's a very fast means of communication, very fast. But the type of politics is unbelievably slow. Every meeting, every discussion in New York in Zuccotti Square, it was decided very early as they were getting money brought in and a lot of it was coming from the unions, that they should invest in garbage cans so the city would not have the excuse of moving in because the site was unsanitary. This was put to the public meeting that's held every day where everybody speaks and repeats what is spoken and so on and so forth, borrowed from the Argentinians in 2001 in the streets and they passed it, bought. Before they passed it, someone picked up their hand and said, I want to amend that. The garbage cans have to be bought on eBay and then someone picked up their hand and they have to be fair trade garbage cans. Well, the result of this kind of... because one person said that you have to agree, two weeks later they still didn't have garbage cans. Because the discussion is still going on. On garbage cans. Now, it's a negative example. There are very many positive things about it. But it does reflect, and what turns on students, I must say, and not only students, young people who aren't even in the universities, is this wonderful horizontalism, localism, consensus, we're all going to talk it out, etc. and a suspicion of representation. It's not just that they've been indoctrinated with post-modernist ideas, where the representation crisis, of course, is central to the whole thing. Some of them don't even know of that. It is something in the air, which is something we have to... Yes, but that also is some sort of pale shadow of Proudhon. Of course. I totally agree. And yes, so I think many of them then do come across anarchists who give them a historical, ideological, theoretical basis for what has already attracted them. It's there, and we can't ignore it. It makes politics very frustrating. We get a lot of attention in Toronto, because we have a group called the Socialist Project that does a bulletin that gets a lot of internet exposure. We've created a group called the Workers' Assembly, which is attempting to be able to allow us... allow, in generally, people to orient themselves to labor struggles in the city and beyond and so on. But we are spinning our wheels in order to be able to accommodate people whose politics is organize the next protest and only organize the next protest. That's all that excites them. Plus, nobody should speak for longer than a few minutes, worries about elections, you know, let's have a... insofar as we have any central committee at all, it'd be by volunteers, the usual problems that have existed through this process of a certain tyranny of structuralistness. And we have to overcome this. One last question. Occupy Wall Street now has been there for an Occupy movement now, no one should call it. And it has spread to hundreds of cities and so on, but it also appears that it seems to have reached a plateau. And they would... from afar, from in... you know, looking at it from India, it appears that they have reached a plateau that they would have to invest a lot of energy just in keeping up the momentum. Do you see any real dramatic breakthrough as the spring comes and the summer... Well, you know, the great student of American social movements, Francis Fox Piven, you know, says that one needs to see these things not in a linear way. That, you know, if one goes back to the American civil rights struggle, the first actions were taking place in 1955, in fact. And then they begin to dribble away, and then you get the busboy cuts a couple of years later, et cetera. So she... I think things wisely says that, you know, there was the moment with Wisconsin and the United States when they occupied the assembly building. And then it petered out for a while, and then it took a very different and surprising form with the Occupy stuff initiated by quasi-anarchist, very cute magazine in Canada called Adbusters, which does mocks of corporate advertising. And I think it's the only problem in the world is that the American Supreme Court ruled that corporations were legal persons, right? But it really took off. And I think it took off because it captured something that people wanted to hear. Ordinary people wanted to hear. Ordinary working people wanted to hear. It spoke in a class terms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which nobody does. So 99 to 1 is a very crude class analysis, but it's a class analysis. It's a great slogan. It's a great class slogan. And it was a bit like saying the emperor's no clothes. The fact once they said it, it articulated a discourse that people wanted to hear. In that sense it's been very important. Now part of the problem with these things inevitably is that the main purpose of it after a while becomes to keep this particular occupation going. And the main point of the whole exercise is how are we going to keep occupying this little space, right? In that sense it becomes very inward-looking rather than outward-looking, that said. And of course as winter came, as the police played the inevitable role they would play, it's dissipated. It isn't so much a matter of expecting it to reoccupy or though there will be reoccupations. In New York and elsewhere, out of it has come an attempt to work with people in the Bronx and other parts of New York City in terms of not allowing dispositions of people who are being moved out of their homes. And that's important. And if it leads to that kind of grassroots organizing, if it isn't diverted into, well, nevertheless we've got to get the Democrats in, which will be very, very tempting and you can't even criticize people for it. Because even if Romney's the candidate, the balance of forces in the Republican Party has shifted even further to the right than before. So it could be that they'll galvanize them electorally this year. So at this point it's really sort of open as to where it goes. But I just want to say that there are an increasing number of people in the United States who grew out of this local protest politics or are involved in local organizing, like the worker centers, black power centers, et cetera, who are increasingly seeing themselves as limited in those activities and who are explicitly talking about themselves as a cadre that needs to go national. That needs a political organization and that needs to go national. You actually hear more talk about this in the United States than you do in Canada, than you do in many European countries. And that may be an important development. That's all. Thank you very much.