 and welcome to Pukipondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, why might letting go be the secret to better student behaviour? And I'm in conversation with Mark Goodwin. Thank you for having me, Pukie. My name's Mark Goodwin. Equal parts education. I'm a 20, over 20 year teacher and school leader. I was previously a deputy head. The last three years having set up a education consultancy business equal parts education. I work in two parts. The first part is one to one on an education coaching programme for permanently excluded students. Sometimes students that are out of school for other reason but predominantly permanently excluded students. And the other half of my work is in schools, teaching schools, universities, as a trainer and coach working with teachers and school leaders on behaviour. Wow, that you're busy. The pandemic is not good for business that relies on ad hoc relationship with schools. Some work stopped, some work hasn't. Sadly, Pukie, the pandemic is, as we both know, really hard on children. And a lot of young people are really struggling. And the amount of students that are out of school or who are out of school and need support means there's plenty of work to do. But also teachers want help and advice. And we're all struggling at the moment. But anybody that's got something that works with disengaged or disconnected students, you're in demand. So on the one hand, yeah, I lost a bit of work. But on the other, there's plenty of places to help. Absolutely. And the episode question today, so our jumping off point is, why might letting go be the secret to better student behaviour? So we'll start there and we see where we go. Just what does that question even mean? So when we first spoke about talking, I really wanted to frame the work I do in a way that I think would challenge me, but also challenge listeners. You know, what is it that gets the best out of young people who have become disconnected from school and their learning? And as we both know, they've become disconnected from themselves. So it was a challenge to me and a challenge to the listeners. What is it that you have to do in order to build those relationships and to get those young people who are out of school to reconnect with themselves? And I was reading a couple of things. So a couple of books that had a quite a significant impact on me. And I was able to frame it, frame the work I did with this idea of letting go. As a teacher, we build our reputations, we build our credibility, we build our professional credibility on being in control, actually, on being in control, of knowing what we're doing, of delivering results on performance, on our ego, on what we do personally, and so much of teaching does rest on that. But I realised that in turning around these young people that have become disconnected, it was actually the opposite. And I've come to this, why the question, get back to the question mark, because when you're working with kids that are permanently excluded, everything else has failed really. They have been permanently excluded from education. And I do believe that overwhelmingly schools and education try everything to keep kids in there. And I believe that because I believe that's what education is, one of the foundational principles of education. So something really catastrophic has happened when a kid has been permanently excluded. So for me, I've got to try something different. I've got to let go of certain things. And I suppose what's interesting is what are the things that I've let go of? And I'll start with probably the most challenging thing is I've had to let go of being right all the time. I've had to let go of thinking I've got all the answers. Because working with permanently excluded students, working in alternative and special, as I have done now for three years, I've been tested professionally, but also I've learned an enormous amount professionally as a teacher. And even 20 plus years, I've learned so much in these last three years. And I would say the first thing that I've let go of has always been right. Being right just gets you back into a corner. And it backs the young person into a corner because you have to prove your point. So I've got very used to saying, well, I'm not sure. I've got very used to saying, well, maybe I've got used to saying, well, you know, your opinion is valid, but there are other opinions. What I am rock solid on is a commitment. So there's probably a balance in all of these observations of mine. There is a rock solid commitment to their better future, to their potential, to their goals and what they want to do. But as we get in there and as we work in there, I'm quite prepared to give them the floor. I'm quite prepared for them to hold an opinion that might disagree with. Yeah. So being right is one of the first things that I would let go of. You said there about you're prepared to hold sort of different opinions than the young people that you might be working with. What if that opinion that differs is around their sort of, you know, their fundamental right to a better future? For example, I'm assuming you're working with some kids who've got some quite challenging stuff going on and that maybe you think that they can aspire to a certain way of being or doing, for example, and they might disagree. Well, that's where, yeah, that bit of the conversation is where I show how much I believe in them. And that's where they know from the very outset that I am fully committed to a potential that they may not believe in. So they can hold the opinion they're useless. They can hold the opinion that they're a waste of space, that they are pathetic and a failure. But I'll continually challenge that. And that is a really important part of the work that they see. And it's building trust, isn't it? It's that unconditional positive regard that they often have lacked. And that means that I suppose where I have to let them be right is in their view of school and education, I could point out how they've made a failure of it. I could point out how they've let themselves down and they've made mistakes. But what does that achieve? It just pushes them deeper into the hole that they're in. And my job is to try and get them out of that and get them into a space where learning makes more sense to them, education makes more sense to them and their future makes more sense to them. So tell us a little bit more about your work and the bits about it that you really enjoy and what it is that you're trying to do. And what does success look like for you? Yeah. So I mean, one of the things that I let go of is results is the typical teacher key performance indicator results. And that's not to say that I don't get incredible results. Kids back into college that were permanently excluded, kids GCSEs that were permanently excluded, kids back into school that were permanently excluded. But if you go on about those results all the time and how important it is, it crushes and confuses kids. Now, I recognise Pookie that I've got a luxury that schools haven't because success for me is getting these kids back into school. Ultimately, they will take exams and some do take exams. But I know the pressure that school is under. So I'm not being blasé about that. But for me, it's less about the results. The results are important. I talk about gateways. I talk about opening up their future. But I'm more interested in the process. So rather than go on about the results, I go on about the process. And the process is day to day with these young people, sometimes only for an hour, but often for two hours, it's about completing some meaningful work, completing some learning. So a typical, some of my work in schools, some of my work looks like workshops. But often it will be a teaching session will be me going through, I'm a history trained teacher. So sometimes it's history, sometimes it's math, sometimes it's English, sometimes it's history. I have taught that in these circumstances. And it's challenging the young person to do the work, challenging them in a supportive way, challenging them in a compassionate way. I'm a trained coach and I use a lot of solutions, focus coaching strategies. What is our goal today? What is the aim of today? And it's working through their resistance. It's working through their self-doubt. It's rebuilding confidence in learning. And I do that by helping them, challenging them, but then helping them work through that challenge. A lot of mistakes get made. So something that I have to let go of is mistakes. A lot of mistakes are made. But it's using that idea of first attempts in learning and reminding them that it's not a mistake. It's not final. It's not the end if they're prepared to have another go. I suppose it encapsulates it all in one idea. It's about building resilience, Puki, and with students that have been so wounded by education. That is hard, but it can be done. The success looks like just today. I was on the last day of transition for a young person that is starting in year six, having been excluded last January. So me and another tutor from Reflective Learning who I mainly work with, Reflective School Support. So B is going to start full-time at his new primary school on Monday. And that's after a year of working with us. And success looks like Jay from last year who was permanently excluded in year 11. And I picked him up in April of year 11. And we got him some qualifications, ones and twos, but it was enough with a bit of help to get him onto a college course. And he's on a college course. And success can look like exam results. It can also just look like a kid that feels better about themselves and re-engages with education. So some of the students I've worked with have been key stage two. They've been younger, who have been permanently excluded, and they just get back into a school that they are better suited to. So success is still, I'm still proud of the successes. But rather than use that as an indicator, I try and keep the young people focused on the day to day, on what we can do in the next hour, what we can do in the next two hours. Sometimes what we can do in the next five minutes to move them closer to that. Is that because it feels too big and scary to you or to them otherwise? Or is it, what's the reason for that? I have to hold that. I have to create, sometimes I am scared. You know, I'm a human being, and sometimes I'm scared. You know, I'm fearful for the young person and the situation they're in. I'm fearful for their future. But I know I'm very confident in what I've done and where I can get them to. So I have to hold a space for them that is supportive, that is unconditionally positive, that is a place that they're comfortable in. So I have to choose the work carefully. I have to choose my words carefully. I have to choose my conversations carefully. And that's where I suppose I have to let go of the natural fear and anxiety and apprehension that might accompany work with a challenging student. I mean, I'm a 20 plus year teacher. The last thing I want is to be told how useless I am or what a waste of space I am or how my lesson can go, you know, do one today. But I have to let that go. I have to ignore that and I have to secure and offer a very flexible learning space where they can start to re-engage and reconnect with learning. So basically, I mean, one thing that I always say to teachers, one thing that you can do for the kids that find school difficult in your class, the one thing that you can do is just when you've done your planning, when you've planned your lessons, just look at that work, just spend two minutes looking at that work through the eye of the most disengaged student in your class, whether it's, you know, mainstream, primary, special, just look at it through the most dis... What does the literacy expectations have? What does the written work... And ask yourself what you could do to make that engage in. So two minutes... Yeah, I accept it's double planning, it's another job, but two minutes can save 30 minutes of heartache in the classroom. Just look at the work. And I do that for every... What does this look like to Jay? What does this look like to be who has decided that they hate and will never do a written piece of work? They hate maths. So what does this work look like to them? How can I make it engage in? How can I make it something that they might want to pick up? And those two minutes can make all the difference for teachers. There's a very practical way of looking at your planning to avoid possible challenge and confrontation. And what works there? Because I love that idea and that's such a simple sounding piece of advice. Look at the work that you're setting through the eyes of the most disengaged learner, but what does that mean in practice? Does that mean you're having to do things that are exciting or like culturally relevant? Well, I don't know, I'm not a teacher, you'll have to... Yeah, yeah, so I do. My mentor, my first mentor said to me that you've got to make it engage and you've got to make your teaching fun. He's a great teacher, he's one of those teachers and he went on to be a head teacher. I kept in touch with him for a long time, but he said to me, Mike, you've got to make your lesson engaging and fun, but you don't teach the history of skateboarding. And I completely understood what he said. I don't teach the history of Premier League football or the history of Call of Duty, but you might use that as a hook to get them interested. But no, Pookie, I'm a trained teacher in philosophy for children. So I do a lot of open-ending philosophical inquiry. For example, I play cards to engage with maths and numbers. Reading, all the kids I work with read a book. We find a book. Sometimes that's a bit of a struggle, but I know books well enough to find a book that will land. And I'm talking about lads that haven't read for five, six, seven, eight years. The last book they read was in year four. They read Roald Dahl as a class, but I find books that it's through reading that the world and the imagination come alive. So it looks like I'll often use some tricks and gimmicks to get them engaged, but then the learning is proper curriculum learning. I did something on the American election with somebody that hadn't got a clue that there was even an election in America with one of the lads. We did the Holocaust Memorial Day today with one of the kids this morning. So, and yeah, and P4C is a great teaching approach. The teaching of philosophical inquiry has been shown to have a massive learning impact on the most disengaged students, big open-ended questions. Their opinions are valued and noted. They get a chance to talk about it. It's conversational and not written, but once you get those conversations going, then you can steer them towards the learning that you want and steer them towards something linked to one of the topics. I mean, I'll be completely honest about this, Pookey. Year 11 boys, year 11 boys, which we pick up a lot of those as permanently excluded. You're 10, year 11, and they like motorbikes, and you can teach anything through their love of a motorbike. I've done science, maths and English, and they like boxing. They like mixed martial arts. It's not boxing is, but ultimate fighter and mixed martial arts is not my thing, but I'll happily talk about that if it gets them to write a piece of descriptive writing or a flyer for a gym or whatever it is that's needed to get the English through. So, I'll absolutely use their interests to get them connected to their learning. Can you talk to me a little bit about what's happening for the children who kind of end up on your caseload? I don't know how you describe it, but I'm particularly interested about the younger ones. I mean, it's conceivable that someone in year 10, year 11 that things might have got to a point where they need your kind of intervention, but the idea that you're working with children in primary school is a bit heartbreaking actually. I mean, all of it is, but you know what I mean, and what's gone wrong for them? So, I'm really diplomatic because I was a deputy head in a mainstream, secondary, comprehensive. I've sat in those exclusion meetings, explained to parents. I know that schools make very, very difficult situations, so I'm not judging any school, but it does beg the question with the school, what's gone wrong if you've permanently excluded a five-year-old, a seven-year-old? Really, you know, you've said that there are no more chances, there are no more opportunities, there is nothing else we can do for you. So, it does happen, Pookie, and sadly the first, when I first started doing this work, the first two lads that I worked with were both permanently excluded at the start at the end of year five. Now, why would a primary school do that with a difficult kid, with special educational needs? Why would they do that? That's a rhetorical question, but I think all your listeners will know why they might do that with the pressure of sats in the next year and concerns about results, but that's a question I'll leave there for other people, because it is desperately sad when this happens, because it's telling a seven-year-old, a ten-year-old, that there's no more chances, that they've used up all their chances. So, the first thing to do is to actually start to rebuild their self-belief and their self-confidence, and a part of that work is a strategy I use, I'm really passionate about actually, I call it the cookie jar. I think it comes from CBT. Somebody said, oh, you know, that's a CBT. I didn't know it was that. I actually got it from an ultra-runner named David Goggins, and he runs 100-mile races, just an incredible athlete, but he talks about, you know, overcoming his willingness to do it. He talks about his resilience, and he builds his resilience by holding a cookie jar full of all the times he's trained when he thought he couldn't, of all the races he's completed, of all the injuries that he's overcome, and he kind of holds these in a mental cookie jar, and I thought that is just a brilliant idea, and what I actually do is I actually set up a cookie jar for the young person, and it works with Key Stage 2, it works with the young ones, it works with the older ones, and what I do is I tell them right at the outset that every time they do something that they didn't think that they could do, every time they do something, whether it's just, you know, writing a sentence or answering a question or taking their hood off, you know, we start very small, but every time they do something they thought they couldn't do. I put it in the cookie jar, so in the cookie jar we end up with slips of paper, a whole of the eight times table, okay, that's what I think it was Jay who managed that, so that went in there, and that young person has now got a visual demonstration of my believing in them, of my noticing them, of them doing good things, and it only takes three or four in there for me to be able to say, when they say they can't do something, when they say it's too hard, I just say, well, last week, what did we do last week, and you can point to the cookie jar, the idea being that it's something they can go back to, it's a sweet treat that they can get out of the cookie jar when they're finding things hard and when they're finding things difficult, and I've used a physical cookie jar like that, I've also used just a sheet of paper and we put post-it notes on it, or we use the back of their exercise book, the back of their workbook and write things down, but the idea is that, and the reason it works is that I'm noticing them, that they are building their self-esteem, not because of motivational sayings or me saying how great they are, they're building their self-esteem by performing esteemable acts, by taking action that's building up their self-esteem, and I've used this countless times, I tell anybody that would listen about how important it is, because it's building intrinsic motivation, and that's the clincher when we talk about motivated young people, we can motivate, we can reward, but what we really want is independent young people that are doing it for themselves, and that cookie jar is one of the main reasons I believe, why I get the results that I do, and going back to the original question of the podcast which is about letting go, and I'm letting go of judgement, I'm letting go of the judgements the young people have previously received about how many mistakes they make, how many failings they've committed, and I'm letting go of that, and I'm building up a new judgement of them, a new perception of them, a new way of them being, which is more independent and more intrinsically motivated. I think it's brilliant having that tangible way of representing it, so I often talk about creating ICANN cycles when working with children who are anxious, and like you just starting really really small, and building the idea of the things that the child can do, but I think having that actual visible reminder was a really powerful way of doing it. I've got a big question for you, which I have an opinion, I'm sure everyone has opinion on, but does everybody deserve a second chance? I'm sure sometimes in your work you will be working with children who everyone else has given up on, and you're there presumably trying to help them. Yeah, do any of them test you? That's the, yeah, I worked with a young lady last year who, because of, as you can imagine Pookey, incredibly sad trauma in her life was lashed out. A good session was that she would not tell me to F1, not tell me what a worthless, no good waste of space piece of teacher, half hearted nonsense in the most fruity language you could imagine. But if you believe in this work, and I do, if you believe and are committed to young people's futures, then that girl, perhaps more than any other student that I work with, deserved a second chance and deserved me turning up there in the hope that little by little the wheel start to turn in a more positive direction, and she was incredibly wounded, and I worked with her for about six months up until the first lockdown last March, and sadly a lot of the work that we pick up is contracts from local authorities, and of course she went back into her education provision, and I work finished with her, but over the six months or so from the December to the March that I work with her, it was starting to make a difference, less challenge, less conflict, more work. It was just, it was really hard to find what landed, and I talked to, you know, always talk about double planning, I was triple planning, I had to have two or three things ready for the stuff she rejected, but we started to work for example, she should be happily copying, so I'd give her some text or some some questions, and she'd be happy copying the questions and then writing her answers, now that to me was a complete waste of time, why would you do that, you know, as a student, why would you, but that's what she needed to copy out the question first, copy out the question in her own handwriting, and then do the answer. So I learned so much from her, bless her, and yeah, I think it, I'm committed to this work, Puke, and every kid deserves a second chance, and where else does, without getting too highfalutin about it, but where else does redemption lie, where else does rehabilitation lie, where else does restorative justice lie, if it doesn't lie, you know, if you can't create the space for a second chance, and I say to people as well, these are young people, you know, these are not adults, you know, you perhaps expect a bit more from adults, and you might be less willing if they do certain things, but I say all of this with, I've got a bit of a mantra that I say, and anybody can make a mistake, but only a fool repeats it, and the kids will laugh and they'll smile, but I know that lands, you know, I'll give you a second chance, but you know, don't push it, you know, we're talking about things here, I don't want you to keep making this mistake, and mistakes is the classic thing that you talk about when you talk about letting go, you know, look at how much judgment as a culture in the United Kingdom, as an education culture, look how loaded mistakes are, and how fearful people are, kids are of making mistakes, adults are of making mistakes, and so I have to generate a different relationship for the kid with mistakes, you know, I want them to make mistakes, I want them to get things wrong, because that's how they're going to learn, but I also want them to acknowledge their mistakes, you know, they've made mistakes, if you've been permanently excluded from school, you've made mistakes, and you can point the finger wherever you like, but you have made mistakes, and it's acknowledging those mistakes, and forgiving themselves, you've got to forgive themselves, and learn from those mistakes, I talk about teachable moments, you know, kids curse under their breath, or they get something wrong, or they screw the paper, or they say something, we talk about teachable moments, what can we learn from that, so open up the conversation around mistakes, and for goodness sake, you know, let's have a whole lot less shaming, naming and shaming, and guilt around mistakes, because it's not helpful to the young person if we want to move them forward, and that's where I let go, I tell them about the mistakes that I've made, the speeding tickets that I've got, you know, I can blame the speed camera, you know, I can moan about the police, and haven't they got better, but you know, I've made a mistake, I was speeding in the wrong area, thankfully that doesn't happen very often, you know, I'm not at risk of losing my licence, but the kids need to see that as adults, and I'm happy to give that, as well as, you know, making mistakes in learning, when I've wanted to learn something, so there's another example of where you try and let go, you know, I haven't got all the answers, Pookie, teachers, too often, I think this is a bit of a cultural thing as well, you know, perfection is all that's acceptable, it has to be, you know, perfection, and we're human beings, Pookie, and you know, alright, he's okay, good, you know, he's okay, perfection can just mess with you, and yeah, so a conversation around mistakes, letting go of my own perfectionism, I want to get things right, but letting go of that, and creating a space where the kids can forgive themselves, and learn from the mistakes, and then hopefully move forward. How did you end up doing this kind of work, so I know you mentioned very briefly that you, so you finished school at 16, and didn't become a teacher till quite a bit later, I feel like there's probably quite a lot of story to be told there. Yeah, I'll just leave that there for you to decide how many blanks you'd like to fill. Well, it is only a one-hour podcast, but I think I've done a lot of different jobs, so I can talk to the kids about different jobs, and what you actually get from the jobs that actually look quite glamorous, or look like they might be the stereotypical job that you should do, but I also can talk to kids about the value of education, and to cut a very long story short, and perhaps as a bit of a tagline, a wonderful head teacher that I was on a leadership team with some time ago now, but I still keep in touch with him. He used to talk about two things, generosity of spirit, and he always wanted to know what teachers were doing to demonstrate generosity of spirit, but the other thing was the power of education to change lives, and the power of education to change lives, and I think, as teachers, this job is so demanding that the job asks a lot of us, however you work in education, but I talk to teachers about meaning and purpose, and to know that on any given day, you could have the conversation, or you could deliver the lesson, or you could intervene with a kid that puts them on a completely different trajectory, completely different pathway, and that's the power we have as teachers, and that's the power education has. I spoke to a young graduate who I didn't teach, but I was in the department and at the school, and she said that she'd reached out to me because she wanted to apply for a teacher training course, and in this conversation, she said, I decided to be a teacher after 30 minutes of Miss Hughes' lesson in year nine. I wanted to be, just sends a shiver, doesn't it? That's a graduate with a first and an MA from Durham and UCL, she's no fool, she doesn't have to say anything, but she said that. I said, I just said, make sure you say that in your interview, because that's the power we have as teachers. You put it out there, and it boils down to how you teach, what you teach, how you talk to kids, and I just believe that there's kids out there that need that second chance, pretty much like I did when I was 16, 18, 25, 30. So it's really powerful thinking about that, the role that you can play, and I don't think you necessarily, probably even always know, do you, the impact that you have? Hearing that story of that young lady who went on to teach, it just, it makes me think of my own schooling, and I, very close friend of mine now, was my teacher when I was at school, so he's Colin Gambles, he's the head teacher at Hutchison's school up in Glasgow, and he was my psychology teacher when I was doing A-levels, and I always say to him, you know, if he'd have been my maths teacher, I would have gone into maths, but he was my psychology teacher, so here I am, and I don't, yeah, and quite what it was, you know, I don't know, we all have different people that we connect with, don't we, but I think it's amazing when you have that, yeah. Yeah, and I mean you, did you reach out to him to tell him that, or did you come across him professionally, or have you kept in touch? He, so I have told him, but no, the reason we got back in touch, actually, was because a few years ago he was looking for someone to do some in-service training, and one of his colleagues recommended me, and it's one of those names to be honest, he was like, ah, so we reconnected then, and actually I was very, I've never been more nervous about doing anything than I was about teaching his staff, because he was the best teacher you could ever imagine, just such an inspiring teacher, so the idea of then teaching his staff was terrifying. Yeah, well I train NQTs and young teachers, and I say to them that it is a tough job, but we can, we can do hard things with teachers, you know, I've given that little mantra, we can do hard things, but I also say there's an incredible prize lying at the heart of teacher, waiting for them in five, 10, 15 years time when a kid comes up to them, a grown adult, and tells them that they are doing what they're doing now because of them as a teacher, because of the way they were, because of the lessons they taught, and I say, I'm pretty securing this, that that would happen at least three times, maybe five times, in the 20-year career, I've had it happen over five times, I've had emails, I've had emails out in the blue, I've bumped into kids, and that, you know, I mean what an amazing thing to, you know, when you think about, you know, what gets you going in the morning, especially at this time, you know, we're in, you know, dark, dark days for teachers, you know, we're all under incredible strain and pressure, but to know that we can still go out there and make that difference is, I find that really empowering, and when people say, well, you know, how can you do that? You know, it's, you know, how can you go back and work with her, and she said that, and it's about, you just wait for that moment when you make that connection, when you say that one thing that makes them think differently about education, and ultimately about themselves, and reconnect with themselves, and hopefully start to realise some of that potential. That was one of the really interesting things when I got to know Colin again, I always want to call him Mr. Gambels. Yeah, of course, I'm sure you do. When I kind of got to know him again, one of the really interesting things about it, so, yeah, in a very brief nutshell, the thing that was special to me about him was that where everybody else saw my problems, and there were a lot of problems I was at that time, like anorexic, self-harming, suicidal, things weren't great, but, and so I was given a lot of leeway, but never by him. He always just thought I was a, you know, bright kid that could do well if I just tried hard, kind of, you know, that kind of vein. But the really interesting thing for me was when I spoke to him about my childhood self, how different my perceptions of me at school, and his, I found that, yeah, maybe there's a podcast in that, maybe I should get him on some time. You absolutely should. I mean, that's an absolute goldmine, isn't it? And, but it is, I do recognise that it is strange, even now, as a teacher professional, certainly, I think, back to the heads that I worked with, and it's hard, you know, to actually call them by their first name, but that's the, you know, the authority that we have as teachers, and, you know, you've got to wield that very carefully, because you do have it, and obviously, you know, sadly, the reverse applies, and if you say things to young people, I did some, some interviews, Pukie, I mean, if, I don't know if you've got time to just mention, I did some interviews on behalf of a colleague that was kind of wanting to know a bit more, you know, the voices of the dispossessed, the voices of the disengaged, and I did some interviews with the young people I was working with. And you know, yeah, okay, you can say, well, take it with a pinch of salt, or they would say that, but I didn't, I didn't prompt them, I asked them very open questions, and they all recounted, you know, those teachers that humiliated them, that shouted at them, that backed them in a corner, one or two even spoke about, you know, physical interventions that led them to disengage and disconnect from school, so the reverse applies, and you know, we have to be careful that what we say and do can, can finish kids off and push kids away from education. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, and of course, with disconnected kids, I mean, there's so much we could talk about, about their unmet needs, you know, I couldn't write, I did, you know, I found it difficult picking up a pen, I remember one student just heartbreaking and then being made to write and he couldn't, and another lad, so often, you know, death, you know, grieving, you know, un, family members lost and ungrieved for, I come across that so often, you know, and young people haven't, and I know this is a problem you know as well that, and this manifests obviously as behaviour, you know, and a call for help in schools, and it's not or it's not, sometimes it's not met, so yeah, I was just going to say just as we come to the end, a lot of people say about, you know, holding young people to account, you know, I've talked about making it exciting, making it interesting, holding a wide space, you know, letting the mistakes go, but I talk about responsibility a lot, I use three words all the time, I've talked a lot about potential and how I start those conversations, I talk a lot about relationships obviously, but I also talk about responsibility and those challenging conversations when, you know, the young person has to own what it is that they've said or done, but what I point out is that if you've got the relationship with a young person, if they trust you, they will have that responsibility conversation about why something's got wrong, why they've forgotten something, why they keep on doing something, even out of a difficult situation, you can find a teachable moment talking about responsibility if the relationship exists that allows that to happen, but sometimes my work gets painted as if there's, you know, it's just free and easy, you know, no rules, you know, come as you are, let's see where we stand, but I do have those difficult conversations as well about responsibility. Because presumably you've got some hard work there to do to not only connect with that young person and help them to find their way, but also to make them kind of world ready, they need to be able to manage not just with you, but back in school or in work or yeah, the world doesn't care about your problems, the world doesn't care, sadly, but, you know, and you're concerned, you know, there's a risk and I say that very tongue in cheek because I absolutely, you know, very careful how I say this, because the last thing you want to be is like, they've heard everything, they've had every threat, you know, they know that life is hard, they've experienced the hard miles, but you know, I talk about the challenge of life, you know, as an adult, we understand that, you know, it is difficult getting up every day and doing a job and looking after your family and getting your exercising and cooking a dinner, it's hard, but it can be done, you know, the human race has thrived, and what I've got up my sleeve is all those stories of people, young people, in worse situations than the students I'm working with, in worse situations than them who have overcome adversity, who have survived and who have thrived, so it's just part of that conversation where yeah, it is difficult, but the challenges of life are the way, as I think of a very famous Roman emperor once said, you know, the obstacle is the way, you know, that life is tough, it's not a bed of roses, et cetera, et cetera, that's not to say I'm empathetic to your struggle, you know, I am, you know, I have these scripts that go, I'm empathetic to your struggle, but the struggle is the point, and what are you going to do to get through that? I talk to them pooky about my running, okay, you can't see the full Mark Goodwin, but I'm not a natural born runner, but I run to keep fit, and you know, I don't want to run at 5.30, 6 o'clock in the morning, you know, but I know if I don't do it then I won't do it, the day takes over, doesn't it, and the day crashes in, so you know, I talk to them and I say that, you know, I have ran long distances, you know, I have done races to challenge myself, and nobody wants to run 13 miles, nobody wants to run 26 miles, you know, idiotic behaviour, but it's a challenge, isn't it, and you know, what do you do in the face of that challenge, and it opens up those sort of conversations, which you know, kids need to hear, yeah, life is very hard, and it's sadly, it's doubly so at the moment. What thought would you like to leave people with as we draw to a close? I think there's two things that have sustained me over these periods of lockdown, and it's just one day at a time, in my work particularly, you know, it's one day at a time, good days and bad days, and you know, you hold on to the good days, but you have to let the bad days go and start fresh, but one day at a time, small steps, small steps. I suppose I've got a bit more time than school has with some students, you know, everything's 110 miles an hour in school, and things have to be done yesterday, and we've got to turn it around, and we've got to get this kid back into class. I've got a bit more leeway in that respect, but you know, find the time to let those small steps be taken and consolidate, but one day at a time, I set myself up and my kids, set the family up for tomorrow. Are we okay for tomorrow? Yeah, we're okay for tomorrow. You know, you've obviously got an eye on the bigger picture, but just concentrate on that one day at a time, and we can do hard things. You know, this is hard, but if you focus too much on how hard it is, it can be, it can overwhelm, and I've got written above my desk, we can do hard things. Yes, life's hard, but we can do hard things, and you have to remind yourself that we will come out of this on the other side. We know what we need to do. We need to keep connected. We need to notice. We need to look after ourselves, and we can do that. We're teachers, okay? We're educators, we can do it.