 I've actually got a slightly funny left elbow as a result of Oh, well, hey, that sounds like a good story to go to I don't know about that. I was trimming in our butas and had climbed the stern thing and it had it had gone off and and I was pull-starting it but some ridiculous spontaneous reason it seemed to make sense to To to use the pull do the pull start with my left arm which instead of my right because of The shape of the tree anyway that turned out that was the wrong choice and I managed to pull something in my At least you didn't like yank the chainsaw over onto yourself and then to Correct bad situation correct How it's everybody good good um I'm just wondering any thoughts on the apple vision pro announcements that you Look at them catch up Anything like that Yeah, I mean I think uh I think it's a smart design. I think it would be a lot smarter if it If it wasn't a virtual uov outside right, I think like That sort of especially because like that was not clear in their advertising I think the persoda thing's a little goofy, right? There's your your chunk of your face Virtually rendered on the front of the thing that when I read that I'm like, whoa, wait, what? Yeah I really I had thought that like it was a see-through in the first like few iterations. I was looking at the stuff there but uh I think that like The mechanism of having the cameras in the device That's really smart right the biggest obstacle is nobody can use a device unless they have a huge amount of room normally Because you have to hook up all the cameras to detect you, right? You don't need that awesome. That's a cool idea Um, I thought it was really interesting that they stuck an m2 chip in there. That's basically a full-on mac book Um, we'll see if it doesn't burn people's faces off. Yeah Many people will throw up a little m2 brand on their forehead But yeah, I mean I think like It's probably the first one of these devices. That's a step In the right direction and I think like The the concept is a good concept, right? Nobody wants to sit and knock off second life without legs Doing meetings Whereas like placing it within the context of hey You're just pulling up more windows inside the real world Or you can enlarge a window or close a window like all of those mechanisms. I think are really cool It'd just be a lot more effective if I wasn't reliant on the cameras to Make sure I didn't trip over my own feet Did anybody manage to sort of count the cameras on the device? Good. I don't know how many cameras are facing inward, but I imagine it's one per eye at least Uh, because it's eye tracking like crazy apparently really accurately Then there's downward there's two. I think two downward facing cameras one under each eye for your hands to catch gestures Then there's at least one forward facing camera because you can use this as a snap Goggles Hey flancian every trouble hearing us all right Come in come in flancian And then uh, it has a lidar camera of some sort also forward facing And I may be missing a couple cameras. I don't know 12 all together 12 Oh, wow two forward facing two downward two side two true depth and four internal infrared four internal plus lidar. So is that 13? Because you said all twos 13 yeah They the the the thing I'm reading doesn't count the lidar as a as a camera, but yeah, I would sort of lump it in there Um, that also it sucks, but I was just gonna say also that it sucks that doesn't work with glasses Wait wait wait But I think um Science or somebody is going to make lenses so that you get you get custom eyepieces if to your prescription if you need glasses But you can't wear glasses and have the headset on No, but but like other vr devices have figured that out by like giving you adjustments to the screen Right in the screen position But here you're gonna have to buy essentially a separate pair of prescription glasses On top of your $3,500 device in order to um Be able to use it if you have glasses and apparently some conditions. It doesn't work on at all. So like, um, I It was reported. I haven't seen them reporting it a bunch of people reported that like astigmatism You can't use it. Uh, it can't track the eye properly. No, come on That's what I saw multiple people report record uh report rather Wow, uh, but it has something to do with like the eye tracking process apparently That's interesting King cameras I I'm okay with it. So the way to say it is not that it doesn't work with glasses. It's that You get to buy your Zeiss inserts Well, that means you get to buy another pair of glasses You don't get to wear that means it won't work that you just slap on any device You have to actually have one that has your lenses in it, right? Yeah, I've got I've got an insert for my scuba mask. Yeah, yeah It's a surprise of admission of using a fancy, you know I I'm I'm okay with that. I like I don't expect my scuba mask to fit these glasses Anyone else with opinions on the apple vision pro not spent? Well, indeed when you order it, uh, you scan your face with some sort of iPhone app So that it can build a so that they can custom manufacture a face sucker For your particular visage. Oh wait. So on ordering you send in a face map Uh, yeah, I think that's how I that's what That's what's in oh, I didn't I didn't I didn't know that it's this Yeah Wow, I thought that was part of it when you initialize it when you get it I thought you'd do a face map in order in order that I could present your face I didn't I didn't think that they were manufacturing anything custom per individual I you know, huh, okay. Yeah. No, I've only seen one piece of information With regard to that and it could be that I misinterpreted. I think I do believe this part of setup so that they can Poorly face map and lip sync you For your avatar and for your outbound imagery But the idea that it has a that it has a display on the outside It's so goofy. I mean, I understand the idea But it just sounds and feels and once you realize that it's like not even a real live image that it's a vr image And you see it in the demos you're like, oh, I see it now and it's goofy But it fools you for a while. You're like, oh look I can see through these things Yes, it well, that's a artifact of very smart video direction. Yeah, I don't think it'll be that way when you see someone wearing it I'm looking forward to the apps that let you manipulate what your pupils look like, you know, like lizard-like reptilian Yeah, I want cheap pupils. They're just really eerie I mean, I think I mean Despite the issue of the first momentation and I actually haven't kept up that much up to date with I think the idea of like having a device that projects out It reminds me a lot of like this science fiction novel I read by Greg Egan, you know, mathematician We're like, yeah, we're like the project like what they call out as I think So essentially you can say express your mood By, you know, how you actually project images from permutation city And this actually diaspora, which is the I read those two and they're all amazing Yeah, so, you know, um, I I guess Yes, I for I remain equally skeptical also of like, um, but this like a luxury device clearly Like a lot of what we have right in there. Yeah, I mean a possibility for a privilege, but like, um Also, like I look forward to see to seeing how people use these to express themselves Nice Yeah, I I also do wonder how like it's going to change some of the acceptable behavior in zoom chats Right, because right now it's is not really acceptable. We actually have someone of my work Who like goes into all the zoom chats with like The emoji mapped thing of a panda bear um Like it's weird and noticeable. I do wonder if like Having dead eyed vr versions of yourself Is going to become acceptable to zoom chats and then like What does everyone do it regardless of whether they're in a face thing or not like I don't know it just reminds me of uh A couple years it when like zoom had just started I was like working on stuff that had me pulled it to a bunch of boring meetings that I didn't want to be in um, and they just I needed to be there to uh Like listen for my name to be called essentially right, right? Um, and all of my video I do in here at home I run through obs um That's what allows you to clip out the background so you can't see the fact I live in a tiny new york's the apartment and Surrounded by the sink directly behind me Lovely, yeah, just the books are like a sort of like on the same topic It's like it's like knowing you a bit by the books. I love that I hope see yeah, I like and I like having the books as the background But when I was in the boring meetings the thing I could do with obs is I just recorded a loop of me looking attentive Yeah, exactly. Um, I was like that back and went went off to do something else Um, and look he's an animated jib Yeah, basically, that's what it is. I mean obviously like if I went around saying that I was going to do that That wouldn't be acceptable, but we're basically talking about a device that does that automatically I had you could nobody's going to know unless you fall asleep, right? That you might be doing something entirely different. Um, in the real world Then you could have the name recognition and poke me in the side subroutine Sorry, flauntin. What are you saying? Can you oh for google meat? You can actually upload a video Oh really so you can do that intentionally in google meat? Yeah, yeah, I mean, um, a good worker did this and it's very cool because like, uh, He filmed himself in the office after going remote before we're going remote, of course And then uh, at some part of the video he actually does like this and like looks over his own shoulder With effect. Yes That's cool Yeah, yes, but like I don't want to like, you know, uh, how about like commercial solicitation here Michael? Yeah Yeah And I want to say quickly that I mean, let's stay the whole hour because I have a fever. So I wait. Yes Yeah, yeah, so I'll make just like a bow out and like a quickly crash, but yes, uh, you have to be here just listening. All right um, I just I was reading something about the apple vision pro this morning and uh, the Meta's headset was $1,500 and nobody bought it and this is more than twice the amount and Unusual for apple usually when apple does an announcement They ship like you could you can kind of click on a button in a month or so and order the thing This ships next year and I was like, that's just really weird So so between the like crazy expense and the expense makes a lot of sense given how much technology is in it And I think there's so much technology in it because they elegantly solved a whole series of extremely thorny problems about Hey, how do we control this thing? Oh forget controllers. We're going to do gesture recognition. Oops. Okay How do we do that? But I think it's Oh, yeah, I think it's more than that though, right like the price makes sense because the oculus has been $1,500 for a device that did nothing plug into your computer And map your movements against a bunch of expensive cameras around your house, right? The difference with this is you are actually buying a full macbook that just happens to sit on your face Um, which I think makes the price go down a little easier Like if I didn't have to worry about the subs if I didn't have to worry about the prescriptions You know, maybe I would consider that because So I a macbook so I wouldn't so I would just want the functionality and I would rather the computing be not on the headset but be off-load off Offloaded somewhere to some other device and bluetooth or whatnot could give you pretty nice communications because The user shouldn't care that if this is a full-blown m2 mac With an r1 new new fangled sensor that's doing all the sensor fusion and everything else like like You shouldn't care that there's that much technology on board and all of that just adds weight and burns energy I mean Oh go ahead I don't um Bluetooth not fast enough. Well, you you do wires. No wires wires aren't fast enough Yeah So the they're they're getting latency issues with a wire to your computer And that's why that's just a power wire that comes down just the speed of the reaching speed of light and latency This is 12 milliseconds. Which should make you be able to wear it without getting sick And the other thing is I don't think the quest actually requires you to have cameras in your house That's a different vr set if I'm remembering correctly. It does have its own Yeah cameras in it just not nearly as many That's interesting. Okay. Yeah, I think it's just like yeah, thank you. I think it's just like The dream is to not be plugged into a desktop computer, right like If you are plugged into a desktop computer, you are anchored And the difference the big difference here and you can see to me advertising right is They don't the the selling point for this is not gaining Right. The selling point for this is You are walking around your house doing your work Wherever you're really gonna walk around with this thing camera projecting into you what your ambient really? I mean, that's the pitch That's the pitch, right? So I think so I think like for that you don't want to be attached to a computer You want to walk around in a meeting? Right, you want to be able to walk around in your own space You don't want to be pulled back by a court, of course It only has two hours of battery power. So that part's not so great And also the only way to enter text unless you feel like doing this on a keyboard is by dictating Which means everybody around you is hearing every message you're sending Well, you can you can bluetooth a keyboard or it pairs with a mac so you can pair it with your existing mac, but like I think it's I think we're the sort of like missing who the intended audience is right I don't think this is the final version of this device by a long shot, right? Like it's this is a toy That you sell to your richest and most loyal users because apple is good at that To fund the next version and the rich loyal users. They're not They're not doing like complicated shit. They're doing zoom calls with their executives and their employees And they're looking at slideshows, right exactly what's in the demo video And for that you want it to work in this particular way And because they're your leaders that'll get other people on And this is that big a leap over the experience. We would have in zoom here With a slide share, you know share screen presentation It's that that much of a quantum leap above. I it's it's a it's a different class of product. So like You imagine putting I I don't but one would one would imagine putting on the headset walking around the house sitting down and flopping yourself down on the couch You've got a movie over here. You've got your laptop screen here You've got zoom stuff over here and you know you grab the zoom stuff and you look at some of these faces And then you put it back you're doing like a whole bunch of like computing stuff in this big expansive virtual monitor, right It's and it's not what we're doing here It's not like getting stuck in front of a laptop with a you know webcam It's just completely different experience and like right now, you know I mean I just I just had the experience of like, oh I wanted to go turn a light on and I had to You know unplug I had to take off my earphones pull out the jack Um, so the speaker would be functioning again So I would hear what was being said as I went across the room and turn on the light come back do this Turn the camera, you know, and I would have been able to do that seamlessly if I would You know wearing this thing and right another thing that I just Wondered about in relation to that. I didn't see the demo, but did I gather that? I mean obviously if there were If there were an external camera on me, it would be seeing me wearing goggles And there's a there's a an ai generated melana. I don't know if it's ai generated, but it's you know A generated image of you as you would look if you weren't wearing the goggles when you're on a zoom call Yeah, that's that's part of the pitch. Yeah. Yeah I mean I do think like The price is intentionally higher probably higher than it needs to be Because they are pricing out all but they're intended audience Right, and then once you get the intended audience on there, they're gonna Influence others to get on one of the comments. I'm the choice architecture So I go ahead Michael The the choice architecture is stuff such that you say Like, you know, this thing is $3,500 and then they come in with the the mass model that's only 1500 Competitive with, you know, Oculus and everybody's going. Oh boy. Apple's got this thing now. That's like less than half price Whereas if they'd come in at the same price as Oculus, it would have been oh, yeah One an interesting comment that Sako by was that this is the apple lisa version of the technology That you know the lisa came in at $10,000 the mac came in at $3,000 And a whole lot of stuff got done in between the two Etc etc. So that's not and and how much was the newton? I compared to the you know the ipod or the iphone. Yeah I think it's more than that, right? I think like they are so It's so focused on anything other than gaming applications, right? So I think what the sale pitch is right you sell this to your it gets sold to your boss And they show up in your next meeting as a virtual person And then when they and then you you want to imitate that, right? Like I don't know if you saw the new the lady who took over twitter, right? She led soul cycle classes in the office and if you wanted to get A promotion you showed up for the soul cycle. Holy crap. So So this is the same sort of thing right you you you're you give it to the bosses and then Everyone else wants to parrot them and that's how you sell it Wow So I think they're playing in the same space as uh as the as the as meta As facebook And they're a whole metaverse play Where ultimately where where that's presumably how it is People logging into the office people being really remote yet get in to enjoy one another's presence in a virtual environment right Yeah, presumably that's where Yeah, this is about kicking meta in the note in the gonads. That's what this is, right You you look at that experience that they demonstrated here versus the meta experience Why would anyone even want to consider the meta experience now? Nobody wants that nobody ever wanted it, but now you've got an alternative Yeah, the meta experience of this sort of like, you know, I don't know How to even describe the level of the graphics that that the Limless zuck was you know Locking around and I thought it was I thought it was really interesting that people were saying that this is the first time that apples introduced a product Where the ceo has not been Visible using the product um, you know when Cook did the apple watch and when jobs did, you know iPhone all those things And and I think one of the reasons might have been how like Obnoxious and stupid it was that zuckerberg featured himself in demonstrating You know his vision of the metaverse like, oh, there's something we don't want to do And I and I mean they've done practice with the really high price point for Celigate as a luxury item before right the first I watch They had models that sold for 10k Right you you price it like a luxury item you treat it like a luxury and you sell like a luxury item so let's say they let's say they um cut the price by three quarters and they triple the battery life to six hours and uh, like, you know make things faster lighter brighter wider um If it's still something you want to use for anything more than a couple hours in a day for some special occasion Is this something you're gonna actually strap on in the morning and where? I mean we it's so hard to tell right how heavy is it how hot is it I just can't imagine wearing a thing all day I mean, I I wear these when I sit and have to read other people have to wear glasses all day long. Okay, good Um, but this is really different from that. It feels to me like Not not exactly the same, but it's a similar kind of question too I'm used to my desktop Why would I carry this little like tablet thing around that has no keyboard and a tiny screen? Why would I do that? What what you know, I can see myself using this for about 10 minutes and then throwing the thing away, right? And what we do nowadays is walk around with our main device often being this little tablet thing Then once in a while we get to dock at a desk with a keyboard and all that kind of stuff And so it's not that you use an an iphone for You know eight hours at the time I can actually use this desktop for eight hours at a time But you use it like continuously a little bit at a time for the whole day and the whole night and the whole day next You know, it's like it lives with you It's it's part of it's part of where you go to interact with the world, right? Agree with everything you just said except directionally the smartphone is smaller lighter cheaper and eminently portable and it gives you the power almost the power of the big The face the the face hugger the face hugger lets you immersively experience 3d world that you cannot experience anywhere else Right, how much will that way so so so really the 3d experience has to be really compelling and I have not seen that yet Flunson, go ahead. You wanted to talk. No, no, precisely I guess what a peter made a point asking how much will the world be projected way In particular if you would only reduce it to projecting say 4k screens in every direction including the ceiling Which is like a I guess a dream You know how much those exploitable way so maybe you know, this is the argument for virtuality You know changing that Yeah, and I mean I do see like If it's not too heavy and it's not too hot Right. I have a giant screen here at home um, if I moved Or I was like traveling and I knew I had to work during travel I'd plug it in and have the giant screen to go because it's on my face um Right like and I could see they had the example of using it in the plane Yeah, yeah, I could definitely use something like that in a plane. You're gonna dictate your emails on a plane Well, I'm not gonna I'm gonna get a bluetooth i'm gonna get a bluetooth keyboard I have a bluetooth I carry a bluetooth keyboard with me already right for everywhere, right? Like it's fine I carry one that connects to my phone and I carry one that connects to my laptop and I put the laptop on a laptop stand Whenever I know i'm gonna be like more than a couple of days and I have to work From home Like a hotel room. I don't I don't see any of those being the obstacle I think the big obstacle is the question of one am I gonna feel like shit using it for whatever reason Motion sickness. It's too heavy. It's too hot. Whatever and two like How does it evolve into alternative? pieces of itself Right once one once your boss has a virtual self in the meeting Everybody's going to want that regardless of whether you're wearing a face hug or not And once anyone gets used to the idea of using hand controls to work at stuff, right? You're going to be plugging in the next version of your camera that we're looking through right now Is it going to be a Like setup that lets me Do stuff like this while during the day and that would be great You know like what happens when you get repetitive motion problems It's because you're stuck in keyboard and mouse position I have a tablet I use for when my mouse hand hurts And I don't even use it as much as I did when I was in like my in like my college years, right? So like An alternative control system that they're prototyping here. That's going to go far. It doesn't have to be strapped on your face It's about the pieces. I think more than it is the whole Oh, once you and then Michael You have your hand Yes, yes. Thank you. I mean, you know just to say uh, Adam also said very well like so just um, I think they Inflict and what we've been going to worse is like the implication of the technology if it works for somebody say like Oh four kids space everywhere Maybe nobody's there yet, but if you can extrapolate and have a relatively high confidence that that that will be unlocked Next year or so on I guess it just remains interesting the interesting the social implications of that In particular as we hopefully get cheaper and more open alternative You know as a as a hardware gets commodified. That's one thing and the other the other is like, I don't know if I am I saw this I at least mentioned as another use case, but recently, uh, personally, um Someone I love how to spend that time in the hospital And it was really really boring in the mobile phone, uh, you know connected here And uh, you know to an extent then, you know, actually made me think of previous hospital stays and how the internet everywhere has changed things I could imagine, you know for some of who unfortunately has to be, you know, uh, secluded, uh, low mobility and or with health issues Uh, this kind of device, you know, uh, it's like a very long airplane airplane ride Um, Sean, do you have background music? Oh Oh, it's cool. You can just mute. I'm There's a music school across the airplane. Oh, nice. I'm gonna start dancing. Why don't we play here? Um, thank you Uh, sorry, Michael go ahead Sure. Um, a couple of things one is I Do you feel like Jerry like thinking about as as you are I get your sort of inability to imagine like, well Why would I want it, you know that much? But For me, I'm not I don't know if I'm speaking for you think about the amount of time you spend in this position and think about the inadequacy of so many of the experiences that you can have with that like distance small thing and like If you're thinking about it as an alternative experience to that as well as an alternative experience to Having to sit in one place tethered to your desktop Um, without being able to walk around with a like keyboard And the combination of those two things both being better I think will Lead people to spend a lot of hours, you know, some some strong combination of the hours that they spend You know with this thing in front of them and sitting at desktop then I I I think the big thing that's We're not even aware of right now is The augmented reality What what augmented reality would be with one of these things on that the closest thing we have is When we're walking around with our handheld device and we read You know a qr code to find out something about something Or we recognize a plant or we you know do all those things There will be so much more of that that's possible when you've got these goggles on like just you know looking At your bookshelf with you know character recognition That like you can say oh, you know, we're looking at the bookshelf in a bookstore with character Recognition that tells you this thing. Okay. Here's like all the information on that your imdb listing For an actor whose face you're looking at. I mean, they're they're probably going to be all kinds of services around giving you information about stuff that you're looking at without having to You know find the thing with the qr code and read it with your I think the order is Sean are on me Uh, I should link to you. What is it? Croquet examples index that html gallery It's it's an instance of um Open of croquet, which is part of the squeak ecosystem um at and it's a collaborative environment where one can actually Actually go through the door behind you when you enter anyway, you can go into the adjacent to sort of factory flora area and you can actually um collaboratively code in the squeak environment um and manipulate the Simulation the factory simulation that's that you're walking around him And I'm just gesturing here at at this whole space pun intended of a new collaborative modalities that are available through that through that kind of metaphor and Um, have we had experience with? Oh, I say called um gather town A several of us have been in gather town meetings. Yeah. Yeah, uh That's a very uh Yes, very cheesy uh gesture at what might be possible right and so one can start to get a sense of What could be cool about uh The vr gatherings uh with gather town, but only just a tiny tiny hint. Um, I think croquet doesn't hurt over Thank you all right Yeah, I also think that there's like I think people underestimate the value of it's not really good name for it. I'm gonna just call it a third screen um A third screen in their environment in terms of giving them other methods of interacting with The computing power, right? So we have our first screen and that's our computer and that has a very stationary effect, right? Even if you have a laptop, you're rarely moving around and if you are in some place weird with it You're probably going to be very uncomfortable because despite being called a laptop. It's really not made for your lap Um, and we have the second screen, which is your light phone device Which is fine, but very limited even if it's very powerful the systems that run on phones make it very difficult to Really use them to get things done Outside of the very small subset of things that are involved piping, right? It's basically typing stuff and even then it's not great for typing stuff, but it's fine, right? and I think like There is a very high value for what I think of as like the third device something that is lightweight that is portable and that is Fairly high powered Right, that's sort of where like MacBook airs sit or are trying to sit somewhat successfully or if you remember like there used to be Like the mini book trend that was around for a couple of years I think I still have one in my closet where you get like laptops that are like this big by this big um And then like I recently got a steam deck um, which is like 10 times more powerful than my desktop computer and only slightly bigger than a nintendo switch Is there a cyberpunk thing a steam punk thing with like do you have to stoke it with coal? No, no, it's the company steam that it's a gaming company. Oh, okay Which is the relief actually sounds less dangerous Yeah, which is the really impressive thing, right? You have this device here, which Is basically rivaling like if I were to put together a computer that could Handle the same level of gaming that this device can it would probably cost like $2,000 easy and the most expensive version of this is 600 dollars, right? Uh, oh, yeah feel better. Yeah feel better fountain Thank you when I see you Let's read you But like this sort of device and this one also Only two hours of battery life on the steam deck When you're really using it But it has a lot of value and my like light because it is a heavy it is a A powerful device that I can still Pick up and move around with um And it turns out that like I didn't think it would have a lot of value in that sense But it turns out that it does have a lot of value that once you have something that's like that That sits between your phone and your computer in terms of efficacy It opens up all sorts of different modes of interacting with digital artifacts um and I think that like This this device that apple has launched It's not going to be that yet, but I think like you can't get to there from here Without some middle steps and I think that's a middle step Cool Well, and the whole AR modality is Is is essentially unexplored In terms of its real potential, right? So um, so yeah This thing is hands-free, right? So so you can be in the kitchen working on whatever and and still be you know Reading consuming media interacting with people And so on effective well if your hands are tied up cooking or kneading dough I'm unclear that you can actually gesture or or select things you could watch things no problem You could be on a call, but you couldn't mute the call Because you'd have to clean your hands and make it Clean you have to make your hands It can detect when you pinch right so you can be covered with dough maybe and uh and stuff Let me throw a few things on here. I'm hoping that link works. I don't know I wasn't I'm trying to screen share something so in 1992 I started a research service called continuous information environments That link is the scope diagram to that service. And if you look there, you'll see I was writing about all the piece parts that make up the smartphone except I didn't invent the smartphone. I did not see it coming We were writing about feature phones everything had a keypad on it and a tiny display And all that kind of stuff and all of a sudden, you know, this guy steve jobs Sort of slave drives a bunch of really brilliant people to go Not only glue together a bunch of stuff that hadn't been glued together much before But then send off all the hard edges so the thing didn't have a blue screen of death It felt like a river stone I mean to me like I was in the neighborhood looking and I did not predict The iphone in 2007 Um, I thought cameras on a mobile phones before that before that we were starting to see some cameras on phones I thought they were a distraction. I thought they were basically the cell phone companies Trying to get us to use up more bits on their network. I was really wrong about that I didn't like the ipod the original ipod going color. I was like black and white fine What the hell's up with this color thing color such a waste of energy and I don't know color I was totally wrong about that I was right about 3d tv. I was right about a whole bunch of other kinds of things And rm when you mentioned ar if I find it really interesting because pete was saying look at what the demo was At w w dc They demoed zero ar they have some very interesting things about you can there's a knob where you can dim out your ambient Environment and replace it with whatever ambient environment you want Which means you're just going to whack people because you're going to forget where you are but You can sort of see your neighbors kind of or not and that's being regenerated in front of your eyes It's it's just you're just tuning which camera you're paying attention to or which you're just tuning actually which Generated image you're paying attention to or or transmit that that's really interesting right because I didn't realize it has side cameras Because you can't look to your side, but you sort of can't it's a little bit like the Helmets in the f 35 fighter jet now let you see all around the aircraft So modern modern jet fighters have heads up display that let you do this And there's enough cameras on board that you actually in real time can do that Go ahead I just disagree. I think the whole demo was ar right how like In theory, that's how ar is supposed to work. You have the real environment And you overlay it with nothing was overlaid on the real Sorry, there was an overlay, but there was no anchoring meaning if you were to get up and move around And I wonder, you know, how do you decide this if I if I get up and leave the couch Does my display stay over there or does it mind me to play move with me? I bet you that's a ui option Yeah, and I bet you that's a confusing you I bet you that's a confusing you option because I tried using multiple desktops in mac os Total loss for me cannot use multiple desktops did not understand how to make that work at all And I've used other screens. I we just bought an external display for for april Who is just using it basically as like a slideshow screensaver right now because How do I get my mouse over there? It's oriented where It's like kind of hard to figure out to manipulate them So so I think that extra screen real estate is super useful I've never figured out how to conquer that sucker in some way and I think it takes Somebody who's willing to devote some some brain overhead To sort of sit with that and and do that and then then you can kind of lick it And then like folding phones who thought a folding phone would be anything I would never buy a folding phone. I haven't seen the use case at all But you know, you got to do some fancy stuff at some point. So We haven't talked about like contact lens sort of Computing and there's people actually researching contact lens displays Kind of interesting don't know but but for me if you could boil this thing down to a contact lens size I guess I'd use it. I don't know I don't know that I want to be putting stuff in my eyes every morning kind of thing No, I want it to this size. That's where the optimal situation is for me. Yeah Well, I want the ability to take it off and put I mean that the work one thing that seems really bad to me is You know, when you're holding your phone like this That's that's all you have to do. I mean the idea that you have to like Take off this encumbrance to deal with something else seems the biggest Well, I mean that's that's why you can see the outside in it, right? So you don't have to take it off, right? The dream of this device is you don't ever take it off. Wow I mean, that's what it that's what they presented in their demo video that they Never great see other people's faces again. Yeah, the guy has it on he sees stopy in the future for me I'm just saying he sees the outside. He plays ball with his kid while he's working on a spreadsheet You know, he projects the video screen larger And 40 years from now they'll laugh at that demo because look how clunky the gear was back then Yeah, I think it does steve man and his itapa technology. I mean they guys be Living like that essentially what is it 30 plus years, right? It's crazy. Sorry. I mean, what a pioneer I mean, I just think it's this is the on ramp for the rest of us to be able to you know, yeah Eventually get there. Yeah, I just like that's the thing Like I have always been a big screen space person and having fundamentally infinite screen space is something I could get a lot of use out of personally I talked like and what was interesting to me is one of the people who I talked to who Instantly was like I would use the hell out of that as some art artists Right, which are always have always been apple sort of core thing Right, you if you can hook it up to a tablet Then it makes it very easy to sketch to move things around to pin The stuff that you're basing off of and that makes sense to me I mean Well, I'm looking at here is one very large screen, which I always fill up But connected to this laptop. There is a second screen that's up there And then on the other side of me is another computer With four more screens for I I fill them out. Yeah of varying sizes. So right this minute you just described you have six screens in front of you Yes, yeah, I mean I have to turn to get to the one over here Um, but like I find it very useful to have the full range That's impressive. I use them all. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you I I use three often and and that's like it's great and you know I I actually I accidentally ejected myself From the meeting when you were going on about how terrible that seemed and I was just about to say Okay, boomer Well and I was as I was describing earlier, I missed a bunch of turns, you know early on I was like Who the hell is gonna want cameras on cell phones? That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard I don't think I thought it was that stupid, but um, oh look We go screens here So, yeah, there's there's four here of 4k 43 in the middle as the main display and flanked by a couple of 4k 27 28s and then with a goofy little 8 inch display down here for you know, sort of skate social media things Because basically, yeah pixels Our eyeballs are the fastest channel to the brain, right? And so the more pixels the better But I I'm so distractible. How do you stay focused with that much material around you? How do you stay focused? Yeah, what you have to do is is perform tasks Basically task switching to jump around between between means different desktops well So so when when doing heavy developing, you know, most of my central screen is emacs emacs emacs, but then You know, there are debuggers. There's there's there's doc. Oh, you took a picture of your setup. Thank you. Yeah there's there's, you know, the The interface that I'm actually working on there's you know, so there's there's at least You know five or six different domains of information that are That are needed and and yeah when when when one is dealing with rivers of code Well, you want to see it you want to see everything in scope, right? Because if you can't see it all well, then what are you doing? You're you're having to actually interact with You're having to do in effect window management To to access information and if instead it's all there painted on on the retina. Basically what you're doing is you're expanding your functional Short-term memory Yeah, and I would it's like Oh, I was just going to add A really great example of this if you haven't had a chance to use it yet is the arc browser I just got an access code for it and it instantly clicked for me And the biggest feature that instantly clicked for me was one Space management so you can have a bunch of tabs in one space And then dismiss them and go to a different space But more than that right like here, let me switch to something that That doesn't matter. You can see my anonymization code. I'm working on for work Right. So like here is what it looks like When I'm working on right, so there's uh We're I'm building like a tool to anonymize facebook events here Right, so I can split it and then if I need to check like the facebook documentation I'm going to make this bigger and then I'm going to just go and uh, that was the wrong one All right, Gentis here and then add another window here So are you tile different things together? Yeah, right see so now I could do that and if I need to switch back to my tickets Looks like federally those Yeah, there's my tickets, right I can look up documentation on its own thing And if I want to take a break, there's a different space here for like fun stuff I can go check my blue sky account or It's just somebody You're up on to this thing too But one of the cool things is like when it's a new window it pops in a little thing You can choose whether right like it's all like wait tools for window management um Because yeah, you want to I I don't know I want a lot of stuff in front of me I know it ain't for everyone but for me, it's great So so yeah, this this this 3d metaphor makes it possible for us to basically combine the memory palace to to instantiate the memory palace right as a means of access to uh, to The data the one so so one can task switch Sean has my son has frozen Um, you were back you froze on us for a second Did my voice freeze too? Yes. Yeah Oh, how awkward so so basically one can one can tool around in a three space rendition of one's memory palace um to to get to localize One's uh one's information access. I I mean I walk over to the shop walk over to the kitchen walk over to the you know Collaborative, you know walk over to the ogm Room, right? Are you are you talking about like the the screens as manifestations? Yeah. Yeah That's the thing I was going to say is like, you know when I have multiple screens I can concentrate better because I can concentrate completely, you know, I You know, I'm mousing stuff dragging stuff off The the screen I'm focusing on so I'm only focusing on one thing It's a lot less cluttered than what I have to deal with when I have like You know my browser in 16 tabs and finder windows and you know Some other apps running on an individual screen Which this feels real junky Yeah Yeah, I I am I'm kind of delighted to discover that three of us are three plus monitor humans meaning Uh, three of us have at least three monitors, you know in their preferred mode for for working I'm a one monitor guy kind of would would have an extended monitor, but Move around so much with my machine blah blah blah I'm pretty happy with one and I'm way too distracted just with a number of tabs I have in a single Chrome window because I don't even do multiple instances of chrome What do you think about what michael said though? Which part I've got two I've got two screens and I've got two other ones that I don't really use around me Okay, I was just about to ask you what you what you have but um I I use two screens and what michael said is You know you drag you drag something to that screen and then you can focus on it on that screen And it's not cluttering up this screen or vice versa, right? I I agree with michael. It's actually less cluttered more screens you have because it gives you real estate to Filter out the stuff that you don't need on whatever screen that you want to focus on right now So interestingly Everything you just said I would say is a virtue of maximizing your current application on one screen And not letting anything distract you and then yeah, I really agree and you can switch endless If you if you simply if you have two places or three places you can maximize a screen to then You don't like you're not paying attention to three screens at once. You're always paying attention to one screen But it's easier to flip back and forth between a physical screen than flipping the maximized version of whatever you've got on one screen You're doing an interesting thing in your head that you're virtualizing. You're essentially virtualizing I have endless I have endless screen real estate in my head because I know that I have an endless number of tabs That could switch to on a single screen Wait when when the task that you're working on has multiple facets, right that you need to interact with simultaneously documentation You know debugging the code the interface, you know in things, right? Well It doesn't it isn't it a violent disruption of flow to have to sort of find yourself Decay Switching around between windows I think if I did I I don't write code so I don't have reasons I don't have reasons to have documentation open next to this next to that I think that and I generate I generate pros And I do some simple video editing if I did more complicated video editing I'd want to have a lot of real estate to put all the different pieces that I'm working with or whatever up But I don't I don't know that I have activities in my life that Every now and then I'm like damn. I wish I had a little bit more real estate right now to to do x or whatever and It's really interesting I mean, you know think about it this way. It's like if you're very let's say you're very used to working on a kids school desk And if you were suddenly introduced to a gigantic work surface What would it would it really Overwhelm you so I take the same stuff you're working on the kids desk and you'd spread it out nicely So you had some room to work on the one thing you're working on And maybe you'd even have two projects that were halfway done They were in different places on the counter and you know, I mean, it's just like it's just space Yeah space that you can control Really easily and we it's really big. I mean, haven't you had ever had the experience of like you're working with A web page that you're cutting and pasting something From and you're doing it into a like a word doc or you know, whatever I mean, you're doing different things and you're having to make windows be half the size of your screen and your browser You know, and then you've got to zoom It's just why there's no need