 Awesome. And we are live. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another product school talk. I'm Cassandra just want to make sure that you guys can see and hear me. Okay. So if you can hear me, go ahead and type in book into the comment section, and you'll get a free copy of our, our recently released the product book. We'll make sure you get one. Okay, well, as many of you know, it looks, well, it looks like, yeah, we're working well. So as many of you know, we teach product management coding and data now across 14 campuses. So we've just recently launched seven new campuses, five within the US, one Toronto, another one in London. So today's speaker is going to share some insights into product management over at LinkedIn. So I'd like to welcome Christian visa. Hi, nice to, nice to meet you, everyone. I don't know who is there if there's even anyone but I assume because you just said there were people commenting that there is someone. Yeah, I just take it for me I guess right so I just dive into my presentation right away. Sure, absolutely. And just a just a quick reminder to everybody following Christian's presentation we are going to open the floor for q amp a so you can feel free to type in your questions into the comments after so Christian I'll let you take it from here. Thank you so much. All right, just share my screen quickly. Yes. Well, all right. Perfect. Cool. So yeah, the talk is about 10 Commandments of international product management because I work actually on the international side of LinkedIn. And before that just a quick background so I used to work for this startup and we got acquired by Adobe, not by Photoshop obviously because it was a digital marketing company and we built basically stuff around Facebook advertising so very vertical approach in the sense so think about you spend a lot of money on Facebook and you want to have some extra tool that manages that spend so the solution from Adobe was basically doing that next to a bunch of other stuff. So basically Facebook ads was part of my life for a couple of years in San Francisco and then LinkedIn basically knocked on my door to start that in between I also started a company here in Germany and actually right now in Munich. And it's a conference held in Hamburg once a year we had this year about 26,000 guests so next to being a product manager basically have some like a side project and this guy and some of you may know it's nice that was one of our speakers this year so kind of projects on the side, but let me dive into what I'm doing at LinkedIn so again, two years ago LinkedIn knocked on my door and said hey Christian you're a product manager you are from Germany. You live here in San Francisco, don't you want to like do Germany for us and basically the challenge for me was initially to understand what that really means. So instead of we've been responsible for some product what I was in the past. So I think then actually now Microsoft is as many of you know and Germany is the market that I'm responsible for technically the entire region of and Germany but really only Germany because it's kind of the market that we think about most. And we have this local competitor there that is kind of in front of us so we need to go after them. And the question was then when when they asked me like okay you want to do you want to be responsible for region as a product manager and that's basically the first part of my presentation, the difference between vertical and horizontal product management which was somewhat new to me at that stage and then afterwards I will dive into the ten rules that kind of developed over time. So what does vertical product management means? If you think about product management usually you know you're responsible for some kind of slides of the pie meaning you're responsible like in my last job for Facebook advertising for example or if you think about LinkedIn as a product many of you probably use and know we have product managers that are responsible for the company page or for messaging or for feedback events or like for some of our recruiter products so you are always organized in a very vertical way and that means you are kind of the expert for that particular field you know everything about it you don't think anything else you try to bring that product forward and that is usually you know comes with the ownership with the responsibility so you really like push that product forward and of course if you are that person in part of a big organization you work with other teams as well but you are that one expert that really works on that particular field and then when they can ask me to run Germany in a sense from a product perspective they were like okay you know you have the responsibility but not really the authority because you're just responsible for the market but not for the actual product so horizontal basically means that you are responsible for this market itself and the market has its different challenges right as I mentioned earlier we have a local competitor here in Germany and being not the number one in the region we are facing basically completely different challenges from what you are facing elsewhere in the world because you know it's not that LinkedIn comes to mind when you think about business networking so it's not only that you exchange one part of the product but you literally own kind of the entire experience end-to-end meaning you need to think about onboarding, you need to think about the marketing strategy, you need to think about business development partnerships, you need to think about pricing and all these different variations within the product need to be prioritized next to each other and then the big question is what is more important right? Is it more important to change the price or is it more important to optimize the onboarding flow to get new members so typically or most companies that I talk to that also have these challenges to go abroad and go international have like or define a true north metric that you go after and then you try to align the entire company with all the different teams that you work with to go after the target so for us for example it's just sign ups right now so we need to try to focus on growth on member growth because we are just simply not the number one network in the region so you need to like really align all the different teams towards a true north metric and the interesting part is in a global organization that like especially with American companies usually have some kind of matrix organization so that means marketing we call them to marketing, we call them to BD product into product and so forth so the issue was basically that globally LinkedIn doesn't care so much about member growth anymore I mean we still of course care about member growth but our main objective for our true north is more engagement so we want to have the existing members take on the platform so that they have daily use cases to use our products to get to know our feed and basically create daily use cases but in Germany we're at a different stage so if the marketing department for example thinks that globally we run a marketing campaign in Germany that might be completely different here because we're just at a different stage so instead of being responsible for just one slice of the pie and working on your one product you suddenly have all these different challenges across all these different organizations and it's also one of my roots that I will talk about but suddenly you have the responsibility but you don't have authority authority necessarily and so that's one of the reasons why I for example travel here quite a bit so I just counted today because I did it all hands here in our Munich office I was nine times in Germany this year because it just requires lots of face-to-face time and instead of you know just like doing video conferences and working with people in a room you suddenly have to bridge like oceans in between and it doesn't apply to Germany like any other market that you go to and instead of being like this specialist in one area you suddenly become this like general manager about the entire experience and that brings completely new challenges but it's also tremendous fun you know because when you're in this vertical world you kind of are this one expert like in my past job I was just working on Facebook ads and of course you know you kind of get to know everything about it but also you just read and think and talk the entire time just about the same topic and I really enjoy working in this because in the morning I can think about marketing during the day I can think about you know like onboarding and in the evening we think about pricing so you have way more challenges and you learn so much more because we work with so many more teams together but again it is much harder because you have to align all these teams to go after your target and especially if they have a different manager and have a different structure that they report into and their managers again tell them something different it's just always this challenge of aligning these teams and that's why you have to go there actually quite a bit but let me go into basically the 10 rules that I kind of identified for myself and it's funny because I kind of gave a similar talk like this in the past like when I worked at Adobe where I was not a horizontal product manager but like on the vertical side so I also defined these like 10 rules of what I think like product management should be and what you should work on and then over time I realized that it's completely different so these 10 rules that I have today and I think I'm not necessarily the 10 rules that apply maybe for Euro as a product manager or another product manager yet for maybe the future product management role that you have so take these with a grain of salt and remember that my position is probably a little bit different from most PM rules but if you are in the position of working in some kind of international organization and you need to take your product abroad either be a small startup or a big organization then this may apply to you or maybe not to fall off you so let me get into the 10 so the first one is built relationships within the company I found this tremendously important probably the most important thing of all of them that's awesome why it's number one because again you are not responsible for any product in the sense right you are responsible for the market so one good example like we changed the premium price for LinkedIn in Germany so we had a competition we had found out that Germans just don't like to pay as much for digital services so we realized that we had to adjust the price you can't just apply adjust the price you need to kind of build the relationship with the team that is responsible for the pricing and then kind of motivate them that this is actually something that we should do I mean in our case I have engineering myself so I have basically a team of about 10 engineers that I can go to these teams and say hey we would like to change the price I bring my engineering along but then there's still you know agreement that you need to create and you can only create this if you have the relationships with all these different teams so a big part of my time is like doing road shows across different teams so the last couple of weeks for example I just met six, seven different teams and went to all the engineering, you excel at science, all the different teams just to tell them what are we doing in Germany, why are we doing it, why is it different from the rest of the world and what is basically our strategy to kind of align them and later when I actually want to work on one of their projects then kind of have that relationship so that's why really number one the relationship piece is really the most important piece the second time and you see it right now I'm in Munich spend time in market one thing that I realize is also that you should also just go by yourself if you always like organize trips for others or if you go like in a group then kind of become very quickly that person that is kind of the organizer the trip organizer which is also great fun great stuff that you do with people but kind of tend to do this or just within the company you spend a lot of time with your colleagues but what you really want to do is you want to be in market to spend time with the extra users and not just with your colleagues in the evening having a beer right you want to talk to people from the industry you want to kind of network you want to go to events and if you just go with people that you already know you might not get the most out of it so that's why again I traveled to that region to really understand it if you're not like originally from it so I mean it helps that I'm German by myself and I kind of know certain things that are just different here in the market but again like go by yourself as well position just by yourself and the next one is also related to travel so of course it depends on how big the company is and what budget the company has but at LinkedIn we realized that organizing trips for other people to bring them into the market is really useful so we have other key markets as well at LinkedIn so China and India for example other areas where we have a dedicated product and engineering team and we learned in these markets that it's tremendously helpful to bring all the way up to like our CEO and and and other product executives and just people that work on products that are somewhat open for the area into the region so once a year I take like 10 to 15 people with me travel to Germany go from city to city have a bunch of meetings set up with like clients and customers and but also users with people that don't like us with people that like us to make kind of bring this understanding and that kind of feeds into number one right if you organize amazing trips for people then you also can build good relationships of course and generally like having trips is they seem like a long offside in a sense where you go for dinner for a couple of days and then the relationship found you really well within the organization to execute those well. I alluded to this one earlier that you need to create a true north what I add here is that you need to defend it I mentioned it's early already that global organizations may have a different true north than the one that you have defined for your region. Again like if you go into a new market you might be in this situation where you know you want to grow members rather than having them engage because you to build members first before you can engage them so it is really hard to kind of really make sure that you have that one true north that you go after and when you go after that really prioritize and try to get other stuff out of your way especially if you in my case for example have already a team on the ground so when I first joined we had about 30 people here on the ground and sales you know suddenly they realize okay there is someone that can help them can fix all their needs and but those needs are maybe not necessarily towards your true north metric there for me again like we want to create sign ups and may have issues in some of our B2B solutions to kind of share these things away from you and you need to learn I think as any product manager you need to learn how to say no and prioritize things but especially I have the feeling in this field where you have so many different areas that you can tackle and fix you really need to like focus and go after you true north and defend it. One other thing that is tremendously important I think also again as almost any product manager that you need data access and if you if you're not a data scientist yourself or if you don't have the abilities to like pull data out of data and if you can write SQL queries and those kind of things and you need to have someone that you work with very closely and you can trust in because it's a difference if you go to some other team and tell them you know in that market we have I don't know like half as many messages that people receive and because of that we need to do this and that right so if you always come from a data standpoint rather than like yeah like messaging is broken at the market you kind of create a much better trust with other people because they have the feeling you know what you're talking about so I just like recommend that you work with either like if you have the skills by yourself always from a data standpoint first or if you don't work with your data scientist or analytics counter problem and then this applies to every feature that you build right so it's always about sizing prioritizing and then by that you have a much better standing within the company. Number six is pure execution. Again like if you travel a lot if you spend lots of time with other teams and building relationships it's also very easy to lose track of your actual north again because there's so much stuff that you need to defend and declare and like work with other people and align people. But in the end you also need to make these changes so I think the execution itself is just something I mean again in any product job something that you just have to do and even if it's something that may be annoying and you need to like go through some like manual exercises to put certain things through like I remember when we first drawn we had like a massive issue with like translation of titles so just made the decision to like translate those titles manually myself and just a couple of thousand titles that I just went through because I knew like if I had to wait until some smart person would do this like very like in scale with like machine learning or whatnot you know then it would have taken us weeks or months and I knew if I just sit down for like two days in a row I could do this much better so I think always that as a product manager sometimes you just need to like get shit done and I mean probably that applies to any job in the sense but especially as a PM I think it's very important to lose track of that. One other thing number seven here is that you have the challenge international markets that your audience might be much slower I mean I don't know how and what products you're working but usually at least at LinkedIn whatever we do we test it first right so we have all these ab detesting capabilities in place and you ramp a new feature to a certain percentage so let's say you optimize a certain onboarding flow so you ramp that new onboarding flow that you develop to 1% and keep the rest to see if something is happening and you may ramp it a little bit higher and you ramp it a little bit higher. The problem in the market where you don't have as any data points is that you just don't get to this dead sick resides as fast right if I have like 100,000 people a day on a certain feature I can realize very quickly if that change is actually making an impact or it's not making an impact. So in regions when you internationalize you have the challenge that you don't have as many data points so you actually have to, you know, keep those experiments if you have running a bit longer. And it's always pained yes right because you have all these great ideas and you build something you ramp it like maybe 10% 20% and then you have to wait and you literally have to wait for like two three weeks sometimes you can make a decision but you make the decision too quickly on you may not be able to really understand the impact of the experiments that you just went. Number eight, report your wins even more. That is something that I was really bad at and I'm still like in full of learning but you would test so many things and usually you work on a product that is already highly optimized but it's not that you know the onboarding flow was just invented for like last week but usually it was already there for a couple of months or years even, and now you go into a new market and you think that you optimize it. Then when you have these wins, you need to celebrate them because if your managers don't know that you have these wins, you're like getting questioned very quickly because in going international is expensive. If you have not only the cost of the team that works on you, we have the trouble cost you have all the translation costs, and sometimes people forget that also when you individualize stuff for that particular region that you can also ramp it to other parts of the world. But that's why it's so important to celebrate these wins and report them so that people have the feeling that the team is actually doing something and you know, good examples. If you work for a vertical product, it's very easy to see what you do because you ramp, I don't know, new buttons or new features to something or let's say you're responsible at LinkedIn, for example, for messaging and you add smart replies to a feature, you know, it's very easy to see. But when we ramp features, we kind of switch little things back and forth within the onboarding flow, change the positions of button that are not very like big wins and then you kind of increase your signals for like 0.3%. And it's a big win for that particular market, but globally it doesn't seem like a big impact, but people need to know what you're doing. Otherwise, they quickly forget what you're doing. Number nine is that you need to invest also into the value for your members and customers. We quickly forget that because we see like lots of bugs that we want to fix and we have the two nodes that we are going after, but it's not only about that, right? You also need to think about the differences in market. And one thing, for example, that we also only realized recently at LinkedIn was that Germans love to congratulate other people to their birthday. It's hilarious. Like, nowhere in the world, people like to congratulate or receive birthday messages on scale, but in Germany, like everyone loves it. Everyone wants to wake up in the morning, get some email reminders to send people birthday reminders. I think, and we don't even ask for the birthday really. I mean, there's a fear you can fill it out, but that's something that is for some reason valuable. And me as a German alone, I just counted today because we discussed this. Like, I can sing six birthdays songs by heart. And I could like, it's just something that people do in this country. And for people here, it's very valuable to get from their business context like a birthday reminder. So that is something that I kind of almost define as a valuable product that you have to do that is completely unapplicable, like for any other reason. Like we had like, at a larger meeting today and we kind of made this fun, like even in the Netherlands, like just across the border basically before the birthdays, who wants birthdays like in the U.S. People celebrate their birthday week before the actual birthday happens. If you did that in Germany, everyone would be like, Oh my God, this is like bringing bad luck. So don't I would never do this. So there's something where we bring values to build teachers for that market that is where it is so different. So just, you know, don't only do the valuable, like go after your true north stuff, but also go after like really value that kind of keep people long hours for you. But again, it's like about this prioritization and like kind of sparkle back and forth or the resources you have. And then the last one, it always sounds a bit like negative, but I literally constantly have to justify my existence. Or the right of existence that I have because, you know, sometimes not everything works as you expect right you have again a highly optimized product that was built maybe over a couple of years and then you try lots of stuff and then maybe it doesn't work right now. Every experiment works really well. I remember when I first joined. I thought we are guests from page or if you just, if you log out and go to LinkedIn.com. I mean, I really don't do that because I just like pretty ugly. But that page I thought of America that must be so easy to increase the conversion rate on that page and we got tons of traffic on that page and we tested so many things like probably like 20 different variations or even more. And nothing needed at all. And then questions suddenly what are you doing like three months on this and nothing happened. So, you need to justify basically what are you doing and again it goes back to this. Also celebrating your wins, but you need to kind of come up with reasons why what you're doing is also very valuable and one other. Another thing that also helps you a lot is that you don't only work for international right so even though I focus on Germany, every feature that we built for example we built also for the US or for any other market. So we built everything in English pretty much and then translate it also to German we tested in Germany first, but if it works, we also wrote it out elsewhere on the road and that we bring basically that impact also to the rest of the company. And there's also something that helped us tremendously in the past where we have really big wins and then we were able to ramp them elsewhere in the world by that basically just to find again, our, our, our existence in the team. So I think that that basically concludes my list. I have just two more quick things for you so there is this awesome article on fast company that I recommend it's a couple of months old, but great article about how Facebook data science, which millions of users there's a link in my my site, check that out and then there's one other article that I love, which is this good product managers that product managers this like super super old. So this is from like, it doesn't, it's not the order I think it's like 10 15 years old or something. And the funny thing is that whenever I read this I feel how bad as a product manager, I am, because there's so many things that I don't do as this person suggests but it helps you to remind yourself what I would like with habits. And then just recently, I gave a talk similar to this and someone said hey did you see this is new article and so this is new article. It was just written over this year actually from last year, but I only found it like a couple weeks ago. And there's this person that kind of picks up on that original article 19 years ago where it was written initially and kind of makes an updated list to like modern product management from nowadays so I just highly recommend reading these articles because they really help and reflect and again anytime I read these articles I realized okay I still have to learn a lot and there's a bunch of stuff that I could do better but yeah I think that's all for my end. You can find me on the link obviously and yeah if you have any questions. Awesome thank you so much for the presentation I love that you mentioned birthdays too and about those small details that really make things more valuable to everyone. Great so we had a few questions come in on on Facebook so I'd love to get a couple of those answers as long as we have some time here so let's see. There was there were a couple questions in regards to what you mean by true north and if you could give some examples so for example from Pat and Michael. Could it true north be revenue or conversion and can you can you elaborate a little bit more on that. I mean every company very is a different true north. I can just say like what we have. I mean for some reason for some companies it's a number of engagement at LinkedIn we call that engaged quality member so basically a member that is somewhat engaged so we have different variables that we define like how often he logs in and how many context he has and how valuable he is for for the platform so it doesn't necessarily mean that we need new members that become an engaged quality member also existing dormant members basically that signed up in the past but never really came back could become that so that's one true north metric that we have of the company but then again like what I mentioned earlier is that for Germany itself we have I have personally just already signed up so basically sign ups that are somewhat of a high quality and to answer your question. You know your true north can be anything that you want as soon as as long as you kind of align the company after that sort of revenue or conversions, whatever whatever you define basically becomes the true north metric. Okay, awesome thank you for, thank you for sharing more on that. Another question this one is from Pat as well how much SQL or data analysts do you do on a daily basis and how often are you explaining things to different teams and how important is it to convey your thoughts and words clearly. Yeah, so on the SQL part. I'm luckily not that often so I have a background in business I say just business administration in university so I'm not like a technical person per se but I kind of am able to get access to terror data and have a couple of script that someone else wrote and type it in there and like how to tweak them a little bit but maybe like once a week or so I pull some report down and fortunately I'm in a company where I have the resources that are much better at that so I can just like them and then they do it for me so that's a fortunate situation. Now I forgot the second part. How, how, yeah, how often are you explaining things to different teams and how important is it to convey your thoughts and words. Yeah, so on the other teams and literally every day. That is, it's most, I mean, it's again it's like the international part right where some something comes up like almost every day where you want to ramp a new feature and you're so excited about it and then someone else comes around and so we stop like supporting this and we don't think that this is right and I'll explain it again that I did this road show across all the different teams that just started doing that just started doing this this quarter and I found this tremendously helpful, especially not only talking to pms that I usually did but also to the engineering counterparts with their designers so that kind of like all the important people in that particular org understand. And then the last piece on like how to articulate yourself I think that's in general one of the most important pieces and for me as a non native speaker that I mean it's probably like the biggest challenge to like speak really clearly and what you want and get to the point very you know, don't like just like talk about some unimportant stuff first that goes back to also this, this point of like come up with data first so it was also something I had to learn first I tried to convince someone that I kind of start the argument with some numbers with some percentages where people have this feeling that I he knows what he's talking about. So I think it is very important to like be really clear. Again, I mean we have, we have about 180 product managers at LinkedIn, I would say only half of them are probably from the US and the rest of them are somewhere else from the world so languages. It's certainly not something that should stop. But I think it's probably one of the most important pieces in the job every day. Yeah, absolutely absolutely agree with that as well. Here we have another question from Loanis regarding execution. Do you directly guide the engineers engineering teams towards and implementation or is there one or more product owners or other role who do that so that you can focus more on marketing or user research or product strategy roadmap, etc. Yeah, so at LinkedIn we have basically always a product manager teamed up with an engineering manager. So remember as a product manager you usually, you usually unless you get into like the manager track as a product manager starting like after a senior group or not manager, you usually don't have direct reports right so you have a bunch of dotted lines makes alignment even harder because you can come into the room and talk to the marketing folks and tell them all day long what they should do they have to do it from a manager standpoint right so because they report to the marketing organization and engineering the same thing. That's why relationships are so important. It's why I built relationships with each one of my engineers and really like try to understand what they are doing also but then again you know you don't go to an engineer in your team and ask them hey can you do this for me you have sprint planning you align with your engineering manager and what you want to do. And anyone can come up with ideas and that is also being prioritized but you know I never tell anyone what to do I, you know it says like leading by questions is always what I say so you, you kind of, yeah, like try to to basically kind of create this vision of why people and then you work with your engineering counterpart and then he tells people what to do and it's a nice thing that you don't have to do all these one on one and talk about like personal problems of people and to think about like how should I increase the salary and all this kind of like manager stuff. So I really enjoy not having like a huge amount of direct reports like my engineering counterpart is like 16 17 direct reports I think and if you just think about the time that he needs to spend and one on once with with these people. I truly enjoy that I don't have to do these kind of things and really can focus on like the strategy of what we actually would like to do and work with other teams to actually get stuff done so that's my answer on that. Right exactly well empowering them to do their, their, their part as well. Awesome, we have time for just maybe one or two more questions so this one is from far Bob. What are some data and analysis tools that you suggest for product managers for example like tablo or for PowerBL. Yeah, yeah so I work with both. I'm not a big fan of tablo because it's very buggy this how we have it set up I have a feeling so I'm in a fortunate situation that we have our own developed solutions at LinkedIn so we basically have, yeah, I call this like repertoire kind of internal solution that we have an engineering product team that just built that for the LinkedIn case, which is really powerful because it has access to all the data. PowerBI I used together with like marketing folks because you can like feed in very nicely and very easily just data, data feeds, Excel files pretty much as these beats, and then you can like individualize it very very well. I almost think in marketing story like one of the most powerful solutions out there and not because I work for Microsoft but really because I believe that it's one of the most powerful BI tools in the market. Also Adobe Analytics is something like if you work for a larger organization, and I worked at Adobe so I am biased on that as well but that is definitely also a very nice analytics solution for people to understand how to track funnels and how to understand the impact from one step to the next one. Yeah, but other than that I can't give you that much of an insight to be honest. Okay, awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us today I think that's all the time we have for questions I know a few of you have asked or requested the links that Christian shared so we'll drop those into the Facebook comments here as well and make sure you guys get those. Before we go Christian, would you mind sharing your advice for aspiring product managers out there. Ah, advice. Yeah, so I, I, that is really hard because I didn't know that in the product manager existed when I still lived in Germany, I was always a product manager somehow so I always like thought about like what can I do better what what are like ideas I can work on I started a bunch of like failed companies myself like I always had like ideas when I saw something I wanted to like make it better. When I was like 16 or so my uncle said you like a black hole searcher like try to find problems and optimize them in a sense. What is the good advice I mean, I think I can talk to like what we look for at LinkedIn when or when I personally just talked to two program managers, basically like probably three things that I look for most. One is curiosity. So I really look for people that are curious to solve problems that they see. And in an interview can see this very quickly if someone is like really engaged and like hears and wants to know more and like really like be energetic about it. The second one is if someone is someone inspiring and it's something you probably can almost learn but I get that within like two minutes talking to someone if he has some cool idea if you work at some cool like project in the past and it doesn't need to mean that it must have been like super successful right just by having this drive to like starting like something yourself maybe during university time or afterwards so if someone like inspires me with what he's talking about that that certainly helps. And then the last one is probably just be like super open because it goes back to this earlier question of how important communication is but if you can't like stand up in front of a crowd and I did an all hands in today in our office like I mean they were 80 people or so and if you kind of stand there and you don't know what to say and you can't make like little jokes and so forth. I mean, it is important to be like the funny nice guy also, but you also need to be very like hard and strict and straightforward in other situations but I think it's very important that you are able to just communicate your ideas freely and I don't have an issue in talking in front of other people because it's essentially in the end always what you do right you have to do something to present it you need to like defend it you need to like convince other people to do something and it goes back to this one thing that I said earlier, many times you have the responsibility, but not the authority, and you can only solve that but like being kind of a good personality in a sense and it's hard to learn. And I also don't say that I'm perfect at that. But it's certainly something that I look for an interview processes. That was awesome. Well thank you again so much for your time today is great presentation and great Q&A session so we appreciate you being here. Yeah, thank you so much and good luck everyone and again right if you have any questions feel free to reach out to me. Great awesome and guys as you know you can get more information on us at product school calm if you haven't yet you can still type in book in the comments and get your free copy. And thanks everyone have a nice day. Bye.