 Good afternoon all and welcome to this meeting on the topic of agriculture, north and south in following Brexit. It's a delight to welcome you all. My name is Thio Kallig. I'm chair of the UK group in the Institute, and I want to welcome you here. I'm delighted that we're joined by David Brown, who's the deputy president of the Ulster Farmers Union, and by Tide Buckley, who's the director of policy and chief economist of the Irish Farmers Association. You're both very welcome. I'll ask them both to speak for about 10 minutes, and then I'll be happy to take questions thereafter. I'd like to remind you that this session, both the initial 10 minutes from each of our panelists, and the session which follows are on the record. And please feel free to ask questions, and I put the questions to our speakers as we go along. Let me now formally introduce Mr Brown and Mr Buckley, but David Brown is a deputy president of the Ulster Farmers Union, having been elected in 2018. Within the Ulster Farmers Union, he represents the southwest group on the beef and lamb committee. He's also a committee member of the Fermanagh grassland club and a service chairman. He's originally from Florence Court 20 from Anna, where he owns a cattle and sheep farm. Tide Buckley is the director of policy and chief economist for the Irish Farmers Association, having been appointed in December 2020. He's also a member of the Agricultural Science from UCD, as well as a master's of business administration from the University of Nimrick. Mr Buckley is also a nothing scholar, a member of the Agricultural Science Association, and a qualified financial advisor. He's also actively involved in dairy farm on his home farm in North Cork. Thank you both, and may I invite David Brown to tell us how he sees things for about 10 minutes. The floor is yours David. Thank you very much. I suppose the first thing to say is thank you for the invitation. I understand our chief executive previously presented to this group back, I suppose just in the mouth of Brexit. Obviously this year, and it was returning to the north-south agriculture cooperation that has existed here in both north and south, and no invisible barriers. It was obviously what we were used to. And thankfully, to all intents and purposes, that north-south barrier still is pretty free and open in terms of trade. I suppose first to just quickly acknowledge some of the level of trade. We have somewhere around 2.5 billion litres of milk produced in Northern Ireland. One third of that, which goes south for processing, mainly Lakeland, Glanby, and I'll return to that point relating to the milk later on. Sheep trade, again traditionally up to half a million, 400,000 to 500,000 sheep go for slaughter in the south of Ireland. And I suppose there's an inevitability actually that some of them believe it or not return to the GB marketplace and indeed into mainland Europe. I was on a meeting this morning having some discussion around the significance of the pig trade because while we've all those sheep going south, we also have roughly an equivalent number of pigs which come north. First slaughter, that at the minute, just to make you aware, due to labour shortages is proven to be rather a concern because we just aren't able to get the slaughter capacity due to the lack of labour. So we've accepted, I suppose, what in the past was normal everyday trade, pre-Brexit. Thankfully, as I say, that has to the main with Southern Ireland remained pretty much the case. Of course, naturally we will have variations at times and prices, which will those price differentials will dictate the market and the movement of stock north or south. Brexit, I suppose, on a positive side has allowed us here in the north to design our own bespoke agricultural policy and the agricultural policy outside of the EU has been devolved to the region. So England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are allowed to plan and design their own. The drink sector here in Northern Ireland has an output of over £5 billion sterling with 113,000 jobs. So it's a significant contributor to the Northern Ireland economy, which like the south and agricultural economy with a population of just between 1.8 and 1.9 million in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland feeds 10 million people in the UK. It is a significant contributor to that deficit of the UK, which is only around 60% self sufficient in food production. Currently has launched proposals for a new Northern Ireland food strategy framework, I suppose, specific to us, which helps develop across departmental frameworks. I suppose it allows local procurement in schools, hospitals, prisons, etc allow us to provide safe, healthy, environmentally produced food instead of a policy which in the past maybe was more dictated by the cheap cuts, which were brought from wherever to the service sector as well. I suppose the second part have been outside of Europe and having our own agriculture policy is an attack tag may dwell on this in perhaps later but it's reflected in the fact that we're no longer part of the CAP. So that CAP reform, the Common Agricultural Policy, the Farm to Fork policy which the EU is now pursuing targeting things like 25% organic production, reduction in the use of fertilizers and plant protection products, reduced use of animal health medicines and all of that. And there is a fear naturally there that that will lead to an unprecedented reduction across the whole of the EU and food production and inevitably farmer incomes. And we're outside of that. However, I suppose it's fair to say there are major issues. Those are the things that I suppose we see as as positives. For example, has developed its own environmental management scheme, which is not in its rollout, proving that attractive to farmers on the ground. We are currently working with our own department in terms of developing a future agricultural policy specific to Northern Ireland. But as I say there are issues relating to Brexit and the protocol. So some of those are going to be solved this evening I was just checking earlier with the guys that Maris Sefkiewicz wasn't making a speech before I made this one because some of those things may have moved ahead. But Northern Ireland, I suppose became, well it remained part of the UK customs territory, it also remains in the EU regulatory zone. So therefore, you know a lot of the rules to do with standards which apply in the EU, we are still applied here in Northern Ireland. So mainland GB is now regarded as a third country and it has led to major difficulties I would say in the GB to Northern Ireland trade over 50% of our trade in the opposite direction is with GB. And some commodities for example beef, you know it's over 80% and the talk of unfettered access to our internal marketplace or most important marketplace. Yes, to an extent that that is true. However, there is additional documentation, additional paperwork and checks and so forth and those all add cost. And naturally as we always find in life, those costs get passed back down and inevitably end up with the producer. But UFU, Ultra Farmers Union, represent around 11 and a half thousand farming families. And we did a survey in the past there's roughly 2.6 family members involved, some of those businesses or family memberships actually might have a poultry unit and a dairy unit or you know beef and sheep or whatever as well. So there's quite a number of enterprises across you know some of those farm businesses, but we represent all farms, and we're non political. So we steer clear of the constitutional discussions and debates around the protocol. And yet a couple of weeks ago I was invited to make representations to the finance committee up at Stormont for a submission on the Northern Ireland protocol and we present at that point I suppose those things, which are issues for us. And I'm happy to enter into discussion later on those but I'll just quickly list off maybe some of the things that really in the interest of time I don't want to dwell on in detail but if you wish to come back to them please do but for example. And we knew this from the end of last year that breeding sheep, which were normally bought across mainly in Scotland have been prevented from coming so those sheep actually bought last last autumn, 2020 before Brexit happened on the first to January those farmers anticipated that they could get them across they couldn't be brought across until the first of January because there's scrappy which is a disease of sheep which had to be checked for and in effect they had to be year old so the sheep were bought. They would normally have been grazed on Scottish farms and then brought over after the first to January those sheep, some of them were sent for slaughter others are still in Scotland and had to be resold, because they simply could not be got back into Northern Ireland. And we also had a six month residency period for Northern Ireland and breeders livestock, and that would be brought across maybe to sales or shows those livestock have to, if they go across currently to Northern Ireland would have had to stay for six month period we hope these things are being done and perhaps maybe in time we will get alleviations but you know, 10 months on, we're still in the same place growers and other example unable to get seed potatoes and able to get cereal seeds this autumn because they need certification coming from a third country into effectively your regulatory zone. That has reduced the number of varieties and seeds that they can get and increase the cost. Horticulture plants and it was massive disruption and still is to the SPS checks sanitary and phytosanitary checks that need to take place. And indeed you may have picked up on TV and radio back earlier in the year where this whole debacle existed around plants that had soil on their roots and suppliers just gave up trying to get them to Northern Ireland so we lost, we lost that producer base machinery and agriculture parts again time important they need to be got probably 24 hours delivery and those have been delayed customs checks and checks on and I suppose really fundamentally those things which are forced and foremost in the farmers mines. They sort of trickle down to people who couldn't get particular items that they normally got through Amazon or direct deliveries or whatever. Plant protection products and just quickly give you an example of that back in summertime our vegetable sector had an aphid spray very important spray in order to keep the aphids at bay called Topiki the EU decided that that was no longer allowed to be used. The UK you know still using it or GB sorry still using it but Northern Ireland could no longer use it because we again within that regulatory zone. It might not seem a big issue because initially we thought well surely there are products then in our way that we can use instead. But that turned out not to not be the case because those products need to be licensed by the chemicals regulation division in the UK so in other words we could put it on our carrots or on our potatoes or whatever. Because it was that product or a product was not maybe licensed by CRD and the chemical regulation division in the UK so rather than finding ourselves in the best of both worlds we found ourselves in no man's land veterinary medicines same as human medicines. And I said earlier that I would return to the milk and rules of origin around milk became and still is an issue exciting company and those in the Irish government and no doubt the FA are well enough aware of this. If you've got something to put on a shelf and it is described as mixed origin is not a great label to have attached to it. All be it a lot of those third countries that that was being supplied to by Lakeland for example as a co-op they were sending powders and so on to third countries outside of the EU. In the main those countries have accepted that mixed origin product and continue to take it. But it's still not a solution. So I suppose to sort of quickly summarize all of these are real problems and we have 2800 checks per week done at our ports coming in that didn't previously exist and you're probably perhaps aware that there has been an extension of grace periods. Those are something the UK requested and they have been extended. If those grace periods had not been extended. The number of checks would have risen to somewhere in the region of 15,000 per week, which is 20%. I mean basically we have more checks. I would have had more checks coming into Northern Ireland and they haven't brought her down one of the largest ports in the world and that just is simply unmanageable. So there is as you may well know from the news even today discussions that have been ongoing for some months with the EU about trying to find solutions to that. But if I could leave you with this analogy. You know of why the protocol in Northern Ireland has been perceived to be so difficult. I suppose if you're somebody who enjoys your cup of coffee. Perhaps you were told that sorry from the 1st of January 2022 you can no longer have it. And, you know, there will be no more coffee, you would perhaps feel you'd lost something you might feel that that ruling was unfair or unreasonable. However, on the other hand, if you were told you can still have your coffee and you perhaps might not think that you'd gained anything because that was just normal. And that's the difficulty we have with agriculture industry where, and ultimately, the things which we do still have and I very much recognize and acknowledge them in terms of the trade we continued have with the those are things which were normal. And therefore they're not seen as gains, but those things which we have lost are certainly to the foremost of our farmers minds. So I concluded that and hand back to the chair. Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed David for a very wide ranging few minutes. May I now ask Tyke for his views. Tyke, I'll hand over to you. Thank you very much Chairman. And, and thanks for the opportunity and it's a, I presume when you were organizing this you fully expected to have Lord Frost and Commissioner Sefkiewicz speaking just around the time that you had the event so I'm impressed with your prescience. So I suppose just to say, I think a lot of what I am planning to say here. David has actually covered an awful lot already and you know I chair an awful lot of, of the views that David has outlined in terms of the importance of not so trade first of all so I suppose before in terms of just to recap really in Brexit posed and you know arguably arguably still continues to pose a very substantial threat to Irish agriculture from our perspective. Our exports agricultural exports to the UK represented 34% of all our agricultural exports in 2019 and a 44% of beef so a massive part of it. Huge important for three real reasons first of all, it's a high value market, the second of all similar, similar dietary trends, and third of all it's close proximity. So it's a huge important market to the to to Irish farmers. And then as David has already covered the trade between the south and north of the border it's quite integrated as David has outlined, massive chunk of milk coming south to be processed. 360,000 lambs from the south from the north came south in 2020, you know in 2020 in this year year today, about 60,000 live cattle have gone up to the north, which is up over a quarter on last year, and substantially up in 2019 about 10% of our pigs are go north as well as David has said and, you know, not with standard standing the challenges that are there at the moment from a labor perspective which is, is proving very challenging in terms of starting capacity, but as well as that, you know, in terms of from a disease perspective and all learning approach is vital because I mean disease in terms of animal or other type disease, they would not respect any borders so having an all earned approach and that side is vital as well. And I suppose thankfully the protocol and the trade and cooperation agreement alleviated the worst threats of Brexit from both a tariff perspective and in terms of the north south trade, not withstanding the issues that David has outlined, one of them being very much related to the mix goods mixed origin issue, which David covered in terms of the importance of it from a dairy perspective, and also from in terms of whiskey as well where you know chunk of whiskey is is blended whiskey as well. And that suffers from the same issues that as related to dairy, in terms of it, not being recognized as an eligible good from in terms of gaining access to the, to the EU free free trade agreements and potentially an issue to should intervention be an option for dairy, where those products that are blended origin may not at the moment would not be eligible to go into intervention. So that that is certainly an issue that that that continues to be a very topic and we would certainly be hoping that would be started to find a solution to it. And I suppose it is important to say that from an Irish agriculture perspective. I don't think we've yet been fully. We've been fully exposed to the impacts of Brexit, because there has been a postponement of SPS checks, and the recent uplift in commodity prices, which David again alluded to it. The price changes across the different marketplaces do tend to drive some of the trade flows north south regard to to livestock. And I suppose at the moment we are going through, you know, a positive cycle in terms of commodity prices. And I would be concerned to a certain extent that the industry might be being, you know, have a false sense of security in terms of what we have seen post Brexit because as a lot of the checks have yet to be fully implemented. And until that happens, we won't fully appreciate the impact that has, but it has already had specific impacts, you know, negative impacts for us. When I'm talking about Irish farming, I mean, first of all, we've seen a you know sterling is devalued by 10% over that period farmers are price takers so that is an impact for us. We look at the future UK potential for the UK to do trade deals. We've seen the Australian trade deal already signed where there's potentially going to be 110,000 tons of beef coming in 75,000 tons of lamb, 48,000 tons of cheese, which is obviously a big threat for Irish agriculture, and as well as that, with a potential softening of the of SPS standards in the UK down the road we would be looking to see is, is, is it a potential trade deal with other countries on the, on the horizon in the long term, but also I suppose it's important to say that Ireland lost a very close ally in the EU also in terms of agriculture policy with the departure of the UK from the EU, because we work closely aligned in terms of policy and inference, I'm not that long in the IFA but I do know that the IFA has worked very closely with David and his colleagues in the EU a few over years and have a very good working partnership, but in terms of our own bilaterals and also at EU level with their involvement in the COPPA family or umbrella family of army organizations as well so that was a real loss for for Irish agriculture as well. And especially when we face into the challenges that we, we have with farm to fork, which is going to prove to be very very challenging for Irish and European agriculture in terms of trying to achieve those objectives. And the likely impact is going to have on production, food security and farm incomes. I suppose, even despite Brexit UK consumers contingency Irish food in a very positive light which is, which is important. So I suppose in red tractor research of UK consumers identified that Ireland was the most trusted country among UK consumers for beef chicken dairy and pork product which is very, I suppose important for us that we retain that that that that that Ireland can be viewed in that fashion from a agricultural exports point of view. And I suppose I just to conclude chairman in agriculture faces massive challenges, you know, particularly on the climate side of it, which we are, we are really grappling with in the south at the moment I know in Northern Ireland David is facing very similar challenges with his organization too. So we cannot afford to have a trade dispute taking place in the midst of all this. And I think, you know, it's because of that, that we need to make sure that we can that issues that are there at the moment are resolved in a in a, you know, in a fashion that addresses the issues that are there for for all stakeholders and allows us to move forward. I mean we've endured five years of uncertainty, since Brexit was first the referendum took place. And for all concerned, I think we need clarity, certainty and stability going forward for the good of all involved in agriculture, both north and south of the water. Thank you chairman.