 You ask, we answer. Welcome to Can This Marriage Be Saved where we go up against common relationship problems and help you determine if this relationship should stay or go. Tonight you're here with Rivka and Shlomo Slacken and we're talking about the topic of what if your spouse does not want to work on your marriage and what can you do about it? Shlomo, I'd love for you to speak in by talking with us about what people can do if their spouse really doesn't want to go to counseling or doesn't want to work on their marriage doesn't want doesn't want to read about it really just kind of refuses everything You're asking them to do to improve your relationship Well, there's plenty that you can do There's usually a dragger in a drag and a drag E meaning one person who is Gung-ho about getting help and one person who would rather not so that's normal Even if they're not going to come into the counseling Office and work on the relationship. There are things that you can do At home to be able to work on it together or even work out on it yourself Which will have a ripple effect on your relationship great Well, I'd love to know what those are but before we go into those I want to know more like should I know a lot of people wonder should they get maybe a third party involved to kind of Pressure their spouse to you know to go with them to work on their marriage Let's say counseling or something like that You know, I would say half the calls I get it from people who won't help but don't have a willing spouse So there's always a question of you know, they always ask me. So how do you know, how do we get them in to the room? So a few of the things I generally say is pressure is usually not a good idea Because the more pressure the more they're going to resist So you want to make it safe a lot of people have an image of counseling as being something That's very negative. They're concerned that the counselor is going to take sides and That of course if you're the one who's being forced to counseling that you may be concerned that you're going to be the one Who's going to be blamed so obviously that none of that should be happening in in therapy in good therapy But there's still that fear because there's there's plenty of that going on unfortunately So one of the things you want to do is make it safe for them So if you do want to broach the topic instead of implying that they're doing something wrong and making them feel unsafe And like it's their fault Take responsibility You can tell them, you know, I know I'm not easy to live with. I don't think anyone's really easy to live with So it's not this is not false I know I'm not easy to live with and I really like to be a better spouse to you And I really could use your help to work together and to be able to do that And that's one way that you can approach your spouse and try to get them in the room To come to counseling because you're not putting pressure on them. You're taking responsibility You could even say some of the issues that you have To your spouse and say, you know, these are some of the things I want to work on But I really need your help to work on them with me. Now sometimes that does work But many times it doesn't so the question is should you bring somebody else in the in the picture and you know in In general, it's usually not the best idea because you don't want to feel your spouse to feel pressure They usually backfires usually don't wind up going anyway You know unless there's somebody that really has a strong influence on them that would help them go But they ultimately they want you would want them to go willingly because if they go forced They're going to resent it and they're not going to be present and and really doing the work that needs to be done in therapy I guess these techniques would apply to even like If you wanted your spouse to maybe read a book Do you think these same type of things would apply not only asking them to go to counseling with you But really just kind of like doing anything even, you know sitting down with you and having a conversation I know a lot of women just kind of want to sit down with their spouse and kind of have Have a conversation about how their marriage and the direction it's going in. What do you think about that? Well, it should always ask if it's a good time and and not make sure make sure you get your spouse at a good time when they're available and And not to pressure them about it because they may feel nagged and they may feel pressure They may feel that you're going to criticize them and pick on them and then make it defensive So you have to exercise caution when you try to approach the topic Also, I know a lot of people don't want to talk, right? I mean, there's a whole book that I know you recommend to people called How to improve your marriage without talking about it I can just see like, you know, the wife kind of saying to her husband We need to talk and him just completely shutting down Right. So a lot of men first of all a lot of men don't like to talk They don't like to talk about issues or talk about anything. So trying to get them into therapy is kind of a You know a lose-lose situation Not all the time, but some of the time And also men don't usually like therapy men Don't like to talk about their feelings. It's hard for them for most men and they You know, it's not something that they feel good at or successful at and they really don't want to be put in a situation Where they're gonna feel worse about themselves. They probably already feel bad about themselves that they're not making you happy so then to go into therapy and to You know, you're gonna the the wife is often the one who's you know, better expressing herself and better Sharing her feelings and there's another way for the man to feel bad about himself I Will say that I've seen plenty of men who've been very successful in couples work together and have done a great job Learning how to open up and there are men that are that are that do open up and express their feelings But in the cases where where they don't and where there might be not interested in working on a relationship It's something to bear in mind and think about I've had I had a couple I had a wife call me once It's funny. Her husband was actually You know, he's a clergyman and he actually Helps other couples which is about he himself would refuse to get help on their relationship So I talked to them about different things I talked to her about things that she could do How she could be encouraged him to come and she said there's no way he's going to come You know, it's a he's ashamed it would be a shame to come to think there's something wrong with him and his in the relationship So I recommend them reading in this book called how to improve your marriage without talking about it by Pat Love and Steve Stosny and She called me back and said, you know, our marriage did a 180 without him doing anything He saw the book lying around but she read the book She took to heart what was written in there and did what she could from the woman's perspective And it made a huge difference in the relationship So, you know, if you find yourself in that in that situation, that's definitely a valuable resource and We've also seen people have been very successful even using using our marriage mastery program working on the relationship by themselves and by working on themselves making a difference because Well, the best way to work on a relationship is together When you're kind of wait when you're not able to work on it together if one person can change it does have a ripple effect But I guess that leads me to my next question Which is if your spouse refuses to get help should you go and get help for yourself separately on your own? Right. So in terms of individual therapy, so some people ask me they want me to actually work with them and I won't do that because I only work with a couple and One of the reasons is that if I'm working with one part of the couple and then Their spouse does want to come in eventually. It's already a you know, the playing field is not level It already looks like I'm aligned with the spouse that I met with so I don't do that But in terms of encouraging people to go to individual therapy So it really depends if you can find an individual therapist who can help you work on your own issues Then that's great if you find an individual therapist who kind of eggs you along and kind of I mean Obviously you want someone who can validate your feelings and your pain But you also want someone who can help you take responsibility and not blame your spouse if individual therapy is just an opportunity to preach the choir and have someone kind of Validate how bad your spouse is then it is not helpful. It is actually harmful a lot of a lot of couples are in situations where the one spouse goes to an individual therapist and Because the spouse doesn't want to come in for a couple's counseling and then the individual therapist Can kind of egg egg the person the spouse on and encourage them to to even leave their relationship because you know Your husband or your wife isn't willing to come to therapy and they're hearing all these horrible stories about their relationship So they can sometimes you know irresponsibly Direct you in in the wrong direction So you want to make sure that you find you know research and make sure that individual therapist is someone that's really going to Be there to help you understand yourself better and what's bothering you about this and take ownership for your feelings as opposed to Encouraging you to blame your spouse for your problems And I guess for those of you that are currently seeing an individual therapist These are some good, you know warning signs like if you do find yourself coming home and kind of second-guessing your spouse Maybe getting more angry at your spouse That's a sign that that individual therapist is is really creating doubt Which is probably the worst thing for your marriage, right? What do you say? Yeah, like if yeah, it's it's definitely Because you're trying you know here you are you you hope you at least your intention is to keep the relationship together And to work on the marriage so even if you don't have a willing spouse so having someone Give you ideas to make you you know Doubt your spouse is Definitely not going to be helpful for healing the relationship And I guess the answer to my next question would be probably not but I know some people think about this they think You know should they separate and kind of work on themselves separately is it I guess this piggyback's on the previous question Do you see any benefit to doing that? Well, the best again the best thing is to work together I can't tell you how many times I hear even Couples will call me beforehand and I speaking to them and I hear their stories and Sometimes I just you know, I want to hear one side of the story I you know, I can't believe what what it's going to look like when I see them together And I'll tell you every single time when I see them together. It's much I would say it's much easier and simpler than than I would have thought if I just bought into the individual story that they told me so Working on it together. It's just you can't compare it to working on it by yourself Or so if you could work on it together, that's much better if you don't want to work on together in terms of separating You know sometimes people need space you have to figure out your situation if you have children just separating is not necessarily going to be The best thing to do it's would be very difficult for them and confusing for them So that that is something to bear in mind and sometimes Once you separate then it just makes it much easier to Permanently sabotage and get divorced So separation is is not always the best way to deal in with things. It sounds like it's kind of a slippery slope It's it potentially can be it doesn't always have to be but it potentially can be and Okay, so again very similar question but if you feel like your spouse is holding you back like you're really interested in kind of personal growth and self-help and Maybe you feel like your spouse isn't so maybe you're starting to think like oh, he's holding me back or she's holding me back from my Dreams, what are those feelings about what's really going on underneath the surface? Well, I think this is quite common. We wrote an article about it once About how self-enlightenment can destroy your relationship Ultimately the most self-enlightened and self-growth person is someone who can have compassion for another As long as someone's not you're not being really, you know, hurt by the person or obviously you're probably being hurt emotionally or your relationship hurts but If you're not in physical danger and this person and you just have a lousy relationship and You're the one who wants to work on yourself If you really worked on yourself You have been able to develop compassion for your spouse. I find a lot of people who do self-growth work They get so wrapped up in their self-growth work that they They started judging their spouse they're not able to have that compassion. They think their spouse should be like them this is a lot of Although the growth work is great if it's going to take you away from your relationship and give you a almost like a holier than thou you know sanctimonious attitude then You know, it's definitely not it's not a good thing. So you want to start examining, you know What is this work doing? Is this making me becoming a more compassionate and understanding person? Or is it just making me kind of wrapped up in myself if you're wrapped up in yourself then it's not really healthy growth That's a very interesting idea and I'd love to maybe Go back to that article and share it with our listeners for those of you that are interested If you'd like to, you know, have it Sent to you. We'd love to send it to you You can email us at info at the marriage restoration Project calm. I think that's a very important article. Don't you think so? Yeah, I mean when I remember when we wrote it, it was just There's something we felt very strongly about because I saw a lot of people who They're coming from maybe it's a 12, you know, it's a 12 step group or Or a personal growth weekend and they're all excited to share the growth and they start feeling like they're, you know Better than their spouse and here I'm enlightened person and and you're not and you know, if you're enlightened then That enlightened people if truly enlightened people Have love for everyone and have compassion for everyone. They don't think they don't look down on people So if you're coming from a place of judgment, then you're you know, it's more from a place of self-absorption than actually Enlighten true enlightenment. I think that's the beauty of what you do with a moggo therapy, which is See, I guess how would you explain it? It's really like This whole theme is you know working on yourself separately or together You really only work with people together because you really see that the ultimate way to heal is to be in Relationship so separating to work on yourself separately would be completely counterproductive, right? if there's no other option, yeah, and And also it allows you to have compassion for the other person Which is the ultimate in self-growth to really be able to Hear your spouse to realize that your spouse is and other your spouse is different than you and that you can appreciate their differences They don't have to be like you you can have compassion for them and you can compassion for their faults Instead of judging them and feeling threatened. I Remember when we first went to an a moggo therapist I remember how hard it was for me to sit there and to listen to what you had to say and to mirror it back without Interjecting my own story like really calming myself long enough to sit there and kind of like Accept you and listen to you was probably like one of the hardest things I've ever done I thought I was completely like unable to listen. I couldn't believe it You did a great job I'm still here today But that's where the transformation that's where the transformation happens and that's why I love doing what I do because I Really can see that couples transform It's not just they're learning and technique and how to communicate better, but it really transforms the relationship It transforms the way that we look at each other. You know, I never I don't feel like I fully understood what it was like It meant to listen even though you always said I was a good listener I definitely didn't think I was knew what it was like to listen so I did this process and Just to be able to put my defenses aside and really, you know Cross that bridge and even though it was scary in the beginning That to really just be there in your world and when I was able to do that I think it's completely transformed how we related to each other in our relationship. I think so too It was definitely very healing for me So I do want to address a few other things so you were mentioning before about you know What else can you do on your own and how can working on yourself? Make a difference in your relationship and we talk a lot about this on the marriage mastery program We talk about know what you can do on your own how you can be emotionally mature How you can take ownership for your feelings There's so many things that we do that are counterproductive to the relationship criticizing our spouse Negativity if we can work on it from our end then we create safety. This is something we talk about time and time again, but When there's safety in a relationship, both people can show up when the relationship is not safe Then we spend our energy protecting ourselves putting up our defenses. So if one of us Stops what we're doing that's creating the lack of safety in the relationship then that can draw our partner back in So if you alone can work on making the relationship more safe by removing the verbal venom by stop criticizing by stop blaming and shaming By noticing what you might do to trigger your spouse by having more compassion for your spouse by asking what you need instead of criticizing by taking ownership for your feelings What using I statements and we talk a lot about this in the step three? Detox your marriage the more that you can do that You will see a change. You'll see your spouse starts a you know loosen up and You know even in relationships where we talk about this actually in the beginning of the book in it and the introduction about How it's possible that we had the example of the one spouse was more rigid and the others and The more that the rigid spouse kind of let go of their of their fear They were able to allow the other spouse to step in and fulfill Their role and really take ownership in their relationship. So you can bring each other back in if you're not acting in a in a reactive way and if fear fear-based way if you really can be more intentional and be more conscious and Create more safety in their relationship You will start seeing that your spouse is going to see a new person Even if you think they're the one to blame There's never one person to blame in a relationship. It takes two to tango both of you contribute to the relationship mess but there's a dynamic there and Even though the best way and the quickest ways for both of you to work on it together Even if one of you can take ownership for your side in your role that you play you will see a chain of reaction And are you basically saying if you change the way you talk? Then your marriage is going to change kind of on its own even with your spouse being aware that Your improve that they're improving the marriage with you. Sure. So let's say for example you if you constantly Criticize your spouse and you nag your spouse and do this and this and I don't like when you do this and complaining all the time So it could be that your spouse just checked out. They don't want to hear anymore. It's enough. It's annoying so once you stop doing that then You know, they don't want to be in relationship once you stop doing that then you make it safe for them to come back in you're not pushing them away and I'm not saying they're not doing things that are that are bothering you or that you know you deserve that You deserve that they should make certain changes For the relationship their needs that you have that aren't being met. That's definitely fine But you know, how are you getting that message across if you're pushing them away? If you're nagging them if you're criticizing them, then they could shut down and just check out So, you know, that's a perfect example of how just changing that and say, oh, well like you're not bothering me anymore Like you're not criticizing me You're really asking me for what you need, of course I'll be willing to give to you, but we just put up a wall to protect ourselves because we just don't want to hear it I'm thinking that it also applies to parenting You know, if you keep nagging your kids, they kind of just like don't even listen to you anymore Exactly, but if you come from a place of wanting to connect with them and asking for what you need You know, I really need you to clean your room because it really Upsets me to live in a messy house Is so much better than you never clean your room and then you sound like a raving lunatic Right, and it's just like the same old story over and over again And then we just at some point we just shut it off. We can you know, the words just kind of go through We don't even want to hear them So they have no impact and then you know the relationship just You're left upset because you're not getting what you need and your spouse is unhappy and just you know Not interested your child I think this is an important topic of what to do if your spouse doesn't want to work on your marriage with you because I think You basically made it simpler than it Then it sounds like I think what you talked about today Shalamo is that it's much easier than You might think to work on your marriage alone and to see significant improvements. Is that correct? Exactly I think it sounds overwhelming and scary if your partner doesn't want to work on it with you And it might seem like all is lost but tonight. I think what we've realized is it's really actually pretty simple Yeah, I mean it takes it takes effort. It's it takes effort changing yourself. It's no one says it's easy to change To change your patterns and to really be introspective and to be honest with yourself But if you do that and you want the relationship to succeed if you do that then you can bring your spouse in and you can Get them on board and you'll see changes and you'll see happy relationship. We've seen that time and time again That's great news. Thank you very much For more information about marriage mastery and how it can help you visit the marriage restoration project.com forward slash marriage dash mastery dash presentation and we look forward to Giving you another great episode here at you ask We answer can this marriage be saved? Have a great night. Good night We hope you've enjoyed listening to today's topic We'll be back again to focus on another topic that is sure to help you with your marriage for any questions or concerns Please email us at info at the marriage restoration project com with best wishes for your relationship success