 Welcome to the Amherst Historical Commission public meeting on Monday, October 19th, 2020, based on Governor Baker's executive order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law signed Thursday, March 12th, 2020. This meeting is being held virtually using the Zoom platform. My name is Jane Wald and as Chair of the Amherst Historical Commission I'm calling this meeting to order at 6.31 p.m. This meeting is being recorded and minutes are being taken as normal. First we'll take a roll call of commissioners in attendance. As you hear your name called, please unmute yourself, answer affirmatively, and then please place yourself back on mute. Patricia Off. Present. Robin Fordham. Present. Jan Marquardt. Present. Jane Scheffler. Is not present. Eddie Startup. Present. And Jane Wald. I'm present. Please use the raise hand function to ask a question or make a comment. I will see your raised hand and call upon you to speak. After speaking, please remember to re-mute yourself. Opportunity for public comment will be provided during the general public comment period will be end of the meeting. Please be aware commissioners need not respond to comments during the general public comment period. If guests wish to make a comment during that time when called on, please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes and at the discretion of the commission chair. So welcome all. And it looks like Jane Scheffler is here. I just found her in the attendees, promoted to panelist. You're on mute. Howdy. Hey, Jane. Nice to meet you. Why can't I tell you guys I'm there? How are the babies, Jane? They're good, they're still in the hospital but they're doing well. We've got our, so we've got Ulysses is now over six pounds. He's like six pounds and two ounces. And Linus, who was two pounds, two ounces when he was born is now up to three pounds. So, still very small. But they're growing and they're well. Exactly, yes. Terrific. I think I was only three or four pounds when I was born. Okay, that makes me feel good. Yeah, I was a triplet. You're a triplet? Yeah. How can you feel good knowing it was Nate? There were three of them. Right. That's impressive, Nate. Were you the biggest or the smallest? I was fraternal and I was the biggest. So I think I was, maybe I was like four, 10 or four, I don't know, none of us were over five pounds. I might have been a little over four but my brothers were like three, 10, three, 11. Your parents are... We were three weeks early and my mom likes to say we could fit in the palm of her hand. Oh, that's nice. One of my uncles was a 14 pound baby. Whoa. That's on the other end of the spectrum. Totally off topic, but one of our town's electrical inspector, she's not, but she's actually really petite but she was like an 11 pound baby. She, I guess she was really tall and big but she's not at all a taller big person. I'm like, wow, 11 pounds. That's amazing. Well, I guess we're trying to keep us on topic, huh? Yes, it was subtle. I enjoy the conversation, but... So Jane, yeah, so Jane, yeah, I mean, you know, three, four pounds, that's a good size. There. That's just embarrassed because he wasn't anything special when he was born. I think my mom would beg to differ, but... First on the agenda. Are there any announcements that anyone has to make? Ben or... Not that, nothing that's not already included in the agenda here, so. All right, because we have members of the public present who may have interest in demolition applications and CPA proposals. I'm going to move the vote on the DRB and CPA representatives to follow the action on CPA proposals. So let's begin with demolition applications and these are, this is not a public hearing, so this is a preliminary disposition. Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, I think Tom Hartman was planning to present on 37 Bay Road and he's not here yet. I don't think. What? I'm looking in the attendees. And I don't believe anyone's from 405 Market Hill Roads coming. So it might make sense to do the CPA proposals first. Let's go ahead with the 405 Market Hill Road. Okay, yeah, that sounds good. So I need to find that here. So here's their application. It was received early last week and it's for the demolition of a kennel, an old building that was previously used as a kennel for boarding dogs. The data construction was approximately 1960 and it's in poor condition. Can everyone see this? Okay, in terms of the resolution and the size of the... Yep. Okay. Yep. So yeah, in terms of images, I also made a few maps, but I think the application does a good job too. Here's the aerial view of the structure. Is it that entire structure that the entire U-shape? Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is from the road, Market Hill Road, from the back, seemingly. Can't see much there, I guess the fence as well. Can I just ask, did we not, is this not the same kennel that a couple of years ago we approved demolition for? Yeah. Okay, I believe so, yeah. Oh, interesting, I was not aware of that. So maybe that permit expired or something, so they're coming back. Nate, are you aware of the history of that? Not that you mentioned it sounds familiar, but what we've been implementing, Rob Moore, the building commissioner, is that if someone applies for a demolition permit and doesn't act on it, then it expires within six months. And they can always ask to extend it, but he's treating it like a building permit which expires every six months. So you can, once it's open or once it started, owner could keep it open for a while, but obviously they never followed up with. Yeah, no, it's been a long time and so it should come back. I just wondered if it was the same one because it looks so familiar. So here it is, location-wise, then here, same thing. Here's, oops, I had taken some pictures from the road. And I think there's a house that was maybe a veterinary office to the south of it, and that is excluded from this. Yeah, I mean, part of the reason there's a new application is maybe I think this parcel was newly subdivided and it's a new owner, possibly. But yeah, there's some agricultural, agriculture here. And I'm not sure if it's next to a vet or not, but there is like this, other structures around. The fact I know most about this is that my dogs and cats have stayed there. But it hasn't been an operation as it can for quite some time. Well, maybe we should ask them. They have more sentimental connection than we do. Jane, that puts you in the George Washington Sleptier category. What? The George Washington Sleptier category. Oh, Sleptier. They see only when it was claimed to a history with it. I mean, there are some famous American architects who designed dog kennels like Frank Lloyd Wright, but I don't think that's relevant in this situation. But I've driven Market Hill Road fairly recently and I actually remember looking at this building and wondering what it was. So all is revealed. Ben, could you go down a couple of photographs to the red siding? Is that siding on one of the... That's a fence. So up a couple. Sorry, yep, okay. Yes. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the fence. But back about two, we can see some red siding on a building. One more. That's just the building, yeah. Brown. Okay. Are there... Would any member of the commission like to suggest a reason to proceed to a public hearing? Or if not, shall we move in another direction? Seems to me if this is already once approved for demolition and it's years later that moving in another direction might make sense rather than the hearing. Mm-hmm. I remember being pretty thorough. I remember us going through like the year, the condition, all the pros and cons and having a pretty serious vote, don't you, Jane? I mean it was... Yeah, and so I would tend to figure that we have done our due diligence and I still think that probably it's okay if it comes down. I don't see any strong reason for keeping it. Robin, Jane, do you have anything to... That you want to observe about this? I concur with the prevailing thoughts. Well then, for the motion? Forerowness, yeah, maybe. Okay, I move that we approve the demolition application for... Oh, it's not 405 anymore, what is it? It is 405, it went from 336 to 405. Okay, for 405, Mark and Hill Road, the Kennel Building only without requiring a public hearing. Thank you. Second. Thank you, Robin, that's a lovely motion. Well, is there any further discussion? Hearing none, all in favor of this motion? Let me see if I... Did you roll a call? I think we'll have to do a roll call, yeah. Patricia, all? In favor. Let's see, Robin Fordham. Yeah. Dan Marklart. Hi. Jane Scheffler. Hi. Ready to start up? Hi. Jane Wald, aye. Tell me I haven't missed anyone. Okay, great. That's unanimous. Who's Jane's spelling on my name? Oops. Oops, Ben, you did that. I know, I was oozing because I minimized the PDF. Oh, I thought you changed my name spelling. I don't think so. Nobody did, it wasn't me. Maybe it was Zoom. Oh my goodness, they're getting really powerful. Ben, can you tell if Tom Hartman is here? Oh, he is, yep. Perfect. Then let's go to the Sheds at 37 Bay Road, and I didn't find an attachment for that, but perhaps Tom will walk us through. Yeah. Hey, Tom, are you there? I am, how you doing? Great, doing well. Thanks for joining us. My pleasure. So I just wanted to get this up on my screen, just to orient everyone. So 37 Bay Road is kind of that first parcel after the double roundabout on Bay Road. The structures are tucked back from the road, and this is a single family home back here, and the structures in question, whoops, are... Don't look like that. Don't look like that. Yeah, no, the Sheds. Hold on a switch. Oh, there's a couple of photos. They were the attached photos. Yeah, I think. Yeah. So, let me, why don't I have... But they really are just like storage Sheds or wood Sheds. They're not... I can't tell them if you want to... I'm not sure if they have your bill, but they're over 50, but they're not much over 50. It's hard to tell based on aerial photographs for the sites pretty wooded, but... I didn't actually take a site visit today, and they're small and they're open, and they're not in very good shape, but they don't seem to complement or be part of the architecture of the original building. They just seem like something constructed. One held wood and the other looked like it was just stuff. Why did this even come to us? Well, the way the bylaw is written, it's just the way it is. Tom, is there anything you would like to tell us about the... No, essentially, the project is to move the offices of the Kestrel Trust into this house. So it triggered a whole permitting review process, including site plan review with the planning board, the demolition delay for the sheds, and building permit for change of use. So this was one of the processes we needed to go through. Just out of curiosity, is the house structure, is that an old structure? Yeah, it was built in 1950s, so it's over 50 years old, and it was the Epstein's. They designed it and lived there their whole lives until they made an arrangement for Kestrel Trust to buy the property. And then there was a conservation easement with the town for the pond, and this is the plan. Okay. Does anyone have questions for Tom Hartman? Is this the one where at the driveway, at the end of the driveway, there's the wooden contraption that holds a trash or something right out of the road? I always go, it's closer to the rotary jam. Probably now when the trees lose their leaves, if you look southeast from the rotary, you might be able to have a little peek into the property, but it's really, you know. This is the first drive after you go through the rotary. Where the trash bins are is the second drive. Yeah, yeah. I never even noticed this one. Yeah. Yeah, that's obvious when you turn out. Well, I would just say it's a very exciting thing that the Kestrel Trust has found this opportunity, and I love what the Kestrel Trust does for our communities, and I'm in favor of the removal of the sheds. I agree. Okay, so, Heddy, I'm gonna take that as a motion. Go ahead, Jen. Second. Jane, sorry. There was a somewhere. So, all in favor, I'm sorry, roll call. Pat, all? Yes, in favor. Robin Fordham? In favor. Dan Marquardt? Hi. Jane Scheffer? In favor. Heddy, start up. In favor. And Jane Wall? In favor. So, in favor of permitting demolition. All right, thank you. Yeah, thanks, Tom, for joining us. Yeah. Have a great evening. Bye, Tom. Bye-bye. That was an easy one. Okay. Okay, so moving on to CPA proposals. We have representatives from the Mill River, from the district one neighborhood association and from Goodwin Church. Do we? Yep. And then a Jeremiah Laplant is here as well from the town for two of our building applications. Okay. And so, yeah, all invite. Yeah, why don't we take the individual applications first for Mill River and Goodwin Church, and then we'll look at the town projects. Okay. That sounds good. So I'll invite the Mill River application to speak now. So Meg Gage is here from the Mill River from the district one neighborhood association. Promote. Meg to the panelists. Before Meg starts that, I just want to say to the commission, there might be some new members. You know, typically the historical commission. Here's and reviews the CPA proposals for historic preservation. And then writes a memo to the CPA committee with its recommendations or its thoughts and comments and also provides Robin, who's our CPA committee rep, you know, information to speak to these projects when the CPA committee reviews them. So, you know, we may not get to all the projects tonight. We may hear them all. If not, we'll have another meeting where we can cover them all. I think there's six or seven historic preservation projects proposed this year. So there's quite a few. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. So. Meg, the members of the historical commission. Receive. The application for it. The Mill River project prior to this meeting. So I wonder if you would. Just. This is an opportunity for you to supplement the application or say anything you'd like to about. All about it. Great. Thank you, Jane. And, uh, Meg, Meg, sorry to interrupt. I'm just wondering if there's anyone else from your team. I think it's on as well. I was just going to say that. Yep. You see her. Yep. Yay. Hi, Janet. Am I audible? Yep. Janet's muted. Okay, but I'm not visible, but that's okay. Yep. I'm audible, but not visible. Is that right? Correct. Okay. We're very delighted to have this opportunity to talk with you. The historical commission. The district one neighborhood association has been in operation for a long time. It's been in operation for a long time. And we're going to talk about that very briefly described them. You'll see how this proposal fits. First is a conduit of information for people living in district one to know about the issues and developments that affect district one. Residents and as well as townwide issues of importance. Our second purpose is to advocate for specific changes related to public safety and well-being neighborhood integrity. And then we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about the north Amherst that we lobbied for. And got. We're getting a sidewalk on East pleasant street. The North Amherst library is about to get a, an additional with the, this will be a library actually with a restroom. And we're, we maintain the gardens at the ends of summer street and. The median in the middle of North Amherst. And we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about how we work to build community in district one, which is what this history trail is all about. We on the steering committee of the district one neighborhood association of donor. Have lived in North Amherst a total of 127 years. The five of us. And we've. Walked to these trails many, many times and been aware of this. And so, I think that's a great, great, a great, a great big, a great big, a great big advantage of Steve Poffers offered to take me on a tour 10 or 15 years ago. To share what he knows what he knew. So the people are, we're losing people who know this history and the documents. bring back to life, so to speak, these locations along the Mill River, several dozen of them, apparently, but many of them are gotten. There's no remnants at all, but there are many that have remnants, but to bring them back to life, working with UMass archaeologists and Eric Johnson, who's a community archaeologist from UMass, who's actually worked on the Emily Dickinson Homestead Project is very interested in working with us and hopefully engaging high school students as well. I guess I'd rather answer questions and repeat what's in the proposal, but I can't tell you how enthusiastic we are about it and how much we think it will add to North Amherst to balance some of the commercial development, which is probably good. We also want to balance the new and the forward-looking with some awareness of the rich and feisty history that is very much part of North Amherst. Maybe I'll see if people have questions. Also, I sent then some pictures that I was not skillful enough to put on the proposal, but I'm hoping I tried so many different formats. So this one is a levee. Okay, shall I describe each one? This one is a levee that's very near the park and it directed water, it raised the water level on the left side and shot it into a canal that went up, what is now the north side of the Mill River Recreation Park and then across what's now the driveway into the mill store, which then it ran the mill by dropping down into the river. Want to show the next one? It's really good to see this one. It's way down the little rocks along the river. I'm using my cursor, but you can't see my cursor, right? No, I can try to cursor over. This took some bushwhacking on our part to get down and get these pictures, but you could easily make a little trail off of the main trail to get to this one. Next one. This is a piling that was some along the river. Next, this is a really fabulous cellar hole along the river. These tiny little mills, they made pencils and it was tiny, tiny before electricity. Each one has a story of some family and there's another something. They all have a story of a family that used their entrepreneurial intelligence to put together some little projects. They're people we want to learn about who they were and what their families were, where they lived, and so on. So I don't know if you want to go, but there's maybe one more. I think that's it, actually. Okay, so tell me if you have questions. Well, I don't have a question. Let me ask Janet Keller. Do you want to add anything? No, I accept that I'm really thrilled about this, and particularly with the thought of involving both students and professionals, logical professionals from the university and then high school students in this project. I think it will add a dimension that people are not aware of in our end of time. I find that a lot of people don't know about North Amherst and all the rich history that it has. So I'm very excited about it. Thank you. Thank you. I just have one question. The project title is Creating an Interpretive Historic Trail on the Mill River, and I understand in your photos how to clarify the nature of what can be seen there, but how once it's, you know, you've created the interpretations, how is that going to be disseminated? How are people going to know? Right, so thanks to, I wish I had my, if I were, so I don't know how, if you've gone recently to art museums, they don't, you don't always have to get the headphones anymore. You use your little, your cell phone and a QR code that you scan the pick of thing and you will hear the voice of a high school student telling the story of that site. But we'll also have plaques out, like you often see at an archaeological dig where they'll have a little, a little plaque that says here's where the school was or the pub was, but we'll have that. But we're also planning to have tapes of hopefully high school students telling these stories based on the research that they've done about who these people were. So anyone with a cell phone will be able to get, to have access to the information. And with those QR things, you can have sublinks to go to other links and to other links to dig deeper into the history with references and so on. Does that answer your question? Yes, it does. Thank you. I love the, one of the things we're most excited about is getting these high school kids taping their own voices telling the stories of the research they did. We're hoping that we might be able to arrange for them to get credit. One of the things that's cool about Amherst High School is you can get, I graduated from Amherst High School with nine college credits back in the 60s. So we're hoping to work something out where that we might have a field school with high school students and undergraduates from UMass where the UMass, the high school students get credit. Because it's serious, you know, academic work they'd be doing. But this is getting a little bit beyond what we've actually, we can't, we still have to, this is the vision. Yeah. Janet, anything, yeah. Any other questions? I noticed Robin had her hand raised. Hi there. Can I go ahead? Yeah, I just, I wanted to ask three different questions. I'm just going to put the questions out there and then see if they can get answered in order. So am I correct? And I get the sense that this is a planning grant. This is for the planning, but not the implementation of the walk. The next question I had was sort of toward Jane, I'm curious how this kind of funding would fit on the CPA grid for historic preservation. What it would fall under, because I know that's something that's come up in CPA before. And then also curious how you came by the estimates for, particularly for the project planner, but the other estimates for the budget. So the first question is yes, it is a planning grant because we think there's a lot of thinking that needs to go into this to make sure it works and, you know, communicating with the various players. And the project planner, so that's the answer to the first question, it's a planning grant. In a project like this, this is multi-year project, you can't really do without a good plan. The second question you asked, I think is not for us to answer. Is that correct? It's more, Jane, is that? I think the second question is more to see how it fits into the Community Preservation Act grid of allowable projects. Correct. Yeah, and there is some, I would say that, and I don't know, I'm sorry, I'll speak for myself and other commissioners can say what their thoughts are about this. But my sense is that the historical commission has a broader definition of preservation or rehabilitation or, I would say, yeah, creation, I'm sorry, preservation, rehabilitation or restoration than the Community Preservation Act Committee does. So we would make recommendations about a project to the Community Preservation Act Committee, and they would be the final determiners of a project. Can I share my screen quickly? Yeah. I have the Department of Revenue, the allowable chart, if people can see that. Sorry, Jane, interrupt. So, yeah, I mean, Rob, I think this is interesting. It's clearly not acquisition. So here's historic resources here. They say building structure, vessel, real property, document, or artifact listed on the State Register of Historic Places, or is it turned by the local commission to be significant to the history, archaeology, architecture, culture of the city or town? So usually that would mean that the commission would need to find that it meets that definition of historic. And then I agree with Jane that there's some interpretation of what's preservation and then what's rehabilitation and restoration. And so I think it's always going to be you know, some interpretation there. So I think the commission thinks it's preservation, you know, is aiding in the protection of property by, you know, it depends on how strictly people interpret or think what that means. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I mean, so far it looks like, well, first of all, I don't quite understand where planning grants go under. And at our last round of the CPA, I think there was guidance from the DOR that suggested that they should be part of CPA administrative expenses and not under historic preservation. But I have to look that up again. But it's the thrust of the proposal seems more educational to me than preservation. And that's what I'm just trying to anticipate issues that might come up at the CPA in terms of reading the proposal and saying, well, where is the preservation aspect of it? So if you were preserving part of the landscape, that would be more straightforward. But since it's a planning grant, I'm just not sure how it's going to fit there. Yeah, I think that's probably a line of questioning the committee will ask. So part of what's being preserved is the records and the knowledge and the of the history. Anyway, I'm wondering if if planning to preserve these things are not, they're of great importance. And so and they have complex histories. And I'm wondering what your sense is, I would argue that doing this spade work, if you will, is critical to the preservation and perhaps ultimately restoration. Is that something that you've worked with before? Would you care to comment on that? I can make one comment about it from my knowledge of the last, say, 15 years of the Community Preservation Act, how it's been administered and amassed. And quite some time ago, a kind of documentation projects or study projects or planning projects were allowed for CPA funding. But I think that as the composition of the committee changes, some of the interpretation of what is allowable within the grid that the Department of Revenue sets out, that the interpretation by members of the Community Preservation Act Committee may change over time. Thank you. That's really helpful to hear. Yeah. I mean, Hilda's typed in the chat, can you call it research and design instead of planning? And then how is it different than the writer's walk? And there's other projects that have been funded with CPA too that are more plan-based to help essentially set up a framework for preservation. So I mean, I think you can frame it that way. I still think the question will be asked and we can always do a little more research to try to have information for the committee, the CPA committee. From Meg and Janet, part of the process is that the Community Preservation Act Committee will review the proposals for the applications, and then they'll generate, this is usually not works, they'll generate some questions for the applicant. And the applicant goes back and, you know, does some work to provide answers to the questions, so that there is this kind of process. Is that, Robin, would you agree that that's how it's working now? Yeah. I think that's roughly how it's working. Great. Okay. So maybe one thing, I feel like I'm talking too much here, but what maybe one to keep in mind is whether the planning project documents resources that are expected to be lost, or whether the planning project is working toward the preservation of those or some of those resources. Yeah, should we answer? Yeah, mostly. We're definitely trying to preserve the historic record. Fay Caner wrote voluminously about it and gave her notes to, I don't think I'm talking out of school, to Pete Westover, who was planning to write a book but didn't write it, and the notes are in the basement. You know, these are documents that will lose if we don't identify them and bring them to life. I'm sorry. I'm not familiar. I am familiar with this part of Amos, love it. I was involved last year in a project that's actually sounding rather similar to this in North Leverett, that was coordinated both by the Leverett Library as a sort of host community. We had meetings there. Of course, it was all pre-COVID, and Plurne-Bericious was involved in a sort of interpretive capacity, and we had a series of meetings and site visits to what are a series of canals that run along the road, Cove Hill Road, the barns and mill sites there. Absolutely fascinating and fairly accessible. We were a bunch of just interested people looking at this set of artifacts in the landscape, looking at the bodies of water, at some of the records that exist to support what was happening at the middle of the 18th, early 19th century. These were enterprising, entrepreneurial signs of really rural Western Massachusetts families, communities, making things work. It was really inspiring to be a part of those two meetings that were held at the library. I kind of fell off the map and didn't stay involved, but I think it would be very relevant for both Janet and Meg, or someone with your group, to be in touch with them to see where they are and where they are in terms of the status of that work. They had some similar goals to you in terms of the ways they wanted to involve community, in terms of interpretive planning and plaques and things like that. They were really hoping that it would kind of unify parts of that area and potentially help to connect historic entrepreneurial sites with contemporary entrepreneurial sites. I don't really know where I'm going with this in terms of the CPA committee, but I feel like there is the potential for very similar levels of research that could be done. I love that your making it essentially a public history project for UMass students, working with high school students. I don't know whether the parameters fit or not. I just think it's really great that you're bringing this to us. Thank you, Heddy. We're familiar with the Leverett project, actually. Eric Johnson, the archaeologist at UMass, worked with them. You're encouraging us to learn more about it and actually talk with them in more detail, but my understanding is that they weren't able to get funding. Okay. But we'll find that's good, but this sounds very similar vision for what they were trying to do. I think especially when we think about the 18th century in this country or in this region, we think of it as rural and in fact it isn't. It's incredibly worked and managed. The natural resources issues are really important for us to be delving into more, especially what's going on with climate issues and natural resources issues. I think the opportunity for those high school students to work with students at UMass is really valuable and something that they would remember. Also how people, entrepreneurial people without electricity were able to produce things they could sell and support their families. It really does remind us that how we live now is so dependent on complex technology. I'm getting beyond ourselves. That's not what we're trying to do. We're not trying to make any lessons about climate change or anything. I forget what you said, Heddy. I went too far with that comment. Can I just ask a question? Please. I've had my hand up a long time, but you didn't notice. I'm wondering if you should say, I guess it's too late to change the application now, but maybe when you present to the CPA committee, what you think about actually having physical plaques with the QR code or whatever, text identifying each site, that is to me a bit of a tipping point to make it sound more like you're producing something that CPA funds would support. Also, I think it's a wonderful project. I would just caution you, having worked on the Writers Walk for all these years, to be very, it's great to include students, both UMass and high school, but be very cautious about using their things wholesale without really doing the research yourself as well or checking their sources, because I found a lot of problematic statements in their work that had been uploaded to a website for these houses. Saying that as a professor, they're great. They can get enthusiastic, but you really have to check their work. Thank you. Could you say again your first point? I couldn't hear you identifying each site, Jan. In your written proposal, you didn't say anything clearly about having, you said some sort of little signs or something that would actually identify the site and give either a name or a QR code or something where people would then access more material, whether it's a website or a QR code or whatever. I don't see that specifically laid out and I think that could really help the CPA committee see themselves in this project. Also, think about who will maintain those, because they will be stolen, they'll be defaced, everything will happen to them, and you'll have to either ask the town to maintain them or come up with a budget for that. I mean, that's down the line, but it's something to think about. Thank you. Should I just interrupt? Rob and I see you have your hand up, but quickly, are all the properties town owned? That was one question I had. Yes, they're all a conservation town owned from the Cushman town and down to the park. Okay, and then I was doing a quick search of the CPA coalition. They have a project database and to Jan's point, in the last few years, there are probably two dozen projects that do some interpretive trail restoration or work or archaeology or something, but they really do have interpretive markers or signs and it really is about having interpretation of the site on the site and then making that publicly available. So it's not just creating a summary report and doing research on it, it's actually making the work publicly accessible on the site and perhaps online. So I think identification markers, all those things are really important. Otherwise, it's really just a research project that what Robin had asked it is we have to be able to defend it in terms of the eligibility criteria. So I think adding those markers or interpretation on the site is really important. Yeah, it's very much, maybe it wasn't clear in the proposal, but community archaeology is about the community taking ownership of their history and protecting it and traveling, you know, walking the trail and so on, but that's helpful to put that stronger, I think we can augment the proposal maybe. Also, you might consider doing what we plan to do for the writer's walk and that is having some sort of literature as small as a card available at the visitor's center in Amherst so that people know about it and, you know, have a reason to go out there. Right. And Robin, did you have your hand up? Oh, yeah, I just wanted to make a comment that mentioning the markers and the proposal definitely points to something more physical, but if they're not an actual deliverable of the project, if the project doesn't create them, then that also might be a sticking point. It started to be a stickler here, but I'm just trying to see how, and I'm actually curious about Nate, about the history of the writer's walk and how that, because I hadn't seen anything in terms of planning being funded for specifically that wasn't out of the historic commission itself. I think that speaks to Jane's earlier comment about, you know, if the composition of the board or understanding of CPA changes, then, you know, maybe the writer's walk sign project would be reviewed differently today than it was when it was funded, but. Right, right. So, Nate, I have my hand up. I'm sorry. Your question was when I was going to ask is who owns these properties. And so if it's part, the town does under a conservation covenant to the proposers, is there any second phase of trying to preserve the more intact cellars or walls or whatever? Not all of them, I'm sure, can be restored and they can't be restored to their original, but to preserve what exists now. Yes, the hope is to preserve what's there now, but not just the physical structures, but the history. Of course, but in order to continue to promote the history, one would think that there would be certain of these structures that could be physically made stronger or more preserved or just just a question. Right. I don't this is what the planning is about is how much will all this cost, you know, creating a budget, creating a timeline, which sites would be addressed first and second. That's what why we need a plan. Janet, did you have something to add? No, I think you covered it. That's the idea is to basically scope it out and then have a second phase. Right. The planning is a big deal because we don't know the cost. There's just a lot of to make this really work. We think we need a good plan and we need a good archaeologist who who works something like half time pulling together all the pieces, creating a budget, identifying which sites are most accessible, the timeline. How many years long is this project? Is this a five year project? Is it a 10 year project? You know, if we could do say three sites a year, there literally dozens of sites. So it's a big project. And so we're starting with planning. And none of us volunteers has the time or the skill to take that on. I guess we could go back to graduate school, become archaeologists, but we can't really. So this is why we want a planning grant, just to think some of this, to think all of this through. So I'm going to throw out something and ask for feedback from me, and Robin in particular and anybody else who would like to comment on this. I'm looking again at and this is again about the question of eligibility of the project. If this is along a trail, if these are historic resources along the trail that goes from Mill River eastward toward Cushman, then it could also maybe be considered partially a recreation category. And creation is permitted under recreation, although creation is not permitted under historic preservation. So I'm wondering if that would seem one way to have the planning nature of this more acceptable, eligible. Robin, do you have any thoughts on that? That's a really interesting idea. I mean, certainly I think the TPA can probably consider it under either category. It does seem, I mean, conservation and recreation seem more in line with, yeah, in line with the grid. I mean, I don't mean to be such a strict interpreter, but having gone through the last round of things and knowing where people are thinking. And to not see it as sitting on the grid isn't a question of the value of the project. I mean, I think it's a wonderful project. I'm just more of the details person here. So I think that's a great idea. And I could certainly bring that up at the CPA as well, that it'd be considered for funding under recreation as well or instead, if that's a better fit. Sorry, I stepped away. This is Nittigan. Yeah, it can't be conservation because you have to have acquired the land with CPA funds to rehab or restore it. So it could, it's same thing with recreation actually is a little bit more flexible. So it is an interesting idea. I was on the purpose pond committee long time ago, long, long time ago. And one of the interesting things that we became immediately aware of was how conservation and recreation are at odds with each other in terms of how land is used. And people don't want to change the trails around Puppers Pond because they really like walking really close to the pond. They don't want to conserve some of the habitat. But my concern about seeing this as recreation is whether the goal is to preserve these sites, not to jump around them. But I may be misunderstanding recreation. Well, it also may be that further down, I mean, further down the funding path. And I know that I think you said you didn't have other funders in your application. But if there were another way to get funding for the planning, even if you did it piece by piece, you know, as it unfolds, it becomes more of a physical project and maybe then falls more into the CPA category under historic preservation. And this is the course what happened with the levered project, not, not being able to get that initial plan. But that's true. We might be able to find some other funding we've so, but I'm hope we're going to give it our all with the CPA committee. So Meg and Janet, the process now, I just learned very pretty recently that the CPA committee will need the historical commission's recommendations about projects by, is it November 12th then? Correct. Yep. That's that's when they're actually voting. So probably a few days before then. What was that date again? November what? 12th. So the historical commission will actually, we realized that the historical commission will need another meeting in so that we can consider all of the applications adequately. So in this, so we really appreciate having you come and discuss this proposal with us when we are much better informed about it as we we need to, you know, kind of sort out our recommendations to the CPA committee. So this really helps. So I'm just sort of wanting to let you know what our next steps are. And I think maybe we've offered some thoughts about what the CPA committee may ask about and perhaps some strategies to prepare or have ready. Yes. Absolutely. Thank you. Very helpful. Janet, do you agree this was helpful? I can't thank you all enough. I thought it was wonderful and thank you. Well, thanks for, thanks for being here to talk with us about it. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And feel free to stay around for the rest of the CPA conversation. I'll have at least one more, probably more than one proposal to consider. So we should go to the good. Yeah, perfect. So we have believe Nancy Schroeder is here from there. So I'm going to promote Nancy to panelist. No, I don't care. I'll find out. I think hopefully shutting off. Yeah. So Nancy, you're going to have to unmute. Yep. Thank you, Ben. Thanks. Great. So yep, we can hear you now. And I'm not sure if you see the screen, but I have your proposal up. I do see it. Okay, great. So Nancy, you may have, you may have been here before when I just asked the District One Neighborhood Association just to share with us anything. I mean, for Goodwin Church, share anything else with us that you'd like to. We've looked at the application itself. We'll appreciate anything you have to say that will give us a better understanding of the project. And then certain commissioners may have other questions for you. Right. I really, I don't, I think I was as clear as I could be in writing the proposal. I think it'd be easier for me if you ask questions. Well, well, I mean, just, I'll just say we're trying to put on a new roof and replace the chimney and put insulation to the building which is, which was built in 1910. And we feel that that's a good preservation project. And it's certainly historic and historic building. And here's, here's the, I believe this is the National Register. She had at least some information about it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's on the National Register. And as I said in here, it's one of, what is it, one of five historic buildings named within the 2005 Amherst Preservation Plan. So either the National Historic Informat, there it is. That's the information. Okay. So pictures as well. It's individually. It's, it's part of a district or part of a contributing structure. Yeah. I think it's individually listed. Yes. Well, it's individually. I remember seeing that. Yeah. On the registry of historic places. On the national, okay. All right. On the national register. Right. Okay. So if it's on the national to start register, that makes it a contributing building to a, to a district, I think. Sorry. This is Nate. It is individually listed. Oh, the church building itself. Okay. Yeah. I just, I just looked quickly. Yeah. Is it part of a, is it part of a local district commission as well? No, the local historic district doesn't extend down that far. I was there just the other day. It's very close to the bonds that we went to look at back in the summer. Right. On, on Woodside. We looked at some right on South Pleasant. So I remember the original application that we approved and your description of what you had asked for. What ended up being done exactly with the money that was the 12,000, the 12,000 you got? No, you got 25,000. Right. Right. 12 went to Gillan associates and 12 basically went to mess archaeology. Oh, so you didn't actually get a chance to do any of the work? We weren't intending to. It was, Bill Gillan presented us with a capital needs plan. As I say in the proposal, it, given all the architectural accessibility requirements and the fact that we have no real land around the building, we have a perimeter maybe of 20 feet. The plans that he came up with in terms of meeting all our capital needs was not feasible. And I remember it being really difficult. Robin, is that raised? I'm sorry? Or Robin Fordham, your hand is raised. Yeah, I just want, we don't have to discuss this for a second, but I want to Nate to, or you to maybe remind us, there is some sort of issue with the intersection of CPA funds and churches and houses of worship. Is that correct? There shouldn't be any, any issue there, but some people may think so, but this has not, this has nothing to do with separation of church and state. Oh, I thought there was, I thought there was actually a decision around it, a challenge at some point recently, but maybe I'm remembering something. Oh, you're right. But there's a, I think it was in Concord actually, or Acton, and there's like a three part test to determine, but I think that it's different here. So it really is just preserving the structure. There's not, you know, any other, anything, anything else is happening. Well, it's not unlike preserving the window at the Unitarian Church. We're talking about historical historic preservation. And Robin, I was thinking, I thought you met the separation of church and state, which was brought up once or twice that town meeting. But no, you're right. There is a more recent case. Windows are, windows are outward facing and therefore a public resource, but, but, but anything interior would be a different issue. Is that what it is? No, the one with the recent case was there was, there's some question of whether or not the CPA money was actually helping to fund church operations and not necessarily restore the structure. So there's some question about kind of financial feasibility or capacity of the, of a, you know, church or parish. There was some question about when this case that was in question, they restored some religious imagery inside the church and whether or not that was across the line. And I forget the third, the third piece, but in any event, I feel like this case is, you know, pretty clear that they're following a plan to really restore the structure, you know, the outward structure. So it's not. But I, right, I think, I think we could. It also came up with the Jewish community building that old church when we were restoring steeple and everything. There was a lot of blowback from somebody. I don't remember if it was town meeting or someone saying that we should funding that we shouldn't give them money because they were religious organization. Right. Amherst has a kind of a mixed record with funding historic preservation of religious structures. So CPA has funded good one before it's funded first congregational church, but first congregational in the end decided to turn it down. Hope Church, CPA has funded and Amherst, I think it was town meeting, declined to fund preservation at the North Amherst congregational church for, for this kind of pseudo argument about separation of church and state. And I agree with Nate that it has nothing to really, it doesn't apply. Okay. So this, yeah, the CPA, sorry, the CPA coalition has a little bit of a summary on this court case, right? It was an act. And but I don't, I think it's, I don't think it's applicable. You know, and if that's brought up, we may have to have, you know, town attorney just provide some, some help there just if there's confusion. Yeah, I was just anticipating that question. I have a question about the insulation. Has the, has the structure ever been insulated before? There is some insulation in the ceiling. I don't think there is any insulation in the walls. I don't know that for sure. The reason I ask is that trying to sort of move, move beyond maintenance into preservation. So if it's newly introduced, that's a, that's to your advantage. Well, I know that there, there is some insulation in the, in the attic at this point. I, I can sort through the capital needs assessment. Again, I wasn't looking specifically for that in terms of the walls, but I can, I could find that out. Are there other questions, comments from commissioners or, or Ben or Nate? In my only comment Nancy is the budget is pretty low. Usually we wouldn't say that, but you know, given that the funds would not be available until next July and you know, you're not sure that CET could actually pay for the insulation and help subsidize it. I just want to make sure that, you know, I mean, you could say that, you know, is there contingency in there? Is there 20% or 25%? I mean, no, there's, you know, I just want to make sure that you wouldn't, you know, you'd get the funding and then you might not have enough. So you added 5,000 more on or 6,000. I don't know if that right number is. Yeah. And Nate, I was, you know, I got specific proposals for this and I didn't know and I understood that we needed to submit them, I guess. So that's what, you know, would, would I add a contingency of 20%? I mean, does that, I don't know. I've never done it before. But I don't recommend adding it because it's actually quite hard to find a woofer. You know, the timeframe of finding a good woofer in Amherst at the moment is probably 18 months to two years and even though Goodwin is quite a small building, it's a prominent building and an important building. So that's something to bear in mind. Yeah. Well, I can't, you know, I can't guarantee that Eugene and Jim Badastoni will do this work. They said they would next year. Eugene has had a connection with Goodwin and has done work many, many years ago. So he came right over to look at it. I, you know, I know that things change. But also at that bid you got was before COVID and I've just discovered that the cost of Amherst, for instance, has gone up two to two and a half times its original amount of material. I got all these bids within this month. Oh, I thought I saw nine, 19 on there. Okay. Well, still it could change by the time you have it done. I definitely suggest to make it higher. They can bring it down and give you less. Okay. I'm really so proud of it because you may get less anyway. No. That's, that sounds great. I'll be happy to add a contingency. Yeah, I think if you say it's a $25,000 project and, you know, you got 20% that, you know, I'll just put that attack, you know, $5,000 or $6,000 onto your CPA request just to make sure you're not, you know, you're not short a little bit. I just great. Yep. And it could be, I agree. I think it was how you said the, you know, there could be some permitting involved that could be longer before this starts and then if materials escalate in price. Yep. Yep. That's, if you're trying to convince me to add money to this, I'm fine with that. That'd be great. I appreciate it. What do you think about her statement that some of us would be held in reserve? Isn't that a mistake? I thought it said that if it wasn't used, it would be given back. Yeah, that's what I said. I thought it said if it receives matching funding, the church will have approximately 10,000 reserve to address future repairs and deferred. Oh, that's, that's, that is within our internal, we have, we have some money from the fundraiser that we had in October of 2019. I wouldn't tell CPA that. I wouldn't tell CPA that. Well, we need the reserve in order to keep going with our maintenance needs. We don't have any money. So the 10,000, if, if we don't have to spend all the money we got from fundraising on, on a roof and insulation, that means we have money in reserve for that then because it looks like the way you wrote it, it looks like if you get the funding, you'll have 10,000 you can put in reserve. It sounds like you came in. Yep. Okay. Yeah. Maybe just, yeah. The application has gone in, but it's a matter of being, I think, being prepared to answer the question if somebody raises it. No, or address it right off the bat. Sure. That's helpful. Thank you. Other comments? Robin, I saw your square light up from a moment. It's like a little bit like. No, no, no, Robin just typing. All right. Okay. If, if all questions and comments are settled, Nancy, let me ask you if you have questions for us. I don't think so. I think it's so, for me, at least it's so straightforward in terms of just getting, you know, new shingles, a new chimney and some insulation. And I hear what you're saying about whether it's the insulation is added or not added, you know, or already there. I don't know how to deal with that one exactly. But I guess we can wrestle that one to the ground with the CPA. No, I guess not. All right. Well, thank you. It's great to learn more about this project and it certainly is an important one. And I also have to say I'm thrilled about the Mill River. I sat and listened to all of it and I'd been walking with a friend the other day and he was pointing out all the, all the work that River did at one point and how important it was to, to begin to talk about that. So I'm really, I want to put a plug in for that one too. So thank you everybody. Thank you. Great. We have some town proposals. Yep, there's two, two town proposals for the slate roof repairs and for the town hall steps. So I'm going to bring in Jeremiah LaPlante, who's the town's facility manager and who put together these applications. Let's see. Jeremiah, are you here? Let's see. I'm here. Can you hear me? We can hear you. Yep. Okay. Wonderful. Great. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for hanging in there. So I'm not sure if you can see the screen, but I have your applications up on the screen right now. The slate roof repairs is here. So Jeremiah, are there things that you'd like to tell us about the project? I guess it's consolidating. It's a three roofing project. Yeah. Yeah. Three, three of the town buildings. So it is the town hall, Munson Memorial Library, and North Amherst School. So looking at three of those, those different buildings, all of which, as you could see, you could use some slate roof work, or one of the recommendations from a slate roof specialist was that North Amherst be replaced. This individual didn't see it being very cost effective to do repairs because we would be seeing some more and more pairs as we go on. And it was really just the sort of the nature of the slate that's on that particular building. And would that slate be replaced with the same kind of slate? Yeah. Yeah. So all of them, they would be replaced with light kinds. And say, we're to look at the town hall. The town hall has that beautiful red slate, and that's quarried in the New York Vermont line. And there's so few of quarries that actually produce that slate. So I would hate to see it replaced with anything but that New York slate. There is about 15 slate tiles on town hall that have been replaced with a gray. And I would have to guess what they did was they pulled some tiles from an area that you just wouldn't see. It's sort of in the shadow of the tower, the clock tower, and use those probably in an area that's much more visible. But it would be nice to see those replaced and have the original red slate. Munson has, I think it was a Vermont mull purple slate. It's much thicker, almost three quarters of an inch thick in some areas. So it's a much different slate tile there. And if you look at the write up for the Munson Memorial, I think it's not so much a slate issue at Munson. It's working on the flashing and water management. So we have all that flashing in those valleys. I know that they spoke about the peak. It is a slate peak. He had mentioned going over it with copper because it would be obviously a lot easier putting a copper piece up there that would look period like the town hall has a copper peak. And then also talked about gutters on the rear of Munson. Munson has had some water infiltration issues in the basement. Not much, but I think having these particulars repaired or replaced could help with that water infiltration. And kind of going back to North Amherst, kind of sort of long way around. But yes, North Amherst would be replaced. It is a more traditional Vermont gray slate. On the rear of the building, there's more brown tile, which is pretty standard to have that brown gray mix, but the brown is just deteriorating. So what that will mean is the wooden structure underneath will start to suffer. And like any good building, if you have a good roof and a good foundation, anything in between could be repaired or replaced, but you need to maintain those two pieces in order to keep the structures alive. So I have a couple of questions. One is, you mentioned early on that one of the roofs, I think it might have been North Amherst, was it had deteriorated because of the type of the tile? Yes. And so what is the expected longevity of a new roof and how does it retain? So typically from my research and from the information that I've received from the slate professional is we could see slate last anywhere from 70 years to 200 years, depending on which slate is put up there. And I know he was saying that even the depth of it when it was cord also plays a factor in it. Some of my research about the Vermont in New York, it sounded like they tend to last about 125 years. Like any roof, though, if you were to put an asphalt or a metal roof on it, they all do have a life expectancy and both Town Hall and North Amherst really they owe us nothing. The buildings were built in the late 1800s. So they've met the expectation of the slate. And my second question has to do with the gutters you mentioned, I think for Munson. Yes. Is that replacing existing gutters? On the rear of the building, it would be. So on the rear of the building, there's a smaller, I don't believe it's a four inch, it looks like a three inch aluminum. So traditionally, it would be a copper gutter. And they would typically have to remove a few courses of tile because of the weight of the gutters. And to have it properly flashed in, they would typically replace or remove three to four courses or it could be upwards of three feet, but it's about the same so that they can properly fasten it to the roof structure. So that is a big gutter way up there. So it needs to be done. Are there other questions from members of the commission? I'll say that an attendee named Mark has his hand raised. Mark, if you want to unmute yourself, make your comment. Okay, I muted him. Was that a relevant comment? I'm not sure. Jeremiah, were you expecting a mark? I wasn't. And I have also already had dinner. So unfortunately, I would not be enjoying that the smoke meats, although it did sound delicious. Okay. All right. That was a pretty tame zoom bomb, if that's what that was. So I'm not. Hedy is actually raising her hand. I've lost my hand raising feature here. I can't see it, but please, Hedy, go ahead. Rooms are just incredibly important. I think to buildings, I know that sounds pretty inane, but as Jeremiah said, if we take care of our roofs of our historic properties, we're doing the least we can as stewards of our historic fabric. And so I would just want to endorse the applications and what they're asking for. Flashing is also really important. Nothing sexy necessarily, but just incredibly important. Slate roofs are really, really beautiful. Hard to find people who can actually put slate roofs on. So we're not even just taking care of the properties. We're also providing employment for people who continue to know how to do slate roofs. That's good in my book. This is Nate. Thanks, Hedy. The 85,000 membrane, is that the North Amherst School for the back portion of the? Yeah. Yep. The flat portion of it. I haven't been up there and looked at it as it requires getting up on an extension ladder, but the the roofer that specializes in slate was up there and had a look at it. And from what he's saying, I have a lot of experience with that same style of membrane roof. It's an older JP Stevens product. And what happens with that product is it gets a lot of like almost like the thickness of a hair, these fissures in it. So as it ages, these fissures start to develop and then you'll start to see some leaks in it. It was widely popular because everyone wanted to go with that white that white membrane roof as it helped with the the heating and cooling of the buildings. But unfortunately, they just they haven't stood up the test of time kind of like the some of the Firestone products. Yeah, my my thought is that as a total request package is quite a bit. And so yes, you know, my thought is the CPA committee may ask you to prioritize structures and drop the membrane, because that seems like the least preservation oriented piece of this, right? I mean, it's really, you know, it's a capital need. I'm not sure how I know the North Amherst School's old, but in terms of visibility and preservation, the you know, the front of the building, the sides are really visible. The back part is not. So I just, you know, that's all I was just thinking. Yeah. And I originally I was I was sort of weighing that because I figured this would be would be asked to me. But but the membrane the membrane does run underneath the slate. I don't know how far it does. So if we were to replace all the slate and then in the coming years decided to do the membrane, it would require some additional slate work, we would have to remove the lower few courses again, and then flash it all in with the membrane. So if it could be done all at once, that would be the best case scenario. But you know, I just I had a feeling I was like, wow, that's a big number. That's a big number. And I was already starting to try to think about the priorities in my head. Okay, I'm going to ask Jan to make her comment. Yeah, that was my question. I was going to ask him if he could prioritize the three buildings. I also wanted to ask if the copper isn't that also to stop mold and mildew from forming? Does slate have to be cleaned the way other roofs do of mold? That that I'm not sure I do know that yes copper does have the properties to inhibit that that types of mold. I don't know that it's necessarily used be because of that for those older older buildings. I think if we were to look at some of the older structures, you would you would either find lead flashing or copper and copper just tend to be if you if you could afford it really. So would you would you did you put them in the breakdown in order of priority town hall months in North Amherst school or? I would I would say I don't have I haven't nailed that down yet where my heart is. I know that the town hall is is the least amount and and that is the most forward facing building for the town of Amherst. But if I was to look at the other two, you know, they both serve the community. One one has these infant toddler programs and community action. North North Amherst school and then the months in library sees just so many towns people from South Amherst. There's yeah it's not just the library it's also a meeting hall and a polling site. Yeah, the back hall is from from what I hear. It's been pretty empty from what I hear. It's always a bustle in there with a lot of activity. Yeah, I'm just pulling up the Google street view just so here's the back piece that yeah I've been mentioned. And you know here's the school building and I'll just go around to the you know if you go to the front you can see the you know this I mean even here it looks pretty old in weather and spots but yeah there's a lot of rusting so if you see on on the doorway and some other areas towards the right you can see rusting and a lot of that rusting is just due to the the nails in in any of that that substructure that's that's starting to deteriorate in wear over time so you'll you'll see the streaks of rust on the slate. So they're they're being held up there but but not by a lot. It is a quick question Jeremiah. Does that include the portico the entry too? There wasn't any I would have to assume but I would probably like to touch base with me and there was no breakout for it and he didn't in in our conversation it didn't sound like there was going to be a separate line item it was only for the membrane that there was a breakout. Jeremiah what can you tell me anything about what that what kind of capital renewal budget the town carries and in deferred maintenance for all of its structures are these buildings included in long-term maintenance plans and budgets? There is a lot of envelope and exterior maintenance in the capital. I don't I don't believe that there was anything for the roofs at North Amherst and I think partly that was not fully understanding where we were sort of at in in the the slate's lifespan but I would have to say that the town is is I'm relatively new I came aboard in late April so what I see is sort of what has already existed and I will have to say the town is phenomenal with setting aside money these capital this capital funding for these types of repairs. There is there is a some we're going to talk about the stairs next at town hall and there is some funding for that but like I said there is there is money out there for envelope and exterior building repairs just not to the extent that North Amherst needs right now. So for some projects in the past I'm thinking in particular of the Jones Library there have been questions about supplanting funds. If there are existing funds for this kind of long term maintenance it is may not be reasonable to expect that the community community preservation act fund would replace those funds. So I think you know the historical commission would like to be very clear about that and I assume that the CPA committee would also. Yeah and I had was looking at that I figure and if we had some money set aside and the total cost of the project was going to exceed the capital of money that we had that we would be giving up that to include that and toward the cost of this. I think we would like to know that in advance instead of giving back the money we'd like to know what's budgeted so we know what an appropriate request would be to support. I would have to look at that then to see exactly what what there is for capital funds for North Amherst specifically. Okay that yeah and for Town Hall and Munson Library also. Town Hall I could tell you it's 144,000. Because I was doing the research for the stairs in the room so I was adding up everything exterior envelope stairs all of the things combined came up to around 144,000. Great. That's the head start program pay any rent for the North Amherst School. I believe they do I just don't know what that amount is. Okay and that doesn't go into the town budget for maintaining the building directly or anything? I can't I don't have that information I would have to look at and I could get that information for you. All right are there any other questions? Robin, Jane, Heddy, Pat? I just think it would be important for us to have that financial information so that we would be able to weigh how much the CPA should be. All right Jeremiah would you like to move on to the next proposal? Certainly. Great Nate do you either want to zoom to Town Hall or? Yeah sorry let me uh it's okay. Then Jan you had your hand raised but maybe that was a leftover hand raise? Yeah I think it went away when I asked the question. All right so the second request is to repair the front steps to Town Hall. There has already been some great work that was done on the the big arching doorways. Those were put back in I think it was early May and they just look phenomenal and I want to sort of continue those efforts and and have the the stairs repaired. So even in this photo you can see on the left hand side or right hand side on the walls on the side the side of the stairs you can see the gapping that there is and even the these sort of I'll call them sort of insensitive repairs that's happened at the bottom step of those stairs. So I'm really looking at trying to get the funds to pull that whole structure out piece by piece they will lay they will label every single one of those granite stones and then pull out whatever that sub whatever the substructure is in in the soils and put down a new substructure and then lay all that granite steps and blocks on top of that because the stairs I mean I think in my my write up I said this you know these stairs this door has welcomed the town's people for for over a hundred years and and we really want to to make sure that that they are in the best shape they can be in they they are exposed to all the weather elements and again just a weight of that is is starting to to wear on these stairs. You see some arching and in each of those steps where where the structure's on either side or is sort of pushing into the into the ground and that's why you see them almost like sliding forward. I think it's really important that that we pull that apart and rebuild it and put it back like it was put there you know over a hundred years ago. So you're not looking to replace the granite used in the steps. No. You're looking more to make a firmer foundation and rebuild using the same materials. Correct. Yep everything the handrails all of that to keep them to clean them up and put them back and in in the proposal I had also included the the south's facing stairs so those are there's a small set of stairs that face the church and they they could use some TLC as well and it's a similar similar type issues. Some of the pointing is is just crumbling out and you see some leaching coming out of that so you have that calcium in line that's coming out of out of the pointing and it's on the granite so and it's it's moisture it's frost so it really is all all of our New England climate really plays into it but beyond that it's massive granite stones that are just sort of sinking a little bit. Jeremiah just the I know that the town hall was repointed I can't remember whether it was 2007 or like 1997 but were the steps addressed at that point? I'm not sure about that I know that there was a major renovation in 97-98. It does look like there's been repointing in a lot of the granite block around that lower band around the building. I would imagine that they probably address some of the stairs but it's in some ways a little bit different there's a different approach because there's there's just these monolithic blocks opposed to a less deep it's like a veneer that's around the rest of the building so you really need to remove as much of that pointing as possible as deep as possible it because if not it'll just push it out again and that's what we're seeing in a lot of that the pointing. Yeah I think the this is they actually think Jane the repointing may have been done in the 2000 2012 I think it was some of that was done but they I'm not sure they I know they they did try to you know tuck in the these gaps but it's just it's just following out and so there wasn't any you know any you know it wasn't part of the project to try to stabilize this or do any stonework here it was just you know and I think they may have done some like caulking like you know Jeremiah said on these steps here just for water infiltration but it wasn't you know that wasn't really part of the project I mean they really you know they really worked on you know they really did a good job you know doing this and they fluted it really well and everything but they did step say just you can even see it's just like yeah kind of falling out so the gaps are actually too big for the I can see it right there on the bottom step I think yeah it's just it's the gaps are too big for what they use so um Jeremiah I mean are they actually going to take these blocks out and reset them because I mean right now the gaps are too big yeah yeah they would take them out they would clean them off stage them uh and then they would be able to pull out any substructure that's there a pour a new sort of foundation bring in some soil compact and then rebuild the stairs over that and then just I use my we just mentioned that would these railings be able to um be kept and replaced or do you need new railings yeah the the intent is to keep those railings and that's center that's center brass railing as well okay yeah that might need a variance from the aab mass there are probably more than one variance that's going to be needed beyond yes because that that center handrail is is probably around a three inch diameter the steps are also closer to eight inches as a as a rise so neither one of those meet the the ADA regulations so we're going to have to we would have to get variances so 144,000 you mentioned earlier can that be applied against the 265 one 144 was everything I got that would be me turning out all my pockets but we do have a specific line item for the front entryway of town hall so the the town had set aside a hundred thousand dollars we used a portion of that money to redo the the doors so I still have around 74,000 left over of that particular line item but looking at some of the other exterior capital funds line items and building envelope it all it all in total comes to 144 if I could I would love to retain some for other other items I know I have windows I can I can replace but there is 144 total for exterior work great Nate or Jeremiah was there I noticed you sent like architects drawings I think that Coon Riddle had done yes yes so those are those are draft draw architectural drawings for this the stairs um and there's um and there's also I believe it was the was like the bid documents or draft draft or construction documents as well here you go yep the bids yep there's the bids that have some drawings so it highlights some of these areas that are are very concerning you could see some of those lower blocks see how all of them have a coating every block has a code so all of that information on that side so we would know when those when that veneer goes back it would be in exactly the same place and in just just in the last couple days I did get another a bill so or a really a proposal um so because again for this one the money it's it's a quite a bit of money to have these stairs done but I I got a proposal to bring this draft set into a construction set and that's that's going to cost 18 000 so just nothing's cheap so so the construction documents is that included so the construction documents yeah I have that would that would go into this money here yeah yeah so the 18 000 is represented in architectural assessment design well that would just be for the south steps yeah so the 18 000 would fall in that 120 and 90 so the the variance is in a permitting would fall into that that 90 as well and the material storage and staging and that that is all of those granite those monolithic blocks being pulled away and cleaned and then and set somewhere I think that's going to be a sort of logistic challenge yeah it's a lot of granite yeah it's a lot of granite and I don't want it to turn into a play set so I'll I'll just say that you know we have small projects applications that come to CPA and the Historical Commission from smaller organizations and you know I expect the town to budget for its for its maintenance and repair so I'm you know I'm kind of torn about these projects they are you know I can see them as preservation projects but I don't think the CPA fund is intended to be a piggy bank for maintenance uh especially for a budget as large as the town of Amherst has so I that's a personal view and I don't I don't anticipate that everyone will agree with it but I think you know that's a concern when we're dealing with monies that are intended to serve community preservation purposes um this is Robin I just wanted to add or add to that looking for the same sort of clarification I guess I look at these projects and I think what part of it because it's historic and requires extra care needs extra funding from the town um that would be a good use of CPA funds if that if that makes sense that you know that you're always going to have these maintenance issues but what aspect of it adds something to the cost of doing it the right way um so yeah I'd like to see more more detail in that regard yeah I was wondering if you didn't want to separate the two the south steps um and the main entrance uh just to make it smaller um and then write the description of what you're doing um more as Robin was saying that it is preservation of a historic piece with a particular cost because it's preservation not just maintenance I think that's more convincing if you can slant it that way um and that it costs more because of that I mean you sort of said that to us that you know people have tried to do a bit of tuck pointing and a bit of grout and this and that but it hasn't been right and they really as historical blocks of stone need to be moved clean and you know reinforced need and that's I'd like to see in the application that it's different than maintenance I guess that makes sense yep absolutely yeah I tried to write up and sort of at least speak to that a bit and as you could see the years of of these sort of minor repairs um and and I think that was the town you know trying to keep up on stuff uh on those general repairs uh but some of them you could see are are are really a little insensitive and and I think having having us go to uh a specialized stone the stone mason someone who deals with um monolithic block rather than um someone who might build a firebox uh at a residential home it's it is a different more unique individual um masons aren't really working with with these large blocks like they once did so trying to find someone that can do that I think the front steps we just sort of found ourselves in a position that it's it's not necessarily not maintaining its time um the time has has gotten us to this point yeah restoration instead of repair because that's really what you're doing you're trying to restore yeah and and I was thinking about the breakout and really the my priority if I was to look at the sets of stairs would be the front steps I know that the south steps would probably be much easier to to uh accept as far as the the cost um because it is much lower but it is only a set of stairs that it's used for emergency egress and it's not used for the community so oh well it would it would be if there was an ever an issue but the front steps is what's inviting that's the steps that everyone walks up to go to central services to go see the clerks or to visit the town manager uh it's not the south steps that we really don't see so if if I was to push those would be the ones that I would want to see restore that but I I I'm agreeing with the distinction between restoration and maintenance and I'm wondering if the cost of restoring the steps could be separated out from making the new base for the steps because that's that's a maintenance issue if they're sinking that's something that is part of maintenance where having the stone mason's you talk about restore the blocks and and rebuild them is a restoration and that might be a way to equalize the cost with the funds that the town has versus what you asked from CPA I don't really think that the one is restoration and the other isn't I mean you have to rebuild the base to put those back that's part of restoring the overall structure well it is but but it's the restoration I guess it's splitting hairs Jen but it just seems if if there's a way to present the request for CPA funds where the town owns a piece of the maintenance yeah yeah I see what you're trying to do I just think it's going to be tough to yeah I don't disagree I just was wondering how you could break it out so that it would be be understood better by those who were deciding about the CPA funds right are there other questions or comments about the town hall steps I see Robin's hand that's a stale hand sorry okay well Jeremiah thanks very much for coming to yeah we'll talk about these proposals this is a lot of a lot of work on some important town buildings thank you thank you for having me thanks I appreciate it good night Jeremiah good night um so we are now at 8 30 I think we need to close up the CPA proposals now are there what what is the appetite for looking at the rest anything else on this agenda that is important for this evening hmm just voting on the DRB CPA representative might be good just because it's good news okay all right okay well let's take a vote on our design review board and community preservation act representatives and I think that we voted on me last month because I took the minutes and then I didn't forward them to the committee I I feel like we had voted on it two meetings ago too because I feel like I remember on one of the last meetings that I took minutes putting in that we had made you the CPA rep again well I'm looking at my election that you've been elected I'd like to try I've definitely seen it in the minutes for the 19th which I'm looking at here yeah all right well I I remember it is an elect was it an electronic vote are we allowed to vote electronic it was a roll call though yeah like we had people I think members had chimed in over email and then like right before the meeting and then at that last meeting we just made it official all right yep so yeah that must be yeah that must be a holdover from last meeting so cross out CPA I guess it's really DRB we do need a design review board and am I imagining things fan that you Paul Bakerman asked me if I would continue but I would have to be elected by you all and I said I would if you if you all would all right well I would like to move that we make Jan the representative of the design review board yeah second second thank you and so we'll have a roll call the pack off I agree Robin Fordham agree Jan Marquardt I recused myself I voted for myself about a Jane Shepard I'm in favor okay and heady start up hello heady where did he go he's trying to unmute it unmute I'm sorry I muted myself I'm in favor but and Jane Wald I'm in favor too so there we go it's thank you all thank you Jan more DRB fun yep thank you thank you Jan and thank you Robin yes Robin has a welcome question from uh Hilda Greenbaum about asking yeah he's going to talk about the North Amherst library yeah I just saw that so um the North Amherst library application actually came from our DPW I noticed Gelford mooring had submitted the application um and I was I didn't think Jeremiah was aware of that of that project um so that's why at a subsequent meeting we'll need to have DBW present that application all right and then so let's you want to go to Ryder's Walk yeah so we are very close to executing a contract with our FX for the construction of those of the signs um woo woo yep so almost time to celebrate um I think there's just uh we wanted to confirm with DPW because they're doing the installation to make sure that the specs came in kind of like compatible with whatever footing that they're going to put in the ground just to make sure that you know the footing will line up with the post and everything because I think it's you know I don't even know how long this project has been going on I just started here but I have a feeling that it's been a while since DPW has probably been born yet then yeah exactly um so yeah basically um Anthony is gonna uh send out the execute the contract get that started um within this week just as soon as we hear back from DPW um but they their bid came in um a couple weeks ago and then we've just been having a little bit of a correspondence with them um and it should be good to go very soon yeah we just make sure that the website is modified for recent changes like the name of the boltwood in and make sure the numbers on the website are the same as the numbers on the map that we have now and we'll to do that we're gonna have to contact the UMass prof because we're just um linking to that site um and if that doesn't work we're gonna have to figure out a way to transfer the information from that site to the town or something so that we can update it uh but Hedy and I are going to walk the tour on Friday to make sure it really is the first route um before we nail anything down does it sound like this can be installed this season before winter when is the ground going to freeze well I hear from contractors that that'll be December great it should be able to then right Ben how long is it taken to manufacture these things um I'm looking at the quote right now I think it was delivery it says approximately four to five weeks okay so they can't start till we finalize the artwork right but during the four to five weeks we could fix the website so all we really need to do is make sure that that address is right and then Friday we can give you the thumbs up on the route to make sure we don't to Seth doesn't have to change any numbers or anything okay this is Nate I thought um did Seth email us yes he sent us the artwork yeah yeah so we just yeah I think we're gonna verify that I think Ben had noticed that west cemetery or something had been mislabeled need to update just a few things on the sign panels um but yeah yeah yeah I noticed in Seth's response he he just removed the name of the cemetery altogether instead of oh okay yeah because it said wildwood cemetery and then yeah but he just took it out so what do we want it to at least say west cemetery yeah it needs to say that yeah yeah I mean it's also it's you know it's it's shown on the panel so it's nice to call it out as a landmark yeah yeah um and so we're just gonna walk it in the order that I did the one through 12 or at least one through 10 and um if for some reason it just seems wacky that I was wrong we'll just have him really quickly switch the numbers and the order and be hard yeah but I think it works I mean it made sense to me when I organized it right so but that's just like our final way of you know crossing all the teas and dotting all the eyes yeah that's great news yeah wonderful come on Jan thanks for all your hard work on it Jan and Nate everybody bring a bottle of champagne to the next meeting at the same time on screen well not next time when it's actually happening when we can walk it and see the signs we'll end with a champagne feast yeah we can break a bottle over one of the posts when they put a manner that sounds great what fun um let's see we need to see if there is any public comment yeah so any members of the public can feel free to raise their hand if they want to make a comment so it looks like I'll allow Hilda to talk although you can go ahead I don't really have anything to say but I was just upset that the the the town was applying for money we had a Molly Turner Pat Holland and I had applied for that money last year but we really weren't in a position to go forward and the manager really would like to go forward on on this project where this work to be done on the old library so can I guess I'll find out by watching the agendas when Guilford brings it forward mm-hmm yeah exactly it's not a lot of money but this is a project that's being paid for privately so if the private person can get some help they would appreciate it I think the next historical commission meeting will be when the there's a few CPA proposals left to be discussed and they'll all be on that that agenda so it'll be before the 12th presumably of November yes okay and then we prioritize our list right and send it to CPA at that meeting yeah so when is our next meeting I thought it was Wednesday of this week is that not right no today is Wednesday of this week we moved it I thought we moved this from Wednesday of last week and that we had went on Wednesday of this week as well oh can I ask you guys to keep on top of the North Amherst library so in case it gets lost somewhere at that application next time so the um well we're just I was gonna say while we're talking about that you know November 11th is a holiday um it's a Wednesday the 10th is a Tuesday the 9th is a Monday and that's you know only two weeks from today so I get wow that's is that really true November 2nd is two weeks from today yeah that's right yeah that's kind of scary so you know I don't know what the commission schedule what you'd like it to be but you know there's a few things that could happen on that meeting there's the CPA proposals there's the um bylaw um work the preservation bylaw there could be a few product updates so um do you want to meet on the 9th or 10th or the previous week in I guess that's I think the previous week would be safer and I think probably most of the meeting will be CPA and what do you think EX I feel like um I mean I think the CPA committees vote actually voting on the 12th but I think they're they're hearing presentations according to the schedule I got they're hearing presentations like almost every week up until then and so I feel like the sooner that we can get them our you know evaluation the better um as opposed to just giving it to them right before the 12th so what is what is the I don't have it in my schedule what is the first um deliberating CPA committee like not the end of proposals I guess is when we usually if there's time we start to deliberate I mean Robin so one thing right now is you know I don't know if Ben has one but there's no calendar of the CPA committee meetings what we've heard is that's really accelerated this year and at the CPA committee he's actually going to try to vote to recommend you know vote the recommendations and by the end of November so I mean that's a really quick turnaround compared to the typical process yeah I mean I I have I definitely I just left my desk I have the schedule at my desk I thought um but I can look it up um but yeah it's um it's definitely definitely trying to move quickly what about if we meet next week so we can get our recommendations in can we meet at this time next week that's fine with me yeah I I I have the local historic district meeting on next Monday and it's I actually I on my calendar our regular meeting was supposed to be the 21st and then we put an additional meeting the 14th so we backed up from all of this and the meeting that got changed was the meeting on the 14th that got moved to tonight and so I'm just I'm looking at my calendar and that was what we decided the last meeting I believe but I could I could Wednesday we should keep if everybody still has that open Wednesday the 21st yeah yeah I think we didn't post the agenda in time enough for that meeting though um okay well then Monday the 26th I have a conflict that could could happen at 3 30 on the 26th I was reserving the 21st would the 27th or 28th work for no no those are committed the 29th could work uh but hey you're not good on Thursdays right yeah Thursdays to me but um Thursdays don't work because that's when the CPA meets okay well what about can um Ben can you come to part of it and Nate could cover when you're not on it when is yeah well the yeah historic district is that that's uh at four I believe so so you might be done by 6 30 why get out of your chair yeah what date are we talking about 26 yeah Nate and I could tag team both meeting somehow we could make it work I think Nate is out yeah and I think it's likely I could be there because what's happening on my calendar is there's an event on the 25th that the rain date is the 26th but if the weather forecast is even remotely accurate the 25th is supposed to be good so I won't need the rain date but at the very least I would be late well and it's at 6 30 not 6 so it gives you more time right Robin is that okay with you Hattie yes good good with me or works for me all right so six uh we I think we better if if we schedule it we should probably keep it at 6 30 and not push it to seven and we need to let Jane know because she's not on anymore yeah um okay so 6 30 on the 26th yeah Nate does that seem doable between the two of us oh yeah yeah you've got enough time to post it yeah we've got enough time to post it and it's better than taking make sure the other meeting is over by six and then yeah have a little break so I'm supposed to be at that LHD meeting too that's great yeah but you can all eat during our meeting as long as you go off camera and you don't talk with your mouth we're just at a meeting recently and someone said oh yeah you can eat totally eat when you're on a zoom meeting and I was like you can huh yeah just turn off the video well I've been meeting zoom meetings now where people eat with the video on all right well so that looks good for our next meeting and um the those applicants to be invited um oh there's one thing I wanted to say about CPA um yeah I understood I understand that the Amherst Historical Society submitted an application but it was declined at the staff level so um so if all these other applications have been accepted at the staff level then um you know the town staff you mean yeah yep and I don't know it seems like to me it seems like it should have come forward to us but was it incomplete or just because they've had so many of something I mean if it's incomplete that would make sense no those the Historical Society submitted a proposal um in part most of it was for um legal fees and work to determine you know if if they can have capital projects on the property you know so you know what what can happen with the building and the structure and clear the title yeah and staff um you know uh in accounting they work with CPA and they you know they said that it's categorically and you know just ineligible because it's not preservation and you know I'm trying to get a meeting with the different staff people and in the Historical Society to discuss it so you know I'm not I'm trying to I was trying to get it scheduled for later this week just so we can talk through it I think you know I think again when we were talking with um Meg earlier this evening about the trail in North Amherst there's you know some degree of interpretation and whether it's flexibility or inflexibility with what what that means so um yeah I don't you know I yeah it's interesting I mean I almost think it could have um you know could have almost gone to the CPA committee or to the commission to make the decision um and um you know staff has some opinion from when the Historical Society submitted something similar a few years ago and they just sent an email the staff did later this evening and um it is somewhat applicable to this um proposal but I think there's some some areas where it doesn't directly apply so you know it's one of those things where maybe it's by the time we meet next time it's going to be back on the docket I don't know all right well I guess we have done as much as we can do tonight I just noticed I held that had her end up still I don't know if that's a stale hand or not but I think it's a new hand a new hand okay oh I'm I'm not muted okay um I have a question for you do you have any idea how much money there is for historical preservation or how much money in CPAC of which is 10% is required um I think I've heard that you know that they have a little less than a million dollars um you know then I don't know if that's excluding debt service or not so that's for everything that's for everything right so I think there might have been a um I don't know the right term for it a holdover of historical preservation funds from the last cycle if I'm remembering correctly you know a rollover from one year to the next to meter 10 percent if we get money back didn't we turn some money back in do we get to hang on to it as historical it doesn't go back into a general pot it goes back into the general fund the general reserves for cpa okay all right is there a motion to adjourn also move thank you wonderful all in favor I think there's no hi thank you all right lovely it's been a a very full meeting so thanks yeah everything so kill the 26 same time same stage okay thank you everybody have a good week everybody