 Welcome today to this subscriber speaker guest event hosted by 42 courses with our guest, Jules Goddard. We are absolutely honoured to be joined by such a legend with such an amazing career in New York back in the day in Ogilvy. I'm sure he has many stories to tell of the early days. He spent time in France working in France and whilst he was working on his doctoral thesis and then came to the London Business School where he is now a fellow and very much part of the makeup of the university. And also is on the Academic Council of European Centre for Executive Development at NSAID. I mean really a fantastic career and we are, as I say, honoured to have you join us today, Jules. Thank you, Louise. I wish I were a legend, but let's pretend the next. You're a legend to us, Jules. So Jules is also the author of several books, most recently Mavericks, How Bold Leadership Changes the World. He wrote that with David Lewis. And of course, Jules is a guest speaker in our course for 42 courses, Creative Leadership. But let's go back now, Jules, and the book that I mentioned, Mavericks, which is very much a passion subject for you. Tell us how you came. First of all, I've said about your journey. Tell us in your own words a bit more about your journey and then how this leads into your most recent book that you wrote. Thank you, Louise. And lovely to be with you all. Thank you for joining us. Yes, I started life, I guess, my working life in Ogilvy. I got to know David Ogilvy very well. And when he moved, when he retired and moved to France to this beautiful chateau on the Loire. I lived in those days in the Dordogne, just about 100 miles south that would often drive up and meet him and his wife and talk about life and so on. And I learned an enormous amount from David Ogilvy. He was passionate about writing as one would speak, writing readably. I remember the day I arrived to work in his offices. I think there were three books on my desk awaiting me one was, of course, David Ogilvy's Confessions of an Advertising Man, a wonderful book, of course, one of the finest books ever written on marketing, I think. It was a golden book of writing it was by Dartmouth Professor on Principles of writing in a highly readable manner and actually David was spent quite a bit of the day, simply intervening in communications between different people within the agency and with a blue pencil literally changing communications between, you know, the creative department of the accounts group, making them all need it more readable or more, more beautifully written and so on. And then there was another book called obvious Adams, which was an article from the New Yorker if I remember which in 1924 and obvious Adams was rather like that Peter Sellers character you remember he seemed stupid or extra exceptionally naive but always had the answer to quite complex problems. And Ogilvy always believed that the right answer was one you'd wished you thought of if only you gave your permission to be quite simple. One of those three books had a huge influence on me. Later in my life I returned to France to have a place in Povance, which is very nice. But Mavericks was really very brief in Mavericks. David Ogilvy was a Maverick. I've moved with around with many, many Mavericks in my life in fact we're all Mavericks deep down it's the child within us I think it's the, it's the playful person within us who needs to find expression in life both at work, and in the family and in life generally I think, and I wanted to feature Mavericks as a kind of style of leadership that didn't entail followership, because I've always worried about those who take the stance of following others in life I think it's quite unhealthy and I think when business schools specialise as they do on leadership that too is slightly unhealthy because most models of leadership entail followership, and life is not about following others. I think life is about making one's own life if you see what I mean. I do that's quite a strong statement jewels and there is very much a follower culture these days with obviously the huge growth in both social media and influences and we don't I think feel any shame in saying oh I follow such and such and you feel it's because you're, you know, getting the wisdom of being able to see their words but you see a little bit of a challenge in that. Very good as a very well put question. I'm, I naturally always have been I've had lots of heroes in life, many of them philosophers some of them scientists and because my father was a painter, many of them painters. And this fell victim slightly of hero worship and there's a, there's a danger there isn't that that that in, in all of others. We feel unable to construct a life of our own that has heroic elements and so on and of course it's important to follow ideas I think thought leaders are very interesting those who lay down a pattern of thinking that's really liberating why shouldn't we follow such leaders such such thought leaders. I suppose it's really an element of servitude that I'm fearful of or leading a passive life rather than an active life. I'm being too easily taken in particularly in the workplace, finding oneself at the receiving end of instructions required to comply and of course philosophically this is dangerous because the workplace can be a place where instrumental issues dominate in other words people are treated as means, rather than ends as means to the company's success, rather than ends in their own right. And I suppose that's, in a sense the Kantian notion of, of treating others as ends. It is the origin of my fear about excessive followership if I can put it that way Louise. And you mentioned as well earlier the importance of play of remaining playful and of course you are the host of the school of uncommon sense and I know when we chatted earlier. We talked about how Rory Rory Sutherland had said himself very much that he's almost feared for the lack of humor in the workplace today. And how do you see about that Jill. Again, it's a very well put question Rory is one of my heroes so I'm a follower of Rory. He's not only a wonderful thinker I think he's a wonderful person, I think he has huge humility I mean I know he loves talking he's full of ideas. He is exceptionally gifted and I think Rory would agree with me that the workplace needs to be more playful. We tend to think of work as toil as a kind of duty. Perhaps as a way of earning our living, rather than a place where we make a life as opposed to making a livelihood. And I think that's a bit dangerous, I think that the contrast between workers toil and workers play is quite an important but I, I lead a philosophy program in front and blow and I was working the other day with Alan. André Conspoville I suppose the most distinguished French philosopher Hennie asked us all, if you were not paid to go to work, would you still go to work? Or better put, if we were independently wealthy, would we still choose to go to work to spend time with colleagues doing what we do for the customers that we serve. I think if the answer is no, then there's something severely wrong with the workplace. If it feels like a punishment rather than a joy, if we put it that way, something's wrong and I think a very interesting principle of management should be to design the workplace such that it's so pleasurable. It's much fun to be there. It's so intrinsically motivating that even if you weren't paid assuming the money was coming from elsewhere, we would still work with the colleagues we have, doing something like the work that we're already doing, and that would be such a compliment to a workplace if it were designed to be there, but very few workplaces live up to that standard. And I think as a result are not, if I can put it this way, as wealth creating, as those that are, you know, genuinely playful. I'm very pertinent in the huge discussion at the moment about the return to office and earlier on with me you were alluding to this balance of the employees and the employers, and that it shouldn't be the place, the employers place that the employees come to in a way you sort of saying the power is with the employees. Yes, I think so I am thinking of writing a book with the following title from human resources to resourceful humans. And I'm slightly fearful of the notion of employment itself I, we are expected to apologize for many things that our ancestors did particularly the British Empire, and particularly our connection with slavery. And the question that I pose in my own mind is what will our descendants be apologizing for on our behalf. What are we doing today that would seem to be morally upright and perfectly straightforward and fair, but which in the future, we will realize to be, you know, hugely morally compromised. And I think one thought maybe the notion of employment. I'm sure that it's right for there to be employers and employees rather than co owners of the same business there may be some who have a much greater stake in the firm than others. And I'm not I'm uncomfortable when some of us are placed in the condition of being more dependent upon others than they are upon us, because that can lead to a sense of victimhood, a sense of failure in life and so on. And the one thing we owe one another is this, this treatment in such a way that we are all the beneficiaries of our relationship. We do not work for the company, the company works for us. If we say we're working for the company then the company has been reified to use a philosophical expression that that becomes the end, and we are merely the instrumental means for the company's success. I think that's very unhealthy. I think the right way to think is that companies are very useful because they bring us all together so that we can achieve our own purposes and aims. It's better than we could do otherwise, because we're working with others who are pursuing, who are pursuing their aims and purposes and their life and otherwise collectively, we're achieving something much much more than we could ever achieve separately. And therefore the company the organization becomes the means to that mutual and reciprocal success, if I can put it that way. It seems on the face of it, such a radical idea and then when you just reflect of course it's a very socialist cooperative idea as old as the hills. It's fascinating to hear you speak about that and it's talking about the employees it's certainly of a part of the creative leadership course when you talk about a particular project that one particular company had, where they drew on the employees to bring in other members of staff with a reward would you mind just sharing that story? Yes. Yes. I'm allowed I think to mention it happened so long ago to be allowed to mention Unilever was one of my main clients when I was very young. And they were very concerned in those days about whether they were recruiting, you know, the very best out of top universities. I suspect they were by the way they had an immense draw they probably still do but in those days it was one of those companies that graduates of top universities wanted to work for. But they thought they could do better still and one of the ideas I hatched which they put into practice for a while I don't know for how long was to offer let's say a Cambridge student a place on condition that that student could amongst his colleagues and associates find another student whom he thought Cambridge would Unilever would really really benefit from in other words we all know when the students who the really bright ones are and therefore we'll know whom Unilever should if they could be recruiting if only they had our knowledge so the deal was bring in another person. Obviously the other person would have to agree. And then your salary the first three years was dependent at least in part upon the success of the person you brought into Cambridge. And that was quite a clever way of tapping into the wisdom of the recruiting class from that university if you see what I mean I hope I've explained it. Very much so and I love the idea of the experimentation of that great fan of behavioral science I'm a great fan as well of course of experimentation I know that as a concept is something that you are very much interested in. Yes, I share one story to why I think it's important I think ideas can be distributed across a normal distribution there's a whole lot of ideas in the middle that are sensible. Let's call them common sense general practice, the right way to do things. It's always been done, and so on, but business has a moral imperative to leave the common sense and move in a rather risky fashion outside the bounds of good sense to take the risk to do things differently to pioneer better ways of doing things hence, you know the very progressive quality that markets have the problem is that when you move outside of that middle band, you can either move to the right to a brilliant idea, or to the left to a genuinely stupid idea. The problem is that our minds are not very good at separating between the brilliant and the stupid if they haven't been tried, because many of the greatest scientific breakthroughs originated as potentially foolish ideas. The Darwinian notion that we're the descendants of bacteria must be one of the silliest ideas man has ever conceived. It just happens probably to be true. So we need experimentation to separate the risky ideas that are true helpful effective from those ideas that are and regressive and unhelpful of wealth destroying, because our minds without trying them out, our minds can never tell the difference and experimentation allows nature or reality to make those choices, given a beautifully designed experiment. I do not therefore depend upon experts or leaders who are probably not very gifted at knowing in the future, what will work or what will not work. So that's where I see the origins of the power of experimentation in business. It's the more scientific way of making decisions, of course. In that description it makes me think that it's almost to refer to Nazim Nicholas Taylor but it's like the good ideas are actually the black swans. Exactly. Exactly. And black swans can't be so to speak easily predicted or easily understood. They take us by surprise and aren't we lucky as human beings that we, we can recognize the unexpected because when the world takes us by surprise. And he's telling us that something in our makeup in our assumption set has let us down we expected X, but why happened. So what was the flawed assumption that led us to believe in X rather than why. So it's a signal that we're mistaken that we're fallible creatures. And therefore we need to explore which assumptions we should discard, and perhaps which new assumptions we should try out. I mean, of course, as I referred to earlier you've a wealth of experience and must have seen great changes, you know, in fashion out of fashion, when we're talking about the subject of creative leadership. Do you see leadership as having improved when we all know there are vast improvements coming building equality diversity. We refer back obviously with huge respect as we all do the way that David Ogilvy ran the firm and your learnings from him. So I suppose what I'm really asking is, you know, we like to think we've moved forward but have we have do you think we have moved forward. I want to say yes, I'm an optimist. I believe the world is getting better on most dimensions. There is a crisis of confidence, I think, in our leaders in Europe, in particular, at the moment whether in the public sphere and politics and so on and in the private sphere. And when we lose confidence, when we're slightly fearful of the future, all sorts of things are lost to humanity. I like Kenneth Clark's definition of civilization. You're all too young to remember the wonderful series you made on civilization. But the end of describing, you know, 10 centuries of civilization, he asked himself, you know, how would I define civilization. He's standing on the left bank of the sand looking across the river to Notre Dame. And he looks at the cathedral and he says civilization, if it is to be distilled into a single word is confidence. And I'm not sure that we have the confidence we need at the moment we find we're very good at finding fault in things. We're very good at pointing out where things are not working. But we're not very good at envisioning a better, more hopeful future, I think. I think it's probably true of the states as well. I was educated in the states. And one of the things I discovered, I mean I was very young, I was in my early twenties and so on. It was very contagious, the wonderful competence that Americans had in the 60s. I mean it was a difficult decade I was there when RFK was shot I was there when Martin Luther King was killed. It was a difficult decade, but on the other hand, beneath that surface of crisis and tragedy. There was a huge self belief and a huge confidence in the future. In America, I don't know whether you'll agree pick it up in the conversation we'll have in a moment or two but I have a feeling that leaders don't quite feel as on top of things, or don't quite feel that they have the right to be experimental to try things out to make mistakes to in a sense bump into success to lead a rather more serendipitous life acting on the world to discover what needs to be thought rather than thinking about things to do in order to decide what to do. It's very the American principle of pragmatism do in order to think more clearly rather than think in order to act more rationally. I think that side of things may may be weakening. Yes, it's certainly a challenge on with our current leaders and as you say without going deep into politics now there appears to be a large degree of mistrust of the people who should, as you say be leading us. And in those departments we aren't seeing very creative leadership but I don't think we're going to necessarily put the world to rights in that department. No we're not. So, what I'd like to do is Chris, our eminent founder who we would all work for for free has put a couple of questions in the chat so I would really like him to join us and excuse me put a couple of his questions to you so if you would like to join us there Chris, you're very welcome. So Jules, what an honor, can you hear me okay? Yes, I'm here with Jake as well I don't know whether you can see us. Hello Jake. Very, very well. Yeah, we were just chatting while you're talking about some of the things you were talking about one of the things we were wondering is he you mentioned Rory and David as his two heroes, who are some of your other heroes, who do we need to read up on and and look out for. Andrew Ehrenberg was my doctoral supervisor it was research on consumer choice processes brand choice processes. Andrew of course in in the name of Aaron Burgers the Bass Ehrenberg Institute where where of course Baron sharp works and has revolutionized marketing. He came from Andrew's extraordinary work in the 50s and 60s looking at a GB, a consumer panel data, and discovering, in a sense the errors of marketing theory, as it had been taught to me at the Wharton School, I mean, Andrew, pretty much single handedly showed that market segmentation and brand positioning and consumer loyalty, our figments of the imagination of the academic imagination and of course Baron sharp has picked that up along with others like lesbians and so on and many of the other key behavioral artists working in, in, in marketing and behavior generally. Andrew was remarkable he was a scholar, quiet, modest, but deeply human and hugely helpful. And I suppose he's the, the most gifted intellectual ever worked with. So yes he's a hero of mine as well. I wonder who your heroes are Chris. I mean, I think you're right. I definitely adore Rory and I love his. I think it's his curiosity which I love the most in that he just seems to know a little about a lot. Which I think is always very helpful. And then he gets his, where does he get his ideas he writes this wonderful fortnightly column in the spectator many of you probably will read it. And it ranges over a huge spectrum of human behavior, and spots, something genuinely interesting and brings a really novel insight to bear. How does Rory because that would be lovely to have wouldn't it. Yeah, I think there's a couple of ways that that I know that he does it. Because I've seen him when I was working with him but what one of the ways was he, he does rely a lot on the people that surround him. I think he's probably enough to be, you know, probably one of the, you know, 10 people working and advertising who's over 40 surrounded by a lot of 28 year olds. You know, curious people who are learning about all sorts of stuff. So, and he's he's always, you know, you, you and I and probably most other people on this call will know him from doing talks and you almost can't stop him from talking. But when you see him just day to day at work. He's mostly listening. He sits down and he just he would listen to Dan Bennett and listen to the other team that are in the Babel Science team a lot. So he does spend a huge amount of time doing that and they'll mention academic papers and I'll see him writing, writing down notes and then he'll go off and read up on them. And then I think it's the same with with people like you because I know that you chat with them every now and then he he's very good at keeping in touch with other people from quite disparate fields. And then the same thing I've seen him and heard him in these conversations he'll have lunch at Ogilby and with, you know, yourself or other other friends of his and then again he'll go away and start reading up on stuff and I think, because he's got this diverse mix of friends and is a very good listener and is naturally very curious and has access to the Internet. He then does a lot of reading up and draws these these connections which most of us wouldn't see I mean he's also a very creative imaginative person so. The connectedness in the Maverick book we call it resourcefulness that is trying to find a network that's, you know, weekly linked to rely just on those you're working with, and your close friends try and find different groups, seeing the world differently and having one link to such a group can be hugely educative we're more educated I think by our friends than we ever are by our teachers and therefore as the gift saying goes choose your friends carefully but choose your friends as you say Chris from a wonderfully diverse network because the art of living I think is to see the world through others eyes and to have that skill of mentalization. It's partly empathy but it's also imagining what the world might be like starting from a different place or coming from a different place. My other hero is the soppy emotional woman is probably my dad but he's a crazy eccentric photographer and I think I don't know I mean Jake knew him a bit as well he's always been very positive and sort of, you know, the cut wasn't half full it was overflowing. He'd be inventing a new cut. And a new liquid to fill it. Yeah exactly. Yeah he's definitely an expression a radiator not a drain. Yep. I mean he gives out so much more than he takes I think that's another important quality of the people like Rory is, you know they give so much more than they take. Yeah I don't know the kindness is the right word. Yes I, it's quite important to know how we're experienced by others Peter Drucker, I suppose the greatest thinker of on management almost invented the modern theory of management he used to say that the, the most important conversation at work is to ask others. How do I need to change if I'm to help you bring the best out in yourselves. Of course it's difficult question to ask and it's a very difficult question to answer so it needs to be asked carefully and probably over, you know, a couple of weeks. And of course when you've got the answers you now have the right to say look if you want me to change in this way to bring the best out in you. And I need you to change in the following ways to enable me to be to change in the way you would like me to change and I think those conversations those reciprocal conversations are very powerful I don't know whether. As a father, he had those kinds of conversations with you Chris but I suspect he was a very good inquisitive questioner of you as a kid, and not just, you know, an instructor. You brought out your own curiosity, I suspect. 100%. Yeah, you're right. I didn't think about that. But yeah, good observation. I saw there was a question from Marissa. Yes, I'm just going to bring in Marissa. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chris and Jake. I'll just take you out of the spotlight and we'll bring in Marissa. We can. And joining us today you had a lovely question in the chat for Jules if you'd like to go ahead. Yeah, this is lovely to hear. Thank you. And I just I'm struck by you've obviously moved around and experienced life around the world to whatever degree. And I was just wondering how essentially you think it is to have those perspectives because I think, you know, obviously America and those sort of 60s or early 70s is obviously I could imagine that was very informative and then France rather has a very different ethos and way of thinking and life. I thought, you know, how much do you think it's crucial to get those various perspectives. Thank you for the question. Thank you, Marissa. I like the phrase new latitudes new attitudes. I think we learn best when we're at the edge of our experience. Perhaps when we're surprised. My teaching career certainly since the year 2000 has been to take quite small groups to foreign cities and go into what might be called the darker side of the city. We have conversations, care centers, places where people are suffering or where people see the world through different dyes perhaps less fortunate that we are, and in very small groups, possibly one on one have conversations groups no bigger than three or four in a city like, I don't know, Hyde Rabad Cape Town or the informal community next to Kailisha I think it's called isn't it the informal community in Cape Town, or all the the darker side of Boston and so on. I'm laughing because I used to work in the 19th and Paris and that sort of feels like that to me. Yes, I'm in that. I'm in the ninth at the moment I'm going to. I'm going to Bob Dylan concert tonight in Paris you can see behind me is these little hotel room, a small hotel. I'm laughing because I said to Jules, do you think we'll be able to work into the conversation that you're going to see Bob Dylan tonight so very artfully brought that in should be mentioned at all times. My favorite Dylan song is every grain of sand. Do any of you know that song so it's the song he sang I guess in his forties, which is more than 40 years ago of course, which records if you like his his conversion to Christianity a moment of dwelling on the extraordinary mystery of the world and so on that the world is contained in a grain of sand. He's promised to sing that tonight. And that's one of the reasons I'm here to go to that concert with 10 mates but Marissa your question is about perspectives. And I think that I think I brought my children up to have a multi linguistic education so the kids went through the French system, as well as the schools and so on. And I think we know that creativity is hugely aided when we are multilingual, or when we have experiences of different cultures, and we see everything in relative terms. Because we, we have a way of looking at the culture into which we were born, through the eyes of others who were born in different cultures, and it's the connection between this connectedness as both you and Chris have called it, as well as the creativity and curiosity that goes alongside it's like taking holidays, go to places that are fresh, go to places, go, what was the lovely phrase take the the road less traveled, the famous poem, the road less traveled is a good road to take, isn't it. Thank you. Thank you so much Marissa and thank you for joining us and as you say, Jules it is so important to have a different perspective in order to see. But it's not easy is it my dad was just telling me a story when he worked on one of the major, excuse me, razor blade manufacturing accounts, and his image of when men had a shave was getting up in the morning you shave and you put on your suit. And what he then discovered was actually that 50% of the male population at this time actually shaved in the evening, because of course not everyone goes to work in a suit, a large proportion to other types of jobs. So when they come home in the evening to get ready to go out that they shave and I think it really made me think about how hard it is to get away from our biased view of the world. Yes I was in Houston with a medical equipment manufacturer recently I think they made heart valves, and a lot of the conversation earlier in the week was about how they needed to change the design of the heart valve to make it more successful to make it more popular with surgeons. So at the end of the week we visited the operating theater in a famous Houston hospital and talked to the operating team, including the nurses. And we discovered that it's not the surgeon that chooses the make of heart valve. It's one of the senior nurses. And in talking to the nurses we found that she loved the box it came in because the box was perfect for her. And it was perfect for putting the yarn in in an ordered fashion so she had all these boxes, all labeled by colors of different kinds of yarn, and that was the basis upon which this famous Houston hospital bought their heart valve and nobody else's. And of course, the world is made up and he's lovely surprises how do we notice this stuff. Yes, that's just an amazing story I mean, before everyone joined us on this call we were talking about one particular part of the course where you talk about creating your vision, creating the mission, your values and now I'm reflecting on that and thinking. Can we create these clear visions, when as you say we're not, we're not seeing 90% of the picture how, how possibly our users our customers whatever word you want to use, you know, how they see the world. Yes. I think part of it comes from knowing whom we are. Bronnie where who is a palliative nurse you wrote a famous book many of you will know it, the regrets of the dying she listened in on many family conversations. She listened to the end of the life of a father or a mother or a brother or what have you. And she listened for those things that, towards the end of our lives you most regret. And of course the famous one is I wish I hadn't worked so hard. But the one she found accounted for more than any other regret was I wished I'd lived a life of my own choosing. The mother's chose for me. And I think when we give ourselves permission to be ourselves, we're more likely to notice those curious things outside of ourselves when we're comfortable within. There's a kind of what is it a uniformity between the person we are and the person we'd like to be. The external world is seen more clearly perhaps so we notice surprise we're more engaged with the external world because the internal world is relatively well ordered in fact I think that's probably a Freudian insight as well. I think that's important. I think that is important maybe by being more yourself and true to yourself as people like to say these days you then free yourself up to ask the questions I'm actually just thinking now the way that Rory and his recent exploration of transport seemed in reflection to be just such simple questions you know why is it that we can't look for comfort on the train. Why is it that the most basic request of just wanting to know more about the reason why we've stopped as opposed to the engineer or the economist approach which is just act as many on get them there as fast as possible he does you we don't need necessarily to be getting there so quickly, we'd rather be in comfort and aware of what's going on and maybe our thinking frame becomes more open when we are more consciously ourselves and see things in a more real way. Our agenda should be the questions to which we want answers. And if we were to have answers would contribute hugely not only to our own happiness but to the happiness of others. I think that the corporate plan should not be made up of numbers objectives targets KPIs. I think it should simply be a statement of the questions to which we want answers because experimentation always begins with the question to which we have to which the hypothesis or the hypotheses are the potential answers managers are very good at delivering on an objective or answering a question. It's very important we start so to speak with the right question. If we start with the wrong question, we will answer the wrong question and performance will suffer. And I think many companies are getting to a brilliant answer to the wrong question. It's better to have a crappy answer to the right question than a brilliant answer to the wrong question. And that's why everything needs to begin I think with what is the issue at hand. I mean it's true I think of Britain at the moment I think post Brexit Britain post pandemic Britain. What are the two or three questions to which we want to find answers. I'm not sure we have that agenda even. philosophical as we knew it would do with somebody as much a deep thinker as yourself. Jules, I've just seen another question has popped up that I think we would like to bring in. If you don't mind, Nick, would you like to join us to put your question to Jules. I'm just asking a question about the darker side of leadership. I'll just bring you in. Hello, Nick, you're very welcome. Thank you for joining us. Hello, guys. Hey, Chris. Hey guys. Hi, Jules. You mentioned early on that you take your students off to the darker sides of the cities and to kind of take a look at the leadership and I'm just thinking now. You mentioned Bob the Bob Bob Dylan because he talks a lot about good and evil and, you know, the whole economy of his writing but it's actually pretty interesting. Like, would you find that leadership is a bit different in the darker side. Well, you know, whatever that is versus, because you talk about the egalitarian sort of thing of like, you know, in a work space should should be like this but would, because do you find that leadership is different in, you know, in a whole show and is that, is there some commonality between that darker side and that lighter side for lack of a better term to. Yes, gosh, yes. I think it's more likely to be more human. I think where where we're dealing with the less fortunate. And those who choose to care for the less fortunate. It may be a teacher in an underprivileged school you notice immediately the difference. It's a genuinely, it's a genuine attention to the other person, the child. And it's, it feels to me more authentic, braver, quite courageous. It's more outgoing. It's less egoistical. There's no showing off. And that that could be profoundly moving. I think the, the spirit of these discovery experiences these creative encounters is not simply to learn from others or treat for example a caregiver as an exemplar of leadership, but it promotes much more honest conversation over a nice dinner that evening possibly with a very nice wine amongst, if you like the managers I'm with they, you can't after an experience like that. Talk, you know, bullshit. It has to be human and real it's about life is the kind of conversation you might have with your children after a week like this where you take back to your kids something that meant something to you emotionally when you look back on an experience. We remember what we felt much more popular than what we thought. And I think education is about promoting those, those feelings as much as this is a Rory point of view as well of course, as well as simply an intellectual breakthrough it's something about educating the heart as well as the mind. And when the heart is being educated, we open up to one another, and we say the things that need to be said. I was with Dan on yesterday at in Seattle and from down below and Dan on is going through a terrible patch at the moment. And I was hugely encouraged by the wonderfully candid conversations they were having with one another. Partly because they'd been on farms the day before with with farmers producing the milk for the yogurt and so on. It made it more real they were in contact with those who, you know, live difficult lives supporting a firm like done on I think that's the difference I love your question. You're asking questions to which it's not easy to give an answer. But one also the follow up one is basically would you have would you say that if there's good leadership in one sort of whole area or sector, would that have a knock on effect to another area and sector. And so, if a lot of us change our leadership sort of styles and we talk about like if, because if only corporates were a bit like, like a bird sock, you know, the company, you know, if all companies were like that, and where would that have an effect on other companies in different spaces as darker I think so yes. I think it's nice to have a mix of styles. I think it's nice to import styles that were, you know, bred in one culture and brought into a new culture I think all of us like to be led by slightly eccentric leaders by my mavericks in a way. I think it's well differently, and who lead through conversation and different perspectives. And I think in a setting where it's a bit more. It's a bit less predictable. We discover fresh sides of ourselves in a way it's an opportunity to explore something in ourselves that hasn't yet found expression because, you know, the so called 3D model of a personal identity. Destiny drama and deliberation destinies is our genes in some sense the person we were meant to be drama of the events, the major events in our life that shake us up and force us to adapt and so on. And deliberation of course is the choices we make is to the kind of person we should become and I think the way you describe the crossover is is a kind of set of events, which stimulate our deliberation. I don't know if you see what I mean. Thank you so much, Nick. Really great question. Thank you so much for joining us and we're coming towards the end of this speaker event jewels and whilst we're talking about the styles of leadership. If you recall the story you told actually in the course, a way in which it was, I suppose to facilitate stuff to be more honest at what they thought things were successful you told a story about I think it was a bank that created an internal stock market and the employees bought and sold initiatives. Do you remember that story view. Yes, I think it was Lloyd's bang they. They, I suppose had like many large corporations more than 100 separate initiatives that they were kicking off at various levels in the, in the company. And the board had a very clear view as to the value that they attached the prices if you like the stock prices they were putting on these different initiatives. And the suggestion was that they should have an internal stock market I think they gave everyone paper money so they gave everyone all employees 10,000 pounds paper money to invest in those initiatives that they believe to be underpriced by the board and otherwise they do better than the board thought they would do, and and not an avoid investing so to speak in those initiatives that thought were overpriced so you produced if you like some crowd wisdom in the way that initiatives are priced by all employees rather than just the board. And of course the prices of the initiatives change radically as a result of this internal stock market. And of course, then the question arises, who has the better insights as to which of these initiatives are going to create value for Lloyd's bank than the others is it the board of eight, or is it the entire employee population of 100,000 and of course, most theory I'm sure Rory would say the hundred thousand are more likely to be pricing those initiatives correctly. They are a very interesting way of, in a sense distributing influence within a firm the other much more recent internal market that I saw was IBM. It's called IBM funded it's for part of IBM I'm not sure which part, but they've given everybody $20,000 to invest in their in their own initiative with no permission required they can invest that 20,000, where they can create the greatest impact on IBM's bottom line on IBM's future, but you can only invest it if two others within IBM with their own 20,000 prefer your idea to their idea and link their 20,000 to make 60,000. And then you can go with it. You can go with Rory with 60,000, all with one initiative one thought. I think that's a very, very powerful model that will produce much greater wealth, I think, than some top down initiative from an aging board who have become fearful. That's just a fantastic story and thanks for sharing earlier on and of course, you know the theme that seems to be coming through all of this is that you're the power of these experimental ideas absolutely love them as I say we are coming towards the end of the session. Just to ask you, Jules, is there anything that you would like to leave everyone who joined us today, a parting message for everyone who took the time to join us this Thursday after one parting message I wish you were with me this evening you go to a Bob Dylan console and have a lovely fridge but there will be opportunities I'm sure to beat up. No, give yourself permission. Later in the evening, no more than 20 minutes, just to reflect on everything we've been talking about and form perhaps two or three ideas of your own. It's often in those silent moments isn't it. We come up with a hypothesis or two of our own or experiment you'd love to work on in your own workplace. We are we live such busy lives that we the ability to step back slow down. I think it was Julie virtual who said most of us would do our jobs better if we did them less. So that notion of a quieter life a more reflective life, but when we're acting we're acting on, so to speak, a considered or a highly imaginative thought that's come into our mind so thank you all so much for for spending this all together. I appreciate it hugely and I hope we have an opportunity before too long to meet up again thank you all. Thank you. Thank you so much Jules thank you for joining us. It's just been a joy, learning from you hearing you speak thank you to everyone who joined us today. The gang from 42 courses and of course all of our superb subscribers, you'll find Jules in the creative leadership course and I hope that you will join us again for another event. Thank you very much everybody and goodbye. Bye bye.