 Good morning and welcome to this week's edition of Encompass Live. I'm your host Krista Porter here at the Nebraska Library Commission. Encompass Live is the Commission's weekly online event. We are a webinar and don't mind if you call us that. Some people have issues with that term. We are here live online every Wednesday morning at 10 a.m. Central time. If you're unable to join us on Wednesdays, that's fine. We do record the show and post it to our website afterwards in the archive and I'll show you at the end of today's show where you can find all of our archives. We post a recording of the show. It goes up to our Nebraska Library Commission's YouTube account. If there's a presentation as there isn't here, we share that on our slide share account. And if there's any interesting links there sometimes within the presentation as I know they are today, but sometimes we'll post them as well for you. So everything you need to be there in the recording afterwards. Both our live show and our recordings are free and open to anyone to watch. So please do share with your colleagues, friends, neighbors, family, anybody who you think might be interested in any of our topics that we have on the show. They are welcome to join us live or hop to our website and check out our recordings. We do have our archives going back to the very beginning of the show, which was in January of 2009. So you will find some out-of-date information in there. We'll call it historical. We are librarians, so we archive and save everything. So do keep that in mind if you are looking at archives, looking at some old shows. They're all dated, so you can't miss the fact that something happened in 2008, 9, 10, 11, 12, whenever. But we would keep everything out there just as historical. The focus of our show, the only real criteria for the show, is that it's something library related. We do a mixture of things here. We do book reviews, interviews, mini training sessions, demos of services and products. The only limit on that is that it's something library related to any type of library. It's public, academic, school, special, museums. We're pretty broad, just that it's focused on libraries. Some of our topics, you may look at a title and say, library is really? No, really. I always make sure everything comes around to libraries in the end, no matter what our topic is. So trust me on that, if you're not sure. We do have a Nebraska Library Commission staff that do presentations here for things that are specific to what we're doing here at the Library Commission program services that we offer. But we also bring guest speakers. And this morning we have a guest speaker. Hello. Yeah. Well, Scott Childers is the director of our Southeast Library System, which is a, here in Nebraska for those of you not aware, we have four regional library systems, just geographically. And they do consulting and training for libraries in their area. And they are funded by, through the Library Commission. So he's a guest speaker because his office is on the other side of Lincoln, but he's also connected to the Commission so you know, there we go. Yeah. And he's a person who's here about fair use, fair use copyright, things that make some people cringe, me included. But hopefully we'll get you up to speed on what it is and how you can and or can't use it in your library. So I'll just have to take it away. Okay. Thanks. One thing I do want to stress is in this type of presentation, in the way I present it, your questions are important. So definitely use that Q&A box that Chris, Chris said earlier, and we'll try to get to them as we go along. Yeah, type it anytime you want to ask. Yeah. Yeah, because a lot of our stuff tends to build on previous. And if you don't get some of the earlier stuff, you might get a lost in the last. So please, you know, if you got a question, put it in there. If I notice something that I will get to, we'll let you know. We'll try not to leave you hanging. Yeah, if you need something clarified, as it's talking about it, say something then. Yeah. And so we're going to talk about fair use. So to do that, we'll have to talk about copyright. And some of you may have already had some some experience with copyright and fair use trainings. But I'm going to start kind of from the basics. So we're all on the same page because that is important to understand how fair use works and how some of the other things work is to understand how copyright is set up. I do want to put out a couple of disclaimers. One, this is kind of time-sensitive because copyright laws could change in the future. So if you're watching this 10 years from now, yeah. Hopefully things are different. Find a different podcast. And two, I am not a lawyer. None of today should be construed as official legal advice. This is guidelines on how this has worked in the past, observations. But it's not, I wouldn't go to a court case just from saying I attended a one-hour webinar. And they said it was okay. Yeah. Can you tell I have folks in the legal profession in my family? They taught you well. Yeah. Okay. So we're going to start with what is copyright? So this is US law. This is something that's been put in place that when people who have ideas could earn a living off of those ideas. Say recently we have patents. Different countries have different copyright law. So if you're an international attendee, your experience may vary. I don't think we have anyone signed up today outside of the national. But it is there. So when people could earn a living off of ideas, creatively, art, writing, music, those types of things. Copyright allows people to or gives people more protection so they can earn a living doing art and humanity. So it is important. A lot of times people think of copyright as big business and it has turned out that way, but initially it is to protect creative endeavors. OK, and it's about ideas. So let's talk about the rights. Often people think copyright is one big monolithic thing. I have copyright. It's not. It's a collection of things that you could do with your idea. One is reproduced. So let's say I write a story and I have copyright. Therefore, I could make copies of that story freely. And, you know, it is my right to do so. I could adapt. I could take that story and turn it into a comic strip or a musical or interpretive dance, whatever. You know, I have that right as a copyright holder to adapt it into a different type of format. I could perform it. I could take that story and do a reading. I could take that musical and sing the song. I have that right with this idea, this expression to do so. I could distribute. I could take those copies and I could hand them out. I could also sell those copies. So I could go to Chris and say, here is my short story. Or I could say here, I'll sell this to you for 50 cents. Now, whether she'll buy it for 50 cents, I don't know. But it's my right to do so. And now here's another important thing. I have the right to license it to someone else. So, Chris could come to me and say, hey, I love your story. I'd like to turn it into a web comic. I could say, yes, we'll work this out and I will give you the right to my original story to adapt it to somewhere else. So I could lend one of those rights, whether for free or for pay. Right, we might work out some sort of a profit sharing deal. Yeah, exactly. It could be one fact, it could be a continuous profit sharing. It could be for a short term. It could be you could do this, but you don't get to host it anywhere else. But this website and we earn tow, we earn equal share of the advertising. That could be a deal we worked out. So publishing, if I write a book and I'm going to sell that book to a publisher, I'm selling the rights and they are doing that. And oftentimes in those deals, you are currently transferring your rights to that publishing house. I no longer have those rights because I have sold them all. Some authors are doing things differently now. Hugh Cowley, I think is the guy, he did eBooks, self-published, they made it big. Publishing house that we'd like to do a print version. So he said, yeah, you could do a print version, but I still get all the eBook rights. You can't do an eBook. I'll give you the rights to do a publishing version. So you can pick and choose and do these things. This allows us things like creative comments. Because you could give, I don't know, previously probably talked about creative comments in a previous episode somewhere. Oh, in the past we have had discussions. And they are times. We don't think about it, yeah. But there are people who on the copyright can say, I really let you do that. Do this. I've really let you make copies. I really let you perform it. But you can't pay, you can't force people to pay for it, right? So it is something that is negotiated. Question so far on this concept. So copyright is not one big monolithic block. Yeah, it has different levels and different things you have to think about when you're, when you are creating something and want to copyright it, these are the things you have to decide. Yeah. And it says creative comments. We have no sessions on that before an encompass live. So check our archives. It's nice that it does guide you very nicely, I think, through these different things you might want to think about because there are different types of creative comments licenses you can choose and they explain these kinds of things to you in there as well, which is nice. Yeah, so this type of structure also lets us have some fair use and some classroom exceptions. So it's something to think about that because we have these broken down and made it really complex, it gives us freedom to do other things. So let's talk about who gets the copyright. Again, in current US law, it is the creator. Automatically, unless it's being done for work is higher. We'll talk about that a little bit. And it is issued automatically once it's put into a fixed form. And registering is optional now. You do not have to send a copy to a copyright office at DC to have copyright. So a blog post, you're writing your personal blog and you're out of time. Big dope. You've copyrighted that post. You've composed a song, recorded it. You will copyright to that original composition and that original performance. Right. You do not have to register it. Like make it official in some way. Now it helps if there's ever a court case because then you have all of this. I don't want to say unquestionable documentation, but really sturdy documentation. And if you do it early on, I fixed it in this form. I wrote the book, I published the piece, I recorded the music, I sent it off within the first few months. Then it's really, it gives you that time stamp. I was going to say documents when you actually did it. If anyone else decides to question if you did or I think that they made me create it the way I go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I was just noticing, I assume we're going to go into defining what fixed form is because it isn't quotes. Yeah, well, what is meant by that comes from the statute itself, the fixed form. But so blog posts, the word document, the rented word, the recording of the song, those type of things, the script for a play. You know, once it's out of the head, if it's still up here, it's not copyright. You have to show, be able to hand someone something and say, this is my work. I do also want to talk about there have been some people who suggest a poor man's copyright, and then air quotes, which you take your work, you put it in the envelope and mail it to yourself. And then you use the postmark as the copyright date. Now, that really does not have much weight in a courtroom, especially since we've already got to this fixed form. And if you could show it's distributed in any other manner, this poor man's copyright registration doesn't matter. It's kind of unnecessary. And really registering for a copyright is not that expensive compared to what a court case might be if you want to fight. So really, you're not, you're not gaining any protections by doing that method. And I've actually seen that in writing books. They recommend it in the envelope and mail it to yourself. It puts a stamp on something, but really it's no additional protection. All right. So that's copyright in a nutshell. Before we move into educational use, and I know we've got educators on the line here. They have both school and university. Excellent. So this is going to be geared mainly for you, the public librarians. Some of this will apply. Some of it will not. But keep that in, hang on, we'll get to more general stuff later. Again, if you have a question, please let us know. But educational use, there is something actually in copyright law for educational use. It's written in there. It's not fair use. It's something specifically. And what this does, it gives you the ability to use copyright material in the classroom setting. However much of it you want for, you know, so you can use a whole movie without paying for licenses or anything like that. If you follow these specific rules, and again, this is classroom use exception to qualify. You must one be in a classroom and the codes are or similar place to mode to instruction. So the classroom, that's no question. The school library, school media center, that might be questionable depending if you normally have a class in that room or not. The school gymnasium, probably harder to defend. I've seen some people ask, well, it's in a school. So that's a place devoted to instruction. The entire building. The entire building. Places, right. I really don't have a strong answer for that type of defense. I don't know if. Because I was like, what if you are taking, I mean, I would say field trip, but you've taken them outside of the school somewhere else to teach for some reason. Like gone off site to like, the high school went to the university because there was something there that they wanted to use as well. And then they're using it in that place or, well, okay, that's a classroom as well. Yeah, and so those are those type of, and those things, that gets pretty nuanced. It does, it's not black or white in that case. But so if you're thinking of the traditional classroom setting that you're in, that the students are in, that is pretty cut dry, but everything else starts veering off into interpretations. Right. How much does, what does it mean to be devoted to instruction? Yeah. How much time does it need to be, then they, of course, would not define that, I assume. No, that is, that is the full definition part of me. Excuse me. The second thing, the instructor has to be there for a person engaged in face to face teaching activities. So you can't just show the movie and say, okay, class dismissed. There has to be something going on, whether you're talking about, hey, this movie took place in the 1950s, was filmed in the 1970s. What does that say to us now in 2017? This music was the first of its kind, but now it sounds kind of the same of everything else now. Well, let's talk about how it was revolutionary at that time. This, this TV show, you know, was highly relevant in the 80s. Now, most of their references are lost on us. What can we, what can we learn from this? So you can do the culture, the history, the artistic merits, you know, an art class is watching a video of Bob Ross to decide, is this or is this not worth learning? You know, but you're doing something with that copyrighted material. Something that has to do with the curriculum. Yes. So it can't just be, I'm the student teacher or I'm the substitute teacher for the day. And this is just a keeping the students entertained for this session, because I'm not here, but I don't, I could actually teach anything. Exactly. Entertainment purposes that is not allowed. Right. It's not a babysitter. Yes, babysitting that. There has to be some reason you're showing this. So third, you're using a legally acquired copy of the word to question. It does not say it has to be that the school legally acquired it. It could, from what my interpretation is, it could be from the teacher's personal collection. But here's the kicker. It's a physical media. Streaming digital does not count in this exception, as far as I can see. This was written well before. This thing and some of this copyright class, this needs to be updated. There's, there's so many, there's some of the second bullet there, being there in person, engaged in face-to-face teaching. There's so much teaching now that is done remotely. We'll talk about remote. And through things like Moodle or Blackboard, or your face-to-face, but online face-to-face. Like we are right now, we have a camera. If you did, you could all, you were participating in a meeting like this. You have a camera. We're not in the same room, but it is real time and we are face-to-face. Yeah. And we'll talk about distance learning in a little bit. And then, and then you have to be in a non-profit educational institution. So if you're at a for-profit educational institution, this classroom exception is not for you. Okay. So those are your four bullet points in law that allows a classroom to use copyrighted material. Now, here's, here's the thing. There are companies out there that are trying to scare people, scare educators and say, well, you need to have a license to show them these movies. But if you scroll down in the website, in the fine print, it says, for recreational purposes, educational purposes are covered by classroom. So, but they're attached, not even hint that this exception exists. It's written very cleverly to make you frightened. And to make you pay some sort of feed to them. Even though you don't need that in a classroom setting. Right. So we talked about distance learning, Teach Act of 2002 added that, expanded those same exceptions only to a distance learning. The access has to be limited to just the students in the class. So you can't just have it on the website anywhere. A place you have to log into. Exactly. The password protected that type of thing and only for the likelihood of class. So the students can't come back after the class to watch that video, listen to that music clip, hear that performance, see that, whatever. And another thing about this is copyrighted information must be provided in this case. And this is the pay, don't be a pirate type of copyright thing. You have to have some statements about this is copyrighted material. You can't copy it. You can't share it. Right. You can't share your password. You can't download this and then use it for your own recreational use. Yes. No, this movie that we are studying in class. And you can't download it. You have to view it in that course management system or whatever. So they can't even have the ability to do that, which most is course management. That's how they work. You log into then and that's how you get access to everything. So that's classroom use exception. And these are written into law. You have these things. So again, they're already out there covering you for what you need to do in these situations. Yeah, again, there are companies out there that will be that are trying to push this need for licenses for classroom use. But if you read the mind print, it says for the recreational work or that type of thing. If it's for the classroom in those educational things and you have activities with that material, then you're good. You don't even have to worry about fair use because you have law. Okay. All right. That's any other questions? Any questions about classroom use? I do have something on recording programs. I don't think there's too many to do recording now because they're so much available like on the network's own websites and stuff. Right. Yeah. There are not laws on this. These are best practices based off of court law and discussions with intellectual property folks back in the day. So you could report a broadcast to show with your classroom, but it has to be something that's publicly broadcast. So pay channels can't be tamed and brought in according to these guidelines. And this is strictly the recording bit. If you happen to be in a school that has cable television and there's a TV broadcast happening at the time that you need it to happen, you should be good. This is simply the recording bit. So this is recording it yourself for you to then use? Yes. So now with a lot of, I think, every people company they have on demand, a lot of their programs, that would be included now. And if the school has cable, anything that's in the live shows and on demand as part of the package should be able to be used to. And that's one of those braids. That's why I knew they still haven't. Yeah, that's one of those braids. Yeah, where I haven't I haven't seen any real precedents yet. Now this there are lots of multiple copyright lawsuits every hour. So it's quite possible. I missed some precedent. If any of you have happened to come across one, I'd love to hear about it. But I do know there are some school libraries that still have a massive collection of recorded things from PBS, you know, back in the 80s. According to the best guidelines, they suggest after 45 days that tapes destroyed and it would only be kept to decide if you're going to purchase a commercial recording of it. Now again, these are guidelines. They're not the law. There's no copyright police. No, period. Let alone one that's going to come to the classroom and raid your shelves. However, if you're looking for an excuse to clean those out, there's a good way to do this in schools where there's a faculty member says I might possibly need those, even though there's dust in it, you can say no, best practice since 45 days. And this is recorded in 1985, so we're going to get rid of it. Yeah. Besides the fact that it was recorded in 1985, you probably want something newer, unless you're doing something historical. Yeah, so that's recording. Okay, again, that classroom exception gets in copyright statute. And so you educators who are listening, you've got that in the back pocket already. Fair use gives us some other things that we can consider. This is for republic librarians. You can you can wake up now. So we're going to talk about fair use. And this is, I'll be honest, I talk about fair use a little differently than some some other people, because some people treat fair use as a checklist. One, two, three, four, I'm good. Fair use is not that technically. Fair use is a doctrine that a that promotes free expression of using parts of copyright material without permission, without pay, but is a courtroom defense. It is not a preemptive checklist. That is something to think about. You could do everything right and follow those four things and still get hit with a copyright lawsuit. Like I said, there's no copyright cops, right? It's all done through lawsuits. You'll get cease and desist. You may get a letter or you may get in the end, maybe a court case. But there is is there's the person who owns the copyright finds out that you're using something. And that's where the conflict comes from. Right. Where the yeah. Right, but you cannot preemptively say I claim fair use on this. Now that that type of disclaimer has no weight. And I don't know if you've seen this in YouTube, but I see it. People will post something. And yeah, I look for these types of things in YouTube because I'm kind of weird that way. I look for examples of things people are doing wrong. They'll put underneath. They'll upload an episode of the TV show. They'll upload a sporting event. It's a content copyright of ABC or ESPN. This is not my work. I just it's from them. Yeah. It's not my work. I claim no copyright. No, no material. That's just words. It does not. You'll still get hit with the DMCA if the copyright owners notice. And people ask, well, why is this stuff still up there? It's because no one has noticed yet. Oh, yeah. Or it's I mean, and it's going to vary from copyright to copyright to if they think if they care, if it matters to them that you shared this and that's going to vary to some, depending on what it is you're sharing and who it is you're shared it from, some places are like, yeah, it was just some little cookie thing that we did. We don't care. And it's not imposed that I think part of their thinking of a copyright risk is it infringing on me making money off of what I created or ABC is infringing on my company making money. You know, are people watching this and that's where the money is being made rather than they should be coming to me. And hopefully they will look at that and decide that has zero effect on us. So we really don't care. It's not worth our later's time. And that's exactly. So that's why I told some of these things we'll say if there is they've looked at it and said not worth our time to even fight this one because it's just nothing. It has no effect on us. Yeah. And talking about YouTube briefly, they have some automated checkers and it's usually used in the music area, but they will pull down videos. That's why you'll sometimes see clips that have been mirrored or sped up, slow down, boxed. I'll see this. People will take the recording and then put a kind of a frame around it and upload that. So it was like classic television, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, in the size of a postage stamp is the actual TV episode. They're trying to fool those automated copyright checkers. Whether or not that works, that's up to debate. But anyway, all of them are thinking fair use. I could do this because I'm not making money. That's not exactly the fence. Let's talk about it though. There are four, four use, fair use factors that judges will use to decide. And it is the judges who will decide, not you, not the intellectual property of it. What is the purpose and character of your work? Are you doing something new with it? Are you doing something transformative? Are you creating new art, new understanding, new knowledge with this? So did I just take Harry Potter and change the name from Harry Potter to Larry Sotter? You know, that, okay, that's even partly plagiarism too, but it didn't change anything of the meaning of the story or anything like that. I just changed the names of a fine interplace. You know, that type of use definitely, no. Now am I doing a critique of say a Harry Potter movie? That's different. I'm creating new knowledge, new understanding, and types of communicating ideas. So that's a different type of use. And the character of my use might be different. I'm pointing out specific parts of the plot or the effects or the makeup or the costume or, hey, look at this. And look at this picture from the Neville England of the building, right? How are they different? How are they more fanciful and more of the other? Right. So that, what are you using this for? Okay. Two is the nature of the work itself. I'm going to use encyclopedias as an example. Encyclopedias are full of facts. You cannot copyright facts. And this, a court case happened that too long ago. Major League Baseball was suing a, I believe it was a fantasy baseball website, maybe it was a magazine, saying that you can't put the box scores of our games in your, in your product. It went to court. And the court said, it's the batter went one for three that night. The pitcher pitched this number of pitches. There was this number in the attendance. All of those are factual information. You, you did not create hopefully they're not made up. You did not create the fact that the score was seven to three. That was not a artistic thing. It was the result of a ball game. So therefore you could not copyright those facts. Now, however, the television broadcast, the radio broadcast, the newspaper articles about that game, those could all be copyrighted. Because then people were commenting and creating most likely their own. That was a great hit by the batter and that's my opinion. And here's how I thought it went. And yeah, let's just say when they do the analysis for, you know, an hour after the game. Exactly. They're taking those facts and they're creating new knowledge or they're creating a new, sometimes they're creating a new story to build up to some other thing that they're, it's like, hey, there's one, there's one picture is our hometown hero. So we're really going to focus on that picture's history. Right. You know, here in Nebraska, Alex Gordon is going to take up a good chunk of the Royals coverage, as opposed to some of the other players because he has a history with this state. You know, I go back home a few years ago, they had a local kid playing on the Nebraska soccer football team. So it was all over the news. If you made something, they emphasized that part too. Right. So the nature of the work. So you could, you know, encyclopedias back to that thing. The facts and encyclopedias, that's fair game, but the write-ups, how they expressed those facts, that is not written. Okay. Third is the amount of substantiality of portion taking. I'm going to ask a question. Some of you who have heard very used things are usually a number thrown around for this. Anyone want to share that number with me? See, I wasn't kind of how how widespread. What do you think the amount is? Go ahead and type into your question section, your go-to webinar. While we're waiting a bit, I've actually missed something on work for hire and copyright. I'll cover that at the end. Okay. So we'll get back to work for hire. Sorry about that. I got so excited about fair use and educational use. Anybody have an idea how much of that you can use in, from a copyrighted work? Nobody has any proof. Do you have a... Oh, geez. So we're talking about what is the maximum amount you can use? Isn't that the question? Yeah, that's the question. That I'll say 20% or less. That's more than I've heard some. I've heard some people say 10. That seems to be what I've heard a lot of, because I just talked about 10. And I'm going to tell you... Or is it a... Go ahead. Depends on how big the work is, how much you're going to take. Okay, that's good though. Yeah, or how much you could take out. Here's the thing, that was a trick question. There is none. It doesn't matter. There have been lawsuits on three seconds of a five minute song, because it was a very identifiable part of that song. And it got used to the sampling bit, and there was a lawsuit and the intellectual property over one. And just recently, last week, there was a suit between two YouTube channel owners. I can't remember how he pronounced H3, H3 was one of them. But the other was some guy saying how he picked up chicks or something. I'm not going to link to either one of them, to tell you the truth. But they went to court against each other. One YouTube channel used three minutes of a five minute video clip from the other. And they were told, yeah, that's very useful. What you did is fair, because it's okay, the intellectual property owner does not have a case against you. And they won that case. So it was because of what they did with that three minutes. Exactly. Not that it was three minutes long. Exactly. What they were using and the purpose played into into the case, the amount of substantiality is not necessarily determined by itself, but it could come into play with some of the others. And I've heard that 10% thumbnail thrown around for years. It's not that it's how is it used? And what parts did you use? Did you give away a big reveal? You know, that could be five seconds of a movie, a whole movie, but you gave it away in your spoiler thing. Maybe someone has a claim that this was the whole part of the movie. The whole point of making this movie was that bit. Yeah. So it's not just the amount it's the bits that you're struggling. And then the last, we talked about earlier, is the fact on the market. Are people going to make money off of this? And here's the thing, it's not just in the same medium that it's printed in or are creating it. So if I have a book and someone creates a web webcomic base of that book, that's still affecting my ability to enter that market to possibly make money in that market. So it doesn't have to be book for book, web, webcomic for webcomic, music for music. It's any market. And so that will also come into play. And these are all four of these things. Go ahead. You can see how they work together because you're talking about giving away something in a movie or a book or something that a copyright holder can get upset at you with that. And say, you shouldn't have done that. You've ruined my entire income from based off of this work. But then we take into account the effect on that works potential market. For example, Darth Vader is Luke's father. Oh, that is wonderful. Right. Stowers, Lucas is going to come after me for that now because it's been so many years. Hopefully everybody knows. Everybody's watching knows. However, if that had been something said and, you know, a week after the movie came out, that could be something potentially that they would say you can't because now people won't go see the movie. But here's the thing, though. They could be balanced off of a critique. And critiques are given more fair use. Right. Right. It's not like I'm spoiling it. They're saying the fact that they did this in the movie and said that he was was good, bad and want. And this is why I think why I should have done it and shouldn't have done it. And my evaluation of the movie as a whole. Yeah. So these four uses play off of each other. And your specific use case may depend more or less on any one of these. So these factors aren't in law. Right. These come from precedents in court cases mainly. And we have so much court case case law over the years that that has to find kind of where the fair use parameters are. Fair use is not in copyright law as far as this. OK, this type of detail comes from these are what people, what judges will look at in the court case. OK, so that's something to keep in mind. Is this something that and I'm going to ask your opinion is not being a lawyer. I am not a lawyer. There we go. Do you think this should be somehow made into law so that people can have a cut and dry like copyright? Or is it better to have it? A new court case may change. What? It's here. There's a couple of things. If we put it into law, then what happens when you tech comes in that disrupts just like every year, right? Yeah. And if it's court case precedent, then that allows those weird things to come in and help define the future. Whereas waiting for an actual legislative action could could have some problems. Also lobbying affects legislation so much more in this day and age than in a court case. Companies can certainly put in amicus briefs. They're probably the ones going to court say, hey, this is our copyrighted material. But lobbying affects laws at this point. And there's a lot of money that we have on preventing some fair uses. I'm not saying all intellectual property owners are agree such and such as not saying that. But probably it's better to keep doing this on a case by case basis to or get more organically create these how things should be done, these guidelines. That's kind of where I'm at at this point. Real life will determine what your is and isn't allowed to be rather than some law that was written 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. So we'll see we'll see how the future goes. But right now, I think this using the precedents from previous court cases has actually come up with for fairly easily understandable things that and again, I don't want to see this as a checklist. However, if you were following these type of guidelines, it makes a suit against you less attractive. Take these into consideration and think about what you would say in response to these four things. If some corporate holder or company did come to you and say, hey, no, he said, well, here's our here's our. Evaluation of what we did our opinion of it and how we met these and thought that we did think about it. We didn't just go willy-nilly and just do this without knowing that there was something we had to think about and plan for work. Yeah, yeah. So well, it's not a checklist. It's certainly things to keep in mind. These are the kind of things courts will be looking at. Yes, the judges. And like I said, the court case, I was just talking about with the two of you two. Yeah, I saw stuff about that. These four factors. You can get the actual maybe I should get you a link to the actual if you want to see the court decision all twenty one pages and vote legal. OK, maybe I'm the only one, but it's out there. Yeah, it's available out there. It's our other court case copyright. OK. Take a quick pause here for for me. Have any questions? Anything that you were wondering about that you have have used and you're wondering about one or more. But if you think it met the rate, these factors and anything you're thinking about using and you want to check and see if you think it would be OK. There's an example of something that you've either done or I think you might do until you can maybe. While we're waiting for that, let me touch on that work for a higher bid. Real briefly. So I thought about who gets copyrighted. It's the creator. However, if it's being done as a part of your job or you didn't pay for it through a contract or some sort of agreement, then that copyright goes with your boss or not your boss, your company, your. Your organization organization. So for example, this episode right here right now, even though Chris and I are making it up on the fly in front of your faces. This is probably commissioned copyright because it's being done on the clock. Sure. That that's you know, that's just a real quick off top. I had thinking of it. I could partner and go back and well, I created the slideshow before I got here. So maybe that part is my bit. And I'm licensing that to the commission. You know, these types of things there are court cases on this that happen a lot too. So. And what we actually have done here, the commission, we have thought about this and. Being that we're kind of an educate and open education institution organization, sort of. I mean, that's kind of a big. We have attempted to where we can use creative commons licensing on things now. For example, and I'm just looking down here in your seat of yourself on our YouTube videos themselves. YouTube actually does let you choose a license for your videos within the YouTube system. And you chose Creative Commons. So. Attribution license re-use allowed, meaning you can use this. You can share it if you want to, but you can not modify it in any way. Use bits of it whatever you want to, but don't make something new out of it. So because this is what we're doing here is for educational purposes. We're not not a for profit organization. Making money off these. There's no sponsors. There's no I didn't pay you for this. Well, so we have that built in there for those specific. So and so that brings up those two points. One, it is the Commission that has that right to say we are not protecting these parts of copyright. These are yours. We open this up to the public debate for this, this and this. So so we talked about back to that very first. It's fastened and it's the Commission for these episodes because it's being done as work for hire. And let me tell you comic books. Oh, my goodness. There's so many lawsuits about who created what what was actually worked for hire. What was not. There are some places that especially creative grounds were in the employment contracts. It says anything you create belongs to the company, right? There be more explicit in those types of things on who owns what. Yeah, before you even start doing it. Even academics, I don't know those of you from from academics. When I was at UNL here in here in Lincoln, Nebraska, the faculty and the administration were having a bit of a go around about who owned what when they did their work on campus, the research and such. And so they were having those discussions. I'm not saying it was bad discussions. It was more like, OK, we need to revisit this. Should the university claim some copyright with the work for hire, but with academic freedom is the university going to waive that. We're going to do a case by case. All of those type of things. OK. So that's copyright. I'm going to move on to something that people often think is copyright. We've got just a little bit of time, but I think it's important. Trademarks. People get this confused with copyright. They are not the same thing. Trademark protects a brand or a logo, basically for marketing and it is there to prevent similar products from using another product's good name to create sales. So for example, let's say I make a really good widget and my widget factory is called a plus widgets. Now, Krista. Is a rival widget company? So could she call her company a plus plus widget factory? Yeah. Probably not. Too close. It's too similar. Right. It would confuse the potential consumer. Right. Customer. Now, let's say Krista was a book store. Could she use a plus bookstore? Yeah, that's where it gets. It's a separate product. So more than likely trademark would be allowed in that case. Yeah. It would most likely be allowed to think it's because it's a totally different business. But there are some companies, big companies who have not agreed with that. We make widgets your bookstore. People are going to think, though, that your bookstores are a widget company. In any logical sense, I don't know. People don't think you could confuse those things. But sometimes they will. Actually, I just saw things related to this that came up Bumblebee. The Bumblebee case has. Just not that. Yeah, you go ahead and talk about that. If a Bumblebee, there's very sense. There's the bug. That's not worth talking about the insect. Bumblebee is a DC Comics character, a girl. Yes. African American, African American, super hero with powers to stay and fly. Yep. It's like the late 60s, early 70s. I think it was 77. OK. Bumblebee is also a transformer, a car. He turns from a robot into depending on what time frame you're in, either a beetle bug and a Volkswagen bug or a the that's a new one. I can't remember what car is. The new movies. And so he's also a Bumblebee. The transformers were in the early 80s, a few years after the DC Comics book character. And just recently Hasbro, who owns Transformers, is suing DC for the using Bumblebee because they think people will be confused. There's the other way around is DC. So it has grown. Hasbro is going after DC. In my brain, I'm like. But yeah. But in some people's minds, they are both fictional characters geared towards a certain age range. Right. And actually, it has to do with selling of the action figures and toys. That's the market that they are concerned about that people will think somebody looking for Bumblebee, the car will accidentally buy Bumblebee, the African American girl action. And it does comes down to those auxiliary things. And that brings up another point. The trademark can be more than just a company. It can be an individual product. So we're talking about here. Hasbro is suing DC Comics over the Bumblebee name. So and these are the things that happen. And it's a trademark thing. Yeah. And you've heard stories about daycares having to take Mickey Mouse characters off the walls. That was I was hoping somebody asked about that. That's been a classic daycares or libraries using Disney characters in your displays and your. It's imagine a mural of all the kids books. That's a trademark issue, not copyright. And here's the thing why they are so. I don't use vicious. It's so impressive. In trademark law, if you don't protect that trademark, when it comes to have to actually file a suit, that's meaningful. If you show a history about protecting it, you will lose that lawsuit. And so you have to show that we've always made sure that this was ours. You are showing that it is still valuable to you. So that's why you don't get the church groups, the daycares getting these cease and desist from using characters because they don't protect their trademarks. If a rival company brought up, you know, Lucky Mouse that looks strangely like Mickey Mouse, if they don't show that they're protecting that trademark, they're going to lose that case. So that's why I'm not saying it's fair, but I'm saying that's why they do it. That's where the law is written for trademarks. You've got to do that. Otherwise in something in the future, you're going to lose it. And so because of that, there is no fair use of sanctions in trademarks, except if we're talking about the product itself. So my Please come down to first floor. So first, please come down to first floor. Thank you for the interruption. So if I'm talking about the Husker football team, I can use the term Husker football. I do not have to revert to, say, the college football athletics team from the largest university in Lincoln, Nebraska, because I'm talking about that team. However, I could not put a Husker logo on a t-shirt and try to sell it without permission without a license. So copyright and trademark are two different things. Copyright has for use. Trademark does not. And trademark is usually more aggressively enforced. OK, we've run long. Well, it was a Camaro. I knew I had to do it. Sorry. Any last. It feels so bad. OK, I think it was my geek card. No, that's not mad. Yes. Well, there's going to be a new spin-off bumblebee movie, too. So I know when they're going to change it again less than I knew. Then there's going to be a new team Titan series that has a bumblebee cartoon. So both sides are a lot of new things coming out. And that's probably why it's coming up now with those parents. Yeah, those franchises. Yeah. So we went over a ton and we were really low on time. And that's OK. We will answer any questions you may have related to this. So go ahead and take in your questions. Was there anything you were wondering about? Why did you set up the decision? Is there something that has happened at your library or your university that you wanted to clarify? Was it OK or not? Or is there something you're thinking about doing that you want to check and see if you think it's something that should be done? Go ahead and use the question section of your Go to Urban Art interface and type it in there so we can answer it. We did have a question that came in beforehand via email. OK. Maybe. Yeah, let's talk about that. That someone had sent it and they weren't able to be here today. So this is a public library here. I'll let Lincoln City Libraries want to know. Do you know what about taking images off the internet? This is something we struggle with for posters and flyers, et cetera. We are on the side of caution, but I'm wondering if, you know, what is. What are the rules about that? What are the what do we need to think about when we're doing that? Well, here's here's where I'm at. If you don't know, assuming it is copyrighted, they can't use it. That that's the safest method. Air on the side of caution. Now there are Google and other places you could search for images and clip art that is free of copyright. Or you can use it for nonprofit types of things. There's some search limiters you can put on for creative commons license. Yes. Images so that you know that people like I said, we did that to our videos. Some people putting images on the internet purposefully do say, yes, mine is available for anyone to use if you want to. And to cover yourself, limit your search that way to begin with. And then you know you're getting the ones that the actual creator has said it's okay. Yeah, so if you focus your search on those, you have a better chance. But yeah, and also like off the top of your head, you know, don't use something off of a site like DeviantArt. Those are artists putting out their work. I mean, sometimes it's pretty obvious that would not be something you would want to use. The only case would be is that artists coming to your library to do a program. They probably have something they will provide to you that is here to promote my session using my work. There's situation matters. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, and that brings up, there's whole questions on fan art, you know, and the artist says it's OK, but it's on the trademark character. I don't know if I would even use that because they didn't get the trademark issue. Oh, yeah. Well, I want us to know. So anyway, anything else about your questions? Yeah, I think just randomly picking images off the Internet is not a good thing to do. You're probably going to hit some copyright type of thing. And there have been some some photographers, some artists who have been those those suits. But there are places you could get, you know, license free royalty free is often a good search in, like I said, using the creative comments types of stuff. And there's more stuff going out there in that area. So and to really, really clarify, because this is still heard to my brain too many times. No, putting it on the Internet does not make it free and available to anyone to use. Some people, some I still do see that even in today. I'm sure there's somewhere on some Facebook group or some website saying you put it on the it's on the Internet. It means I can use it. No, that is not how the world works. That's how many of this works. You just because it's on the Internet doesn't make it like domain. Yeah, that is not a thing. No, no, no. Yeah, unless the creator or copyright holder, maybe not the creator, you know, whoever owns a copyright that said this is public domain or I've given the creative comments for this use, assume that it is owned. Now, there's a big fight. And this is a whole other podcast about abortion works for folks and stuff. Yeah, this is a complicated area. So you have to take things case by case. That question about taking images off the Internet. Assume that it is copywritten. Yeah, purposefully look for things that are not and there is there are ways to do that. So you do have plenty of options where you won't get yourself in trouble. Just make that effort to begin with don't just randomly take anything just became up because it came up in your Google search. The only other time we has is moment. So we're going to get the notes. Yes. We'll get the slides. Yep, you'll get the slides will be afterwards with the recording. And on the screen now you'll see some links to where I got a bunch of my information. The middle one I do want to mention it is an interactive exercise where if you're a classroom person and you have something in mind, it'll ask you questions about what you're going to use this for and tell you if it fits the classroom exception and they think it might be fair use. I tend not to do it in these sessions because it is question by question by question. And it's for one case. You can't use a particular particular thing that you're using for a particular purpose. Yeah. And so again, you'll get the slides and so you'll have these links. And that's where I got a bunch of my information from especially the Stanford site. It's really good on the fair use bit. Explanation. Yeah. And of course, the federal government, of course, has their info out there for you. All right. Anybody have a last minute desperate urgent questions you want to ask? I've got about fair use copyright. Anything. That's your last chance. But of course, his email is on the first page as well of his slides. If you do have anything specific that you did want to ask his opinion on, you have to answer you later. Unless you're actively in a court case, in that case, lawyer up. I'm just saying, I will not act as your lawyer. No. So if you are actively in a case right now, lawyer up and don't make public comments. Maybe that's why. Yeah, that's it. Everyone's under a lawsuit. No. All right. Well, it doesn't look like anything urgent has come in right now. That's fine. Thank you very much. I know this was a session that you've done previously. And I have a look back. Because the person who emailed the question had asked if he had done this before. It actually been a couple of years since he did anything on copyright. I was like 2015, I think. So it's good to get an update on this kind of thing. That was more of a copyright focus. This is going to be very used. As you said, there are so many things that are involved in the sole issue. One hour can't cover everything. But with what we've got out there, if it's in these, you know, if it shows me, you can put them together and maybe we'll do another update on something too. All right. So thank you, Scott, for attending. Thank you everyone for being here. I'm going to pop over here. These are the websites that he had. The Sanford website. The one to use to see if you want to if you what you are using is OK. And then copyright.gov. And this will all be included in the show notes afterwards as well. But I am going to go to our Encompass Live website. So that will wrap it up for today's show. The show is being recorded and will be on our website. Encompass Live, it's linked right after the Library Commission's website. But luckily so far, we have the only thing called this in the world. You can see if you just Google Encompass Live, we come up as the only thing. Maybe you should trademark it. Just kidding. Not my job. I'll talk to somebody else. So and we are here at our main website here for the show, which has our upcoming shows and our archives are right over here. So this is where you will see the archive we posted most likely later this afternoon, as long as YouTube cooperates with me. All of you who attended and registered for the show or received an email directly sent to you. And it will also be announced on our website and our mailing lists. And here last week's show, we had the list of villains recording and the presentation. This one's I'll probably have both of those. And in those three websites that Scott Link mentioned as well listed here, she have quick jumps to those two. Well, we'll be all in here. So that will be Oh no, somebody said thank you all for that. We missed the last 10 minutes to do a fire alarm. Oh my OK. Sorry. There. You're back. Yeah. But we're all recorded here. She wants the rest of it. So that we're up to the day show. I'll put this next week when our topic. We have a couple of things here on the calendar. I'm working on getting some things finalized. I know it looks like we've got nothing coming up, but things are being finalized for later in September and October. Next week's show is the new public library director's guide book. This is a actually good for any public libraries. This is a handbook we've been working on for quite a few years here at the Commission. Basics of if you are a new library director of public libraries and specific public libraries or just into that position from other ones. This is going to be a good guide for you to what do I need to know to be a library director. And there's some things that are Nebraska specific, but it's also like statues and things, but it's general guidelines about it. Yeah, library director as well. And this is actually created with some of our other library system directors. As I said, we have four systems here in Nebraska. Sharon Osanga is a co-director of our Central Plains Library System in the middle of the state. Annika Ramirez is Three Rivers, which is in the northeast corner of the state. They will be with us next week. Ann Holly Duggan, who is our C.E. coordinator here, her predecessor at the Commission started the whole, was well in the beginning of the process. Well, there's been a guide book for a while, but this recent revision, yes. Yeah, most recent revision. So we're going to be on the next week. We'll show you it and demo it and talk about some of the parts in it. So if you are a new public library director or even in a, I was going to say old public library director, been in a job for a while. It could have something I'm used to you as well. Yeah, it's good for anybody. Other shows will be added here. Also to remind everyone on October 11th, this is end of a slide that is broadcast every Wednesday morning, except the week of our state library conference. Library Association and School Librarian Association have an annual joint conference this year. It is October 11th through 13th in California, Nebraska. So that is the one week of the year of the takeoff. So I'm just reminding people that we won't be on, but do make sure in Nebraska library or even travel to Nebraska to attend our conference, our registration is still open until I think September 23rd, but don't wait registered. Yes. So that will be what will be going on that week. We'll all be at conference. So other than that, that wraps up today's show and Compass Live is also one less thing on Facebook. So if you are a big Facebook user, do pop over there and give us a like. We'll post reminders of what shows that are coming up here. I did a random people could log in on the fly for today's show when the recordings are ready. We'll post down here. There we go. The recording from previous session. So do give us a like and you'll get some notifications. Come up in your news feed from there. Thank you everyone for coming. Thank you so much for being here. It's always a pleasure to see you again sometime soon. I'm sure we'll see you at conference. Yes, see you all at the conference in October. So thank you very much and I'll see you next time on Bye bye.