 Welcome to the 21 Convention podcast. I am Steve Maeda and we have an amazing, an amazing episode for you today with 21 Convention alumni speaker and host, Robby Kramer. He's from innerconfidence.com. And we start out this conversation talking about the dating scene, being a dating coach and seeing it evolve and transform into all this awesome stuff, social anxiety, how to get started, but what it turns into is one of the most prolific conversations about sex and seduction that I've had in a long time. And I have a lot of conversations about sex and seduction. Now, what we talk about here are things like threesomes, orgies, sexual dysfunction, how to evolve into your true expression, you know, from this chaotic, abstract language that we may not know called sex. Man, if you wanna know about that, you've got to plug into this podcast. There's some amazing, mind-blowing things that we talk about that you're never gonna hear from anybody else. And if you wanna have a conversation with Robby and I personally, there's only one way to do that. And that's to sign up for the 21 Convention in October, 2014 in Tampa, Florida. The dates for that are October 24th, 25th, and 26th, where Robby and I'll be there, but also 20 other speakers and experts at the top of their field, whether that's dating, fitness, martial arts, philosophy, entrepreneurship, but all these different things so that you, so that you can be the ideal man, it's gonna be there. So sign up at the21convention.com slash event. And if you wanna really build the bridge to us in our communication stream with the podcast, subscribe to us on YouTube, or if you're listening on iTunes or Stitcher, subscribe to us there. And of course, we'd love a written review, some thumbs up, some stars, whatever it is to spread the love so that we could keep bringing you this awesome content and the conversation to be the ideal man. Let's get into this awesome conversation with Robby Kramer. What is happening, guys? We got Robby Kramer here from innerconfidence.com. And you are a super alumni at the 21 Convention. Basically, you've been a host for Austin 2012 and also you were hosting in London 2012, which is really, really cool. You did an international thing and also gave speeches, but your first speech was actually 2011 in Orlando. Man, what's going on? Hey, Steve, great to be on. And yeah, I'm super excited to be back and speaking at the convention 2014 down there in Tampa. Yeah. And yeah, I really enjoyed hosting both events in 2012 and speaking in 2011. And I love the convention. Every opportunity I have to speak, I'll gladly accept and looking forward to it. So you're a guy that is, you've been in the dating, kind of men's improvement industry. And I personally hate that term and I'm asking you so you can explain it so much more, but now you've evolved and transcended into a whole bunch of different stuff, whether it's the overall template of masculinity as for yourself and for myself, even involvement with the 21 convention helps so much out with like fitness, diet, mentality, business philosophy. And I think since last time we actually spoke and hung out, your business has taken on new form. You know, you're really like growing in this big way and your message is really different. So when we talk about men's improvement in this whole crazy industry that we're in, how would you define yourself in that? Yeah, I mean, I'll just kind of really briefly take you through my evolution in it. You know, I started as probably most other guys did. I picked up a copy of the game, wanted to become like the best pickup artist ever and you know, screwed around with crazy techniques and lines for, you know, a couple of years, took a bunch of boot camp seminars and then it kind of dawned on me like, okay, maybe there's some other things besides techniques involved with becoming more attractive. You know, you got to get in shape. You've got to have your career in order. You've got to be an overall just attractive, better guy. So I steered away a little bit from the pickup artist stuff. I dove really hard into like intergame stuff. Feel like I waste a lot of time like aligning my chakras and, you know, hypnotizing myself and crazy stuff like that. But finally I kind of saw the bigger picture and that was, I just needed to get my shit together. So I lost about 50 pounds and, you know, I credit a lot of that too speaking at the first 21 convention because I was probably one of the fattest speakers on the stage and I felt pretty bad about it. Yeah, if you look at pictures back in 2011, I was, you know, I'm 5'10 and I was like 2'15 at the time, double chins galore, you know, so I looked at the other guys around me. Yeah, and I was like, okay, I can certainly improve myself in this area and that'll make me more attractive guys. I lost a bunch of weight, started working out more, started playing hockey a lot more and I felt way more confident after I dropped the pounds, continued on my path to just be better with women. You know, I've hit on a gazillion girls, day game, night game, you name it and I've been coaching now for about seven years. So I guess the best way to define it is if you wanna get better at meeting girls, you have to be a better version of you. So women are attracted to the big picture, you know, just because you've got a couple smooth lines, hey, maybe you get her in a bed but you'll get found out real fast, you know, she won't wanna see you again or she won't return your texts. So I tell guys all the time, you know, you've gotta be the best version of you, you gotta be in shape, you gotta do okay financially, the better you do financially, the more attractive you'll be and you've gotta have game obviously too because that's kind of the great equalizer. So I don't know if I can define it but that's my just, yeah. Totally and I'm sure it'll come out in conversation just with your journey with it and you know, your clients journeys and all that sort of stuff. You know, one thing I really wanna ask you and this is one of the most asked questions that I get just visiting different message boards or, you know, from my own clients and I think people really watching this and I think you are the guy to ask because we have some crossover clients and one of them says you are absolutely the definition, the best at this but social anxiety, you know, is, you know, our mutual friend Gary says nobody does this better than Robbie Kramer, a guy who has crazy social anxiety who really doesn't know where to start, you know, and it's not just approach anxiety like I'm afraid to talk to that hot chick, you know, it's on a different level, like man, you know, just getting out of the house, you know, saying hello to somebody might seem kind of traumatic. With a guy like that, where do you start with him? Well, you know, a guy like that needs to make a pretty radical lifestyle change. Anyone with the intense social anxiety, there's no way he has a social circle of friends that he consistently goes out with. The other people in his life are probably homebodies, introverts and he's spending most of his time at home watching Netflix, doing whatever. So the first step, you know, for a guy like that is you've got to get him in a new sort of social situation. You've got to surround him with guys that are consistently going out, being social, and that will pull him in the right direction. And it's gonna kind of reframe all of his negative thought patterns and thought processes. You know, if a bunch of other guys that he's in constant communication with are all going out, getting rejected, you know, getting some numbers, having fun, hooking up, every rejection will no longer feel like a rejection. It'll feel like a step in the right direction. And it will no longer be this like, oh my God, I'm gonna get rejected and I'm gonna go feel like shit. It'll be, hey, I went out today and a girl told me to die in a grease fire. And six other guys will be like, awesome, dude, you went out and you did it, good for you. So first you got to kind of reframe, you know, all of those negative emotions that are associated with being social. And the greatest way to do that is with a support system. So one thing I do with all my clients is I put them in a group and I run the group and everyone's in constant communication with each other. So anytime you go out and, you know, do whatever, you get padded on the back, regardless if you fail or you succeed. And then the next thing I do, which is a little bit more hardcore for guys that are just really like, I will not approach, I will not talk to that girl, I will not go out, I will not go to the gym. I will not do whatever I have to do to get better. Like they know what to do, but for whatever reason, they just don't take the action. I use the, I use the old hit him in the wallet technique. And I use this as a last resort, but it always works. So real simple, you know, like example, what I did with Gary when he was, he was working with me for a little bit. I saw four like really cute blonde girls. We were out in LA and he had told me he had really bad approach anxiety. So I said, hey, go talk to those girls. And I even gave him a great opener. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something like honest and direct, like, hey, my friend over there told me to come talk to you. And if he didn't, he was going to kick me in the nuts. So you guys better be nice to me. Hey, I'm Gary, something like that, right? Yeah, yeah. And he just wouldn't do it. So I'm like, all right, give me your wallet. And I think he had a hundred dollar bill in there. And I took the hundred out and I said, I'm keeping this hundred dollar bill unless you go talk to those girls in the next 20 seconds. And I started counting down, 19, 18, 17. And by the time I got to 15, he was there. And he opened them and he almost had a threesome that night. Really? These girls were in love with him. Yeah. He like, I mean, you got to hear the story from him, but I mean, these girls absolutely loved him and he did great. So worst case scenario, I'll put a guy on a bet. That's one of the ways that I help a lot of my clients lose weight. That's a way that I lost weight. I said, I think I was 195 pounds at the time and I wanted to get down to like 160. So I escrowed about 3,000 bucks with my friend. And I said, if I don't weigh 160 by December 15th, the money is yours. How much time did you have in between? It was three months. Wow. It was three months. And it didn't even take me that long. I finished with a week and a half to spare. But what that whole kind of phenomenon, that betting phenomenon, is you're replacing one anxiety with a worse anxiety. So if you have approach anxiety and also you're gonna have, I'm gonna be homeless and broke anxiety, that's worse. Yeah. You'd rather deal with rejection than deal with losing a significant amount of money. So just kind of a little social hack that works wonders. And so with that, plus changing your lifestyle and surrounding yourself with guys that'll make it a more positive experience, it's pretty easy to get past those sort of issues. Yeah, yeah. So, which brings me to this because I think the story comes out in the journey of the man. And so you have this, I mean it's tough man. When you weigh whatever, you're overweight, you said you weighed 195 pounds and you make that decision that you wanna lose weight. You know, right now in retrospect, you're like, oh, well, you know, it was easy. I changed my diet and then I worked out and then I did these things and then it happened, right? And especially when your body transforms because you went the paleo route or the low carb route or whatever you wanna call it. You know, once your body switches over, you know, after a couple of weeks, you know, it just starts to transform. But what was it like, you know, really committing? And because I'm sure 3,000 bucks, you know, you can give that up too. You know, I mean, it sucks. When you're working your ass off for the first six weeks and you're changing your diet and nothing is happening, you know, that's nuts. But what I'd wanna ask you is what was the real motivator with that? You know, what was that like? What kept you going through that weight loss transition? You know, it's funny, the limiting belief for the kind of mental running commentary I had in my head, ever since I got into dating and pickup and even before that actually when I was in high school and college, I never would wanna put myself out there because the fear, I guess the baseline fear was that a girl would think I was too fat to like be worthy of her or something. And I mean, I was never even that fat. I was like, you know, five, 10, two, 15 am I heaviest, right? So no one would look at me and be like, that guy is fat, but I felt bad. You looked like what they'd call a healthy American. Exactly, healthy middle American, right? But that was kind of always my mental chatter. So I held myself back from really kind of going after women the way I wanted to because of this, you know, oh, she's gonna think I'm fat. So that was kind of my main motivation because I knew that if I could change that and if I could look in the mirror and really see a guy who was fit, I wouldn't have that excuse anymore. But that alone didn't really help me lose the weight because I was trying for like seven, eight years to lose the weight unsuccessfully. The first main motivator was a really good friend of mine moved in and he didn't have a place to crash. So he crashed on my couch for a few weeks and he just started losing weight. And he was my buddy who I had done a lot of pickup with as well. And we could always joke with each other like, you're the fat one, no, you're the fat one. And he started losing weight. I'm like, shit, I'm gonna actually be the fat one this time, like for sure I'm gonna be the fat one. So at first I just basically put myself on his exact diet and his exact plan. We'd work out together, play tennis together, go to the gym, right, eat healthy. And it was really easy because I had that buddy with me. And that's how I lost the first 20 pounds. But then, you know, he went back home. That's when I was right around 195. And without him there, it became a lot tougher to stay motivated, right? Because the other people in my life, you know, whatever they'd go to drink, they'd go out to eat Mexican food late at night. And you tend to basically, you know, you're a victim of your surroundings, right? If you're out at the bars and five year friends are like, let's get Mexican food at the food truck. It's really hard to say no to that. You know, at 2.30 in the morning when you're starving. So that's why I knew I needed to put myself on this bet. Because I knew that my own motivation or willpower wouldn't be enough. So that was kind of the turning point there. But I'm not sure I answered your question. I kind of went off on a tangent there. No, that's all right. You know, and I was asking this question mainly because I want to see how you did it in so many areas of your life. Because I know business wise, I know with your own personal life because you're one of the few guys that have, you know, you've had relationships and been a successful dating coach. You've transitioned out of that and been a single guys, successful dating coach. You know, there's all sorts of transitions that happen. But the original question was, what was happening? You know, what kept you motivated? What kept you going when stuff wasn't working? Because we see that in weight loss, right? You know, it's like, man, the first six months suck or whatever it is, the first two months, the first four weeks. But any day where you're working your ass off and you're not getting results is a horrible feeling because that comes back on you. You know, you're like, fuck, maybe I am different. And then what about with dating? You know, what about those times where I've gone through, you know, I broke up with a girl that I'd been dating for five years and then being single was totally different. You know, having open relationships and dating and opening women. You know, that was one thing. But then transitioning into another relationship, you know, difficult. So it's like we come through life with all these failures, right? Or I don't wanna say that, we come through life with all this ambition. How about that? The pursuit of making ourselves better. And in that, it is surrounded by failure. And a lot of the times we're so covered with, you know, darkness or whatever. We, you know, seeing the light is like, fuck that, man, I'll go backwards, you know? So I guess, you know, what I wanna do is ask you about a bunch of different scenarios in your life where that had happened. But in that weight loss, that's such a productive- Well, no, I mean, yeah. Well, I attributed to the thing I talked before, which is your social circle. The guys that you spend the most time with. I heard a great quote in a video a while back. I forgot who it was, but it's the really common sort of message, which is if you surround yourself with nine guys who are really successful, they're in really great shape and they do great with women, you'll become the 10th. And if you hang out with nine guys who are fat, broken, dorky, you'll also become the 10th, no matter what you're like. And, you know, I see it with guys all the time. They were in shape in like high school, college, maybe they were athletes, you know? And after college, they move back to wherever they're from, maybe Albuquerque, New Mexico, all their friends, you know, marry some girl around 25. They're all a good 20, 30 pounds overweight by 28 with a couple kids. And this guy finds himself single. What is he gonna do? Well, he's gonna find, you know, some 20 to 30 pound overweight girl, pop out a couple kids and continue working his corporate job that he hates, right? And it's not because he's a loser or anything, it's just because that's his world, that's who he surrounds himself with. So I'd say the biggest key to my success and what I see other guys succeeding, it's just surrounding yourself with the right group of people that are gonna pull you out of whatever funk you're in and push you towards where you wanna go. So I've always done a really good job of finding whether it's mentors or friends that are just more successful than I am to basically pull me along. And the one thing that I tell guys to do is you have to be able to offer value, right? If I want to befriend a guy that's a total beast with chicks and I suck, but I'm really good at programming, for example. Well, I'm not gonna offer him any value hanging out in a social situation, right? I'm just gonna cock block him with my terrible social skills. I probably don't have a lot of money to offer him, but maybe he's in a business where he could use my marketing services or my internet wizardry. So you offer value, you say, all right, well, let me do some programming with you in exchange, hang out with me, take me out, take me under your wing, show me how to hit on girls. And I've seen a lot of guys go that route and get a lot better. So you have to have some value to offer. I'll talk to potential clients. They'll be like, no, man, I'm broke, but can we just like hang out and like chill? And this may sound harsh, this may sound harsh, but I'm like, dude, why would I hang out with you? You're not gonna bring me girls, you're not gonna bring me money and you're just gonna hinder me from getting more girls or making more money. So where's the value? So I always looked at it as how can I bring value to other people that I wanted to connect with and have relationships with. And that's how I've kind of moved up the social hierarchy and it's been a big key to success. So how, let me ask you this, like, because everybody has different values, what are the root values that drive your masculinity? I mean, for me, I guess it's always been the one thing I knew that I could bring to any relationship with another guy with some guy that I wanted to be friend was I knew that I had no fear of hitting on girls all night long. So guys love going out with me because I will literally talk to every girl who is halfway decent looking, has two legs, two arms and a pulse in attempt to have a fun night. And if you're just a regular guy who you haven't hung out with a lot of guys to do that, like it opens up tons of opportunities. You're like, all right, usually I just go out and have a few beers with my buddies and chit chat, but I've talked to 20 girls tonight just because this guy, Robbie, has just pulled me out and introduced me to all these people and it's a different experience and they love it. So that's kind of what I did a few years back to surround myself with guys that I felt that I could learn a lot from. And so you can always do that. Yeah, yeah, well, so what are those things? Like what are the values you surround yourself with? So when I was, how old was I? I was like just getting into this business, I was 25 at the time, maybe 26. And I didn't really have any experience being an entrepreneur, had no idea about like marketing. I was pretty lazy, I played golf in college and then I became like professional online poker player. So I just roll out of bed, get in front of my laptop and crush the poker rooms but then online poker went away in 2007. Black Friday. So I needed a new way to make money. So I was essentially looking for guys that were both very social and had something I could learn from a money making standpoint. And that's how I kind of targeted these people that I would meet. And I'm a pretty likable guy that was one of the things that came natural to me. Like I listen more than I talk most of the time and people tend to like that if you just take an interest in them. And that wasn't because that was kind of by accident. Most of the time I did that just cause I didn't really know what to say but I would just listen and ask questions and then I'd go hit on a lot of girls. So we'd have fun together and that fun would create the bond and that would create like a lasting friendship. So I guess the moral of the story is find guys that you wanna emulate and find a way to add that value whatever way you can. It's not gonna be everybody but you only need one or two. Yeah, totally. I actually like this ongoing theme. I was the guy that could go hit on a lot of girls. That was your age. It's crazy. So I didn't know that. So you stopped playing poker in 2007 cause Black Friday was like 2012 or something like that. But what? No, 2007 was Party Poker Black Friday. That's when Party Poker shut down and I had all my money on Party Poker. They didn't freeze the account or anything like that. I cashed everything out but once Party Poker shut down the games became a lot more difficult and it just wasn't really an inspiring career going forward. So I wanted to transition out of it and I had already been doing this coaching for pickup one for about a year and a half of the time and I had started my own blog. So I was getting some clients that were blog followers and asked me to coach them. So it was a good opportunity to transition into a new business. Yeah, cool. So that's interesting. That's a whole side conversation just cause the internet poker phenomenon is an interesting thing. But your transition in inner confidence and building that up cause right now it sounds like that you've built and promote a community of guys that can as a group have a lot of value to bring each other up. If everybody's successful we're only gonna be more successful. When did that switch? Because I know you have like a prolific, prolific Facebook group that is very popular. A lot of people are always talking about it. I'm always hearing about it. When did that sort of model switch over for you to cultivate this community? That started about a year and a half ago. No, maybe a little longer than that. It's been almost two years. It'll be like two years around Thanksgiving. Started like Thanksgiving 2012. And basically all the clients I'd worked with over the years a lot of them were really successful. Some of them I was kind of bummed because I was like, God, that guy had so much potential but I felt like I failed him as a coach. So I called some of those, I called some of those old guys back and like, listen, man, we worked together, you did great but I wanted you to keep going but I just, I kind of didn't do my job to inspire you to keep going but I've got this new thing. I've got this group. You gotta just try it out. And the community effect kind of the mastermind effect is really what where the value comes in. And at first it was just like a Q&A forum where guys could post questions, post screenshots of their text message threads like, how should I respond to this girl? Or, what should I wear on this date? Post the selfie. Like, what do you think of this outfit before a date? And we say, the shirt is disgusting. Throw in the garbage, put on a V-neck, you're good. Right? But it's kind of evolved into more of like an overall, how would I describe it? We've got guys in there that are millionaire, CEOs, all different areas, walks of life, guys with a lot of success in business. I have added a bunch of my friends as moderators and basically all the moderators are, they've got a six pack. They're great with women and they're very successful in business. So when you surround yourself with these people and you get in conversations and everyone's there to help everyone else improve, I mean, there's nothing fancy or crazy you have to do. It's just a group that all kind of moves forward together. So, yeah. No, no, man, I didn't mean to interrupt. Keep going, keep going. Oh, no, that was it. I mean, that's basically the idea of it. And I love it because I get to give advice and I learn a shitload from the other moderators and from the clients as well. Everyone learns from everyone. And it's crazy the connections that people will make and just the kind of side benefits. Like, you know, you're a new guy who just joined from LA and you meet these crazy guys who are all approaching women. They're, you know, they've got hidden cameras and they're posting the videos of them striking out with girls and everyone's laughing at them and having fun with it. And then, you know, you take a trip to New York to visit your family and you're like, oh, there's seven other guys that are in the group that live in New York. Why do I need a hotel? I'll just crash with them and we'll go out together. We'll work two nights and scam on more girls there. So, you know, it creates a, it's just a great community. And before that, when I was coaching, I didn't really have much of a community. It was just me working one-on-one or doing seminars and boot camps. And guys would come in, they'd take a boot camp and it wouldn't really be a lasting change unless they were really self-motivated. So this way I get to basically yell at people all day every day because I know if you're not participating, if you're not posting, you're probably watching Netflix. I'm not gonna let that slide. Yeah, man. So one of the things that I was gonna ask were the results that have come from the group, which you kind of explained, but what I wanna know is, because I know this with my groups, is that we start out talking about women. You know, that's pretty much where it starts. You know, that's where the nature of, you know, my coaching began. But man, of anybody that is on the upper levels of that group, if they've been involved for like, man, I'd even say like six months or something like that, let alone a couple of years, their conversations will always be about like health, fitness, mentality, you know, diet, you know, different type of vitamin complex or experiments with their body and all sorts of crazy stuff like that. What do you see happen with your guys? You know, where do they start growing in? When they get this, when they start to get an even keel with socializing and sex, what are the main focuses and cores of, you know, masculinity that they do focus on? Yeah, the, I see a lot of exactly what you described. You know, guys will, some guys will come into the group in great shape and other guys will come in as, you know, as fatties, right? And after they transform their body a little bit, they'll start playing a whole different game. They'll be like, all right, well, now I'm thin but I want to be completely shredded. I want to like measure my body fat and, you know, compete in different crossfit competitions or, you know, whatever, whatever they're into. For me, I started playing competitive hockey again and I was like, well, I don't want to be in good shape just to look good. I want to be like stronger, faster, more powerful out there. So, yeah, there's a lot of conversations around fitness and health. A lot of people doing cool things, triathlons, different competitions. We'll do like weight loss bets, group bets at the beginning of the spring to get in shape for summer. And then there's a lot of conversations around just kind of living a more sexual lifestyle. You know, guys will start getting good with girls and they'll want to explore, you know, dating many women at a time, three sums, orgies, the whole sex party, swinger scene. You name it, you know, you name it, I've tried it and some of the other guys in the group have tried it too or are heavily involved in it. And then there's a lot of discussion around business, entrepreneurial stuff, passive income. One of the big things, I'll give away a little secret here, we have almost everyone in the group that utilize these new social sharing platforms like Airbnb or Relay Rides. It's basically apps and websites that are designed to allow you to make money off the shit you already have. So you have an apartment and you want to travel to Europe, post that shit on Airbnb and your trip will be paid for, right? If you have a car and you don't use it that much, post it on Relay Rides, let someone rent it from you. So there's a lot of ways that guys can start making easy cash from the stuff that they already have with these new economies that have kind of been coming out in the last year or two. So there's a lot of talk on generating passive income, making more money. In addition to, I'd say 50% of the content is really focused around dating sex women and then 50% is health and wealth. And then the occasional sidebar stuff, whatever that may be. No man, that's cool. It's so interesting because when we get into the conversation of men, at least in this culture and in this era that we're in, man, there is such a focus on this, like such a need for a voicing for it, but so many men don't really know where to go or it's kind of sad because these communities exist out there, but there's always such a focus on health and fitness, stuff like certain sports, certain martial arts, fighting, entrepreneurship, all that passive income stuff. Man, it's such a key center point of every conversation that I have, like how to travel better, how to have those different types of lifestyles and sexual lifestyles, which I love that topic. So let me ask you this, what for yourself, you know, and it of course is a podcast and it's public and all that sort of stuff, but what is your ideal of the sexual life? Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to kind of share some intimate details of my current relationship, my girlfriends, cool with it. So, you know, she may, depending on who sees it, she may give it a shit about it. Well, maybe this is your life, but maybe it's not your life. Yeah, well, to say it's somebody, maybe his name is Shmabe Shramer, right? So I'm in a, call it, I mean, I best, I guess the best way to describe it is, I'm currently in a relationship that's, it's open, except she has no desire for it to be open on her side. So basically I'll do my thing, I'll hook up with girls randomly traveling, whatever I see fit. And she has the option to date other guys, but she doesn't really take the option. And the reason why that is, it's because I provide for all of the emotional needs that she desires. And that's why I tell guys, if you can provide all of the emotional needs that a woman craves, she'll have no reason to cheat. And women are emotional creatures. They want the entire spectrum, right? They want the guy who's like their best friend, they can crown their shoulder and the guy that'll choke them out in bed and have crazy sexual experiences with. They want the entire thing. So if you can provide that, she's probably not going anywhere. And then together, her and I will hunt for girls together, have crazy orgies, threesomes, all that fun stuff. And it's great because it's almost like I have this wingman who, you know. It's a lot easier. She's a chick. It's a lot easier, especially when it's a girlfriend too because if it's just a girl that's helping you out, that's one thing. But if it's a girl that is like a home base, like it just builds so much more trust. But you brought up something interesting. Actually there's a lot of things that you brought up in that, which I've found to be similar in some situations, you know. I think everybody's different and all that sort of stuff. But when you have a girlfriend that you have an open relationship with, it is very common to have the exact situation that you have where you go out and you meet other people, you date other people and they have the option. But if they're fulfilled and if they're comforted in that way, they just tend not to. Or like, I mean, I had a relationship for about five years and I think she was with like four other people and I have no idea like 120 other people. Like I mean, the ratio was just so different of partners. But it was crazy, you know, that phenomenon happened. And I think what's so interesting about this is because you were talking about, you know, a woman being an emotional being being fulfilled. If you allow women to make a choice about, if you allow anybody, I mean, not just that, I don't even want to make it about man and woman. If you allow people to make a choice to have their options and to empower themselves. And if you can create a situation where they're truly making their own decisions and they're able to feel comfortable with it, I mean, you don't see a lot of resistance. You don't, and resistance may be the wrong words that would be implying that I'm like trying to control it. But you just see a level of being content in that area. It may be resentment. Maybe resentment is a better word. Cause that's so, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but like for me, whatever I've been in relationships where my girlfriend at the time was like, you can't see other people, you know, you have to be monogamous. I'd get really resentful after a while. I'd be like, and I wouldn't even realize it was happening, but I'd build up this resentment because she was essentially, you know, the person stopping me from doing and living out the desires that I wanted to experience. And I feel like that happens a lot. And that's kind of the killer of relationships when a, when resentment builds, you can pretty much kiss a relationship goodbye. But if you just let your partner do what they want to do and they have their options and you know you're the best option, they're usually not going to go very far. Man, I was actually, whether you're a guy or a girl. Well, I mean, this is the weird thing is, you know, when I was talking to, I talk to dating coaches all the time. And one thing with me, I've always been about sex. I've always been about, you know, being sexual and getting into that mode because it is a different language. And if you're like, if you're learning to approach women, you're really learning a social game. If you're learning to pull women, you're learning a social game. If you're learning to escalate to have sex, you're still learning that social language and then moving to the sexual. But to really live a sexual lifestyle, you speak a different language. And man, I was talking to this guy, very high level dating coach. And I was just sitting there and he was telling me how he was in a relationship and that his wife or his partner was sleeping with other people. And I was just like, okay, you guys have an open relationship. And I remember going back and telling Jason Savage who, I don't know if you ever met him. Did you meet Jason ever? I know, I think I may have met him once really briefly, but I know about him, so. Yeah, yeah, well anyway, big time seducer guy, watch his speech, 2010, Sweden, 2009 in Orlando. I mean, the guy was a guy like we had a lot of, we did, we definitely lived a sexual life with a lot of people. We actually lived in the same apartment complex. And mine was totally like this bomb exploded, a total mess. And there were studios, they're really small. And his was like covered with fish tanks and velvet and everything. And I remember telling him, he's like, man, Steve, you live like a fucking pig. Like I don't get it. And I'm like, yeah, because the only reason why a woman would ever come to my room is to sleep with me. And he's like, well, that's the same as my room. But mine's like nice and has like velvet and fish tanks and all sort of stuff. But he was an interesting guy. And one of the few guys that I think, especially back then was doing it. There were guys that were known in the dating industry, but they were like this one guy who I was having a conversation with who was telling me about his significant other cheating on him, or not cheating on him, but sleeping with other people and it made him crazy. And I was like, what are you, I thought you were this guy. Like I thought you were this dude that got chicks. Like what conversation are you having? And he's like, I just can't handle the inner game. And like to hold the right frame. And I'm like, look, you know, I am so surprised by this conversation that I'm having with you because I really respected your, you know, whatever the stuff that you were saying. And now I'm kind of questioning it. But I just said, you know, when I do that, if I just let them do it, and I say, go ahead, like please, like, you know, they come back. And I know this when I dated like three or four girls at the same time and like really had relationships with them, they all have to know about it. You know, they may not interact, but the more they do interact, the easier it is. And it's like, hey, I'm going to go bone Teresa right now. Sophia, you know, if you're going to be pissed, be pissed. Like, or go do whatever you got to do. And even when I would say, this is like some, you know, some, some high level stuff, but it's actually a natural language when people start doing this. If I'd say, well, okay, if you want to go fuck whoever, or go hook up with them, like go out with them. Like please do it. I want you to make your own decision. I'm going to go do this. And they may go with that other person and decide, like they want to go be with that person or whatever. But man, I will tell you this, that has never happened to me. They always come back and just say, hey, I just need to get that out of my system. I'm just trying to figure this out. This is confusing time. We're dating a lot of people. You know, all that sort of stuff. It's a, I saw your big finger there. That was. Oh, I had a low battery sign come up on my phone. Blocking your pretty face. That was all right. That was all right. But you know, it was like that mentality is like, it's what you do. And it's interesting. It's actually cool talking about it. What I want to ask you about this because you brought up, you know, three sums and orgies and stuff like that. And one thing Jason and I would always talk about in a conversation that I could really only have with him and maybe like Hypnotica or Eric Vonsito. Very few people was that man, when you're in that mode of sex, when a lot of people are having sex with each other, the ego goes away, man. You know, it's no longer about, it's isn't the coolest fucking thing. Like the first. The jealousy goes away, the ego goes away. It's just like pure fun and yeah, it's just fun. Yeah, when did that switch for you and what was that like? I mean, I remember the first kind of orgy I experienced and it was kind of crazy because we were the ones, me and my girl were the ones that kind of got the orgy going. There were these, I think it was three other couples that had all, it was at a sex party and like a mansion in LA. And there was these three other couples and they basically approached us and they're like, you guys are hot, you guys want to play. And like, yeah, sure, why not, right? So we kind of go into a room and the girls start pawing at my girl and they start pawing at me. And I think they were expecting us to be like way less, I don't know, experienced or comfortable. Yeah, everybody says they want to do it, but then when you find out somebody that really is down, you're like, whoa. Yeah, so just this wild like orgy broke out. At one point there had to be like 16 people in the room, just all kind of going at it, craziness. And it was hot, it was just cool. Like definitely an experience. I had had three symptoms to show like that before, but I'd never been in like a full blown orgy. So that was definitely like an eye-opening experience just to see so many people just comfortable with themselves having fun, no judgment, no like shame. There's so much shame and judgment around sex and our culture and it sucks. And it's funny, because afterwards I was having a conversation with one of the other girls that one of the girls from the couple that kind of approached us. And she was like, wow, you guys were so much fun. Like we didn't expect you guys to be so much fun. She's like, have you guys done this before? Like actually no, this is our first time like being in an orgy, but we go out all the time and pull girls and she's like, what do you mean? You pull girls like unicorns and I'm like, what's a unicorn? She's like, you know, you're just out at a bar and it's like a single girl and you just take her home. She's like, you guys can do that? I'm like, yeah, we do it all the time. It's weird because the two communities do not interact. You know, the- They don't, that's when I realized it. But I wonder because it's like, does the pickup mentality make people, I think people that get really hardcore into pickup. You know, of course you and I have gotten hardcore into pickup in a way where we became sexual and that sort of stuff. But I think guys who just become slaves to the beast of the industry and they're buying everything, but not fully committing, it almost, I put it on the same level is like extreme feminism is sexually nullifying you. You know, and it makes you feel like an outsider. But that's so cool that you've had that. I wanna ask you more about that or talk about it more. You know, for myself when I first started doing that, it was such a revelation because every guy wants to have a threesome, right? You think about it, you're like, fuck, I wanna fuck a bunch of chicks at once and like have two girls sucking my dick and another one making out with me. You know, some girl, you know, going down on my ass or whatever crazy shit, I don't know what you're into. But no, man, I mean, it just gets crazy. Like, I want that, that would be so powerful. But then when you actually, first off, the threesome, when you start to experience it, it's like, it's cool, you know, but sex is so direct and impersonal, unless you can like experience each girl individually, it's, well, for me personally, this isn't for everybody, but it's not as fulfilling, you know? All the, all the documents. Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah. No, like as you're saying that, I totally get it, like a hundred percent. And I've had that exact same experience where it's like, you know, because there's this third person there, it's, you know, an awesome thing about sex is really connecting with, you know, the person in front of you. And when there's three, it can make that a lot, that can be a challenge, you know? And I've had, I've had a, totally. And then, you know, there, there could be some jealousy with your girl, like, you know, and not wanting to give too much attention to the other girl and all that stuff that you have to manage. And trust me, I've been really bad about that in the past and that's caused a lot of drama. But yeah, totally. And we've, we've had a couple of experiences where I felt like the three of us were all like really connected, which were, I mean, head and shoulders better than, than the other stuff. But I haven't actually ever had this conversation with someone, cause I don't know a whole lot of people that do what I do. So it's, it's awesome that, that, you know, to talk about this shit. You know, you know what I do? Okay, so here's, this is like some, I hope this can remain in the, that's why they work about your podcast, but here's what I do, man. All, like, if I'm really into a girl, if I'm really into a girl, and I actually, I don't do this anymore. The relationship that I have now is monogamous and we both decided on that. And you know, we could talk about that later if you want. But the, the, and both of us are really fucking experienced. It's kind of bizarre and crazy. Cause I don't know a lot of women that are, I mean, man, it's pretty awesome. But when I used to do this, the girl that was like my girlfriend or the girl that I really, you know, was connecting with, and sometimes it wasn't my girlfriend, it was just two new girls. The key that I found with that is, is like, when I come, like I'm most intimate with the girl that I'm closest with. So like, I remember this one time, I was in that same apartment that, that complex that we all lived in. And I remember these two girls came over, I was about to go on a road trip to the, the pickup convention in LA. Oh man, this is crazy. And the, my friend who was going to drive there came and I'm like, dude, these two girls just came over. I'm like, sorry, this doesn't happen all the time. Like rarely do you tell and it's one thing when you go out and hunt, but when a girl brings you another girl, that shit never fucking happens, man. So I'm like, dude, you can fucking wait in the car, I don't care how long it takes, go get something to eat, like see LA, you can fucking watch, you probably should. And in fact, he ran out. That was the, that was, he left. Cause it was, it was shocking, right? You know, I mean he had an experience and anything like that and was like, what the fuck? But I remember finally when I was getting off this one girl that I didn't know was giving like mad head. She could suck dick so good. She was like getting all crazy, like getting all down there. And I mean, I was going to blow my load. And the girl that I knew who brought her, I was like, look, I want, you know, I want to fucking come, but I want you to, I want you to look at me and kiss me when I'm coming. I want to have it with you. And at that point, like she knew the girl like outperformed her, right? You know, this new chick was like, like a new set of guns. And it was just such a cool thing because it was like, man, it really changed a lot. Like if a girl is connecting with you better sexually, make sure like I'm connecting emotionally or psychologically or giving attention to the girl at the same time. And even in the orgy, which is so much better, which is where it all comes clear. And I actually want to ask you about like sexual dysfunction and stuff like that because everybody's always talking about that in the scene, like with porn and whatever. I actually disagree with that. I think porn is not sex and it's a distortion. If you're only sitting at home jerking off, you're fucked. But if you get comfortable with sexual situations, you'll slowly come into who you are. Because if I want to threesome and I want to dominate a bunch of bitches or whatever it is, right? If I want to dominate, that's not sex. Or that's not the language of sex that's going to actually come out of that once I start having these experiences. But in the orgy, that's where I got it. There'd be a girl fucking sucking this other dude's dick and it'd be like this big dick and I'd be like, oh fuck, I'd get jealous. As soon as I interacted in the game, as soon as I spoke the language with somebody else, it was like, I love her watching my chicks suck that dick. I love being connected to her being fucked by somebody else or me fucking someone else. And if she's feeling that imbalance, it's really all for us and all for the group. And it's just such an interesting thing. It's almost like a lot of people say it's mentally hard to handle, but when you're in that experience, it's totally natural. It's totally the most normal thing. That being said, having all these experiences and this crazy sexual enlightenment. And man, a lot of pickup coaches have not had this. This is the golden language, I would say. Having these sexual experiences, what do you say like when guys are saying I have sexual anxiety, or I can't get it up, or my dick's too small, or I come too fast? What would your advice be to guys like that on just hitting a point of reference with it? It was kind of interesting for me because when I first started having sex at age 17, I wouldn't call it premature ejaculation, but I'd come pretty quick, a minute to five. And I could go seven times in a row. And at one time, fuck my high school girlfriend, seven times a row in the tent in her mom's back part. And if I had more condoms, I probably could have gone eight. Yeah. Like the refraction period or whatever you want to call that is literally like a minute. Now, forget about it. But I certainly dealt with that when I was first starting out having sex. And I'll talk to clients, talking to a client the other day, and he had that problem like, well, how many total times do you think you've had sex? Like, you know, sexual acts. And he's like, I don't know, maybe 50. And I'm like, dude, I had 50 times by the time. And you know, he's 26. And I had sex with my girlfriend at least once a day for the first 50 days we were dating for sure. And you know, experience is huge, right? Cause for me it took, I don't know, three, 400 times just having sex to kind of get over that. And then it was funny cause after that, I don't know, for the past, I don't know, age, say like age 19 until when I started having a lot of these new sexual experiences about a year and a half, two years ago, I was really confident in bed, sorry, battery again. And basically like I could last as long as I wanted. I could pretty much come when I wanted. I'd have the occasional like, you know, meet a girl with really big thighs, be a little too drunk and either wouldn't be able to come or come super quick, like one night stand sort of things. But for the most part, I was in control. And then when I started getting into these new kind of sexual adventures, having threesomes and orgies and stuff like that, there was a lot more weird shit going on that I wasn't comfortable with. And I find that whenever I was in a situation where I wasn't comfortable or I felt like just really new, I'd have a ton of, I just couldn't get it up. The first threesome I had. And it's like no matter what you do, but if it's just no matter what you, they could be sucking your dick or fuck it or whatever, they could be doing everything. It didn't matter. If you're just a little bit off, it doesn't work. Even though you want it to. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the very first threesome I had with my girlfriend a while ago in Vegas, I have these two girls naked, they're like going at it in the bed. But I felt this little bit of resistance from the other girl. She was way more into my girl than she was into me. And that totally put me in my head. And I just couldn't get it up. But the second, she started giving me some love and affection super hard, all of a sudden. Yes. I had that experience a few different times and what I found was that at first, when I would go out and try to pull girls with my girl, and if she would do the work, if she was the main person creating the attraction, I'd be the one left out and then I wouldn't be able to function in the bedroom because of this mental shit. So I had to change that. I'm like, all right, I've got to be the one in control. I've got to be the one generated attraction. It's got to be a mutual attraction between the three of us. It doesn't work if the girl's just into me or the girl's just into her. It has to be an actual, like you're saying, it's a sexual act. It's not like, because porn, a whole different story, right? It doesn't matter who's into who. It's just fucking, right? And then different situations where, you get guys involved, different anxieties come up. So what I always notice is that with myself and what I've seen in clients, if you feel uncomfortable or if you feel like the girl's not really giving you the sort of love or attention that she should be giving you, I don't know, I have what I call like anti-rape deck. If I know a girl's not into me, there's no way I could get it up. So I'm like, I'd be incapable of like, you know, I don't know if that's PC language. Well, no, no, but you, yeah. Like, let me just, whatever, if somebody has a problem with that name, what you're fucking saying is if somebody doesn't like you, the sexual exchange is broken. And I think that violent acts of sex can only happen when people are sexually detached. Only when people are sexually detached. So let's look at what detaches people from sex. Yeah, sure, porn, but our fucking lifestyle. You know, everything about our life is not sexual. There's so much, I was just, you played hockey right before this, I was training with my buddy, I got my ass kicked. Man, I'm surprised I can do this interview because I got hit in the head so much. But we were doing all this training, he just came back from Thailand. So he's trained three months straight and can spar like a motherfucker. But he was saying, man, you know, America, there's just so much shame. Like, there isn't shame, there isn't judgment about sex. In Thailand, where I'm at, you know, there's all this jealousy and all these other problems or whatever. But here, every guy thinks that he's doing something wrong just because he has a sexual urge. And, you know, it's like you talked about in a situation that you felt uncomfortable with or detached, it doesn't work. You know, when I've been in those situations where something's off and it usually has to do with that emotional connection. I'm gonna say this isn't for everybody because a lot of my friends are in porn and how I, this is who I talk to, man. I couldn't talk to anybody in the pickup industry, artist industry about it, except for very few because nobody was really having these experiences. They were lying about it, right? And, or just betting like drunk chicks and caring about lay reports rather than the actual, you know, experience. But, you know, basically like if there was one thing that I wasn't connecting with them, then it just, it didn't work. It didn't, and that didn't happen a lot of times, but when it did happen, there was no, there was no way I was having sex. There was no way. And so I think in order to, what people make sex these days is an image, is an icon, is to be a, you know, a pinup girl or a PUA superstar, or nobody's being the authentic, empowered identity. They're being the image of the authentic, empowered identity. And man, then when they get in the sack, and this is another thing that always happens with guys, like especially, it's used to happen all the time at conventions because I always talk about sex, if somebody would say, well, look, man, you know, do you have these problems in bed? And I'd be like, man, like I have, but they're not problems, they happen. You know, if you're jerking off the porn and your neural pathways are fucked, guess what? Sit, sit alone naked with a girl with a limp dick. You know, don't eat your pussy just to serve her, but get involved in the sexual language with her and talk to her about it. Stop making it a big deal because it never is a big deal. I actually got an email from somebody about this saying, like, how dare could you say sex is not a big deal? No, sex is a big deal when you're not communicating. You know, and then you're actually committing, and I'll even tell you this, if you're just betting chicks and you are not, and there's a time and a place for it, you know, early 20s, 30s, whatever, you get divorced, go fuck a bunch of chicks if you want, that's cool. But if you consider that your sexual expression, you're in a way, I don't wanna make this too dramatic, but you're committing a violence to yourself. You're committing a disconnect to yourself. That's probably a better word. But the only way stuff like rape or true objectification can happen is when we're disconnected. But in your situation, you're massively connected, and I don't know what your sexual situations are like, but your brain changes. You're in a different mindset, and she's in a different mindset. In the daytime, you could never call her a bitch. You could never slap her ass, or maybe you could never, you know, try and stick your whole fucking fist up her pussy, and you know, well, somebody else is fucking her in the ass. You could never do those things, but if you're in that sexual mode, and especially if you're in that pure unity, that's not objectification. That's a language that you are speaking of a different side of your mind that everybody's freaking like ashamed to talk about and won't admit that they've had that experience. Anyway, I can go on and on about this. But no, I totally know what you're like. Yes. I'm like, totally on the same page. It's when you're really connected with a girl, and you know, it's like, there's no rules, like what she may or may not have been into, like totally changes. Like, you know, I've had girls before who say like, I would never, you know, take it in the ass. I hate anal sex. I would never, ever do it. Right. And then after hanging out with me for a while, they're addicted to it. They're like, I couldn't have sex without also having anal sex, because it doesn't feel like the full experience. I'm like, and, you know, I don't say that to brag. I say it because like, if you can really connect with a girl and kind of overcome or pass over that whole, like exactly what you're talking about, this whole notion of being disconnected and just sex being this violent act, it's amazing what sort of fun you guys can have together and the connection that can come of it. I mean, I remember talking with Savage and we were, I think we did a video of it, but I don't know where the hell it would be, but it was at the 2009, 21 convention. And we were like, man, it's not about dick size. It's not about sexual performance. It's about the connection and experience that you bring that makes it all change, you know, that would have women saying like, this, you know, I've never had anything like this. This is like an unbelievable thing. And, you know, I think that's so important when I talk to like, you know, my porn buddy, Eric Everhard, he's like a really enlightened dude. And actually I gotta talk to him later today, which I may have to cut this short in the next 20 minutes or so. But, you know, his whole thing is like, no, man, I'm the king of performance. It's like, well, fuck, of course, man. You know, you've since you're 37, since the time you were 20, you were getting paid, you know, a thousand bucks to bone people. You know, fuck, you're the fucking super pro, man. But, you know, for myself, I couldn't rely on those amazing physical and endurance qualities. But when we talk about it, it's like, no, man, a woman's mind switches. You know, there's something about, and he'll even tell you, you know, like, get to know her pussy. I mean, there's very few people that will talk about women's pussies where I'm like, whoa, I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. But he'll like be, oh no, and there's this kind that's like this and that and da-da-da-da. And you gotta see it and examine it. And I just remember one time I was, we were, I was with Jason with Savage and we were hooking up with these girls. I just remember, man, the time, I think it was the first time we ever like did this is a group setting. But I just remember he took so much time like examining that chick's pussy and feeling it and just going like, you don't need to do this, but this was like a way that he really exploded the sense of comfort with it was like, man, this is beautiful, feel this. Man, let me feel yours. And like, look at this. Oh man, you guys taste different, taste each other. Oh, they must have like eaten that up. Oh dude, they went, yeah. And then it all went back to the dicks. So he's like, look at that fucking dick. Look at my dick, what do you like about it? Smell it, you know what? Yeah, that's hot, that's fucking hot, man. It's so crazy, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. Now that's, I'm gonna have to try that next time because I've never spent, I mean, I've certainly spent a lot of time, but I've never really like examined one like what you're talking about that he did, so. Well, let's just get into it. Get passionate about it. And you know, it's so funny. Like some, I'll say these as cold reads in like, people will be like all like surprised by it. But if you're in an orgy setting, or if you're sexually fluid with people, you know, it's like all women think their pussy juice, their pussy gets wetter than most women. All women think their pussy juice is like way too thick. It embarrasses them in public. All women love cum, they love dick, they love the scent of cum, they love how they do it. If they're afraid of blowjobs, because they're too young or just don't like them for some reason, then it's just them getting comfortable with them. If you can get somebody to get comfortable and do something sexual for the first time and open them up, man, you've opened a whole new world to them. And they love you for that. I mean, I don't know if you have this where you've like, because when we speak the language of sex in our society, people get, there's all this shame built up with it and a lot of times people spin off into chaos, right? So there were times where I would have like a mad, like threesome or orgy with like massive like gang bang shit for with a lot of these girls. And then some would just kind of dip into the community and dip out. And then they'd start getting into this like other lifestyle of promiscuity. But I remember, which wasn't what we were doing, we were all having sex and trying to not disrespect her. So promiscuity is cool, but like she wasn't doing it out of her true self. But they'd always come back and say, man, like I'm in too deep, Steve, with this sexually. Right. But it's, isn't it crazy? Like they, it's like they have such a link to it. It's like fighting the, right. Oh, totally. If you can open a girl up and give her an experience she's never had with anyone else. I mean, they're not, they can't forget that for sure. Yeah, it's, you know, it's years later, man. I would always tell people it's like, it's not even a, it's not a sexual performance trick. It's like, can you make the environment connection there? Because those girls like four years later, five years later, man, some of them like seven or eight years later, they'll fuck other people, they'll have babies, they'll have relationships, they'll be married, and they'll come back and just say, no, you know, I'm feeling a little bit off sexually. Like, can we at least talk about it? Can we, what? You know, it's such a weird scenario of what just gets so branded in their head. And the sad part is, is the only reason why it gets branded in their head is because nobody else is doing that. You know. I know. And I feel terrible for women in that situation where they like, you know, they'll dip into it and they'll really enjoy it. And then for whatever reason, the shame will kind of pull them out. And then they go down, you know, the traditional path or whatever you want to call it, but they'll always be, you know, FOMO-ing about what could have been. And it's not a recipe for a happy life, you know, it sucks. Yeah. Man, let me ask you this, like with your girlfriend, you know, what I see with a lot of people swinging is some people will slow down, some people will continue on with it, but either way, or some people switch relationships, that happens a lot in it, which can be a really confusing thing, you know. But where do you see yourself going with this? Do you think you're gonna just continue whenever or you're not even thinking about it? You're just going with the flow or, you know, two years down the road, do you think that where do you wanna be with this sort of sexual lifestyle? You know, I guess the only thing I really think about is, you know, I'm 32. At some point I wanna have kids, you know, I don't wanna be like too old to not be able to play sports with my kids and that sort of thing. So I definitely wanna experience that life, you know, having a family and stuff like that. I could never see myself really being in a traditional monogamous relationship without any of the kind of sexual stuff going on. I mean, I couldn't see it now, maybe in five or seven years, you know, or even three asked me again and I could be like, yeah, I did that stuff, it was fun. Just because my mindset has changed throughout the years that I almost can't really trust what I'm gonna think in three or four years, you know, I ping ponged a lot. I never thought that I would ever really be living this sort of lifestyle like, you know, four or five years ago, the idea of having a threesome was like, yeah, the idea of just having a threesome was so like out in outer space, like how could I pull that off? Like it's hard enough just finding one and then all these crazy experiences, but it's fun, you know, you grow, you learn so much about yourself, like being able to be in that orgy situation and like all the different emotions and the jealousy or the, you know, the whatever comes up comes up and I don't know, call me a guy who just likes to experience what everything, what life has to offer, but I definitely see myself like I'm really happy in the relationship because it allows me to basically do what I want when I want. I hate the feeling of like being trapped or not having my freedom to like do what I wanna do when I wanna do it. So that's always kind of been my thing. Like I feel like that's why I'm an entrepreneur. That's why I do a lot of the things I do just because of this idea that I just hate rules, I hate boundaries and I like to be able to write my own ticket. So I don't think I, you know, for I guess for, you know, whatever that means, I would guess that I'd continue doing this for at least a few more years and decide from there. Yeah, totally. Even with myself, you know, I'm monogamous now and actually what Vonsita told me in 2009, we were talking about sex and we're at this one conference and had met each other for the first time and I mean, we were talking a lot about sex and it was just, you don't have these conversations with people and you just said, man, I'll tell you this, you know, whatever you think, I'm not saying this is gonna happen to you at all but this is just what he had said to me. He's like, whatever you think, you know, with all this stuff, you're gonna meet somebody and she's gonna sweep you off your feet and it'll, it just happens, you know, it just happens whether it's situation or your time in life. Now I'm gonna say that there's no, I can't say where I'm gonna be at in a year or a month or two years. Right now, this is just what we have decided on and it can be a challenge at times but it works, it's cool. You know, I totally, monogamy is like totally unnatural but I also think the culture we live in is totally unnatural and how we evolved was small groups of people and we probably didn't have that many sexual partners but to have one and be domesticated on the level of expectation in our culture these days is absurd. The rules we make are being made by people who aren't having sex, who haven't had these experiences, who are either afraid of sex, they're too conservative or they've been traumatized by it and the cultural mentality of sex does not come from people who have had that and it's really sad, man, it's toxic. That's where you get these people saying, you know, the crazy feminist stuff, you know, I'm all for women, you know, empowering themselves and having equal rights but when it is attacking or with the crazy pickup stuff when it's just over the top, you know, but the solution is more connection. Hey, I wanna ask you this, people are gonna kill me if I don't but Threesome's, I got a few things in my pocket that I could give away but like what was one of the key things that you noticed about Threesome's that when you started having them and now you have essentially a wing woman, a swinger, a swinger girlfriend, what was the biggest revelation with that? With like, what do you mean? Like how can a guy who doesn't have any experience? Oh, okay, how to make it happen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have to make it fun for your girl. You have to make it an adventure for your girl and you have to realize that at any point, if she's not having fun, if she's not digging it, then the harder you push, the worse it's gonna go. Yes. So that's the first thing, like. Yeah. It's gotta be a joint effort. You guys have to be a team. And would you say that it doesn't, would you say that it doesn't happen with like a framing or like a lot of guys are looking for a routine but I think from my perspective is that's like the, you can't control somebody into a threesome. No, yeah. I mean, you're gonna find girls, I would say, I don't know, 80% of girls are at least open to it. I'd say 20% are just like, no way, not for me, never gonna do it. No matter what you say, you can't change my mind. That's when you're talking to them in the club. No, I'm talking about like a girl that you're dating. Oh yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, like your girlfriend, like if you're trying to convince your girl to have threesomes with you. But then most girls, you know, with today's culture and society, like it's totally cool for girls to make out and to have like sexual experiences with each other. So most are gonna be like at least open to it on some level. And once, you know, basically what I've done in the past to, you know, I've always been honest and straightforward with the girls I date. I'm like, listen, this is who I am. I'm a fucking dating coach. Like there's no way I'm gonna be the guy like. And they love that. That's like the easiest cheat there is. Oh man, here's my 21 convention species is my website. Yeah, this is what I do. Say yes, you're saying yes to a lot. So they're, right. It's like you're saying yes. You're signing up for this sort of lifestyle. And they know that and they're on board. And we've tried a whole lot of different scenarios like where to go and meet girls, how to pick them up. One of my favorite places to go is the Abbey in West Hollywood. It's a gay bar, but it's like, it's like this amazing venue with, it's just a super sexual venue. It's not about being gay. It's just this crazy awesome place. Yes, everybody's happy and dancing. Yes, exactly. Everyone's happy. Everyone's drunk. Everyone's having a great time. And it just has a really great vibe to it. And my thought was like, well, I'm guessing there's gonna be more girls here who are open to that sort of sexual experience. Then if you go to like a nightclub or like a real hoity-toity hotel bar, that sort of thing. So we've had some, we've definitely had some luck there. Just a funny story. You ever seen that video by that dude Vitali that walks up to girls and he does like the three questions? Well, wait a minute. The BangBus episode where he couldn't get it up or the, he actually did a BangBus video and he couldn't perform. But it's that nervousness. No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's hilarious. I haven't seen that one. Yeah, but yeah, with the Lamborghini and. Yeah, that one's funny too. Well, he'll go up to girls and it'll be like, hey, excuse me, I need to ask you like three slightly awkward questions. Do you find me attractive? Are you single? What's your excuse for not making out with me? And then he makes out with him. I don't know if you've seen that one, but. I was like, I bet that could work pretty easily for three reasons. So I'm out, I'm with my girl at the Abbey and walk up to a girl, have my girl on my arm and I don't know what I said to her, but just some situational like, hey, what's going on? We start chatting. She immediately starts like pying at my girl and maybe 30 seconds into the interaction, I go, all right, I got three questions for you. Do you find us independently attractive? And she goes, yeah, I go, are you in an exclusive metagamous relationship? She goes, no, like, so what's your excuse for not making out with us? And she kind of like smiles and looks at me like a deer in a headlight. And I just push my girl's head into her head and they start making out and then I grab her and we start making out and like a circle of people emerge around us like watching us. And then it becomes this voyeur's thing too, like women get off to that, they get off to being watched. Right. And then we took her home, it wasn't very hard to take her home. We're just like, hey, we live right up the street, let's go party somewhere else. She's like, okay. So that was a fairly, not a lot of bells and whistles needed to happen to just being direct, like just finding a girl who was hanging out at a venue where you think it would happen and then being direct with her and being the man, calling the shots. I forgot that we were back at the gay bar. That would so be like crack to women at a gay bar. That would be so like, a girl in a club that could work but I think women get a lot of tension and resistance if you're making out with a big group. It could happen, you get into that sexual frenzy but at a gay bar, everybody's like, yeah, you're beautiful, you're beautiful for it. You're not a slut. Where is it a club? There's all this other fucking connotation that comes with it. Yeah. Yeah. I'll talk about it real quick, just a fun little, I don't know, call it a little ploy but it's great for when you're in a, a lot of the three things we've had have been in just like after party situations where you're with a big group of people and you don't know who's gonna hook up with who and there's guys, like everyone's on the prowl, you know, after a club or sort of thing. And I was in Germany a couple of years ago and I started hitting on this girl who looked like she was alone but it turned out she was with like 11 of her other friends and they were all couples. And after chatting with her for a few minutes, like one of the dudes comes over, turns out he's from Huntington Beach where I grew up and he's like, oh yeah, we have this immediate connection. He's like, hey, you need to play this game with us. So I'm like, okay, what kind of game? He's like, trust me, you'll like this game. So they put us around this table, it's like a circular table in the middle of the table is a big bottle of Jack and ice cubes and they line everyone up, guy, girl, guy, girl, guy, girl in a circle and they said, one of the guys like, okay, all the guys grab a piece of ice, put it in your mouth, ready, set, go. And the guys would just pass ice to the girl next to them. And what happened, you know, the ice would just go around so you'd essentially be making out with a girl on each side. So here I am in Germany, like going out alone because my buddy was too long over to go out. That's something that totally could happen in Germany too because it's just such a culture for that. Yeah, it's great. The German ice game. So, and then after like five minutes, all the guys switched spots. Now you're making out with two girls on either side. And what happens like during the game, obviously you're passing the ice but any girl who's into you is gonna essentially just make out with you. The ice is just a proxy, you know, to touch lips, right? So what I, like when I came back, I realized, okay, I could probably use this game to kind of gauge where girls are at in terms of like hooking up with me and my girl because it's just a silly thing that a girl could easily tell herself, oh, well it didn't really matter, I'm just playing this game, right? So it's like cheesy and lame it is is and my girl actually like, she's so annoyed when I'm like, let's play the ice game. She's like, oh, I know where this is going. But it's always with a girl who, you know, there's some girls that are just down and they're just like, yeah, like I'm into this, no sort of resistance, no shame. They're a sexual creature and they're cool with it. But then there's a lot of girls who have never done it before and who are, you know, they want to but they have all of that anxiety and shame around it. So just playing the ice game, like sitting the girls down and be like, all right, we're going to play this little game. You know, we're going to pass the ice. If you drop the ice, you have to take a shot or you can make it into like, if you drop the ice, you have to take off an article of clothing. So I've basically like bridged a lot of gaps by playing that silly game. And it's also a great game if you're just with a bunch of guys and girls and you just want to create like a sexual hookup sort of environment like the house party. You know, it's interesting to take it back to like when you were like some girl would start feeling up, your girl, we're back at the Abbey, right? What I think is so interesting about that dynamic and again, what, man, this can be so utterly frustrating when talking to guys in the seduction scene who don't get this. I mean, sexual escalation, fucking easy. You want to go out and bang somebody, it's not hard. I mean, if I go out in a club, I'll actually, you know, one out of 10 girls or whatever, you know, be able, whatever it is, right? You know, maybe I'll score, maybe I won't. If I go and sit in a cafe and just talk to somebody, it's like pretty much, I know I can get late. I mean, it's just such an easy recipe, moving the path of escalation. But if you've never been there and or you're not, you don't really enjoy it. You don't enjoy the pussy. You don't enjoy the love making. You don't enjoy the self expression. You don't enjoy the orgy. You don't realize that all it is is if you have a chick and you're both hunting for girls or whatever it is and you just go like, look at her, look at her tits. Like girls will feel each other's tits. And if you just go, man, do you like how that's making you feel? And they start saying that shit, like, yeah, I like it. Do you like, do you like those, like, tell me you like those tits? And then you say to the other girl, man, do you like that she likes that? That make you fucking hot, man. That's making me hard. Both of you guys, like what you're doing is fucking turning me on. If then they like you, man, that is the language of sex. You've now exchanged intent. And it's like, then you have to work logistics on how it's gonna fucking happen, which is a whole nother deal. But I mean, once you've done that, it's easy too. I mean, I would say, because everybody's always talking about threesomes, there's always these like fucking, this is how you frame her and the routine you do or all this fucking shit. Here's the deal, man. Get two people to like each other or multiple people to like each other. And then I don't bring up, you have to come back and fuck me. I say, well, come back to my room or come back to wherever we're staying, whether they know each other or not. And the door shuts behind them, we're good. You know, that's like, that's all that matters. It matters like, oh, you like her, you like, oh, that's hot, fuck. I think that's hot, but you think that's hot. We should hang out, we should party more, we should do whatever. And I don't even drink, so you take that out of the equation. It's like, it's so doable. I mean, it's a testament to you, like to be able to confidently just express yourself in that way. You know, most guys, there's no way they could pull that off. You know, just to be able to say like, oh my God, that's turning me on. Look at how she's touching you. And to say that in a confident way, where you're not like, oh, that's really hot. I'm getting really hot. Like, guys would just be way, most guys would just be way too nervous to be confident just delivering that sort of communication. I'll even say this, like, who I learned this stuff from was a porn guy that went by the California PimpNet video girls. And I knew him, I met him in like 2006 or 2007. And we actually did workshops together. I didn't get it. You know, I heard all this stuff, but he was like, oh man, Steve, you can watch this porn. It's still on today. He's still doing stuff and you know, but as soon as I, when I worked for Mystery Method way back when, as soon as I got my account, you know, as soon as I got Steve at the Mystery Method, I emailed that guy and I was like, dude, I'm a fan of your porn. Like what's going on? I think it's fake, but some of it's gotta be real. And like, he just, Steve was like totally cool. So we actually taught a couple of workshops in Vegas. So this, this porn dude that I was friends with, you know, he basically, man, he got a couple of chicks over and he was like, hey, fuck me in front of my friend. And I was like, well, this is weird. And he's like, Steve, just stick around. And they were like, well, I don't know. I don't know. And I just remember seeing how he worked was what made it clear for me is the, is that there was the sexual mind. Cause the whole time I'm like, well, wait a minute, these girls are like not cool with this. They're, they're cool with fucking you, but they feel they don't want to fuck me. And he's like, Steve, shut the fuck up, shut up. Like, let them get sexually aroused. Let them see you sexually. They don't know you sexually. They know you as this guy standing there. And so he started hooking up with them. And he's like, Steve, pull out your dick. And I'm just like, okay. He's like, just pull it out. And they're like, well, we're not going to fuck them. And he's like, just shut up, girls, just shut up. And he just had this way of working it and making it hot and making it attractive. And him actually saying like, look at him. He's fucking hard for you guys. Do you like that? Do you like that he's hard in that way? And I'm just like, how did I get myself in this weird situation in Vegas? Like, shit, I'm not telling anybody. I'm glad I sent that email, right? Yeah, right. So, but then, but then, you know, it switched. And they were like, come here, I want to fucking taste that. I want to compare, and they got all fucking into it. Then all of a sudden I'm, we're, there's four people in this room having sex and interchanging with the chicks and stuff. It was just such a cool, freeing experience. And after that, I really got it, that it was like this exchange that needed to happen. I like you, you like me, fuck. The way you smile is hot to me. That makes my fucking dick hard. The way you smell or the way you look at me and interact, that is like the most, God, I just think it fucking moved, man. God, it's like, fuck, I'm gonna need to go to the bathroom and fucking jerk off or something. And these weren't lines I was saying. It was like, wow, I like you on this level. But if you're taking it in an impersonal way, I have, as you say, the anti-rape dick, you know, the dick that I don't want. So I don't want to have a, and I would say this. I would say like, hey, you know, if you're, if there's some resistance, I'll just say, hey, let's stop. It's totally cool. Like I don't want to be making out or kissing with your fears. I want you to be you, but come here. Let's try and be you. And I just bring it right back to me. But I would say, man, for three sums, there's two things. One is really quick and it's like, get them into your place and shut the door behind them and get them to exchange sex with one another. So it's like, I think you're hot. That's hot. Let's do this fuck. Well, you guys can stay there and just make out. I'm gonna jerk off. And as soon as they see my dick or get involved in making me come, they'll be on that motherfucker. But the second thing I wanted to say was you brought up Germany is right before the 21 convention, 2011 in London, I went on this trip in Europe and I had these, this is a fucking awesome story. So I went backpacking with my buddy in Mexico a year prior to that. And I met these girls from Austria, right? And so we spent Christmas in a hostel together and we didn't hook up, but all we did was talk about sex. And I forget why we didn't hook up, but it just, it was kind of fucked up. Like it was Christmas. Everybody's on like mad drugs and it was just a weird thing. Anyway, so we became friends. So on Facebook and I said, hey, I'm going to Europe. Where should I go? So these girls were like, hey, come to Austria. We'll show you around. We've been talking to you the last year and a half or so. And so I went and I was like, all right, this is going to be cool. And in Austrians, not the most attractive people. I don't know if you, but some are. I've been to Vienna. I've been to Vienna, yeah. Not the most fun city either, but I was over there for a night. So I can't really judge. Vienna, it's a beautiful city, but it's not a fun city. And it's considered one of the more ugly cities, but when it comes down to sex, looks stop mattering so much. But anyway, we went to this party and dude, this is so fucking crazy, man. So this is all right before the 21 convention. It all ties into it, but we, I went to this party with them and then I wanted to visit a friend in Munich because I have a bunch of friends, like old pickup instructor coaches, buddies, and some dudes flew because they knew I was going to go to Munich, flew in and basically, this is how this like four day window happened. So I'm in Austria, partying with these chicks. They're like, hey, we're having a party on Saturday, come back to Vienna then. Okay, I'm going to Munich, it's Thursday. So, or I'm making up the days, but it's something like that. So we go there, I'm in Munich, meet up with my buddies and one of them's like, hey, I'm going to go to this FKK club, which is basically like a prostitute house, place like that. I'm like, I've never been to one of those, but I've always heard and people say the ones in Germany are like crazy. And he's like, dude, they are, come. So I go and it was an awesome experience. A lot of people don't talk about prostitution or whatever or have opinions about it, but there could be a lot of bad stuff and there's abuse or whatever. But man, I actually made friends with many prostitutes there, still talk to them via Facebook today. And they're not, to objectify somebody as a sex worker is one thing. But then to objectify them as having to have a suffering opinion and not a choice to get into that work I think equally is bad on whatever degrees. So anyway, had an amazing time there, have like mad, bad sex, get on Skype. Like then this is Friday, get on Skype. So we fuck all these chicks at the FKK club and then go home, get on Skype with my girlfriend. And this was one of the times where she was like hooking up with another dude and I'm like, let me fucking listen and got all like fucking crazy sexual and that. So I'm just tripping crazy, like in this like fluid ride of like crazy sexual experiences and like end up beating off on Skype over that with her. And like my dick is just raw at this point. And then go to Austria for this party. I'm like mad tired. You know, it's the Euro travel. You're just like on a fucked up schedule. I get picked up from the train station. Actually, that was an adventure in itself because we rented a car I hitched a ride with this group that was smuggling something that was really weird. And then basically get to Vienna. Somebody picks me up, one of the girls. We go to this party. It's a divorce party. So this chick's getting divorced, right? We go, we were partying, partying, partying, you know going to all these places, there's a bunch of chicks and there's four guys, right? There's 16 girls, four guys, including me. All the dudes are trying to like get their space in with the girls. And I'm just seeing it. I'm like, why is all this, there's 16 girls. Why are you guys fucking posturing? So hard, like chill out. So we go to this club, this nightclub and I just start letting loose. I'm not the biggest dancer, but I just start going crazy and everybody in Austria and in Germany sucks at dancing. So you're good if you aren't them. And so basically I just start dancing with them. Everybody starts making out man, we're in the club. Like we're all hooking up. The dudes, the three other dudes are sitting there pissed off, angry as fuck. Like, and I'm just like, dude, there's, I can only handle one at a time. Like, you guys are fucking idiots, but they took on this like position where they got all pissed. But the funny thing actually happened. So we hook up, actually I was pretty happy because this doesn't always happen. It's kind of like a PUA, whatever, but get some blowjobs in the club, all that sort of stuff. But I ended up going home only with one girl, which was cool. Spent the last like two days at her place and again it was like the most peaceful thing, just having sex, get on a plane, go to England, go to the 21 convention. My dick is fucking like destroyed, man, chapped and fucking just fucked up, man, just like totally worn out. And I remember I met James Marshall there and I'm like, dude, man, I'm having trouble walking. I'd like, it's a long story, but like, man, a day ago I had like, you know, there was just great like got blowjobs from like 16 different chicks and like ended up having sex a lot after. And he's like, hey man, I have this for you. He pulls it out of his pocket, right? He's like, he's got this like ointment. Of course he does, but it was just such a trip going from that level of sexual like adventure and like just craziness, the beauty, the insanity, the highs and low of it, then to this convention where everybody's talking about sex and trying to learn about it, but is behind this wall that's like unwilling to experience it. And it was just, that was like the biggest message for the guys there. It was like, if you could just take what you got from here and go out and fucking talk to somebody, man. You know, like I just had like a, you know, the times where I've had like crazy sex adventures like that is rare. I'm always having sex. It's easy to have sex with somebody. It's easy to get laid, you know, I feel. And it's not that hard, you know, people make it this difficult skill set, but these crazy superlative moments of like massive gang bang orgies that just happen don't always happen. You know, if you're not always living that lifestyle, it was like, man, but the best thing you could do is just go, go and fucking talk to somebody. Don't stand here in front of me and try and get all this information. Go and talk to somebody and experience something with them. So anyway, that's. That sounds like a good time in Central Europe. That's for sure. It was good. It was fucking awesome. But man, hey, closing words. We've gone on for a long time and talked a lot about crazy shit, but inner confidence, your Facebook group sounds awesome. What can guys do to get involved with you and, you know, what can they expect in return and, you know, their lives turning into? Yeah, well, I've really enjoyed all chatting about all this stuff because, you know, like you say, there's very few people that you could actually have these conversations with. Well, there's more now. And right, right, we gotta keep talking about it. But the, you know, for guys that are listening that are like, whoa, this is way too like over my head or whatever. I'm sure at one point you were there. I was there. Yeah. And as you just surround yourself with other guys that are doing this stuff, it'll just start to happen. And, you know, as you just, like you said, just talk to girls, talk to someone, get out there and do something. Don't just try to, you know, download a bunch of content that's not gonna get you anywhere. You know, you're lifeful. You know, know where life's gonna take you. But yeah, so if anyone wants to, you know, find out more about me or the programs I offer, just go to interconfidence.com. And I've got some free videos and a bunch of stuff on the site there. And if anyone wants to join the group, basically I interview them first. You know, it's a small group. I've only got like 60 guys in there. Like, I wanna keep it relatively small just because, you know, there's weird guys out there. Like I talked to this guy on the phone the other day and he said, I'm really looking for the eroticism. And I'm just like, what? What are you talking about? The eroticism? Like, what do you mean by that? He's like, my life isn't very erotic. And I'm just like, I don't know, man, but I gotta run. You know, it just wasn't a good fit for the program whatsoever. So it's, you know, I'm very careful who I let in there and who I don't because it's a good close knit group and guys will, you know, guys are themselves. Like it's not like this PUA group where guys hide behind their monikers and all that bullshit. So I'm really easy to get ahold of just shoot me an email, Robbie at interconfidence, R-O-B-D-B-I-E at interconfidence.com. And if you guys watch this and you haven't attended the 21 convention, fucking go. Because the dudes that you'll meet at the 21 convention are amazing guys. Like all the speakers are top notch and the guys who come in and participate, you know, the clients or whatever you want to call them, the participants. Awesome guys to meet and it's worth every penny to pay the admission versus just sit and watch it on YouTube. Like watching on YouTube, you can get some info but meeting the people there is a game changer. Yeah, actually, I mean, seriously, sitting down and talking with Robbie Cramer, Nick Sparks, James Marshall, or in fitness, I mean like Doug McGuff or Skyler, I mean, Skyler Tanner, Drew Bay. It's such a different experience to have them work with you. And even with Doug, he actually gave me a fitness plan. Very slight, but I remember talking to him at the convention and saying, hey, look, I got these blood pressure issues. These things are happening. This is what my diet's like. How would you change it? And he went off on this crazy Dr. Ran and said, you know, cut out these sugars, you know, accentuate these proteins. It was really cool, you know? And that was two minutes, but that changed, that was a massive change in my dietary and fitness plan and something that helped me, has helped me out with my entire life. Those are the types of interactions that you have. So thanks for bringing that up. I always try and like make the point like 21 Convention on YouTube, that's awesome. I mean, it's so awesome, but why aren't you at there in the seats interacting with these guys? I mean, it's such a, it's an awesome community. It is, and it's like whatever the cost is, even if it was 10,000 bucks, you meet one guy that like becomes your best friend or leads you to a business deal or becomes your wingman, like fucking worth every penny. So it always follows my mind, you know? Yeah, that's what I don't get because the speakers, I mean, it's the cream of the crop. There's no, there's no, there's no fat on this, but if we're going to talk paleo, there's a lot of fat on it, but there's just, there's just no, everything is refined, you know? It's the best of the best in men's perspectives in every category that you could imagine. And that's why I don't get, it's like, if you went to a TED talk, which if you watch those, I mean, give me a break. And then even in the TED events that they charge mad money for, they're like forced to promote in certain ways. And there's all this like crazy regulation on, and you just don't get that at a 21 convention. You get a face-to-face, you know, interaction with people. And it's just a tremendous experience. For sure. Well, looking forward to get it out there. It's like a month, just a little more than a month, right? Fuck man. Yeah, I'll see you there. And it'll be, it'll be awesome. I love that we can have this conversation about sex and banging and boning and all that sort of stuff. It's fucking awesome, man. There's very few people, very few people. I know, man. I'll just start a 21 convention orgy or something. Yeah. The special behind the scenes ticket. Hey man, Tampa, could happen. Yeah. It could. It could. More of the reason to be there. All right. Cool, man. Awesome, Steve. Yeah, I'll talk to you later. Great chatting, man. Hey, thank you so much for being a part of this podcast. I hope you really enjoy that. We were talking about some really intense stuff. I mean, we were taking sex to a different level. And as you can tell, I love talking about it. And man, it's one of the passions of my life. But the big passion in my life is how we as a group of men can move into the best expression of ourselves, man. And I really believe that we can do that. The 21 convention is our platform for that. And it's our voice for that. Support us on iTunes, support us on Stitcher, and please support us on YouTube. We really spread the message in a big way. And what I mean by support is subscribe to us, give us some likes, write reviews, get involved in our comment feeds, and man, let's build this discussion and interaction to be the ideal you. And of course, don't forget, sign up for the 21 convention, October 24th, 25th, 26th in Tampa, Florida. It's gonna be an amazing event. And I hope to see you there.