 Rwy'n gweithio, rwy'n gweithio i'r ffodus yw'r unigweithwyr. Wel, mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'n gweithio'r sessiadau, sy'n meddwl Paati Sánchez, sy'n gweithio'n gweithio ffodus ar San Francisco. Felly mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r perthynau, fel mae'n gweithio'r gweithio i'r gweithio'r zesuio'r wahanol yw'r cyfeirio ymddangos'r ffridd sessiadau neu ydych chi'n cael eu cyfnodol a chyfwm ni'n cyfnodol your online audience. And if you'd like to share any thoughts about today's webinar, or indeed any of our webinars or events on the socials, you can use the hashtag CIM events. Okay, so that just leaves me to introduce our guest speaker, Patty Sanchez. If you'd like to turn on your webcam, Patty, I'll pass things over to you and the floor is yours when you're ready. Great. Thank you all for joining me for what I think is a very timely topic, talking about virtual communication and how you can use it to connect with online audiences. And I think it's an important topic and a timely one because this is essentially where all communication is happening these days. No doubt about it. Well, virtual is here to stay. The research firm Gartner found in a study they did of businesses that 74% of businesses said they plan to go remote permanently, at least for one population of their employees. And they also went on to say that 75% of business meetings would be happening virtually in the future. So that means this is a pervasive form of communication that we have to get good at using. But the reality is that if we don't do it well, online communication can be draining and actually just suck the life out of people if it's poorly managed. So just think about it yourself. Have you ever felt online meeting fatigue? Have you been drained at the end of a day full of Zoom meetings or WebEx meetings? I mean, probably many of you have experienced that. And if you have, you're not alone. In an interview with CNBC television, the CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon, once said, I'm about to cancel all of my Zoom meetings. I am done with it. So even CEOs get sick of this form of communication. But we can't really blame the medium. It has more to do with us, how we use it and the environment in which we use it. And the reality is that people are distracted when they're online. When we're watching an online presentation, a virtual presentation, we're doing so in an environment that's very distracting. Or they're all kinds of other communications competing for our attention, things on our desktop that we might be drawn to looking at or reading like text messages or emails instead of paying attention to the speaker. And in one study, 54% of remote workers said that they were distracted while working at home. And that's just the number of people who actually admit to being distracted. So the real number is probably higher. And people are not only distracted, they're also disconnected. That means that people are feeling the lack of human presence, human relationship in the online world. The study by Buffer found that 20% of remote workers reported being lonely while working from home. That's one-fifth of people who are participating in online communication feeling isolated, which is sad. And it's something that we need to solve for when we improve virtual communication because it does take effort to engage. For all these reasons, there are online audiences are prone to distraction and disconnection and it's that much harder for them to stay focused on what you're saying to continue to pay attention rather than to pay attention to something else. And that means that it takes more effort on our part as well as speakers, as presenters to do what we have to do to keep those audiences attention to hook it and re-hook it throughout our virtual presentation. So what's really crucial is that we have empathy, empathy for our audiences. When we think about presenting in an online forum, giving a virtual or hybrid presentation, we have to remember them. We have to think about the environment that they're in, the difficulties they're experiencing, and try to create an experience that is better for them because empathy is really crucial for great communication. It is what makes the difference between good and bad communication, understanding an audience and giving them what they need. And this is the way that Duarte, the company I work for, thinks about empathy in presentations. Never deliver a presentation you wouldn't want to sit through yourself. So that's the first way to empathize with your audience is put yourself in their shoes, think about what this virtual presentation is going to be like for them. And that same rule applies to virtual presentations. You just don't want to give a presentation online that you yourself wouldn't want to sit through. It actually has to be better than an in-person presentation to really grab the attention of the audience and to keep hold of their attention all the way through. And a great presentation and a great virtual presentation stands on a solid foundation of communication. And that communication foundation starts with strategy, thinking about the audience and planning an experience that's going to be good for them. And once you've thought through the right kind of presentation to give in a virtual setting that will meet their needs, then you can think about the content that you're going to create. And the most engaging content uses story principles to hold an audience's attention. And then think about the visuals. How are you going to bring your messages to life with the things that people can see as you're presenting, but you have to think about it in multiple dimensions using all of the tools and canvas that's available to you with a virtual presentation. And then finally your delivery. As a presenter, as a speaker in this online environment, you really have to learn how to command that virtual room, how to hold the attention of the audience, how to make them feel your virtual presence as if they were in the room with you. Now, I'm going to talk about four keys to increasing virtual engagement today. The first is connection. This is about building a relationship with the audience. Next is interaction. This is how you engage them in dialogue with you during your virtual presentation. And then novelty. Novelty is something new and different that makes it more interesting for them. And then finally your delivery. How do you actually bring it all to life to really engage that audience? So starting with connection. One of the most powerful ways to build connection with other people is through stories because stories actually move people. And we know this now through research. In fact, fmri machines that are hooked up to people who hear stories can record all the activity that's happening in their brains. And what we can see is that stories engage in multiple parts of our brain at the same time because when you hear a story, you start to have sensations in your body. You experience emotions. You perceive information in a different way. And it also triggers memories that you might have of a similar experience as to the story that you are hearing. So because your brain is being lit up in so many different ways, it makes the information you're hearing through the form of a story more likely to be retained. And the other really powerful, effective storytelling is that it bonds us. It brings us closer together because when we hear a story, a chemical is released in our bodies called oxytocin. And oxytocin is known as the love hormone because it's what people feel when they are bonding with each other, like when a mother holds her child or a person interacts with their pet. And when we feel bonded to someone, we're more likely to like them. We're more likely to want to help them. And we're more likely to think like them. So that makes stories a really powerful persuasive tool. Now you might be asking, what do you mean, Patty, when you talk about a story? So we're all marketers. I'm sure you've experienced or used story in one way or another, but I just want a level set with a common definition of story for this purpose. So a story is information that has three acts, and the beginning is that first act. And in the beginning of a story, we meet a hero, somebody who's like a bull who's just trying to get through life or do their job, and they have a goal of some kind. But then something happens to them, what's called an exciting incident in the world of storytelling that thrust them on an adventure. It sends them outside of their comfort zone and into new territory. Now in the middle of the story, that hero attempts to achieve their goal, but they encounter obstacles. They run into roadblocks. They are challenged and tested and tried as they struggle to actually achieve their goal. But in the end of the story, often through the help of a mentor, the hero overcomes those obstacles and emerges transformed. They have new insight. They have learned a new skill. They've understood something about themselves or the world as a result in this experience that they've just gone through. And you can use a story and storytelling principles in your virtual presentation as well to make it more engaging and more memorable for your audience. So you can think about your virtual presentation as having a beginning, a middle and an end. But even within your virtual presentation content, you should chunk it up into small little bites that are easier for your audience to consume and to make sense of. So the cognitive load is lower on them, but it also just makes things more interesting. So chunks would be sort of like what I'm doing here today. I'm talking about the four keys to virtual engagement on that circle diagram, and I'm using that as a wayfinding device so that you can follow along with these little chunks of information and tips and techniques that I'm sharing with you. But there are some other ways that you can use storytelling in your virtual presentation as well. And first is just thinking about the information itself and how you share it, how you structure that information. So this teal line here is the information in your presentation, but there's a principle in storytelling called tension. Every great story has tension, and it's caused by a good thing happening and then a bad thing happening. And the tension comes up when the audience is waiting to see how that bad situation is going to get resolved. It puts them on the edge of their seats. But you can actually use that same kind of tension in your virtual presentation by contrasting opposing ideas, opposing information in your presentation. And this is something that my boss Nancy Duarte explained in her book called Resonate. And in it she described that you can create dynamic tension in your speech or presentation by contrasting the current state with the future state. So what she also called what is and what could be. And the current state is essentially the problem that your audience is experiencing. And then the future state is your solution to that problem. How are you going to resolve that issue for them so that they can be transformed in some way. So that's one way to use storytelling principles in terms of how you structure and shape the way you present your information. But there are four other ways or actually three other ways that you can include stories in a presentation. And the first is by using story as a unit of information. So tell a story at one point in your presentation from beginning to middle to end. For instance, the story of a customer who has used your product or solution, how they encountered a problem, your solution solved it and the transformation that they experienced as a result. But you can also take that same story and you can split it up into scenes that you use at different places in your virtual presentation. So for instance, you could take that same story of a customer and their challenge and just talk about the challenge in the beginning of your presentation. And that challenge inspired you to find a better way to solve that issue for the customer. And then later in your presentation, after you talk about your product or solution, then you can return to that customer story and talk about how they've achieved those same benefits, those excellent outcomes by using your product or solution. So it's kind of like a cliffhanger that makes things a little more interesting for the audience. And then the third way that you can use a story is as a thread, is sort of a red thread or through line in your presentation, which we often do in the form of a theme or a metaphor that sort of wraps everything together. So to give you an example of that, at Duarte, we're a communication consulting a training firm, and we have a big hairy audacious goal we launched a couple years ago, which is to transform millions of people into great communicators. And when we launched that goal to our employees, we talked about it as a moonshot. And we told the story of America's original moonshot when President John F. Kennedy challenged the government to create NASA and send people to the moon. And then sometimes later when we were communicating about our vision to employees and progress we're making toward it, we would tell just a little piece of a story, a scene from one piece of that moon mission program about, for instance, a challenge that the Apollo 13 program ran into as the astronauts were stranded in space when something went wrong in their vessel and they had to overcome that so they could come home. And then finally this whole idea of a moon mission and a moonshot has become a theme, a metaphor that we use to continue to talk to our employees about our goals and repeat progress that we're making toward those goals. And now our employees often will sign off their emails with to the moon and a little rocket emoji, which is super cute. But what it shows is that the storytelling made our vision and mission stick in their minds, which is a very powerful thing when you want to persuade people. So now I want to talk about another way that you can move your audiences in virtual presentations and that's with interactions. So interactions also build connections if you think about it when we have in person communication we have dialogue and conversation with each other but it's a little different in a virtual setting we have to plan those interactions more intentionally and build them into our content. And there are a few different ways that we can use interactions in virtual presentations. The first are what I call simple interactions. These are the things that take just a couple of seconds to do like to click a reaction emoji, or to maybe click a poll button multiple choice poll it's low effort for the audience and it gets them kind of warmed up and participating. Then there are the moderate interactions. These take a little bit more effort for the audience, and they're a little bit more risky for them because people have to put themselves out there more to share their ideas or thoughts. This would be for instance when you ask people to come off mute and ask a question, or to maybe type a question or an answer into the chat box. And then finally, there are complex interactions. These interactions also take more work. They're probably the hardest of all for the audience and they take more work for you to manage. But they're also the deepest kinds of interactions because they can really build connection and intimacy between audiences. For instance, when you send them into breakout rooms to have a dialogue with each other or co create something together on a digital canvas. Someone will share with you some examples of these sorts of interactions. And one of these is from our internal training we do at Duarte. We do a lot of training on communication, but we also, for companies and brands, but we also train our employees on how to communicate with each other. And one of the tools that we use is a psychometric tool called SDI. And when we host internal training sessions for our employees to teach them about their own SDI type, we give them a virtual background that they can add into their zoom to show others what their SDI type is. And that's the role colors. So people can immediately see, oh, I'm a red. Oh, I'm a blue. I'm a blue green. I'm a red bling red blue green or I'm a hub, which is all three colors. And it's a quick way for people to get to understand each other and we did all the works we gave them the backgrounds. Now another more moderate interaction is asking people to have some interaction in the chat. And so in our internal all teams meetings that happen monthly, we open up with a ritual we call a giraffe formation, which is an affirmation but we call it a giraffe formation because the giraffe is our company mascot. And so we ask people to tell a story about somebody that did something great for them, one of their colleagues, and come off mute and share that story and then pretty soon their chat is just on fire with other people adding affirmations and add a boy is out of girls in the chat for that person or sharing other stories and it really gets the conversation going and in a really sweet way. And then the more complex interactions can involve storytelling. And so I want to share with you an example of a complex interaction we do at an internal event that we call story fest. Story fest is basically a cultural event that we do to use storytelling to help our employees get to know each other, feel affection for each other and just to model what we teach. And so speed stories is one of the rituals we do at that event where we essentially send our employees into rooms, virtual rooms to tell stories to each other and it goes very quickly. So it begins by sending people into breakout rooms and then the moderator will push a prompt into every virtual room. And this is an example of a prompt. When you were little, what job did you imagine you would have when you grew up? It's pretty deep, but people only have two to three minutes to answer that question and it's amazing to see how quickly people do get deep and how much they learn about each other and feel connected to each other through that experience of storytelling. And this is what one of our employees said about that event. They said, I didn't think I could form a connection with near strangers so quickly, but I feel like I did. And it made me care even more deeply for the people here, which is a really profound effect from just one little dose of storytelling. And that's something that sociologists call communal effervescence. It's this fizzy feeling that people get when they are a part of an experience that brings them together and lifts them up. So connection and interaction can help you engage your online audiences, but there's another way which is with novelty. And novelty is essentially something new that we experience in our environment. And our brains are actually wired to notice novelty because it's how we protect ourselves from threats. If you think about it, you see something moving out of your corner of your eye, your head whips over to see what that is. It's how we protect ourselves from lions and tigers and bears, so we've evolved to pay attention to changes in our environment. And anytime you change something in your virtual presentation, it's going to cause your audience to look up, pay attention more. And it has another benefit, which is that novelty actually creates good feelings. What researchers in the education space have found is that when students are exposed to novel things, new ways of explaining an idea or new ways of learning, it releases dopamine, which is the feel good chemical. That's what we, our bodies are flooded with when we taste good things, we listen to good music. And so new and novel, surprising things kind of peak our curiosity and make us feel good things. So you can inject variety and novelty by doing things that people don't normally experience in your presentations. And we call this novelty effect, a Duarte, the star moment. And that stands for something they'll always remember. When you're making your virtual presentation, think about that moment or moments that you really want them to remember. And how can you deliver them in a different way that stands out, that catches their attention and holds it. So there are a couple ways that you can do that. Add novelty to your virtual presentations. One is by using technology because that's what this platform gives us. And that's the coolest thing about virtual communication, virtual presentations is the tools that are available to us that let us do things we couldn't do when we're in person, face to face. And then we can also use visual variety, just new designs, fresh and unexpected designs to entice and engage the audience. So as an example of technology that you can use, I'm showing you an image here of one of our creative directors at Duarte, Ryan Orcut. And this is from a presentation he gave once about creativity and teaching people how to think visually. And he did it using something that's called a light board. It's like a white board, but it's lighted and it's basically a big pane of glass that's specially designed. You stand behind it and you use colored markers to draw on it. And it's just kind of fresh and unexpected. And it's not exactly easy to use, which is why you're not seeing me do it today because I haven't yet mastered writing and drawing backwards. But it is a very fresh kind of way to present ideas to an audience and even just the idea of sketching instead of showing pre-designed slides feels fresh and unusual. But there are other sorts of tools that you probably already have at your fingertips, but may not understand all the potential of. So, for instance, presentation software applications like PowerPoint and Keynote now incorporate the ability to embed video as an object on your slide. So this is video of one of my colleagues, JB, at the office, and this is a snapshot from one of her presentations where she was explaining something and words were popping up all around her video on the screen here. And that is just another function available to you in PowerPoint and Keynote, where essentially it takes your camera feed and you create an object on your slide and it feeds the video of you presenting into that space, into that design. And what's cool about that is not only is it a little unexpected, it's unlike video on one screen and slides on another screen like we're doing today, but it also lets the speaker interact with the slide content in a new way and it almost makes you like a weather person, you know, reacting to content as if you're presenting weather on a map. And it's also just novel and fresh. But if you don't want to try using new technology or you have limited budget, you can also just use slide design to add more visual variety to your virtual presentations. So this is an example of simplified version of slides that are in our template that we made for ourselves at Duarte. And what it shows you is that you can create different slide layouts for different types of information. Not all content needs to be presented in bullets or text. You can use big statement slides. You can use just a diagram. You can pull out a quote and make it big. You can have text in columns instead of in bullets. You can design your graphs in a way that really pop. And those are all different slide layouts, but they're all consistent still using similar fonts and colors that are still part of a family. So they communicate our brand in the same way, but there's more visual variety for the audience. Now I want to wrap by talking about that fourth key to engagement, which is your delivery. Because at the end of the day, you can design all your slides, you can write all your content, but it comes down to you speaking those words for your audience and really bringing your ideas to life for them. And so I want you to think about your virtual presentation almost as if you're filming a movie or a TV show and you are the director. And what you see through the camera lens is what your audience is going to see. And one of the ways they can be more intentional about how you deliver is by using something called the rule of thirds, which is a concept used in film and photography to compose images that are visually pleasing. And so what it does is it overlays an imaginary grid three by three over the scene. And what you want to do is make sure that you are in the center of that frame where those lines intersect because that's where your audience is going to focus. And then you want your face to be in that upper third, especially your eyes, not down too low, not up too high. You want to make sure that you're centered in the frame so that your audience is really seeing all of you, but also your hands should be up higher in that frame. So if you use gestures, your audience will be able to see them. And once you start thinking about your virtual presentations, the way a director thinks of movies, then you can think about how you want to curate the scene, create that set behind you that is going to reinforce key messages or reinforce your brand and not create distraction. So when I go to the office, I make sure that what is behind me when I'm presenting is curated. So in that screenshot there, I've got the book presenting virtually off to the side and a little door to giraffe, just as an Easter egg in the scene, but I do the same here when I'm at home as well. You've got my books behind me and the color palette of things on my walls of all hangs together because I want it to visually reinforce my brand and our brand. And finally, the most important things to work with as you're delivering in your virtual presentation is to remember that you yourself are part of the message, that your face and your gestures and your voice are all part of the story for the audience. And you want to make sure that you're using them to advantage. And with that face, it's important, most important to make eye contact with that camera lens because the camera lens is the eye of the audience. So you want to stay focused on that camera lens and make sure that you're performing for it, but also be aware of your facial expressions. Use your eyes and your mouth to convey the emotion that you want your audience to feel, but also your gestures. If you are a hand talker like I am, make sure that your hands are up high, but also that you're very intentional about the ways that you use your hands to either amplify the emotions that you're expressing or to actually convey information, make a shape or measure distance. Those are ways that your hands also can help bring ideas to life for your audience and create a greater sense of you being present with them. And then finally, your voice. Audiences have told us that they most like listening to presenters who use vocal variety. And vocal variety just basically means variance, varying your pitch, which is how high or low your voice will go, the volume, how loud or how soft your voice will go, and also the pace. Are you speaking really quickly or sometimes do you slow down? And all of those forms of variety are going to make that virtual presentation more interesting for your audience. And there are ways that you can set up your technology, especially if you're presenting at home to make it easier for you to stay connected with the audience. So this is an example of how our facilitators and presenters at Duarte set up their home office and mine is exactly the same as this. I've got a laptop, I've got a secondary monitor and I've got a webcam up there at the top. And if I use notes there down below that webcam so that I can stay focused making eye contact with the audience without having to look away and down at my notes. Now we've got some resources for you that you can refer to that will help you remember to stay connected to interact well with the audience to use novelty and to polish your delivery to make it a really engaging experience. And it's important to do that. If you master this medium, you can really move people, move people in far away places. You can reach and move more people than you ever could within person presentations. So it's a very powerful medium and we want to help you get better at it. So in addition to a virtual presentation checklist, which you'll be able to download. You can also learn more about the course that we offer called presenting virtually does an online self based course you can take to learn how to do all the things that I've talked about here today. And if you go to Duarte.com resources or scan this QR code, you'll receive some additional resources that will help you be a better communicator, a better online communicator. So I thank you for joining me today. I hope that you found these tips and techniques helpful to become a better virtual presenter. And I look forward to taking your questions. Thanks Patty. That was absolutely really, really fascinating, great session. So we'll head over to the Q&A session. We've already received some really good questions to get us underway, but please do continue to post your questions and we'll get through as many as we can in the next 15 minutes or so. And just a little reminder that if you would like to comment on the socials about today's webinar, then you can use the hashtag CIM events, which we've just popped up on the screen again for you. So one of the first questions which I thought was really interesting was how do you handle presenting to a mixed audience of both online and in person attendees and what should presenters do differently for that kind of hybrid presentation format. It's a great question because that is definitely happening more. We're seeing more hybrid events where we have an in person audience and an online audience, especially for large events, right? And that is challenging for the speaker because they really need to engage both of those audiences. And I would say that you should defer to or lean toward that online audience. You don't want to ignore the people who are in the room, but you have to divide your attention a little bit from time to time, scan the room, make some eye contact with people there, but that should be the smallest portion of the time. You want to make sure that you continue to make eye contact with that camera so that the online audience doesn't feel left out. Essentially, if one person is online, then the entire meeting or presentation is online, so you want to make sure that those online audience members don't feel like second class citizens. It's important to make them feel included too. Brilliant. Thank you. And what is the biggest challenge that you faced with the shift in virtual communication? Well, I started giving a lot more pre-recorded presentations and I found that it was challenging to have my energy be high when I'm talking just to a camera and not having any interaction with the audience. So I had to rehearse in practice basically feeling connected to feeling an emotional attachment to a little black dot. That was probably the toughest thing. Learning the latest features of the virtual platforms takes a little bit of time as well. I always have to make sure I've got the latest Zoom update downloaded or WebEx update downloaded. You just have to build in a little more preparation time than maybe you're used to within person presentations. Great. Thank you. And on that theme of learning the new technologies behind it equally, moving towards more online and virtual presentations, what would you say are the qualities that a presenter or facilitator needs to be great at virtual presentations and things that they can do to be able to get better? Yeah. Well, I think it helps to be an empathetic person to not be too egotistical but be able to put yourself in the shoes of your audience and remember that you're doing this for them. So I think that's one quality that presenters can work on spending time thinking about your audience and what matters to them and curating the interactions in a way that are going to really draw them out. Because I think presenters that are most comfortable in person, people who love to prowl the stage, for instance, they also struggle with adapting to this online environment because sometimes they just have trouble staying in the frame. I've seen presenters who are presenting in an online setting still actually move outside of the frame and goodness it makes it hard for the audience to stay connected and for that experience to be the best it can be. So you've got to adapt yourself to this medium. Great. Thank you. And how would you say with regards to engagement you said how important that is? But how would you advise any presenters where they've got an audience that might be particularly quiet or not very forthcoming with the live Q&A or feedback or anything like that? Is there any advice that you would give or anything that you've found that works quite well to improve that? It's something I think every presenter has struggled with in the virtual medium that moment when you say, alright, does anyone have any questions? And then there are none. Or people are reluctant. Who knows the answer to this? Why don't you share your thoughts on that topic and then it's just crickets? And that is human nature. I think the way that I think about it is when you're asking people to go off mute in a virtual environment or to interact, it's almost like you're a speaker on stage and you're asking the audience to come all the way up through the crowd, come stand next to you on the stage inside the spotlight and ask their question. So it's very intimidating. And the way to overcome that is to include smaller, easier kinds of interactions in the beginning. That's one of the ways that you can warm an audience up is do something very small in the very beginning, first five, 10 minutes of your talk to warm them up and get them used to accustomed to this idea that you're going to be calling on them or that you're going to want them to participate. So ask them to put their location in the chat. And you know, as you're welcoming people into the room is a way to sort of prime that pump so that people begin to get comfortable with interacting. And don't ask, you know, open into questions that are too big and complicated. Ask a simpler question. How many of you have felt online zoom fatigue, right? The simpler we keep it, the more safe it feels for people to interact because a lot of times people don't want to get it wrong. Fantastic. Thank you. And another point that you mentioned during your presentation was keeping things kind of new to keep everyone's attention. But how would you be able to advise presenters when they're tied into a corporate template to be able to keep things fresh and new? And so to be able to keep the audience's attention levels high when they've got to stick to a kind of corporate presentation template. Yeah, I hear that frustration a lot from marketers who for good reason want to create consistency with all their brand communication. And so they invest a lot of energy in creating these standard presentation templates, but they can start to create that sea of sameness like I was talking about earlier. But one way around that is with the idea of slide masters and an experienced and talented presentation designer will know how to create them for you in a way that essentially develops several different slide types that are still working within your brand, but create more visual variety. And so they'll usually start by doing an audit asking to see all the different kinds of slides you use in different situations. They'll identify patterns across those different situations and then use that to define the master set of slide types that they can create and build into your template, but it's still consistent, but make things a little fresher and more interesting for the audience. Fantastic. Thank you, Patty. And probably the last question was one that I thought was really interesting, not necessarily just focusing on the presentation, but would you say the way that you dress matters for online presentations as it would going to a face to face meeting? Yeah. Well, certainly your wardrobe can communicate something about you and probably the typical way that we think about our wardrobe is what sort of level of attire are we choosing to and doesn't fit the occasion. Casual business casual, that sort of thing. And that still applies, but there were extra sort of challenges with your virtual communication that you have to be aware of. Some cameras don't love lots of busy patterns or shiny fabrics are not going to render really well on a camera, a video camera, as well as noisy fabrics and noisy accessories. I've had to learn this the hard way. I love dangly earrings, but the microphones can sometimes pick them up, especially if you're wearing earbuds or if you've got zippers on your jacket, a cool leather jacket I like to wear, but I can't wear it during virtual presentations because the zippers start jangling and pretty soon everybody's hearing it and the audio is so high quality that is picking up the tiniest sounds. So just be apathetic to your audience. Make sure that you're not wearing something that's going to distract them or cause unnecessary noise. Just save those earrings for dinner out. That's brilliant. There's so many things to think about. There's so much useful information. Thanks Patty. Unfortunately, I think that's all we've got time for all for our webinar today, but I would like to say a very big thank you to Patty for delivering an absolutely brilliant presentation. I would also like to thank the CIM Greater London Group for organising the webinar, which we really hope you've enjoyed and been able to gain some handy tips to take forward and apply to your next online presentation. So that just leaves me to say a final thank you to you for joining us today. Take care everyone and we look forward to seeing you again soon.