 Brassica Theater Company, and Sharon Jensen, who's come in from New York, am I right? Yes, and is the Executive Director of the Alliance for Inclusion in the Arts. And so that's my quick introductions of our panelists. And I'm going to, I'll, I'll provide a little bit about my own theater company I should say. I'm the Artistic Director of Albany Park Theater Project up in the Northwest Side. We are a youth theater company in one of the most culturally diverse, one of the three most diverse communities in the United States, actually. And we tell predominantly immigrant stories. And one of the things that we do with our youth there, often an exercise we do a lot is an exercise called I Come From. And I always like to start a conversation with getting a sense of where we come from. On this particular arena stage in Washington DC where I worked starting in 1988. I was there from 1988 to 1992. And that was really the, I think, the early days of the formal non-traditional casting movement in this country. And in 1990, I was at a post-show conversation at Arena Stage after a performance of Our Town. And it was a, that production embraced non-traditional casting. And I remember an audience member standing up in the post-show conversation and saying, first of all, that he was very distracted throughout the performance because he didn't understand how there were African Americans in Grover's Corners, New Hampshire. So that was distracting enough. But then he was very troubled by the fact that he just could not get over the fact that Doc Gibbs was white and Mrs. Gibbs was white, but they had an African American daughter. And that that just was running through his brain through the whole performance. And so the response to that Jeffrey Thompson is the actor who played, who played Howie Newsom, the milkman. And he was a large African American actor. And he stood up and he said, well, look who was delivering the milk every day. And, you know, I thought it was a humorous, but, you know, a humorous, but also on point response, which was kind of challenging, you know, challenging someone between either, you know, which makes you more uncomfortable trying to take an imaginative view of what, of Grover's Corners or, you know, miscegenation, right? And, but then right after that, a couple of comments later was a school matinee. It was a, well, it was a Wednesday matinee. So the audience also had a lot of young people and a young, you know, maybe I was a 10, 12 year old African American girl that stood up and said, well, you know, I don't know what Grover's Corners looks like because I've never been there. And, but I want to say that I liked the girl, I liked the woman who played Rebecca because she's pretty like my sister. And, you know, it was a pretty potent meaning. And I guess I set this up because in part it's where I come from. But also because, you know, those of us on the stage and those of us, I think, I know there were a bunch of Chicago theater people in the room as well. We've certainly been, a lot of us have been thinking a lot about these questions for, you know, for at least 25 years in some formal ways. But I guess I'm curious for those, you know, to hear a little bit from those of you who are out there, especially those of you who are, who are maybe Victory Garden subscribers or audience members who were brought in here, you know, by attracted to the show, to the performance tonight. A little bit of, you know, kind of where you come from on this issue and how some of the questions that I, that I, that I was thinking about kicking this off with are, you know, how important is it to you as you think about going to the theater to have a variety of stories told, to have stories that come from different places and represent different people. How much do you give thought to what Grover's corners say should or shouldn't look like? And, you know, how much do you think about some of these issues that we spend a lot of time thinking about, you know, like the opportunities that exist and for, for actors of different ethnicity and, and I wonder if there, you know, if there are folks who would, who would give us a sense, who would maybe, you know, want to start us off by, by sharing some of their own thoughts before I give it to our panel so that we can hear who's with us tonight. Wonderful. I always love it when there is somebody who's bold and will do that. And thank you for using the microphone. Everybody who knows me knew it would be me. So my name is Linda and you might as well say I'm from Chicago. I've been here more than two thirds of my life. So I come from a variety of places on this issue. And tonight's show comes from one place, which is different from what you're talking about. And so the first thing I want to say is that for the period of my life when I was involved in Christianity, I collected creches where the family of Jesus was not all white and children's stories, an Eskimo story about Jesus where the story is the same story, but it's in Alaska and South American, etc. So I've always thought that stories could be told and needed to be told for the people and from the people that are hearing them and making them. That's one. Two. Something that I noted tonight in the playbill was in the introduction from Che. And he said that not only do the minorities of our world need to have an increasingly present presence at the table with their shows and with their stories, but we need to realize that their stories are our stories. And I'm speaking here as the obviously white person, or at least presumably that I am. And I think tonight's show did that. It didn't put, let's say African American and white people in the call center. We had Indian or South Asian people in the call center, I think in the casting. It didn't have to be that way, but it was. But obviously the story is about the entire world and certain lines very specifically. And that's a challenge to me because my story has been to try to ensure that I'm at a multiracial table, a multiethnic table, and that we can all hear and understand each other. And so this is a new step for me to think about someone other than the African American character in the play being of African American being casted with an African American play. It's new for me. And I'm sure not alone. So that's a starting couple of starting. Thank you. Thank you very much. Are there other folks who want to to share any of their own starting places with us where they come from as we as we start this conversation? Yes, wonderful. Thank you. Bobby as Chicago, most of my life except for traveling, part of which was in India. I've been an ESL teacher for 20 years. And I do think that it was crucial that we understood that those cast of this play was were Indian people in India because that's the heart of this particular story. I've seen students from 57 countries come here as children or adults and have many different experiences, some by themselves, some with family. I've watched them change. And I think that today, the brilliance of what we saw was that the mirror was turned around. And we were watching people who pretended to be Ross. And you were brilliant. And your heartbreak of not being Ross and all of those things. And in this particular piece of drama, I think that that was crucial. Now, could it have been in the Philippines if they had gotten the contract? Yes. But what I believed it, if I was talking with my Chicago accent, could you know, consistently? No, it had to be that people who lived in a different culture were being forced to pretend that they lived in our culture so that the people who were spending too much money and doing all these things in Chicago. And it was very interesting as Chicagoans for us and funny just to hear the Chicago references to see our society turned around. And then also to see the heartbreak of them wanting the things that we had that have gotten us into so much trouble. And I'm sorry, I'm going to mispronounce your character's name. But you remember how much nicer it was in many ways, despite horrible things like malaria. I'm not trying to, you know, change any of that. When things were easier, like I remember going to Marshall Field as a little girl. And that was so much fun. But oh, there were no African American people there when I was seven. Why? They weren't allowed downtown. So there's a million things that we could talk about here. The other thing I wanted to say as somebody who loves to read and loves theater is just give me a good story. I don't care where it is or who's in it. It just has to be a really good story. And if it's a play, well acted. So those are my two bits of information. Thank you. That's really wonderful. And I think these are a couple of good thoughts to start us off with. And I think this notion of, you know, theater is of course in so many ways all about pretending, right? It's all about representation. It's all about playing other. And one of the things I love about my work in theater is that, you know, we get to represent the world as it is, but also the world as we'd like it to be. And I think this notion of pretending to be of another culture is part of this, you know, gets us into some of the thorny territory that we're talking about tonight. And I think one of the things that for Victory Gardens initiated this conversation was a recent, you know, Chicago dust up over a production, a particular production of Pippin. And, you know, Kamal, I think, you know, you've had a lot of thoughts about that. I wonder if you would, you know, kind of, in some ways that's the elephant in the room. And, you know, if you would kind of give us some of the context on that as a way of, you know, as a way of sort of framing some of the ways that we think about this issue of pretending and culture. Well, to start, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I guess I recently wrote an article talking about culture and saying, can you own culture? You can't own culture, right? I mean, it's to be shared. And so I thought it was an amazing idea when I heard Pippin, a Bollywood spectacular, that great idea. Some questions about it, you know, Charlemagne? Okay. And then I started seeing some emails flying around from people that are associated with theater company and friends. And they were very disturbed by things they were hearing about the show. And I'm like, okay, then I saw promo stills. Then I got a little bothered. They were, they were just, it didn't set right. And there was no context. So I saw a lot of losty people with red dots on the heads and turbans and, you know, 1950s Indian clothes, said, okay, still, let's keep an open mind. Then we went and saw the show. And so what I saw, and this is, I guess, for me, the issue, the issue is not so much can somebody take a iconic musical or iconic play and put it in Bollywood or have influence of Bollywood or whatever. The issue is cultural representation and authenticity. And if you're going to deal with, if you're going to be influenced by Bollywood, for example, right, then why and how does it forward the story you're trying to tell? And in this case, unfortunately, in my opinion, I don't think it really did much justice to the play. I have one very specific example. So Charlemagne is standing in the church preaching about the infidels with a six foot Ganesh being projected behind him as he's wearing his turban. And he's talking about the infidels and India in 10,000 years of history has never invaded another country. So ironic paradox right there. Two, you're talking about the infidels, the Muslims, and this is a Christian conqueror. And so I mean, again, just doesn't make sense. And my issue is it was this. There was a lot of talent on that stage. There was money spent on the production. It was actually a fine production, you know, if you ignored certain things. But there's amazing resources in a city like Chicago that are available to you to bring authenticity and cultural representation. I'm not even saying you had to cast these actors as brown. I'm not even going that far. I mean, it would be nice. But at least be accurate in what you're displaying. So that's that to me was the issue and the elephant, so to speak. And there's been subsequent issues around other plays. But I think that's a so I think one of the thank you. And so one of the issues for sure that we're talking about tonight is this issue of accuracy of cultural representation and authenticity. Yeah. What are some of the other issues on the table when we start talking about about playing right? Anyone on our panel? What are some of the other key issues? If you were saying earlier, you were you were talking about, you know, 1980s and and and auditioning with with Jackie Taylor and employment, right? Right. I think the first the first time that we had to really deal, I think as a theater community in a major, major way with race and what they call non traditional casting, they try to call it colorblind casting, but everybody sees color, so you can't tell that lie. So they had to make it a little more PC and they called it non traditional, which I feel don't understand today. But when we began here in Chicago in the 70s, I remember Pat Bowie, myself, there was Jackie Taylor, who so many of you know now as a producer, she has her own theater on the north side. And I remember we would go to audition in the late 70s and 80s at the Goodman continually and constantly and be turned away constantly because no matter that I, we all had degrees from schools and at that time, it was still the Goodman School and now it's called the theater school. Well, I graduated from the Goodman School. So with all of this training and all of this stuff that I prayed and hope that I could be anybody I wanted in this very liberal art that I thought I was coming. I found there was no liberty. Because no matter how good I was, and I knew I had to be better at my craft than the average, you know, blonde hair, blue-eyed girl standing in the room next to me, I wasn't even seen. Forget even trying to portray what I wasn't even seen. And I remember Jackie Taylor, we'd never gave up. We would we would kind of meet each other and Cheryl Linton-Bruce was there too. We kind of met each other after a while as a means of just having coffee and talking to each other. Because we knew we'd all be at the Goodman for this one audition and one none of us getting a job. Well, we are auditioned, girl. Let's get some past. That was the way it really was. And I remember Jackie Taylor standing there going, she said one day, and I quote, excuse me, y'all, on this camp, she said, fuck this shit. And she said exactly that. She said, I am tired of these white folks not giving me a chance to do what I want to do. I just want to be an artist. She said, I ain't coming to no more damn auditions at the Goodman. Just fuck it. That's what she said. And we were like, oh, it's going to be okay. I'm gonna find me some money. I'm gonna write me some shows. I'm gonna get me a theater. I'm gonna cast it black and one day white folks gonna be working for me. And as we stand here in 2013, she got a $10 million theater on Clark Street, and white folks are working for her. So we're done. But I say, this is a new story. And I know how it feels to not be representing it. You know, I did one of the first things here in Chicago called the Wiz at the Marriott Lincoln Shire. You saw I'm reaching back now. And I remember that we were doing this non colorblind casting, we put it in the equity book, and you better look it up and give us liberty. We're gonna, yeah, right. So you're gonna do the Wiz at the Marriott. We were like, well, that time the wind blew the other way. And Dorothy was white. And we said, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. That's not the way that's supposed to be. They said, but you said the casting should be colored blind. So we're going to do that. It works both ways. And that's a part of this argument that we're going to constantly have is that it does work both ways. It can't always work the way you lean the way you want to. So Susan Moniz was just amazing. She kept saying, I'm not white. I'm Portuguese. I'm Portuguese. Nobody care. You know, and it was a great production. But we ended up with a production that was, you know, that had probably had definitely had like, I think 10 or 12 African Americans and the rest were, you know, of different ethnicities. But it's still a problem. It's always been an issue. So this is not new. It's kind of like this resurfacing resurfacing because we now have other diverse groups of folks. We didn't back then we weren't dealing with a lot of Asian actors that are in the business and Indian actors that were in the business and Latino actors. So I welcome you all to this story. This is a struggle that the African Americans have been fighting since the 50s. Because you know, when you talk about James Ordo, when you're talking about going to arena, I mean, I recently did a production at arena of Oklahoma, where Molly Smith, the artistic director decided to take a new look at Oklahoma. And I was very proud when she called me and said, we're going to do Oklahoma, which is the right way you're talking about. So I want you to know it can't work. We're going to do Oklahoma like the history books said Oklahoma was. And if we do that, we know that this territory is indigenous to Native Americans, African Americans, Asians, people from Indian descent, because they sold wares there, because that land was not owned by whites, because it was still part of the territory. It wasn't a state of America. What a brilliant idea for her to actually do research, which is what you're saying. I'm just saying, you know, this is the struggle, we don't do a lot of research. But for her to research it, and actually go and say, huh, I can have an African American Lori. And I can have a Mexican, Mexican American curly. And I can have Asians as time and because they actually exists in that period, in that time, they did work together. And I think sometimes when we do those things, and we began to make those changes, which I agree with you, if we're culturally aware, and we're accurate about what history tells us, and where we actually are, then it does become a wonderful experience in the theater for us. And not just y'all giving a bunch of people a color job. Just a problem. So I think that Sharon wants to jump in here and then we'll come to the leap in and then we'll come to the casting director. I've been with an Alliance for Inclusion in the Arts, which was originally the non-traditional casting project. So I can tell you exactly what that meant and was and so forth if you just historically if you want to know. Well, I will say, in non-traditional casting, there was a wonderful director named Hal Scott, who you probably know who's God rest his soul, but who shortly after the non-traditional casting project started, which it started in 1986. And I think the term actually began by what was then the Ethnic Minorities Committee of Actors. That's right around 1981. But it was the organization which I now run and have been running for almost 24 years, which I think really put, gave it sort of its currency in doing and I know the League of Chicago theaters here sponsored a very important region of symposium on non-traditional casting. But Hal Scott defined, he set out four guidelines of kinds of non-traditional casting. Now, this was done before I came along, but they were societal, meaning something you do in society and that you play conceptual, meaning that it gives a particular resonance to a role cross cultural where you take the whole culture of the play and transport it to another culture. Or quote unquote colorblind, which I always thought was unfortunate at best, a terrible term. And that was quote unquote casting an actor without a necessary regard for race, culture, ethnicity, disability, gender. So, so, so that's what non-traditional casting meant. And what non-traditional casting was supposed to do was to help to begin to right some of the wrongs that have been made with respect to very systematic patterns of exclusions that had taken place with very large groups of actors that a population that included African American that included Latino that included Native American that included South Asian that I know I'm leaving some and East Asian and Asian Pacific American actors, and so on. And as well as actors with disabilities, which we also do a lot of disability. So that to us is a very important issue as well. So it was never ever ever meant or intended to justify casting a Caucasian actor in a culturally specific or a disability specific role. And the feeling the position of the organization has always been that to do so is a misappropriation of the term in the practice. So just to clarify that kind of history that and I know people often say, well, it you said the way the wind blows, it should work both ways. But it was never a sense that it should work necessarily both ways, only except when there is when something in the play turns on the issue of race, culture, ethnicity, disability, gender, whatever, then obviously, you're going to have very specific cultural casting. And whether that is Irish, whether it's Asian, South Asian, whatever it may be, our sense is also that there is a very healthy theater ecology that there's room for everything. There's no one way to do anything. And there was a marvelous article that came out in, in what was then Newsday of July 1 1990. I don't know. I remember the date, but it was either Jules Pfeiffer or John Guers who said, it's a play. It's not a documentary. So, so this is a there are lots of aspects and sides to this issue. And I just want to jump to one thing. I know I'm talking about you, but you would talked about it's the elephant in the room. Well, I want to suggest that it's a herd of elephants. And that they're in many rooms around the country. And it's not in Chicago. It's not just at the theater that you mentioned. It's on Broadway. It's, it's, it's, it's and it's international as well. I mean, it this these issues are going on all over the place. And there's a speaking of a marvelous organization that is only been around for about a year and a half. And I'm sure you know, or do you call the Asian American Performers Action Coalition in New York. And they did. It's a it's a group of Asian Pacific and South Asian actors and these Indian actors who did a very thorough report of all of the productions that have been done in on Broadway for five years. And at the 15 or 18 major nonprofit theater for over five year period. And they found that Asian American, whether it was South Asian, Asian American, roles comprised 1.5% on Broadway. And if you looked at the nonprofit staff, that it was 3%. So that the average over five years was 2%. Even though in New York City, Asian Americans represent almost 13% of our population. And I also know that in Chicago, almost 33%, at least in Chicago city, almost 33% of your population is African American and 5.5% is is South Asian and Asian American and so forth. And it's, it's clearly there is, you know this better than anybody because of the incredible work that you're doing, that there is such a reason to tell the stories of all of us. And to, and I'll just say this one last thing about our organization. We believe that in full inclusion in theater, film and television, and that that should reflect the full diversity of our society. And furthermore, that every artist should be considered on his or her individual merits. And that the stories that are being told should be drawn from authentic and diverse experiences. And that our individual humanity can be celebrated. So I think it's it's not a matter of an either or an or. It's a matter of understanding all of us that there's and I say, my little sort of thing is saying, diversity is our reality. Inclusion is our future, meaning that there is room for everyone at the table. And if we don't have everyone at the table, then we don't understand who we are and who we are in relation to one another, what we mean to one another, what we mean to one another as a member of the society as a nation as an art form as a city. And I'll stop it. But that's thank you. So I'm going to come to you, Erica. Thank you, Sharon. And I guess no, that was terrific. And I think this is a conversation that we could have every night for an hour, you know, and and take one, you know, one night off a week and keep going for years and years and years, obviously, right. So in the 45 minutes or so that we have, we're going to kind of, I think, put a lot on the table. You know, Erica, so you know, from the perspective of working within one of the major theater institutions of Chicago, you know, maybe you can share with us how do some of these? You know, how do how do you with Steppenwolf talk about some of these issues when you're thinking about season planning, when you're approaching casting, you know, and maybe how has that changed in your years at Steppenwolf as well? Everybody on the panel, you know, it's sweet about their own experiences. And, you know, I'm a little bit, I guess, lunar. And if you're a white man and you can't act, you're not going to be on the step. You've had to cast those, I think. Right. You know, that phrase, and I believe it was our ensemble member James Meredith, when we were working on the Crucible, and he's an actor of his African American, many of you may know him, a wonderful actor, doing a book of Mormon right now. And he said, you know, you can't talk about it as colorblind, because, and I started laughing, I was like, because it's all you talk about when you're casting. Who's black? Who's not black? Is that changing the play? Does that change the relationship between the actors? What's the audience going to read? So as a casting director, when I walk into the room to work on casting, and I'm thinking, oh, colorblind, I was like, it's ridiculous, we can call it color aware, we can call it color conscious. But we are speaking about it, we are talking about it. And you're making very specific decisions in order to almost erase it as the subject of the play, if it's not something that is what the play is about. And I think there are, I mean, yes, I think that culture can't be owned. But there are stories that people value as their stories. And that's where it becomes pretty because you're, you're, you're, you're programming for an audience and you can't do the diary of Anne Frank and not, and not make sure that you auditioned every young Jewish girl in the city of Chicago and all the suburbs before you don't cast the Jewish girl, you just can't, you can't do a more comedy play and not see every actor that raises their hands who is an actor of Asian descent. You know, you just, I don't think you can. And I actually was completely unaware of this different diversity. Until I read what the panel was tonight. No one told me about it. I'm pretty aware that disconnect happened between the communities. But what I was tracking that whole time was the conflict with theater work in Connecticut, and the play The Motherfucker with the Hats. Right, right. Stephen Adlerges, and that is a written, or two actors who should be Puerto Rican. They are written as such. And this theater company passed to white people. And it really spun into this web controversy of the playwright wrote in saying this is outrageous. You didn't even read people of color and you're in Connecticut right across the bridge from New York. And we were casting the play at that time. So I was like, don't screw this one up. And the play is not written for. And we cleared it every step of the way with him because we also didn't want it to be about a stereotypical play about people who are of Latino descent who were yelling and screaming at each other. So each time we kept adding just the best actor, we really just kept adding the best actor for the role, the three other characters. And they happened to be Latino. We weren't, you know, aiming for that. And I think that's normal. We're looking at season planning. We're not just thinking about the actors. We're thinking about we are thinking about playwrights, directors, women, men, people of color. What stories are we telling in the court? I mean, the diversity in Chicago has to be what that represented. We want the United States that we want the stories to be diverse and not know when we used to be an all white ensemble. That was one story. As we started adding ensemble members of color, and they were raising their hands for projects that they were interested in that changed the landscape of our season. And yet most of our African American company members have no interest in doing the black play. It's not their interest. Hey, Todd Freeman, who's from Houston, doesn't have any interest in doing an August Wilson play ever. He's not from Pittsburgh. That doesn't obviously doesn't speak to him at all. He's like, that's like me sitting in a kitchen with a bunch of white women. And he'll say that to us. I'm not raising my hand for the August Wilson play. I'm a southern black man. That is different than an August Wilson black man. And so it's a really, it's an interesting thing. And I replays and I hear voices. I don't, I don't think color. I just hear actors voices. And that's how I start talking to directors about them. And when it happens to be an actor who's in a wheelchair, like it was a couple of years ago, then I'm going to pitch the actor in the wheelchair and say, I know it doesn't have a character written, but this is whose voice I hear. And I'm hoping you'll take this risk with me. And I think that's the conversation that I'm interested in having just like, what voices are we hearing? Who's the best actor? And how can we get beyond seeing the color and really talk about the stories that are out there that are the most interesting to tell? But historically, best actor, red white. And I think there has to be an acknowledgement that that is not true. And that the working assumption, historically, and for decades was that unless it was very specifically specified otherwise, a role was meant to be cast with a white actor. So that's what we have to, so and all casting is deliberate. Yeah, and I read what I wrote for that article in Time Out, in which I said when we were doing the more cummy play and I tried to audition Asian Americans in this in the city for that play, they just weren't as good only because they had not been given the ongoing opportunities as the younger white actors. I still think that is true, unfortunately. I don't think I think, you know, it's when I was casting who's afraid of Virginia Woolf recently, Edward Alding for the first time ever in his career, my understanding is that, you know, why don't we see for honey, if we can cast a Latina woman for an Asian American woman, not, I mean, it was very bizarre, the specific ethnicities you decided were okay. And I was like, you know, and that's Edward. And I was like, okay, well, you still want them, and then I tried to be called, but you still had demanded they be thin-hipped as the character is described. So I was like, okay, thank you, thank you God for it. I was like, thank you. I was like, thank you. I was like, thank you. And then I was thinking, and Martha never acknowledges that Nick is married to a non-white woman in the play. She's the meanest woman ever. She never says like, oh, you married a black woman, you know, like, just wouldn't culturally it happen. And then I was like, if we do cast a woman who's Asian, the play reads in male order of right, I don't care how you put it, it just does. I was like, this is almost sick that he's giving me permission to do this, but I auditioned as many women as I could, and because they had never auditioned for this play probably in the professional world, because if it had never been accepted by the playwright as casting appropriate, they couldn't do the role in a week. He gave me a week to like be like in the last minute of callbacks, sure, you're right, I should do this Erica. But nobody was equipped to do it at that point. And so I think that's again the disconnect, that if you don't get people on stage opposite these other actors throughout the course of their career, and you suddenly make this decision, we're going to cast a bunch of, you know, diverse people on the stage and not in a race color, they can't act opposite John Malcolm, they can, it will just be problematic and it's hard to, it's hard then to get a director to say, let's do that. I know, I am the chairman of the EEO committee on actors equity, for actors equity, and that is a committee that as I look in this room and see so many diverse people, I never see you at these workshops, some of you, that do nothing, but geared towards helping actors of color, disabilities, find their niche in the classic and classical theater, so that we help you with coaches, like Erica Daniels has sat on that panel, Adam Belcore sat on it, which past Monday we had a workshop at court theater, where there was Cree Rankin, there was Adam Belcore from the Goodman, there was Bob Mason from Shakespeare, there were so many other actors that teach Robbie Layman, who teaches, you know, and coaches, crazy as he is, coaches, you know, so there's, and we've had Mary Beth Fischer, we've had Larry Yondo, I can go on with all of the actors and actresses in town, that study, that coach, that help you do all of that, and that in lies some of the problem that I have when I say that wind blows both ways. Sometimes we want the benefit of that, but we don't want the struggle of what that is, because when you want to be seen as the actor that walks in the room to be the best one for the job, you must study your craft, and that's sometimes where I put the onus back on the actress and look, if you are not studying the Greeks and the classics, and you don't know what classical theater is, and you're not choosing those pieces, and when you get a general call for Erica, instead of going in and doing what she knows you're going to do, throw her a trick bone and let her see something else, and she goes, oh, if you don't put that in her brain, in a casting director's brain or someone's brain, they never think of it, and that's why sometimes I can't totally blame them, because we just kind of keep feeding them what they want. I don't go into auditions for certain things, because I don't walk into audition personally as an actor thinking I'm the black woman Erica came wanted to see in an audition. I go in as the actress that claims that particular role, I don't care what that role is, and I study for that role. If it's Medea, whatever it is, if it's the Greeks, I study for that, has nothing to do with me being black, and I think we have to, as actors, remember that we have to get rid of that too, because they give us what we give them, and when we walk in unprepared, and we don't know the piece, and we're not studying Shakespeare, and we don't want to learn verse, or we go in an audition and already said, I can't do that, so I, Erica, I can't come, I don't do that. Then that's, you know, that's why we see so many whites, when we want to say that, on stage, and we go, why, I could do that, really? Then why weren't you there? Because then you would be looking at yourself, because there's nothing better for me as a patron of the arts, or even hearing people say to me, it's wonderful when they can stand in a seat and say, I saw myself today. When I sat in that audience, it was wonderful to see you do, and I'm just using Aunt Eller in Oklahoma, I saw myself. We were represented today, and so there's a challenge for us too, as artists, to take that on, as writers, as directors, you know, we have to own our stories too, as artists, not just when it comes to our culture, but as artists, we have to do that. And sometimes we don't, and I think that's a great point you bring up, is that, you know, sometimes you go, we just can't do that, because they're not ready, they can be ready. We can study together. So what I might, you know, and I want to get the audience back involved as well, in the conversation, you know, I'm the moderator, but I'm going to offer a thought of my own as well, rather than just ask questions, which is that, you know, for me, when we talk about best, and when we talk about quality, right, because this is where, you know, this is where sometimes this conversation gets, as Erica said, it can get mean people, right? You know, it can get ugly when you're saying, when one person's in a place, or one group of people are in a place of saying, well, you know, you're not, you know, you didn't, you didn't make the grade here, right? But when we, you know, when we talk about best, when we talk about quality, these are subjective decisions, and best and quality, I think, are about craft, to be sure, but I also think personally, in the work that I do, they're also about our response, you know, what is our responsibility as artists, what responsibility do we take on to be moving society forward, and to be moving our city forward? And so maybe the question I'll put out, whether to the panel or to anyone else who's here, is, you know, how, how good a job are we doing at that, right now, as a Chicago theater community? Was it seven years ago that that article, the Why Is Chicago Theater So White Came Out and Time Out seven years ago, I think? So, you know, that article certainly made the argument that we weren't doing a very, a good enough job of it, we weren't doing a very good job of it at all, practically. How, how good a job are we doing right now of, of moving society forward, and what are ways that, not just on a play-by-play basis, right? Because it's, I think, you know, we can easily kind of hone in on any of these individual controversies or any individual set of casting decisions, but on a sort of, looking at the total ecology of Chicago theater, how are we doing? And, you know, and in what ways can we do better? Open it up to you, open it up to you. Yes, please. Yes. Oh, you can use the mic, though, so that it's on the simulcast, if you don't mind. Sorry. So, a couple of thoughts that may, I don't think these connect, just some things, just some thoughts on something I want to throw out there, really quickly. So, the first thing I think is all my young friends that are actors in town, it's a joke between us. I don't think it's mean-hearted, but it's a joke that I hear is, well, it's easy for you to get work, you're an ethnic actor in town, right? So, when timeline's doing blood and gifts, you're going to get cast, and when Victor Garnes is doing this connect, you're going to get cast. And I, I hear that sometimes, and I'm like, I know you're joking, but also there's only, if we're doing it that way, well, then there's only two roles a year I can possibly be cast for. So, really, you have 50 options, and I have two, and then there's only maybe 20 Indian actors versus the 300 white actors, but there's only 10 Indian parts for the 500. So, there's that, right? But then I feel like a hypocrite sometimes, because if a theater's doing American Buffalo, I want to be considered for that role, right? And so it does go both ways, right? So, can I, does that mean that I can only be in parts when it's an Indian actor, right? Or can I also be considered for the white role? Or not the white role, the role where it doesn't matter, like we've been talking about today, you know, is there that? Another thought, completely separate. Jake Gyllenhaal is Prince of Persia, and there's a movie coming out. There's a movie coming out, right? It's Arabian Nights. It's a movie coming out, Hollywood budget. You know what the budget is? $210 million budget, okay? Do you know who's playing Ali Baba? Liam Hemsworth. Liam Hemsworth is playing Ali Baba, okay? So, there's that. And the final thought. Final thought. I told you none of these connect, but some things I've been thinking about. This isn't an opinion. This is literally just a thought. How far are we going to go because, and how far should we go? And what's changing in the future because I play, and so does Kamal, and so does Manita, and so does Arya, and so does Debargo. We play Saudi Arabians all the time. I'm Indian. I play, I just played a Pakistani Muslim. I'm an Indian Zoroastrian. My bloodline's from Iran, right? But I, you know, you can't say that's the same color. Pakistan to India, to Saudi Arabia, to Lebanon are very different cultures, and it's always okay if I play any of those parts. So what happens, how far is it going to be that you need to cast an Afghani when I'm playing the Afghani role in a couple of months? Karim Bundiali and Anish are both playing Afghanis, but they're Indian. And, but that's okay. And if you're a Puerto Rican, you can play a Dominican. That's a very different culture, but that's okay. So how far are we going to, I'm not saying that there's a positive or not, I'm not making an opinion on it. I'm just saying it's something to think about, like it's okay if I'm playing Pakistani, I'm not Pakistani. Oh, here's the story. It's the real story. Oh, Braden, all that show needed dark hair and Indian hair. I don't think that there's any great, I think that there's thousands and thousands of great actors including you who could have played them part. So I think we're limiting ourselves. And I have to say, partly, I wish for the University of Wisconsin in the 1960s and was in Stuart Jordan's first place. So it kind of started the organic theater a long time ago, right down the street. And these discussions barely even mattered to us. It was like, okay, there's like seven people who do this and watched before. So much to respond to. I mean, there's so much to respond to on so many of these things. We're going to, you're waiting over here. So we're going to come over here. Sure. Thank you. Sure thing. A discussion tonight playing grace. And it's very upsetting to me because the history of colorblind casting, non-traditional casting, majority white, your Eurocentric stories plays being told on stage, majority white audiences supporting those stories. Not enough brown-skinned people on stage telling stories, coming to represent and hearing those stories. And this pendulum swinging far the other way in effort and initiative to get more Black people on stage, to get more South Asian Americans on stage, to get more Latinos on stage. If that being the only initiative, we got to throw some brown people up there, sometimes can be offensive. And in my personal life, I'm very tired of chasing my color and running away from it because it just leaves me stagnant. And the only clarity that I can find I'm a man. I love theater. I love stories. I love people, no matter what color they are. Just because there's an ensemble of Black people doing a play doesn't necessarily mean it speaks to me. I love August Wilson. Not all his characters speak to me. Not all the plays speak to me. And the notion and I think it's the accountability trying to find, sometimes discussions like this become about trying to find placing blame. Where are the wrongs? And I'm working on looking at myself and working on what I can do. Can't be colorblind, obviously not. But I think sometimes we can be a little bit too color conscious. And I see someone of a particular color and I have all these preconditioned notions about who they are, where they're from, what they sound like. And I think I know their story. So I'm a producer so I'm gonna put their story on stage because I know their voices need to be heard. As if I know what needs to be said. And I didn't study but we need to throw some brown people on stage. That I find offensive. And I think that it is a responsibility for all of us to really support humanity and stories being told because if we are true to that and want to represent the United States, the population truthfully, clearly and be that mirror, it's gonna be diverse. Thank you. Absolutely. I think both of these young men and my great admirers that they'll work as actors. So I say that at the forefront. But I think the world has not caught up with them yet. Absolutely. And I don't mean to be crude about it or rude about it. But it hasn't. And I think we have made some strides and we've made a lot of mistakes. I acknowledge that in the casting community. But it hasn't caught up. You know, I look at my, and I consider many of the people in this room my friends, not just people I put on the stage. This has been my community for 20 years. And I honestly can't even, I don't know if I read you for, you know, American Buffalo. I can't remember if we saw any people of color for that. I honestly can't. Like I was sitting here listening to you going, do you want to see me? Can't remabse off if I didn't. But, but I also laugh at the other, you know, the other. You know, I'm just sorry. But I mean, that's what I can say. Sorry, we didn't go that direction on that play. But, you know, I can sit there and I listen to the other, you know, I'm, you know, and of course, those ethnicities, those cultures, they are drastically different. And in the casting world, at this moment, they are one in the same. You are ethnically ambiguous. That is your category. Sorry. Like that's what it is. And it's a, it's a very crude reductionist business. But it's true. But it's the truth. It's the truth. And so your power as the actor, then it's your, it's your decision to say no. And many of you don't. Because you want to, You better preach. And I, and I get that. To say no to a several of audition, I am absolutely okay with that. A woman, I, you know, I got a role with nudity. I got a role with swearing. I've got roles right now with the F-bomb every other set and then somebody declines it. I will call them in for the next role they're right for. There is no skin off my bone if you decline. Everybody has their personal standards. But you have to know the all sorts of realities of what is the casting business. And it's, and it's better here than it is anywhere else. That's the funny, that's the weird thing. It's like you can't be in LA or New York and expect to make money if you're not the Jake Gyllenhaal. It's just not gonna, the movie isn't gonna get made. The Broadway show isn't gonna get re-lit. We can't get people into see who's afraid of Virginia Woolf. It's sold out here. It's moving. It's closing months too early. Then it should be closing. Because there isn't a star in that show. And that's, that's Broadway. You're not Katie Holmes and you're not Julia Roberts. You're not Stella. Yep. You know Julia Roberts that's playing Amy Morton's role in the movie of Augusto States County. That's a tragedy. It is. You're right. You absolutely love it. That's, it's a tragedy. And it's, you know, I'm not trying to dismiss these things, but I'm trying to say the world hasn't caught up to these amazing, you know, these both of your words, I don't think. And we have a long way to go. So I want to acknowledge, I just want to acknowledge. And that, and I guess that's why I, I've tried so hard to want actors to be extremely educated and extremely aware of what you need to do to get yourself out of that trap. A feeling like you only have those two roles a year. Or that you own, you know what I'm saying? Or that you only have that opportunity to be looked at as that African American actor. There are absolutely, trust me. And Ron, you know, there are roles I will not do. I'm going to tell you a story, a quick story. I got caught by a very famous writer to do a show across the pond. Across the pond about an old Southern place in Atlanta where the wind blows. And they caught me. Okay. And they called me. And they said, Fed, he wants to see you. He wants to see you. He's writing. And he said, he wants to see you. You cannot turn down this opportunity. You are crazy. He wants you to come to New York and he wants you to, I said, do what? And they said, we'll send you the side. Get ready. We're flying you in. And I get the side and it says, she sits on a porch with a rag on her. I want to tell you this. And she moans and she groans and she rocks and sings a spiritual. Oh my god. I called my editor back. I said, you didn't see me the side. I got the description. But I didn't get the side. And they said, no, no, no, no, no, no. We need someone that can really bring life. Wear a rag on her head and rocking and moaning and groaning and singing a spiritual. So tonight, will you do that? Here we go. And I said, no, I don't do moaning, groaning, do spirituals or wear a rag on my head. I did it once in my life because I wanted to experience it. And I wanted to be able to speak from a truthful place. I don't want to do that. And I'll collect cans before I do that. That's where some integrity comes in as individuals and you have to decide what you're willing, you won't do. Everybody thought I was crazy. How could I turn this man down? Who is like this major producer, writer, what are you talking about? And I refuse to do it. Of course, they got somebody to do it and they closed in two weeks. God bless them. But I'm just saying, you have to find where you fit and you don't have to take everything. But the reason I can say no to something like that is because I'm prepared to go in an audition and do something else. But you know what I call that? I call that terrorist number two. You know what I'm saying. But you and that's why we have to be prepared to do something else. We got to be prepared to do something else. So first of all, in response to Erica's comment that Chicago is, I think ahead of the curve when it comes to diverse casting nationally, I just want to commend Victory Gardens on assembling an entirely South Asian cast for this production because I know that it's so small-feet and I know that's something that you guys immediately set as a priority from the get-go and I think that that's really commendable. That being said, I know that a lot of times these conversations spark as casting controversies and they sort of get stuck there. I think that there was, at least for me with Pippin, there was a broader question that was to be asked about style. Can you take a culturally specific style and remove it from that culture? If so, what do you lose and what do you gain? And I do, for the record, think that there is an argument to be made for Bollywood as a style, especially contemporary Bollywood, which is so multicultural and looks like a hip-hop video these days. And I was telling a really good friend of mine about that who is a stage manager who had recently worked on a production of Big River and she said, yeah, you know, there's this part in the show where we have an all-white cast singing a Negro spiritual and I don't feel so good about that but I can't tell you why. So I guess my question is, where are we drawing that line when it comes to style? Sorry. Yes, white people are playing the slaves now. Oh, they do it. I mean, you know, they're writers now that write the script for two casts. I mean, you can get a production of Once on this Island that's done like it's supposed to do and then you can get it for a white cast. I think that's kind of crazy when it's a story about color but, you know, the difference in culture and color but, you know, I guess you just get some lighter white folks and darker white folks. I don't know. Crazy me. I think this, I'm going to come over to you. I think this question of style is important. I think this question of expanding the conversation beyond casting to the question also of what stories are being, you know, what stories are we putting on the stage and a question of writers and a question of producers and a question of artistic directors. Right. And I think it does come back to a couple of the things that, you know, that we've heard that I just want to kind of draw a line under, you know, that, you know, Sharon talked about, you know, a history, I should look at the language because it was a really great language and I wrote it down. You know, writing some of the wrongs that, you know, that have been made with regard to the exclusion, the overwhelming exclusion of groups of people from participation in the American theater and appearance on the stage and also, I think that's also as artists and, you know, I think that's also about stories being told as well. Humanity. Thank you for speaking. I really appreciate that the multiple perspectives you've had. I wanted to respond to Beza really quickly about Jake Gyllenhaal. Not that he's hot, he is, but but that there is a history of playing yellow face and brown face that I think we have to acknowledge that and I think Ms. Saigon on Broadway is the best example. So white people have have the privilege of being being cast as everything. The history of black face and yellow face and brown face. So I think we need to remember that it's not just because he's famous but because white people have been allowed to be everything for a long time and we need to acknowledge privilege in casting. The other thing you were asking how are we doing in terms of producing theater and I think Levina's issue of style is not only what's on stage but how is the audience expected to act during a performance? You know, I've been performing since I was a kid but I haven't been doing theater. I've been doing shows at the temple where aunties are eating samosas and answering their cell phones and it's okay during a performance and there's that interaction but here you're told run rap before and you know there's there's this way we're supposed to behave in the theater that is also culturally specific and I think that we have to acknowledge that that is something that we're trained to do or expected to do or even actually told to do by the voiceover and so I think style when we think about it is not only what's on stage but how we train the audience to see theater and to interact and thank you. Thank you. Yeah, sure. You were mentioning the idea of brown face, yellow face, black face and I mean it goes it's a very long obviously tradition in this country and I mean think a little bit Miss Saigon and in the British production Miss Saigon, Jonathan Price not only wore makeup but he also wore prosthetics around his eyes when he came to this country he didn't dare do that but that idea that that is acceptable is an idea that I think many communities artists of color are now saying it is no longer acceptable and for example there was a production of The Nightingale out at La Jolla and it was an adaptation of a Hans Christian Anderson tale set in a mythical of fable, fabulistic place that was magical called China and there was a magical mystical role that was the emperor and so on and so on all the references were Chinese so they said they wanted to make it multicultural although they ended up making it 50% white which wasn't particularly multicultural this was a workshop incidentally and the director and the playwright sorry the artistic director and the director Moises Klopman who's a remarkable director apologized to the community for doing this but the point I'm trying to make is that none of the men in The Nightingale in this workshop even though they were magical mystical Chinese were cast as as Asian American they were cast they were cast Caucasian and it said a lot of things it said that they thought it was okay to do that and they said would you would you think of putting a white actor in blackface and in this country anymore I dare say it probably wouldn't be okay and the Asian American performers action coalition said we want to say right now it is not okay with us any longer and there was something else that because of all the all the sort of more subtle messages that get get sent to an audience because you don't know exactly what it means what is it supposed to mean are they all supposed to be Chinese are we not supposed to like Chinese I mean what is the message you're supposed to be and it's so confusing the point was then made that it's an appropriation of a culture and that in that that there may not be enough of a cultural context to understand what the meaning of that is and I'm going to give you just one more example because I haven't seen the production but I understand that the round about if in the Edwin Drew that they're doing they're doing this there's a little company of actors that are doing a show in brownface and their Caucasian actors and that this is supposed to be historically set as though it were Caucasians at the time doing this kind of thing so is there a historical verisimilitude here but the point here again is there's not a sufficient cultural context to understand what that really means to an audience because what everybody does is laugh at them and so it ends up meaning that the South the Asian Americans and the South Asians who are in brownface are the butt of the joke they're not understood as to be ironic or satirical or farcical if the whole cast were really multicultural then maybe it would the point was made by a member of the APAC that it might have had more possibility but it wasn't and one more example was in Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson that I found highly offensive it was supposed it was in the name of farce it was in the name of satire and Native Americans were portrayed in extremely negative way and also historically completely inaccurate way and the story was told that the American Indians killed Andrew Jackson fact family which were not true but which gave then the story the idea that it was okay for Andrew Jackson then to murder the Indians and in the way that he did by thousands by forcing them out of Georgia and forcing the drive to Oklahoma so again there was not there was not an appropriate cultural context to understand this disability was also treated in a very shockingly appallingly I felt trivial way as was the issue of being gay in this and it was all in the name of oh it's a farce get over yourself but it's not it was it's only Caucasians who were saying that Caucasian people who didn't have the joke being against them who were laughing at everybody else who were saying get over yourself it's a farce it's a satire and in my sense I don't even think it was a satire so I know that was long but I just felt unique just to put this in context of how how much this really is going on absolutely thank you Sharon and I see we've got folks waiting in our microphones no which is terrific I don't know how much more time we have so at some point I assume that somebody's going to tell me we need to stop because you know anybody who knows me knows I'll keep going forever great so you know maybe these last two maybe a chance for anybody on the panel to add something if they'd like to and I'd certainly what's that two three yeah sure and you know one of the things I'd love to is as you're up there and certainly whatever you've come planning to say but also you know what's in this question of move in this idea of moving forward moving us forward as a as a city moving us forward as a Chicago theater community you know what's something you'd like to see and that's something I'm going to ask our panel as well we'll come over first to you and then to you and then back over here first off and and second to answer your early question how is Chicago appearing I think Chicago is sucking horribly there are some bright spots like Albany Park Theater Projects is one of my favorite organizations thank you country and Silk Road's doing an amazing job in the cookie gardens doing a good job but as a community we rarely try to do better we don't do better because we don't ever try and that kind of brings me to two things that Erica said and I want to turn it back to you as questions and not it's not a refutation of what you said however at one point early on you said when actors of color come up they're not ready because they get on they don't get on stage so they can't go toe-to-to with Melkovic because they don't get on stage and then later you said it's a choice that an actor has that if Kamal who's Indian doesn't want to play an Iraqi he has the choice to say no and how do you balance those two things when actors of color are routinely told they are not ready when you call or when Adam calls or when any of the big stages call because they don't get on stage but the only way they can ever get ready is to be on stage often in roles that are not something that they would like to take how do those two things balance out so that they can navigate that treacherous water that white actors are never asked to navigate that's not true because any young or new or non-union white actor in this room knows they can't go up against Melkovic either so that's that's actually not a good statement but 22 year old actors from Northwestern do get on the step on the stage and I'm not I'm not pushing back on you but if an actor is told that you have the opportunity to say no to role that is nothing like you then how do you ever get on stage let me just finish by saying we have we have different streams of programming at step on the wall we have nine plays that are in our derived series we have two equity productions that are for our young adult series and we have standalone productions that are upstairs series theater many of those we are required to hire at least 50 percent non-union actors so I I am out seeing theater at most of the small theaters during the week it's very rare I'm actually at the Goodman Chicago Shakespeare of course because I know those actors I'm out seeing the new young actors of all representation in the city and if you are good yes you will get on the step on the main stage if you are and I can name names you know I've done it a few times a handful of times in my time at step on the wall pluck somebody out of Roosevelt pluck somebody out of Northwestern and put them on a main stage show but it's rare in my history if you really look at the castlets and look at the memos it's very rare it's usually somebody that has done a couple of S.Y.A. shows done the school at Steffenwall which in most cases it has been somebody probably that has you know done the school at Steffenwall they've gotten to know Amy Morton for teaching Meisner she's like I love this young actor I want to put them in the play and I do think that that there's a difference between doing the show opposite Malkovich and doing a show for our S.Y.A. programs there are there are many places of entry for many people there but I think the standards are are as high at a place like Steffenwall for my white actors then for my non-white actors they it has to be it just has to be but and I would I would just I would go to the mat saying that yeah I think it it's equally as challenging as and I think it's hey I have a degree in theater from Northwestern I think all of you are crazy for Presidium I really do I mean I'm much more comfortable on this side of the table it's a it's a crazy feel because it is a constant how do I get better how do I get better how many people are gonna say no how much rejection am I gonna take and I think it's it's about getting out there and doing the work but it is about who you know and it is about being in the right place at the right time and it's not to say that somebody's gonna come in one day and I'm gonna be like you know what we gotta take a shot on this person it does happen you know John Michael Hill did one show at Steffenwall he was a junior at University of Illinois and the playwright and I looked at Anna Shapiro when she was looking at a different headshot to cast that one role and he was summer of junior year and Bruce Norris and I looked at Anna Shapiro and said are you crazy he's not right for the role he is and she went okay I'll listen to you guys well that has changed that has changed the course of that young man's life I mean so you think about it's a it's a random moment of are you crazy you know this is the right person for the role and her response in that moment was really he was looks the least African to me the character was African and I went he's so good who cares this is the guy that we should be working with and three weeks later Anna Shapiro walked into Martha Levy's office and said not only was I wrong I wanted to be an ensemble and he was before he graduated from college you know so this business is that way and those those rules have many exceptions I'm going to come over to you thank you so I just want to say a couple of things that might not make sense together but this past November theater communications group had its fall forum and the topic was diversity because it was the first year in its 50 year history that it's strategic plan named diversity as a core issue that the American theater needed to deal with and so I took home some things that I've been struggling with and thinking about and one of the main questions they posed to these 150 plus theater professionals was do we have a moral obligation as institutions as institutional theaters to really take on this issue in a more aggressive kind of way when in 2024 look at what the stats are going to be of the population the white is not going to be the majority anymore and so these are things that I've been thinking about and when you kind of talk about as an actor of color I want to be able to play any part I absolutely agree with you I think again it goes back to something you mentioned David I think the conversation is less sometimes about casting and more about what stories are being told and who is telling them and is it the same three people the three same three tokens that are telling them what I'm so happy those three tokens have made it but who else is going to get there but all of this kind of goes back to what you were talking about with the Moises issue the moral outrage I think that a lot of the groups felt after that I don't even want to call it an apology but this apology that they gave is that they kept trying to justify I think we're all so angry not because necessarily that there were more Asians cast in this myth mythological Chinese location when you look at the garb and you look at the style it's clearly Chinese I think we're angry because these institutional leaders don't understand that 50% is not multicultural that they don't understand like how do you not understand that as a partner in this field so I think that's all that there's a moral outrage on our part too because we can try to have these equity workshops they're amazing all of these things but what does that do in the institutions and then how does that trickle down so I think that was part of what was upsetting is that people are apologizing and we're having these conversations and yet I still feel like we're going home in these factions and feeling differently than what we're saying in public at these forums so what we're learning from each other I mean that's the that's the positive is that all of this is about going forward and how we learn from each other and how we better understand the sensitivities of every distinct population and there is no monolithic Latino community or African American and so on and so forth but how we understand each other is human beings and I think you have to I think it's a hard pill to swallow I know it is but you have to know that there are many that just don't give a damn they're going to do what they do at their theaters and when you see it they're clearing your face or it's not on their radar it's just not what they want they're not they're not focused on that and you know those theaters they're not like you know you go oh really they did that you know and some of them do it because they have a quota and they're trying to get if it's a non-for-profit theater they're trying to get there one disability one Asian one black and the things so they can get some money from a corporation you know what I'm saying it's all there I mean these are real business and I think that's what we forget this is a business for so many of these corporate organizations that we call theater now and we have to get to that too we have to know that these theaters now have been are owned by corporations they're no longer the artists that I went to school with and got high within the Cal Prittiners basement I'm being real we got high in Cal Prittiners basement she wasn't there but I'm telling on myself you know what I'm saying we sat around and they were like we're going to open up we're going to get a good rise we're going to have a theater I went to school with those people and my dumb ass went y'all are just high and shut up and now it's Steppenwolf so so what I'm saying are we going to scoot it so what I'm saying is we got to kind of wrap ourselves around that too I know that's a it's not a nice thing to discuss right I agree but we got to get the butts in the seat that's the problem and I think it's realized because that was in San Diego you know and so that population that population is very so I actually these organizations that you know I really don't know about because I'm not a member though I know like on the periphery about I think it's really important that that's who's leading a lot of that charge also because I wonder if like Moises Kaufman who's a gay Jewish Brazilian most sensitive man I know would have done that in San Francisco had he been casting his workshop and I bet you he wouldn't have like it's just a very it's really interesting how it's up to all of us to hold each other accountable and keep us on our toes because I bet you he truly meant the apology knowing him as I do but he never would have dared in a in a more ethnically diverse because La Jolla is La Jolla is yeah it's La Jolla is mammy's money not just money but I'm talking about mammy's money okay and also I did the whiz there again another cultural experience with the whiz where they did the same kind of thing where they you know multicultural that's throw up the spoons to see what happens and we did it at La Jolla and those people on those boards at a place like La Jolla that's got so much money they are like you're going to do with this community wants you to do and that does not always you know what I'm saying it's really it's it's important that that we all hold each other accountable and not let each other off the hook right it's just it's it's the way we move and I think that a really important thing that you said is that and we're coming right over to you is that you know is that we spend a lot of that we do spend a lot of time justifying and we can find ways to justify not quite anything but in this this country does have a has an outstanding history of just of finding extraordinarily clever ways of justifying racism and prejudice and exclusion you know and I'm I'm working on a show about housing right now right and I'm reading all the literature about why black people couldn't be sold homes and given mortgages because of what you know what they would do to communities and the property values right and it was justification from economic standpoint right we have an incredible history of that in this country right we're coming over to you hi I just wanted to kind of leave off on a positive note I you know from New York I've been following up with APAC my friends I started the group and and I watched the forum in Loyola and on the whole Nightingale incident and I've also been following up with the RSC because a similar incident was happening at a production in in London been kind of following along with all this and I was recently in a rehearsal room with a bunch of Asian actors we were doing an you know a Chinese Chinese play and and a couple of the Asian actors kept on getting sick and so the one that was supposed to come from LA couldn't make it he was sick and with this really fantastic Caucasian older male actor that was in the role that this other Asian man was supposed to be in and it was really inconvenient you know for this Asian actor not to come to Chicago to be a part of this and I really applauded the casting director that we were working with because he was like absolutely not absolutely not we know what's happening in San Diego we know what's going on over in London we know what's happening in films we must get an Asian actor and it took about two weeks but somebody finally you know got flown out from California and that's when I was like you know it might be a tiny step and it goes back to your question of it you know remaking progress well maybe not on a whole you know but it's making that extra effort but yeah but and it made progress in this particular production and I wrote to my friends in New York and I'm like you know what San Diego man have done this you know London might have done that but in this particular institution here in Chicago they made sure that they got an Asian Asian American older actor to play this part so I just wanted to leave on that note you know on that point I'm gonna yes so somebody was somebody asked Jeffrey the other night about this play and Debargo was brought in from New York and they said well what if you didn't find him you didn't find that actor you know and they'd auditioned everybody here and we have a bunch of very talented South Asian actors that are all working right now in the city and the answer was well we would have had to move the show if we couldn't find that actor that that to me is yeah absolutely well it's true though so I think we should thank Victory Gardens for having the conversation I think that providing a stage you know and saying just after you know saying hey just after a performance on a regular school night you know on a regular performance night we're gonna just we're gonna call a town hall that's not specifically about this show that we're doing because we think that we should have this conversation I think if we do more of this I think that's a good that's that's one good step for sure and to allow some of the testimony that we were able to hear you know I think that's that's really terrific and I'm I'm proud to be able to sit up here as part of that so that is a good question Jeffrey no you go to newflaytv.info you can find all of it archives there that's by newflaytv it's a channel that's run by all around and it's not with us so how would this be saved there until the internet breaks? and there's going to be another conversation right that's and for posture yeah yeah yeah so there's so listen up one more thing before you go and spread the word because there's another there's an opportunity just a couple of weeks to continue tonight's conversation right yeah so there's when we do this space for February 18th at 7 o'clock I'll be moderating and on the panel we'll have the deal joining us Chay you can be regarded and take with me long flying into New York and Eliza she will be joining us from uh for the panel as well so they're making 18 7 o'clock I hope you guys join us thank you the last thing that I want to say before we wrap is um when I asked Sharon Sharon I've never been to this for ever when we talked on the phone and I was like we're going to do the thanks Sharon says you know what this opportunity what this presents is an opportunity to do it and to do it and to do it and to stop and pause and just say and talk to them and these women are incredibly important and so when we talk about what is the way forward it's absolutely there's a time that we stand together as you make sure that you go or talking about the work that we do talking about is an opportunity for you alrighty that was informative he's so good he's good he's good he's good he's good well I know I think