 Hey everybody. Thank you for coming today. My name is Zach Chandler and I'm with Stanford University and today I'd like to talk to you about Drupal and the Academy, why they matter to one another and why they should be more deeply acquainted. And today we heard Dries talk about the need to innovate and in my opinion we have a rare opportunity to innovate with Drupal in the Academy and I don't know that that's a given. So I think that I want to point out some of the emerging technologies we're facing. If I were to give this talk six months ago I would probably be talking about different things and I want to just call them out and then maybe we can start a conversation around them and if there's some interest we can talk afterward about how to go about addressing these. So Drupal and the Academy. Why Drupal matters to the Academy has everything to do with its architecture. I like to think of it as primordial clay. So when you download it and unzip it, it doesn't look like a whole lot but it can be shaped to really specific purposes. And in higher education we're not afraid of complexity and together with our domain expertise and the inherent flexibility of the platform, I think we can do great things. And as we've seen in other sectors from government and so forth that Drupal can be shaped to suit the mission of organizations and in higher education our mission is teaching and research. And I think sometimes it's easy for us to get heads down on a project and forget that. And I want to make a statement and we can argue about whether or not it's true but I want to say that we have yet to really leverage the potential of Drupal for teaching and research. I think that if we don't, we're really missing the boat. And there are exceptions, of course. So I would call out the ELMS project at Penn State. There he is in the back. There's Prince Edward Island. There's the Islandora project for connecting to Fedora repositories. And I have colleagues at Stanford, Elijah Meeks and Digital Humanities. He is using Drupal to connect to a Geo server and he's showing georectified historical maps that surface node data, entity data, and show it on the historical map which has proven to be a really interesting teaching tool. And about five minutes ago I learned about a service learning distribution for Drupal. So clearly no one can see the gamut. And I know that the statement that we're not using it for teaching research is not entirely true. But I think most of the headlines that are happening in higher education and adoption of Drupal, it's more using Drupal for communication technology than really using it as a teaching or research platform. So I want to make sure that there's not some opportunities lost here that we could have really engaged with and done something interesting. So the Academy matters to Drupal because Drupalers often want to work on interesting projects that benefit society. That might sound a little altruistic, but I think it's true. And then I think it has to do with the fact that many of the top Drupalers and the firms that are out there now, they got their start in things like progressive political campaigns and social justice initiatives. And they're still do-gooders. So the fact that we have substantive work to engage with is something that is of interest to them. So just to be conscious of the fact that part of the special opportunity that we have with the Drupal platform is not just what we can undertake under our own power, but it is open source. And yet we have this professional tier that we can engage with to get us places further and faster than we could have otherwise. And speaking to that draw that academia has for some of the top Drupal talent, we'll be solving some of the world's greatest challenges from AI, robotics, medicine, stem cell research, cancer research, nanotech, energy, engineering and design, basic science, universities or innovation centers. We also have experts in the humanities, literature, philosophy to help us build a thoughtful, compassionate future, not just a well engineered one. So coming back to this idea versus communication technology versus academic technology now. And so I was an academic technologist for a number of years and I worked in Drupal every day. And I would say that most of the projects I worked on were using Drupal for communication, collaboration, content strategy. These are the things that we know and we understand well and we're succeeding using Drupal for this in universities. And which is not to say that that's a really important thing. It is. And the successes we've had in that area are really, really valuable. But I think that Drupal can and should be part of a knowledge system that changes research and teaching. And if we're not thinking this way, then we're missing a huge opportunity. So I want to call out some specific challenges to the Drupal community and in particular the academic Drupal community for us to think about. Distance learning is becoming more important than ever. This has something to do with economic downturn. And but also it's, there have been some new developments that aside from institutions of higher education having to identify revenue streams and things like that, that there's, we're coming to an understanding that distance learning is going to be important for everyone and that it can have a transformative effect not just on the way that we teach but on society more generally. And here I'm speaking specifically of MOOCs. Massively open online courses. Has anybody ever heard of these before? That term in the particular? Okay. And in a related topic I would point to the social learning environment and how that differs from LMS. And I'm kind of joking when I say LMS is so 2011. I think that in particular, LMS is a very interesting project that deserves more attention and more developers. And Brian Allendike is the man in the blue in the back. So he's the person to talk to. One thing about LMS is that I've observed their use and adoption and how it's changed over the last 10 years. I started in academia in a small liberal arts college in the Northeast. And those colleges work together a lot because, you know, they're small and sharing ideas and collaborating makes a lot of sense. So talking with IT leaders there, one of the things that I noticed is that nobody liked their LMS. Everyone had one, but almost no one would switch. So there's this sort of pernicious cycle. I mean, there are cases where a university will make a big move. Say they move from Blackboard to Desire to Learn or something like that. Or to Elms. But I think one of the things that's interesting is that the new developments are sidestepping some of the baggage that LMSs have. They're lighter and more nimble. So the thing about MOOCs, the massively open online courses is that they scare the bejesus out of everybody. So for those of you who aren't familiar with these, it is distance learning at a massive scale. MIT made headlines recently by opening a MIT course, all the course materials for free on the internet to everybody. Anyone who cares to sign up for it. Now MIT has a really strong history with things of this nature with their extremely admirable open courseware program. But this is something else altogether. Open courseware provided syllabi and some readers and some, you know, materials. But this is an online course experience. And they are developing a platform for that. I don't know that they have disclosed any of the details about what that platform is. But there are others that have also come into being at around the same time period recently. So MIT has its official program, MITX. They're releasing what they're starting with one course. I think they want to get perfect. And then open it up to other courses. Stanford does what Stanford does. And they make companies. So there are two new companies that came into being from Stanford's recent foray into the massively open online course genre. And the first is Udacity, which is led by Sebastian Thrun. So those of you who may have read about the AI class that captures some headlines in the New York Times, that has now become this venture Udacity. Similarly, our computer science faculty have created an entity called Coursera. And one of the things that's interesting about Coursera that I noticed is that now they are getting collaborators from other institutions. I think the last I checked, University of Michigan was offering a course on the Coursera platform. And it's worth mentioning some of the other. So those are the three big ones that are coming from universities. And that's the headline-grabbing part, is that these degree-granting institutions are now opening up the doors to pretty much everybody. And that's one of the scary parts about it. But I think it's really important to note the Khan Academy and the massive success that they have experienced. And I think I suspect that that success might have something to do with the launching of these other ventures. So I don't think you can read from where you're sitting, but just above the logo it says, this is a screen grab from their website, 131 million lessons delivered. So it makes it sound kind of like McDonald's, but I think it's illustrative of the point. And peer-to-peer university, P2PU, which is another really interesting development, not so much in this same vein as the others. It's not an official degree-granting university, but it informs this space in some way that I think there's some thinking about. And it has to do with thinking about people not as students but as learners and leveraging the expertise of our peers to self-organize and to learn from one another. And that's part of this methodology somehow. Coming back to methodology and in that point of peer learning, I think one of the innovations that these platforms have come up with, well one is from the Stanford side, algorithmic chunking of video so that we're not streaming whole course lectures. There's a machine that understands how to break them into digestible chunks that are topical. And the other part is that how do you teach 160,000 people? So the video delivery is one obvious method and that one of the things I was talking with some Stanford faculty member who's involved in this and they noticed that the scrubber bar is a really important tool that obviously doesn't exist in a live lecture. If a professor says something that's kind of difficult to understand, pause, scrub, watch it again, scrub, watch it again until it makes a little bit more sense. So that never really existed before at scale. But also, I think they were using discussion for it in a really interesting way and that is using analytics, they could figure out a student that answered a question right and a student that answered a question wrong and they wouldn't tell them who was right and who was wrong but they could pair them and have them talk to each other. And I just thought that that was a really sort of innovative way to approach learning. So there was, I think Sebastian Thrun and his partner, Norvig, were talking about this, you know, opening up their AI curriculum. And to be honest, artificial intelligence classes are rare. You couldn't take that anywhere. So to be able to take it from the project lead of the Google Autonomous Car project is pretty amazing. They thought that they might have, they were arguing whether they might have a thousand students or ten thousand students show up and they had 160 thousand. Twenty thousand completed the course and I was just talking with John, Vicar, a colleague of mine about what do we think that means in terms of concurrent users? How do you support that? And this is the challenge part. Could we do this in Drupal? Does someone from the community want to have a horse in this race? I see somebody shaking his head. So, you know, I've asked this question of Pantheon and it's not clear. I think we have to, if we want to have a shot at this, we have to think about this and think about it right now because we make hasty platform decisions. So if we want to be involved in this, I think we have to be ready for some of these questions. One of the interesting things about the Coursera project is that the stack sounds really similar to Drupal. However, they rely heavily on MongoDB. There's Mongo module for Drupal. How would all of these things work together? We have experts in performance and we have commercial firms that specialize in performance. So I think, seems to me, we have a really unique opportunity at having an open source platform with professional services attached that could provide something really compelling. So I don't think we have to be afraid of MOOCs. So I also wanted to call out the notion of a social learning environment. Now, there are other projects underway right now where they specifically and vehemently, they say that they're not in LMS. And what they attempt to do instead is they leverage social media and learning outside the classroom. And I think that going on networks is a good example of this. And I think it's an idea that we might want to consider for LMS-like projects that we entertain in the future. So I think scale issues are solvable. We're at an inflection point right now. I would really like maybe during DrupalCon this week to talk with some folks who think that they might want to take a shot at this. Distance education at a massive scale. So the engagement of academia and technology, the story has a hero. And I would say that those are the instructional and academic technologists that are working in colleges and universities across the country. Instructional and academic technologists. So for those of you outside of academia, these are jobs. And they're occupied by real people. And there's, to give those, the developers that are interested in working with this group. And I think that's the connection I want to make is to make sure that we have the academic technologists working together with the Drupal folks on campus if they happen to be different groups. Because in some cases they are. Academic and instructional technologists, there's an inherent propensity towards a hacker-dabbler approach seeking expedient solutions to meet their own needs, that is, their faculty's needs. And the scope of the possible is often bounded by academic semesters, 15 weeks or quarters, 10 weeks. So if it can't be done in less than 10 weeks, it's not a viable option in many cases. Staff teams are small, often a single individual. And they have to be very careful about how they invest their time. And sometimes cannot afford the luxury of deep expertise in any one technology. So these are the subject matter experts that I want to win over to Drupal. And whenever one of them realizes that time invested in learning Drupal is time that is an investment that pays off again and again. And there's a leverage principle. The learning that is required for building at one project, you get to reap that reward later for other projects. There's a handful of folks like that around the country. And I think we need to infect more people, because there's thousands more. So I think we need to evangelize and we need to take this message back to our campuses and maybe do some outreach at other conferences, other venues. Because I think the adoption isn't anywhere near where it should be or where it has a right to be. So teaching and research. We do both. I would say that Drupal is a research grade platform. And we need more people to know about that. Part of, I mean, I've mentioned this before, but I think one of the aces up our sleeve is that we do have, Drupal has a professional tier that we can engage with to do kind of really magical stuff. All of us operate at our limits and we have limited time. We can't always execute projects to our satisfaction. We have these constraints. We have these constraints of terms and quarters. So for big projects, I think it really behooves us to think of the Drupal professional tier as partners in this. And they're interested in helping us solve problems. And for example, I'll point out the Open Academy project from chapter three. So that's something that they believe in. I was involved in helping them think about how to do that. And I can tell you that their motivation is not, their first motivation was not to make money. Pantheon did not even exist at the time. And really it was chapter three seeing that so many separate colleges and universities were all individually struggling to spin up a robust web architecture for academic departments and so forth that they wanted to solve it for everybody. So I would encourage you to attend. If you're on a campus that's considering moving to Drupal, I would encourage you to attend the Open Academy session and talk to chapter three about that. So here's one of the challenges that I talked about. Can we establish Drupal as a credible research platform? It can do so much. So web services, handling data, mapping. We can do some really, really incredible things with Drupal. And I'm really dismayed that there are so many folks in research computing and in academic technologies that don't think so. I think Drupal is for websites. So for example I would point to the Mellon Foundation. So Mellon funds a lot of research in the humanities and I worked in the humanities before I joined Stanford Web Services. So Mellon was a big deal to us. And I was talking with the project manager at Mellon and he was fond of talking about the canonically bad digital humanities proposal that he would see time and again. And it inevitably revolved around an individual faculty member with a small boutique project that had their own personal collection of 19th century French poetry that they wanted to digitize and mark up in TEI. Which is not to say that that's not important. I'm a huge advocate for the small boutique projects and the individual faculty interest. But Mellon is really now focusing on platforms. So they want to solve big problems and they want to build platforms rather than fund small boutique projects. And so Project Bamboo. Is anybody involved in Bamboo? So it was they spent so they got a lot of funding and they asked a lot of people about how to design a services oriented architecture for academic research and collaboration. And I don't think so. I would love to talk with the Bamboo guys that raised their hand. I don't think Drupal is on that roadmap at all. Despite the fact that we have Drupal Services module. Yeah. Okay. So that might be coming soon. So we have some really great folks here this week. And as you know what we heard from Dries today about Symphony being working to Drupal 8. So at Stanford we're also extremely interested in and developing best practices around web services. So anyway that's really heartening that that's on the radar for Project Bamboo. So I think that we are a community. We help each other on Drupal.org and in IRC and on our campuses. But I don't know that technologists in academia that are working in Drupal. I don't think that's a community yet. Maybe there's a hesitancy to share across institutional lines. You know maybe we don't want to have our colleagues at other schools to see how sketchy our code is. But I think that that's got to go. So I think institutional classifications are one liberal arts college. Those are meaningless in this context. As our rankings. Rankings are totally meaningless for this community. Small liberal arts schools have amazing people and some of the most creative minds. And a single individual can be incredibly influential and prolific in Drupal development in the academy. And this was something that Bad Camp, Bay Area Drupal Camp, really brought home for me this past fall. You know we all came to that. Stanford came with like 20 people. We were just absolutely blown away with what Cal State Monterey Bay had done. Just really kind of blew the doors off of everything. So we really have to get over ourselves a little bit. And you know the prestige of institutions because that has really has no place in a community of developers. We're all peers. So to the question of how do we work together? A group of us at Bad Camp got together and we started talking about the features module. Can you raise your hand if you're familiar with the features module? For those of you who who aren't familiar is this really amazing technology for bundling your configuration choices. Content types, views, rules, permissions, all that stuff that you spend all of your time doing after you've installed Drupal. And that's the potential for the domain specific business logic. All of that can be bundled into a feature capital F. And that then becomes a portable installable module. Unzip drop and it behaves like a module. So there's maybe a little bit more to it than that. But it really works and it's really easy to get started with. So I am not near the top of the Drupal ninja ladder or whatever it's called these days. But it makes sense to me. And one of the things that we realized, so there was a table where we had people from University of California, Cal State, and Stanford, and we all realized that we had one or two projects that we were already working on that had components that could be released as features. And it's sort of done on us, why don't we do that? What would happen if we did? So we resolved to start sharing. And again, this has ties back into the fact that there is this commercial Drupal sphere with people that are interested in working with us and get what we're trying to do. And they are using features already as a part of their development practices. So we also have folks from Drupal companies that are interested in sharing these as well. So what would it like, what would it be like to start sharing features? I think we want it all. I don't think we want anything that's necessarily polished. I don't think we care what your release status is. We want messy, hasty, pluralism. Because the best way to have good ideas is to have lots of ideas. That wasn't me, that was Linus Pauling. So I'm thinking that we should run an academic features marketplace much like a bizarre style of development. Does anybody recognize that picture? Peter Chen, you're not allowed to answer this question. Yeah, I know. So that is the original Google server. So that was the, that was, that, this is the actual server that Larry Page and Sergey Brin assembled in their dorm room. They built it out of Legos and what appears to be some plastic from a overhead lamp. I'm sure the university does not care that they did that now. But what I wanted to point out by sharing this with you is that they didn't wait to have a perfect case and there's detail on the side. This is the part that I love. It's held together with packing tape. So I don't think we should wait for a perfect wrapper. I think we want to release early and it's okay if it's, if it's not perfect. So another, I think another instructive example is in, in his influential book on interactive design, Alan Cooper writes about how the post-it note was invented. There was, there's a worker at 3M who was in a church choir and he, he was tired of how his, he kept losing his bookmarks in his hymnal and he wanted to have a way to keep his bookmarks without hurting the pages. So he thought, he thought back to a failed adhesive that they weren't going to use because it wasn't sticky enough and it was perfect for making this, for this particular use case. So I think that's what we want. I think we want, we want post-it notes. We want to have a lot of things on the shelf. By pluralism we want to have not one canonical event calendar feature. Maybe we want a bunch of them because I think we can learn from each other by establishing a community of practice around this. And I don't think it's going to look like this. I think it's going to look like that. So, so the group that formed after bad camp, we've been talking about this. We want to focus on features-based development, kit-compliant features, and this is the community of practice part. We need to establish some, some common rules around atomicity and that is, you know, what are the boundaries of a feature? Just because you can include the kinsync with them should you. If they're going to be plug-and-play, what, what is the atomic unit of a feature like? So that they're, we maximize reuse. We're going to need to come up with some, some norms around namespaces, some general conventions about hosting and feature servers, things like this. So I think what we want is not a consortium, but an unconsortion. It's going to win by being unofficial and as members we want individuals, not institutions. And we have a lot of stuff we still have to figure out for a bizarre style features marketplace to work. We have a feature server up and running at Stanford. It's not very pretty, but it's up and there's one at Penn State. Can you raise your hand if you have a feature server running on your campus? Great. So if, if, so let's talk more about that after and just underscore that we, we really want a plurality of voices and if we can create a community of practice that links the islands of creativity across the academy and we start sharing code as well as ideas, I don't think there's a proprietary system they can compete with that. I just think that there's too many of us, there's too many good ideas and we understand our domain better than anybody. And if we're also experts in a flexible tool like Drupal, I don't, I don't, I can't imagine a single proprietary system that's safe from that. So, so I want to get started and I don't think we have to ask anybody else. We can decide right here that we have everybody we need in Denver and we want you to join us. So, thank you very much for your time. Oh yeah, there's a, there's a mic which I guess we're supposed to use. Thanks for your talk. I think it's very interesting. The thing that struck me about one of your last points about we don't need a single calendar feature, we don't need a single event feature or something like that. In my experience in my university, I think one of the things that freaks people out about Drupal a little bit and, and these are people who are not necessarily heavy duty technologists but people who are tasked with establishing websites for projects or departments and they're often people for whom technology is not actually part of their job description. What freaks them out is that there isn't one calendar feature or that there isn't one event feature and then when you start to explain to them the multitude of ways that they could accomplish feature X and, and you know I'm always thinking man it's so awesome that I can do this like five different ways. Their eyes glaze over and they're like could you just show me the way to do that so I can do it because I don't like thinking about those type things and I totally get where you're coming from but I'm, I'm really interested in where the cultural roadblocks are to adoption especially like at my institution but I'm sure this happens in other places and that is definitely one of them I think is a fear of options. So I think that's a really common story thank you for your question. So in my mind that's not the person I would want to send to, to this group. I want maybe you there and I think probably what will happen is that you know we'll know about the ten different options. You know maybe this one event feature has some workflow tied to it. You know maybe in that system there's a, there's a feed parser and things are not published by default and that doesn't make sense for this other use case. So we're going to know the right one to suggest I think and so I think we're still going to have some, some you know filtering we have to do and you know maybe we can you know maybe this marketplace will have a website around it and we'll have some sort of voting API or some sort of way to capture you know non-authoritative metadata about which one you'd use in which scenario. I mean I'd love to hear other people's ideas about that too. So I'm from Babson College and we've been doing a lot of stuff with Drupal and and we've been challenging Blackboard in their space because Drupal does so many, so many things a lot better. We, we're a business school so great discussions are a big deal and out of the box the forums module does, does better than than Blackboard does quite honestly and we've, we've souped up that functionality with lots of Ajax and stuff like that so there's expanding collapse and Mark has read that kind of thing and yeah actually I think Brian left from, oh he's right there, right. You actually know each other through, through online but I never knew what he looked like. We'll have to connect but, that's a great thing about a conference right? Yeah we were talking about how to, how to share. I don't really know what a features server is. I mean we've got some modules, do you share modules? So I wanted to introduce myself so we could continue the discussion and like I have a Drugal module which integrates with Google Docs. We have this idea that a lot of our documents should live in the Google space since a lot of us have been integrating with Google anyhow and if students have Gmail out of the box then why not have your docs right there and then in your Drupal site just list the docs and then you can, you can connect to Google Docs and view your document and you have collaborative, you have the collaborative space and collaborative documents right, right there. So Drupal does come from but Google you know I was copying their, their naming so you know where do we, where do we share Drupal? It's on Drupal.org but nobody knows it's there. So what's with the features server? How does that work? Well I think there might be some other folks in the room that are more qualified than I am to answer that question but, so feature server so it's a module. So you can go download it from Drupal.org, F server and it's one of the things that I would like to, this community to hopefully do is adopt that module and improve its documentation. So if it's configured right you can upload your features to your feature server and your, your GitHub flags inform how, how things get sorted in the feature server and it has all sorts of other functionality like I think feature modules can be updated via Drush just like regular modules. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a really pretty powerful architectural approach that I think has a lot of added benefits. So if you are then the maintainer of this feature, people around the country start using it. What happens when you, you know, you do a patch or you upgrade it to a new version. If it's all done properly on the ends people can just update the module. So that's pretty magic I'd say. So maybe we can, you know, huddle up and, and you know, a buff or something like that and talk more about that. Oh and for the Google Docs integration something that I would, I would encourage you to talk to the Monterey Bay guys. Talk to Kevin Miller, can I call you up. They've done some pretty amazing stuff with Open Atrium and the Google API. Hey Ryan. Do we have a name yet? Nope. I mean, other than unconference I know what you keep saying we need a name. No we don't have a name. So, so let's, let's figure that out. There are, there are probably what, like 10 of us or so? Yeah. We hang out, literally Google Hangout on a monthly basis or so. Thank you for the plug for Elms, quite honestly. I think what we need to do from here is kind of try to organize a lot of buffs. There have already been a couple and I see a lot of faces that haven't been at them. So if you're involved in education really need to get to the buffs because these conversations can get hashed out and unconference or unconsortions get formed and then you actually have meaningful lasting engagements with people. What you mentioned with the way too many solutions is definitely a fear that you have to get over or get other people over. The way that I've been able to do that is through a distribution model and being able to say like, look, there's a million different ways to make an intranet. Literally, there probably are. Here's one and people can actually stick to that and be like, oh, okay, it's awesome open atrium. Even though you're probably going to branch from that anyway, they don't need to know that. It's really important. Something that came up yesterday, does anybody here at the, we had a little education unconference yesterday, bunch of people? Something that came up yesterday was kind of the idea of almost getting to a point of social engineering to get these things through because our institutions are massive. They're not used to this kind of thing. You mentioned we have a system that's implemented done. You're like, no, that's not, we're not used to, you know, being agile for the most part. Really, the tools are all there. It's about getting people behind the tools and coming up with the right way of presenting the tools in Drupal because there's a major disconnect right now. I guarantee if this was a Moodle conference, there would be a ton more education people here just because of the assumption, whereas Drupal does not immediately trigger EdTech and we need to come up with a way of making that happen because it's not just my platform. It's a lot of other platforms that are starting to come out. You mentioned chapter 3. There's also Julio by FunnyMonkey, which is also a similar option. So there's all these solutions that are really at the cusp. Right now there's a hackathon going on in room 202 that I just kind of wanted to promote. We're auditing a module called Learning Registry, which will allow for the open publish of open courseware to a basically a search engine that is not owned by anyone. It's a government infrastructure. Oh, it's the .gov project, right? Yes. Yes. It's a .gov project, PBS, and a bunch of other NASA researchers are tying into it, but then you'd be able to actually produce learning materials in Drupal and automatically have them. You basically push a button and say send it to the learning registry and now anyone else connecting the Learning Registry can see that that course exists and get that information. Another project is Mozilla Badges, which probably had a few conversations with people who will actually terrify large institutions because it kind of runs counter to what we do. So it's kind of a distributed certification system, digitally signed. So we're working on it with Open Michigan. They have something I'm trying to get them to make a distribution called OERBIT that is an open educational resource house. It's very similar to what MATX is probably promoting, but they don't have the press behind it. And MATX, as you mentioned, doesn't really exist yet, which is kind of fun. I mean, hey, there's a platform coming. Do you know what it's written in? I don't know what it's written in. It's open source. That's neat. It doesn't exist. I've looked for it. I came here just for birds of a feather. I'm not really sure how to answer that. Yes, there's also that. Yes, so. Hey, Greg. Hey, Greg Poole from Cal State Monterey Bay. Along those lines, there was really a lot of similarities between what you were talking about and what I heard earlier in the transforming government talk about community of practice and also reuse and just not trying to reinvent the wheel. So there's a like-minded group of folks who probably are a little farther along. So if you want to check out that video, that presentation earlier this afternoon. And if I can plug what surprised Zac at Bad Camp is going to be talked about tomorrow at 1 o'clock by my colleague, Kevin Miller. We used OpenHRM and Drupal to create a portal for 6,000 users and 10,000 applicants. It's running quite nicely. And we're very proud of it. So check that out tomorrow. Yeah, you guys should be. It was really amazing when we saw that. And the other thing that really blew our minds was just how quickly you guys rolled that out too. It was pretty unprecedented. So yeah, I encourage everybody to go to that session. It's the OpenHRM, Kevin Miller session. OK, well, thanks, everybody. Hopefully we'll be talking more after this.