 Hi everybody and welcome back to our podcast from the Karma Sutra to 2020 where we look at your questions your concerns even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. So as always we have with us Dr. Anvita Madan Bihal. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Karma Sutra has to give. Welcome Anvita. Thank you Seema and welcome to our podcast this week. And with that today I have the most fascinating question for you. It's a question that I haven't been able to put a label on so you can't say that it's about three terms or it's about watching or it's about fetishes and fantasies. It's just a really really complex question and reading it as I read it to you you'll see what I mean. You realize how complex is our sexuality. You having made it a taboo subject over the years having tried to bring it back we tend to sort of pick up little things and try and answer them but it's not as straightforward as that. It's so much deeper. It's like we are as human beings with so much more complex. So this is from a young man who says that my wife and I are now in our late 40s and around 12 years back they had problems in their marriage and he says that somehow the two of them agreed to introducing somebody else into their bedroom so they wanted to go for a threesome. Now first it was a soft threesome and then it was full blown physical love making and he says slowly as was expected my wife and this other man became lovers generally with whether I was there or not they became lovers and I gradually eased out of this relationship but he says the strange part is that I'm a full-blooded male but in this threesome I became the submissive partner to both of them which I thought was a really fascinating idea that he becomes submissive to both of them and then he says that more than participating it was watching them that started to excite me and even today the only thing that excites me is the thought of my wife with this other man. It's almost as though I have started to feel like her through him so like he started to feel like the wife because of this other man and he says that he writes a diary for his self arousal every day which I just think is an amazing thing that how deep and self aware this man must be he says I write a diary for myself arousal every day where I act and feel like her and explain in detail my encounters with this other man as though I was the wife and then he finishes once again by reiterating by trying to assure maybe himself or maybe us that he is straight and he's wondering what is the reason for his behavior. I firstly just want to say what a shout out to such a reflective and thoughtful email you know the idea that somebody has thought so deeply about their sexuality in such a mature way so firstly a short shout out to you for such a lovely email. Secondly I want to say that you know when I first read the email my offer was going to be therapy because there's a lot there and I already have lots of ideas but because you had raised such important points that I'm sure many people are concerned about but are unable to articulate them see when I decided we'll take the email and you know divide it and normalize it for people because I'm sure they're struggling with similar things. Thirdly I want to normalize it you know sometimes you're very hesitant to share these things because we think oh we're the only couple and this is an anomaly that we are participating in but actually the sexual diversity is so wide and so diverse that if we went into people's bedroom we would see a lot of different behaviors and practices and they just feel uncomfortable sharing because they think oh people would see us with shame or taboo or stigma so thank you for bringing it up and it is completely normal to have sexual diversity and finally I hear the concern about you know that I am with another man I'm writing about having the how I feel based on the touch of another man the Kinsey report said that most of us are actually bisexual when they did the report you know like decades and decades ago people didn't come up in the heterosexual or the homosexual category they came up in the middle in the bisexual category because at some point in life everybody has had some feeling towards the same sex I'm not saying it might be actually physical but it might be in thought it might be somebody answers a restaurant and you think oh that person is so thought or you know you might have created intimate bond with somebody from the same sex which if it was the opposite sex you might consider it a relationship but because it's the same sex you just say oh they're friends or something like that but the intimacy might be there so don't worry about it your identity is your identity just because you are enjoying some test of you know touch or physicality or something does not make you not straight there is a lot of gray when we think about sexuality so don't worry about it absolutely I think that women actually acknowledge this a lot more easily women understand that they will look at another woman and they are quite happy to say oh my god she's so hot men find this more difficult to do I think there's more judgment around men being attracted by the body of another man yeah I think there's a lot of people I think there's a lot of fun people make a lot of judgment they tease more the harshness with which it comes like it feels like and also we have to remember that the male fantasy of women to women sex is something that they really you know think so that idea is okay but the male to male comes with a lot of harshness and I think that's why sometimes it is way tougher for men to come out or accept their feelings than it is for women and women are also seen to say oh they are just you know two are best friends and they're living together but two men living together is seen differently and with harshness so I think Anvita as I said this question has so many parts to it I want to actually begin with where he says that they bring another partner into their relationship but something in him changes with bringing this other partner and now lots of people have been writing to us about this idea of one partner wanting to bring a third person in one partner wanting to watch etc some of it is all consensual some of it isn't but let me just begin with this particular one he says that he's brought the person in but something inside him now has changed where he no longer wants to be participating in this threesome he wants to become the one who's watching and he wants to become submissive I mean it's a choice that he's making and I find that quite fascinating yeah absolutely and I think if they came to the therapy room what I would start with is that if it's working for both of them and it's consensual for both of them they can just go ahead with it they don't need to worry that it's different however what we need to understand is that when we introduce ideas like that it changes the contract between the partnership the partnership when it started or the marriage when it started the idea would have been that the man and the woman would have sex together now there's another person and is this actually impacting the relationship you know the wife has a new lover she is enjoying it that's great what has changed that she prefers that or you know he did mention jealousy but jealousy is not the only emotion are the other emotions that are there that he is feeling or she is feeling so we would explore that and this idea of submissiveness is very interesting because if I would have you know thought about how to plan the therapy I would have said what is the need that this fantasy is fulfilling you know and there could be a whole lot of range we don't need to think that there would be one or the other there could be control there could be power there could be feelings of vulnerability there could be jealousy they could be you know anger there and this man has done the work and said it's the need to feel submissive now where is this need to feel submissive coming from is it an individual need or is it a relationship need is something happening in the relationship and he feels that need or are other things happening in his life and he feels the need this need to be fulfilled so we would really dig deeper and deeper and deeper and understand this better because I wonder if this is the I guess it's not always the case that the person who wants to watch your their partner having sex with somebody else is not always about feeling submissive a lot of times like you said it's about control there's somebody who'd written in a while ago it's saying that her husband wants to bring other partners into the relationship the difference is that the one he wants to bring multiple partners in so he wants to fantasize and watch her having sex with a lot of people but also she's not she's not happy with it so she said that when it first the idea was brought up it was exciting it was arousing you know to think that okay you know a multiple partner thing it's it's an instant arousal for a brief while and she said having thought about it it's definitely not something that she wants to it makes her feel ill to think that she would actually do it and she's got to that point because when she said okay I don't want to do it he's insisted on the fantasy he hasn't given up and in saying it over and over it's come to the forefront of her head that she feels nauseous I mean she wants to throw up at the thought of it so you know is there some advice that we can give to people like that having seen this relationship can we give some advice to people who are in this situation where it's not consensual but they're being pushed so you know what's really important to look at when we think of this relationship what started as a mutual fantasy you know it was arousing it was exciting for her and every day it has very quickly moved to his fantasy you know she no longer enjoys this practice or this behavior she no longer enjoys this sexual fantasy of having other partners in the bedroom whereas it is his fantasy and in some ways he's imposing it on her so once you get forced into something you won't enjoy it my as in in some ways I haven't met the couple and I don't know what's happening but the advice always will be if you don't like a fantasy say no because you know for the health for the health of the relationship if you feel you will say yes here I can promise you that there'll be other parts of the relationship that will get impacted you will be caustic or angry about something else you might start you know getting there might be fights over what food is going where are we going or something just because there is anger here because you're not being able to say no here you're going to get angry at other points so for the relationship health say no and one thing we want to I just want to address and maybe we'll go deeper into it as we explore it this idea of coercion you know people use all kinds of things to say oh you know experiment you are so naive you don't have any sexual desires I really want to teach you more about sex at least try it once there are all these things but remember you don't you can try things if that's we are nature but otherwise I don't need to go bungee jumping just because I've never tried it like I know bungee jumping is something I won't enjoy so I don't need to go bungee jump just to experiment and let the other person know that I hated it you know so go with your guard go with your instinct yeah absolutely because I know that in this other relationship they had written she had written to say that you know he keeps saying this is all I'm asking of you I'm not asking anything else this is all I'm asking and if you loved me and then he told her that it's because you're sexually repressed you don't know that you'd enjoy it you have no idea you will probably so I think there's a lot of coercion but Amita in a case like that where this thing has gone on it's it's been several months that she's had to put up with this kind of verbal attack almost what is the advice that you would give her to say to stand up for herself she doesn't want to do it what's the what's practical yeah impossible I can really hear you know many times when we work with women there would be you know they come to therapy rooms and we would say that's complete emotional manipulation you know they would they you know they would be told all these things but in such a loving way you know when you say it it seems like oh my god this man is like really bringing sexual revolution into her life you know it comes across like that but in reality they are being pushed into something they don't enjoy or they don't like there are other ways to give space and time for somebody but when we are getting emotionally manipulated or coerced I can promise you that very few women can actually see it they see it as oh this my husband being so loving and caring which husband says you know you know experiments sexually and everything most husbands are conservative look at my husband so amazing that's where we are we cannot see it you need friends you need therapists you need other people who can you know who can support you who can help you who can make you see no actually I don't think he's really being loving here I think he's being manipulative here but you need that outside voice so don't feel like you need to feel embarrassed or shamed by it what we started with diversity in bedrooms don't feel weirded out by it go share and talk because that's the only way to know if it is true love in somebody being concerned or its manipulation I think that's extremely good advice I think that we all come from a background where talking about sexuality and pleasure is taboo and with this taboo with this silence that we impose on things we make it so much more difficult for people who are suffering with it and so much easier for the person who's perpetrating it and so I guess Anvita what you're saying is that if you're in this situation where you're being told don't keep it to yourself a lot of women a lot of men when they're told something like this and it's not consensual they tend to keep it closed within themselves because they feel if we say it to somebody it'll be dishonoring ourselves like you know it's people will judge us and they probably will you know there's a bunch of people out there who would probably point fingers and say or whatever but the point here is don't worry about that minority of people who are likely to be judgmental find yourself somebody to talk to don't keep it you know this whole identity of the good person the good woman who never repeats these things because this is all supposed to be kept hidden talk about it it is essential for your mental health and your physical health and I would actually say that you know sometimes both men and women the reason that they don't say it is not only disordering themselves they feel what will people think about my partner what kind of man is he and they're really protecting their partner you know they're really protecting and saying oh when people will think what kind of woman she is or what kind of man how can I people will question our relationship question people will question how am I with this person so they then feel a very strong sense of the need to protect their partner because they think that you know and I really want to tell people there is more to one person just because it's not working in one area doesn't mean that the person is not nice in 10 others so you can work through those issues in some ways so don't feel that all your friends will disown this partner or something like that people understand that just because there are anger issues doesn't mean there are not other goodnesses in somebody. Absolutely and I think you make a very valid point that it's about people judging your partner and then thinking how can you be with this person so it's the self-judgment. So Amitabh one of the other things that he brings up which I think is really interesting because I don't think a lot of people do that where he says that he's actually keeping a diary for himself so even though he's talking about his submissiveness and his desire to be submissive he's getting worried about it but he's also recording it and I think that both of us will say that people feel submissive or dominant at different times and there's absolutely nothing unusual in that is that. Yeah I think sometimes it really gets complex for men and my heart goes out to them because you know the idea is always that the woman needs to be submissive and now the role reversal of actually enjoying being submissive to another man and to the woman or feeling like taking on her role and you know and automatically we go through the concerns of is this to do with gender is it to do with sexuality my identity and I'm not saying that's not how people start it could be in some cases but in other cases it's about a role you're enjoying a role maybe you don't get to play that role and it is just something that feels good you actually enjoy it and we need to realize that because we are raised very stereotypically boys are allowed something and girls are allowed something we never really get to experiment or be in a certain way and maybe this is the first time you're actually experiencing this role and it feels good like it just feels good. So actually going on from that point about roles so we had one person remember who wrote into us and said that her partner suggested that they bring more people into the relationship and she went with it quite because she wanted to please him and she thought yes well why not let's try because he kept saying you like it but after she started doing it and it was going fine I think he changed the rules a little bit where he decided that watching was something that he enjoyed more and she was not at all happy with this because she felt that that's something that she hadn't signed up for. Yeah I think the email that I remember is that they had gone to swinging clubs together and she actually thought maybe that's something that she's not experimented but once again they were doing something as a couple you know they had decided to go watch or be at swinging clubs as a partnership and then the suggestion was that he would watch now that wasn't part of her you know that's not what she wanted to do we have to remember that we all have our values our beliefs our behaviors or whatever we like about our own sex and sexuality and what if you started with the idea saying that I want to be monogamous in a relationship so that wasn't part of the contract that oh suddenly I'll be having sex with other men and somebody would be watching so that is something that if you're not comfortable with you know if you're not comfortable that you're being coerced or made into doing things that are not your fantasy or your desires then you have every right it doesn't mean you're sexually repressed it doesn't mean that just go with what are your desires they can be communication if your partner likes something and you can have an open mind and you can consider it but considering and forcing yourself into something are two different things and drawing the boundaries I guess is quite important because like you said you you kind of go this far and you say okay I've done this and I like it but this bit I did not sign up for and I think for that it's really important to start being a little bit more open about sex and sexuality generally because how do you know that yes this is what's happening to me and I absolutely do not want this to happen you know you even have to be able to find the words for it and find the strength to stand up to your partner for that and I think that that's really really crucial and it all comes down to the fact that you need your support system and something that you talk about quite often the communication well I was just going to say you know when you were when a thought came to my mind it is so especially in the South Asian context where women are not told to be sexual or to read about sexuality or discuss it with their friends or anything it is so easy for somebody to come and say oh you don't know I know and this is what you should be doing you should really try this right like it's so simple to say that and the other person will say yeah I do I didn't even know how to have sex and you know this is the first time I've had sex so it is really easy but I think a key to any relationship and you know I would really to the person who sent the email is the communication share it talk about it look deeper you know and if you're communicating you will come up the intimacy will grow and you will understand each other's perspective it will not come as a rejection but it will come more as an in understanding or you would come up with something creative you know you would come up with like okay we will go we as a couple will watch someone if you feel aroused by that but it doesn't need to be me and then we can come back and we can you know now that you'll be aroused we've come back and have sex so there can be solutions that you can come up with as and when if if that is not something that you want to engage with that's one solution that I just had on the top of my head but I'm just saying that if you communicate if you discuss if you really try and understanding each other's perspective you would actually see your relationship become stronger and the love making become better and I think I'd like to add to that that when we use the word communication it's not something that's going to work just because you said it and the other person has heard it it doesn't work like that if you are saying no and somebody else really once said they're going to push they're going to course they're going to keep trying and trying and it's not going to be that easy to get to that point so build the strength in your head get an outside support system and you have to stick to that you know like the the final breakdown will only come when the communication breaks down so while you have the ability to communicate keep that open so I guess in finishing what we're saying is that if this is consensual then it is entirely a decision that you get to make if you feel aroused by watching somebody of the same sex in a sexual act don't worry there's nothing wrong with that we are all bisexual to some extent and also an arousing act is arousing at any level number three if it is something that you absolutely do not wish to try please say so stick to that find the strength you cannot find the strength to stick to it to stand up to your partner yourself do confide in somebody else don't think that this is what will people say about me and this is terribly bad it's not something that you should be taking on as your fault to do and finally the fact that if somebody feels like indulging in a role of submissiveness there is absolutely nothing wrong with that absolutely there's something almost beautiful in that role that you take it when you take it on so don't feel nervous or judged or bad about it feel good because you've experimented with something new and found something that you like yeah and you know honestly if you're enjoying it if that is something that is working for you and your partner and it has worked for your relationship don't worry if there are things that are just nudging or troubling or something's not working you can communicate with your partner talk about it or seek therapy and you're just ironing out those little bit of those wrinkles that might have erosive and that's and that's fine every relationship has bumps in it and they can be worked through so as always do like comment subscribe on the video your questions should be sent into info.cma.ana.gmail.com and if you need to get in touch with Anvita about a consultation she is on anvita madan behel.com we will see you next week see you next time