 Are we finally entering a new era of journey mapping? Why are organizations transitioning to journey management? And how can you benefit from this? Stick around for all the answers. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Johan. And this is the service design show episode 167. Hi, my name is Marc van Tijn. And welcome back to the service design show. We explore what's beneath the surface of service design. What are the hidden and invisible things that make the difference between success and failure all to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business and of course our planet. Our guest in this episode is Johan van der Veer. Johan is the CEO of Daydo. Daydo is a unique online platform that helps companies to manage and organize around journeys at an enterprise scale. Recently I got the opportunity to have lunch with Johan and what emerged from that lunch was a partnership between Daydo and the service design show, something that I'm extremely excited about. Not only because this support from Daydo is going to help me keep on creating more and better content for you this year, but also because we're going to launch a few initiatives together for you and one of them is going to already be announced in this episode. So ever since the start of the service design show, we've talked about journey maps and journey mapping extensively. Every service design professional knows that a journey map is not at deliverable. It's a means to an end. That's literally the thing we talked about on the very first episode. Well, the reality is that this was way easier said than done. For a very long time it proved to be very challenging to turn journey maps into practical business tools that could be used for decision making to often create a journey map that didn't survive beyond a single project. But today we are starting to see the signs of a new area emerge. Journey maps are spreading far and wide in organizations that demand to understand the journey is growing from top management and we are connecting more and more parts of the business to the journey. That's a great success and something that we only could hope for at just a few years ago. So now the journey maps are starting to pop up everywhere throughout organizations. A new set of challenges is emerging. How do you connect all these journeys? How do you find the most important improvement in innovation opportunities? And how do you help everyone inside the organizations to work with them effectively? Like I said, they do provides a platform that helps organizations to put journeys at the heart of their operation at an enterprise scale. Which means that Jochem and his team see organizations make this transition from journey mapping to journey management from close up. This gives them a unique perspective on what's needed to make this a success and what the pitfalls are when you try to make this leap in maturity. So I invited Jochem on the show to share some of his most important insights with us and that's what's coming up in this conversation. But that's not all because in this episode we're also going to announce the launch of the Journey Management Index. A simple tool that is going to help you understand where and how you can improve your journey management capabilities and also benchmark yourself against your competitors and your colleagues. You can find the link to the Journey Management Index in the show notes of this episode but I really encourage you to first listen to the conversation with Jochem for some useful context. As you've heard, a lot is coming up in this conversation so make sure you sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Jochem van de Veer. Welcome to the show Jochem. Hi Marc. Hey, good to see you here on the show. Good to have you on. We've been in touch for quite a while but it never got to this conversation and now there are some special occasions to have this chat but before we dive into that, Jochem could you give a brief introduction of what your day looks like these days? Who are you? What do you do? And I wanted to say why are you here but let's not talk about that yet. Who are you and what do you do? So today I am the CEO at Datoo or Journey Management Solution going to talk about that at length but I've been like transforming businesses from the inside as a service designer first as a background in UX design and later as a service designer helping them to basically work customer centric across teams and instill a culture of human-centered design or at least user-centered design in a company. I have two kids. My wife is expecting the third in a few weeks or we are. So besides working hard I'm having a ton of fun at my home where there is a full house coming. The business is called Family. The business is called Family. But my wife is running that as a CEO so we have clear split between us. Nice. And you're one of the few guests I think it's maybe a list of 10 that I've actually met and have been able to have a lunch or a dinner with so this is also a special occasion. Jochem, we do have like a special lightning round five questions for you as well to get to know Jochem as a person next to Jochem as a professional just the first thing that comes to your mind brief answers, quick answers let's see what comes out. Are you ready? I am ready, let's go. Jochem, what was your first job? It was a paper boy when I was 14 or paper it was like those ad magazines in the streets. Okay, yeah. If you could be an animal, which animal would you like to be? That's a tricky one. I think I'll go for Giraffe having overview. Nice. If you could work from anywhere in the world what place would you pick? It's also a tricky one. Building a remote company I always thought I'll be anywhere and work from anywhere and I have been working in many places but right now I'm sitting in the back garden and I really enjoy it so I think I'll stay here. Yes Yeah, that's not enough right on that. If you could recommend a book to someone, which book would you recommend? Good strategy bad strategy I think you listeners are familiar with it I don't know It's a really good book I can talk about it but that's the one Yes, good strategy, bad strategy I see the cover title and the cover Riddler is the writer I'm not sure Black and White book, I think it was recommended also in Leon Hovernation episode 110 11 something like that Anywho Final question, traditional question Do you recall the first moment you learned about service design? Yeah, I was actually working as a UX designer and someone said you're not a UX designer, you are a service designer and I was like hang on a minute and turned out I was designing this project but it took the whole service or the whole customer experience into perspective which was logical to me but then people slapped a label on it and I started digging so it was about 8 years ago I think it was doing the work at a large corporate as an external designer so that was when I discovered it When you entered the rabbit hole and you never get out I don't know, I'm still discovering it It's like Hotel California of service design like you can enter but you'll never leave Alright, thanks for adding this context now you already mentioned something about Deidu, you already mentioned something about journey management but we have to sort of also mention that the fact that your partner this year of the service design show which is I'm super excited about and I think this gives us an opportunity to do a lot of fun things it's not the only reason why you're on the show now that you've partnered with us but it's definitely for me it's an interesting thing because you have such a relevant topic as Deidu as Jochem, I know how you've been thinking recently so I thought this would be a good kickoff of our partnership and it's not going only to be about this episode, we're going to continue working together throughout the entire year, helping people not just in this episode but in many more so, yeah, this partnership let's briefly talk about that because I'm also curious from your perspective I know why I'm excited about this but why did you think it was a good idea to join up forces with the service design show so I will answer it in two parts because the rabbit hole you mentioned is like, when you start digging in like how the role of service design is changing and how we as service designers are actually used or propelled forward to change the phase of business these days we as Deidu also started to look into like who is actually benefiting from journey management we'll define it in a second and then we saw like the service design community was big and then when you flip it around and think like who is actually driving this, who are the most important people there and we were always inspired by you and I was personally like following you for years I'm figuring out like, hey, what is he saying what are we doing, where is this field going so now that we have a chance to collaborate and take this one step further I'm very excited about this but also flattered to be in your show and be talking about this so that is one thing that I'm wanting to share with you and the other part is that the shift is happening from we as a group of service designers are doing service design much like where we as UX designers were like a decade, 15 years ago seen as like oh they are doing the nice imagery on the website and they're making stuff nice and beautiful, no, we're an integral part of the organization, we represent the customer, but we also as service designers take into account the business aspects of the problems we try to solve having the holistic view so making sure that this is going to be a sustainable motion in the business, propelled by our customer journeys, but by making sure business design is actually the way we're going to move forward it has fantastic to be part of that and help people to create impact because that's ultimately what we all want to do for the customer, for the business for ourselves, so yeah I'm very excited to be partnering with you on this trajectory. Awesome, yeah I want to see where we are at the end of the year, we have some ambitious plans to help this community one thing you mentioned and a phrase that stuck with me is helping people to go from journey mapping to journey management, we're also launching the journey management index, more about that in a second but now that we've mentioned journey management a dozen times already without giving a proper definition, let's talk a little bit about that, what's journey management? So it's a management philosophy, it's a way of doing things, let me start there and there's many flavors to it, if I had to define it it is about putting the customer's journey in the center of the HR business and organizing around it, now to do that you need to have proper research practices, you need to be able to plan it out, you need to be able to design these journeys, you need to be able to measure them, optimize them, use them to influence decision making and basically rally the troops around the customer journey and because we know that there's not just one journey like an end to end journey, there's in most organizations many journeys, dozens if not hundreds to manage and to do that on a scale we just can't just visualize our journeys and say this is it, here's the 2B version we want to be at and then magically have change happened, we need to be meticulous about managing every step of all these journeys, how are we finding the opportunities for growth, for innovation for us to say this is what we're going to do next and know exactly why because it's rooted in the customer experience, so businesses are now adopting this new management philosophy, putting the journey first and organizing around it and I think that is what we mean with the term journey management is being able to work as one, impacting the customer experience by putting the customer journey front and center. Now, I'm sure you've explained the story quite often and when you get a response where people are confused between well isn't like, what's the difference between journey mapping, journey management how do you quickly define that? So journey maps, journey mapping is a process or a tool, if you will that has been around for 3 decades almost and it is common, people know of it, people know how to do it there's practices around it, but the end result is a map which clearly is not the territory, it's just a map like, hey this is what customers go through this is what they experience, perhaps you go a step further turn it into blueprint where you say like this is how we are organized to make this journey a reality here's the opportunities that we have identified but the map is not the goal the map is just a tool to get people to make progress towards impacting the customer experience toward making their business be relevant, stay relevant be competitive or outpace the competition so journeys are essential in journey management but they are not the goal so you need your journeys, you need to understand them you need to research them and design them so you have an understanding of how they are but then you need to take a process from let's say insight in those journeys to implementing new solutions and be able to do that across teams and that is where the management aspect comes in I usually think in metaphors I had just somehow works that way and analogies and what I'm seeing here if I take it to the product space and transitioning away from services and journeys like our map would be a blueprint of a product or of a building maybe architecture, let's say architecture we have a visualization or a construction drawing of a building that's the journey map that's the visualization but then in order to actually get that building into the world you need engineers, construction workers, logistics HR finance right? is that a valid analogy? where does it break? yeah I think so too I think it is but then we have to acknowledge that construction as a field, as a practice is constantly evolving but there are rituals there is a way of doing things there are skyscrapers we've built and the principles are the same for all these skyscrapers we're gonna build a new building sure you're gonna start with a blueprint you need all these people to be able to work to make it happen but in the world we already agreed to this is the way we build skyscrapers so in the business world we haven't agreed to this is the way we manage the customer experience people are working in their projects people are working in their product environment they're chasing vanity metrics they have their KPIs they have their blinders on they're not agreed on a company level or maybe as a business level this is the way you manage customer experience you put the journey first and then you organize around it and I think that is where the analogy is good and also shows where today's business priorities might break down when you put the journey first could it be that the journey I wanted to say it's a blueprint for how the organization should be modeled but that's not it the organization is modeled in order to facilitate something so that doesn't that doesn't really work so in our conversations prior to this you mentioned a few times there was something like a journey management stack and that got me curious I have a software engineering background I like the word stack can you elaborate a bit on that yeah, tech refers to the tech stack so how do you make stuff happen so you have this level all the way to maybe your code base or event driven architecture all the way to the actual customer experience and the tools you use to actually make that happen journey management can be also expressed in like a tech stack so you need that base layer that visual layer that everyone in the organization is able to use and with everyone I mean the change part of the organization make no mistake I think working in let's say taking the train tickets in trains are they useful in working in journeys when we are talking to the service design community I don't know, not really but the change organization they all need to have the same reality the same understanding of what those journeys are and then you want to measure these journeys your data and you want to make sure that your project management software your product management software also is to these journeys and the data you track the events you get back the measurements you do the surveys you analyze also get stored in different systems and these inputs these data need to flow back into the journeys where they are actually having the context to understand what it means so that is maybe a little bit more conceptual what I mean the tech stack but putting the journey in requires us to have the right tools in place to be able to manage them it's almost like the dream that we've maybe already been talking about for a decade but somehow people first had to get used to the idea of journeys journey mapping, journey maps get excited about it, it became sort of the poster child of the service design community for good or for bad and now we're sort of seeing okay what else do we need to actually move beyond the visual image and again I think this conversation has been going on for a decade but now we're sort of slowly but surely starting also once to get the tools to the organization building an appetite to actually do this one of the questions I had here on my notes is what problem does journey management solve how would you describe that the simplest definition would be solve cross-functional alignment or decision making because I mean there's no shortage of frameworks to make good decisions to prioritize but agreeing on what is right on a systemic level for business that's really hard if you also want to make sure that your customer agrees right if it's just internal to the business I mean agile as a way of working as a philosophy with all its rituals and its processes and its organization all roles and people finding their places in the system that work really really well but we forgot about the customer's perspective so how do you map that on to something that we all want to do but it's very hard to get to and I think that is where it is starting to break down or becoming interesting to see where it can lead next for us it makes a lot of sense to organize around the journey right we've been preaching this for many years like I said if it's that clear what do you feel what do you feel is stopping organizations from adopting this sooner and everybody has their own path management philosophy they're like okay we are a product center company I'm curious how you talk about data, is it a service company or is it a product company well I'll give you a brain cracker we're a product company I mean we're a digital product a platform if you go right you can build on it you can use it and then without our help you can set it up so we're a digital product in the SaaS space which is software as a service that's where it gets ambiguous but anyway I would say we're a product company but the way that I've seen our companies adopt is that digital enterprise that have a huge service component to delivering their value to customers are easily adopting it but also leading cloud 100 product companies they also need better tools for internal alignment to put the customer in the center and it's not like enough to put the customer inside in the center we have a big inside now we're going to rally the troops and we're going to build something that solves that or addresses it it is about maintaining that we're going to build things across teams having rituals around how do we make decisions and what is important for the customer and the business and if there's nothing that unifies the two it will still be like or it's to product focus or it's to business focus or it's to customer focus and therefore it's almost like charity so product companies traditional legacy enterprise service enterprise everyone is actually looking into the same problem which is like how do we put the business it's less relevant it's all about the customer experience and I think that is the hard part as well you need to do some hard work to recreate reality to understand how these journeys are actually reflecting the things people do and feel about engaging with your brand or company in all these different levels so you don't need to have all these hundreds of journeys mapped out right before you start you can start with a few and that is the smart move I see company state like start with a few where there's influence where there's momentum and then build it out but you need to do some legwork upfront to get it right you can't just say this is a journey and this is how it's run you need to talk to customers research them bring all the insights and the data together to get an understanding if you start out small and I can totally see how that is a viable strategy you're trying to work journey centered customer experience centered in an organization that is still build on a different to work in a different way like doesn't that break down so far I haven't seen it break down but it is definitely breaking walls right it is making possible things that were before but you need to have some business case you need to have some initial results and you better get them fast because again service designers for us it's a no brainer to work journey first or to work journey let even to the rest of the organization is like but how and does it even work and is it actually driving more revenue or how does it you know make the bottom line be be better I mean those are the things that you can solve so take a few projects and actually show how you impact the customer experience what it did for the customer how it drove revenue or how it reduced friction in whatever experience or delivery and also show how you can do is affect effectively together faster I mean in most organizations there are projects three different projects that try to do the same thing where teams didn't even know that they were trying to do the same thing so if you can remove that you're going to have one of those projects and the other two teams can do other things like visualizing that is already impactful so there's many ways to do this but you do need to show that value to people who don't believe in it at face value and that is one of the big challenges we talk a lot about that on the show here and it's an ongoing conversation and luckily we sort of have the momentum I think as a community and more people are willing to take a gamble or take a take our word for it initially and that's a good sign now one of the other things that got me really excited to work with you guys is and girls probably I hope so not just a guy coming is you have a perspective on maturity and journey management maturity or journey maturity or I think you call it customer excellence maturity different levels that help organizations and people practitioners think through where they are and how they can improve I think that's one of the things currently sort of lacking and really it's very opaque like yeah I'm doing journey mapping and what's next so that got me excited to talk to you and we're using sort of your definitions of maturity to drive the journey management index that we're going to launch after this episode but let's talk about those maturity levels because one how did you get to them and two what are they so we are still in the process of finding how it's actually playing out in organizations so this is based on the work we've done as first service designers helping these companies transform from the inside and now we're even productizing it with the journey management index so service designers also have another tool to say if we want to be journey led and we call it journey excellence right that basically means like everything we do as a company is organized around the journey how we measure how we plan we align we work how we basically create anything of value so that is journey excellence and I would even say we as they do are not even there even though we know exactly how it should be run it's really really hard to get it right so that is like the mature organizations they have mastered journey management now at the other end of the spectrum and that's where a lot of organizations came from but I don't see that many of them anymore it's like everything is intuition driven there's like journeys all over the place or not even mentioned of journeys but it's like oh yeah maybe we make a customer journey for this project or maybe someone has a hunch and gut feel is talking about it so that is like the other end but going from like this intuition driven environment to starting to bring pockets of the organization in line with each other so what we see is the fragmented landscape of hey some teams are using journeys as the reference point other teams are not but once these teams start to coordinate the journey is the level at which they do this and that's when we see coordination emerge and usually I mean we're a product company we're a platform if you don't have any need for journey management or you're not maturing into this kind of new dimension of business there is no reason to find a tool there's no reason to find a service designer to help you get there but once this connection is starting to happen it's like the middle of those three layers people start to connect the dots and that's where there's a need for hey if we're going to scale this up everything needs to be journey led and things need to be named in the same way need to be connected in the same way need to be aligned in the same way and that's actually the step between like level three and level four where we really see this like scale takeoff where all teams are starting to work in the same way where standardized processes are embedded and decision making is done in the same way across these journeys and that is where we have seen some companies actually are already in their end to end customer experience management having this mature organization that supports these journeys from insight to implementation or supports teams to work in the same way and that's a really cool thing to see so it's really based on research and experience and now we're codifying the things we learn so others can say if you're at step three or level three as an organization how do you progress what are the things you need to invest in what goes really well okay those you don't need to invest in like maybe there's good tools and processes but your culture is not there and then you know exactly what to do next to understand how to get to the next level of maturity so on an organizational level I'm talking about I don't know if this was useful I mean we're going to share like how these levels working in detail I guess over time but the five levels again from intuition to fragmentation going to be coordinated all the way to getting that skill in the organization and then ultimately leading up to journey excellence is what we're talking about we're doing this as a video but also as audio so we can't show the actual model but it's going to be available on the journey management index and it's also available on your website so I'll make sure to add all the links there what I find interesting and what gets me excited about majority models in general is that they give you stepping stones so they help you to see how you can progress and get better without having to make a giant leap from being nowhere to being like at the ultimate stage and which you're describing are very logical steps easy easy to understand I wouldn't say easy to implement maybe always but easy to understand and that gives confidence, it gives guidance it gives a roadmap, it gives you sort of a mandate to ask for budgets to invest maybe extend your team and having said that correct me if I'm wrong but where I'm seeing they do be is when people start to when journey maps and mapping is already sort of inside the organization people are doing it sort of ad hoc maybe or doing the best again but there is no coordinated center of expertise like everybody is doing it slightly differently it's hard to exchange journey maps because one is in PowerPoint the other one is in Excel and the other one is made in a different tool and there is no like layer above that helps you with orchestration, connections what your colleagues do and when you start to when you actually want to do this and when multiple people see hey department XYZ is also doing something with journey maps let's connect then you need to find common ground both in language in tools and structures and processes and I feel that they do is helping and playing a role there yeah I totally agree and I see that as one before like okay you mentioned like PDF and Excel a lot of work now is done in the whiteboard tools right like a Myro, Fig Jam or R and Neural and that's great that's where you need to start to get some stuff in place but then you start to break down because there is like v1.6.2 there is like 20 different boards where you have all these different information and versions and then you have all these different layers and sessions and inputs and it really gets messy and that's the point when we see teams going to like a journey management solution like they do because they need something to maintain this workflow that they are trying to create in tools that are not necessarily designed for that so that is what we see but before we tried to take a stab at this this was already a big problem so it's not saying like hey this is our job is just to accelerate that and say like hey you are doing an amazing job here is the next step and this is what you can do next have you considered going into for instance taking all these opportunities from your journeys put them on a scatterplot and start to influence decision making in your organization and it's like hey okay now I see how I can connect the dots between journeys that on like flat solution like a whiteboard wasn't obvious where I could collaborate but not necessarily manage and have progress as a guiding principle so I think that is definitely where we play and where we see a lot of organizations that are reaching that step now then ultimately go into okay good journeys work for us now let's take it to the next level yeah and I like what you say that it needs to help decision making and I think that's one of the biggest challenges with just a journey map that it gives you insights and it sort of guides decisions but it doesn't help you to connect across departments to like you said it to really be a business to it journey maps unfortunately are still very much a space for researchers for designers and they should be like it should get into the hands of financial controllers marketing people and they need different kinds of insights different kinds of visualizations different kinds of dashboards not just a journey overview yeah that's right and I can give you an example that I was not there when getting that feedback but our CXO Martin was working with Polestar one of the EV companies that is doing an amazing job and also like designing everything across teams with journeys and they said like they do is amazing in getting on that inside level and making sure that you know everything is visible and people start connecting the dots and we can work but where you need to go next and I think this is the obvious one is you want to be like managing the impacts of what we as service designers offer so naturally we're following the service design path right from being like in the corner making decisions, making across teams helping the board of directors or the executives see what needs to be seen that's where we're now but the next step is actually like creating a dedicated practice around servicing customer insights and making decision making across all these teams possible using the lens of journey so I think that's a natural progression of where we'll go next that's super interesting because you don't know that but the previous episode 166 was about CX governance and I can totally see how that would also like merge into everything that they do is enabling like you need a governance structure for instance to do something with the insights with the results with well everything that comes out yeah is governance on your agenda like do you hear people talking about that depends on which organization you're from like the word is pretty loaded but you need it I like to think of it as guidance so you need to have top-down support whether it's from your management senior management or even on the board I mean in five years from now we'll look back into this episode like yeah of course we have a chief journey officer but today that's not happening in organizations yet so having the support from the top of your organization to say like yes customer experience I mean that's a no-brainer for everyone to focus on the customer experience I think we're past that station but executing that and making sure that everything flows like a nested structure rather than to like being a fragmented structure I think that's where you need that support where there needs to be like some sort of governance or at least like a room to explore or commitment from senior management to say like this what we're going to do and that translates obviously into like playbooks works of working standard operating procedures I've seen in some organizations get developed depending on you know what type of business you are that is absolutely necessary but it doesn't say that it must be in place when you start you can also create these artifacts that help senior leadership to say okay okay I get it I get what we need to do now I'm going to help you support this that can also be a way of doing it. Yeah let's listen to this episode of five years time and see where we are I'm a voice in the back of my head was saying hold on like maybe if I was listening to this episode right now something would be saying like oh there we go another shiny new tool that I need to add to my stack and this is going to be the silver bullet and oh yeah surely like when isn't it the right time for people to adopt a tool like they do like when would you advise against signing up do you understand what I mean because it can be so tempting like oh man I don't know it looks good and it's new and my manager always likes new things and then it always ends up in failure and disappointment and what's the other word fear I don't know so when would you discourage somebody from actually stepping into data yeah it's a good question and at the beginning when we started this company by the way we never intended to create a product company a platform we were just doing consultation and we realized how hard it was to align around the journey after like the project was done and we moved to a next team or different organization so we created data to serve our consultancy to make our consultancy better and then our customer said can we have it so with that insight we're doing almost everything at data and you know it boils down to being user centered or customer centered if you will but helping people to find data is something we invest in marketing for instance but it means that we don't get people that don't need us we're not going to like venture into the big accounts of this world say like hey have you heard of journey management we should talk to you do you want it it's not like dog food solution but it's like we are here can try the product it's free does it give you value great that we can talk because we're a commercial organization we would love to have your business but only if you need it and it breaks down or boils down to again like how mature is your organization to support it because what I've seen I've seen some service designers who know every little detail about our practice and and are really good at influencing in organizations but sometimes they're just a team of one and then the rest of the organization is like process oriented or maybe like still figuring out with what agile actually means to them so then it's a really hard sell and it's really hard to get it in place and then you're better off with just having visual journeys to communicate and to make sure that people get ready for it so in that case it's not like we say bye bye you can still make journeys in data but I don't think this is a this is the right place for that organization so I think that is a good way to to lead that in and our teams do a great job in helping people understand like where are we as an organization can it succeed and if we're going to start do we need to start big small and then how big so I think that's that's some work we do and guide people to to assess that of course everybody is welcome to try it out like you said and even if you want to visualize a journey map you can do that but what I'm hearing in your story is people who benefit the most will be people who want to mature to the next level who need orchestration, coordination and like connect journeys that doesn't exclude the other group but I think that's where you sort of can add even more value. If there is momentum around journeys and customer journeys in your organization that's the right time to dig in because you will need all the teams to collaborate and whether you're a designer starting this up there's probably some folks from CX that already can join and they speak the same language there are some people from product management who probably say like ah yeah of course we need to do this and I want to be part of this and then you get this snowball rolling so that's that's the typical constellation we see sometimes it's more marketing related but really like if there's designers specifically service designers involved and your organization has some momentum around loading the customer journeys or thinking about them that's a good place to start thinking about a solution to actually get it to the next level. Yeah and also what I've seen is once journey maps and just the journey once that idea starts to take ground inside an organization it can scale really quickly and you might get in trouble if you start using or if you don't have a strategy for migrate to a solution or a tool that helps you to scale as well because you won't be able to get I don't know 100 colleagues to work together in MIRO so that's something to think about you could start out with simple tools that get you up to speed quickly but you have to have a strategy to scale and and that's maybe something interesting to keep in mind being mindful of our time Johan you mentioned something about understanding where you are as an organization well that's a very nice leeway into the journey management index that we sort of brainstorm together and thought that could be useful for the community would you like to give your perspective on what the journey management index is and what we try to achieve with that or should I give a heads up let me take a stab at it and you can use your magic words to elaborate further what we want to do is this is an ongoing conversation in companies so even if you get like okay this is journey management I can see how this can play out in my organization you still need to get everyone on board or the others that are thinking about it but haven't maybe articulated well what to do with it so the goal here is really like create an index an objective index say like how mature is your organization and all these different levels like in terms of governance or guidance in terms of goals KPIs ways of working ownership all these different aspects of journey management how far are we ready to support this as an organization and by indexing it we can actually create a benchmark to say like this is where we are and this is where we want to be so what are the steps to get there and we can say this is it and slap it onto the world and say use it or and that's I think the better way and why we're here let's create it together I mean using the right words using the right steps if we have a guide or a way to think about this and to put in front of our stakeholders and bring up to the senior management in our organization say this is what we're going to do here where we're strong and this is where we're not strong so therefore we're going to invest into this then we have an objective discussion or at least an objective frame of the discussion that can help our organizations tremendously in making a next step so I think that is what we want to achieve with defining a journey management index I don't know if you have anything to add to that or you would phrase it simpler you touched upon really good things creating a conversation piece that helps you to have the conversation inside your organization about this is I think what the outcome will be and what will be helpful and as you said we don't have all the answers yet where this is in true service design fashion a prototype I wouldn't say it's a version 1.0 but let's say it's a version open 6 or open 7 I sort of added the mark minimal viable index minimal viable survey we want to start out really simply and build and grow this together with the community engage the community and also hopefully better understand what are the challenges when people want to move from level 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 and see if there are things we can do to support that throughout the year and like you said benchmarking is super interesting just to get an objective idea where do we stand compared to peers in the same industry in the same country or the same company scale so we're going to put it out there I'll make sure to add all the links but right now you can find the index already at servicedesignshow.com index that will be the URL where you can take the survey and benchmark yourself and from my perspective I want to have this conversation with the community and see how we can make this into a very valuable tool to take like you said journey mapping to journey management I love that what I really like about this and we've seen this play out already is that you have certain challenges and let's say stage 2 of developing your maturity and another has overcome them so learning from your peers is way better than having someone to go in and do the work for you so if we are able to facilitate these conversations, make meaningful connections then I think we're doing a fantastic job so that is really the goal here to make it together rather than to say this is probably it and you have a little tool to use but if you can also make some meaningful connections that you haven't had before that would be fantastic. That would be awesome and like you said it would be so interesting to connect people who are in a similar maturity stage and see which challenges they have in common or maybe how they have overcome them like already so many ideas what we can do to get out with the community this year Johan we are heading towards the end of this conversation one of the classic questions I have at the end is what do you hope is the one thing from all the things we've discussed somebody will at least take away. That there is an actual shot at becoming a journey led organization is not like talks anymore you can do it and there is a way and it's going to be hard but there is a way and there is a path towards success and we're here to help you join us for the ride it's going to be fun exciting and probably very bumpy but nevertheless I'm looking forward to it. Johan this sort of wraps up our initial conversation our public announcement of our partnership really excited to have you on board really grateful and thankful for your confidence in the service design show and sticking your neck out to help this service design community much more. My pleasure it's so much fun so let's do more. I really hope you enjoyed this episode and learned something new if you want to assess your journey management capabilities or benchmark yourself against your colleagues and competitors take a look at the journey management index which you can find at servicedesignshow.com slash index or just click the link in the show notes of this episode. This journey management index is the first initiative to emerge from the partnership between Tadu and the service design show and I really hope it's going to benefit you and the entire service design community. My name is Mark Vultijn and I want to thank you for tuning in to the service design show and I'm really looking forward to see you in the next video.