 A horrific mass shooting in Atlanta has shone a spotlight on anti-Asian racism in the USA. But what are the challenges faced by East and South East Asians in the UK? We speak to Xing Seng, executive editor at Vice. I'm also joined tonight by Owen Jones, who has been kind enough to stand in for Dalia this evening. Thank you so much for joining us on the Navarra Media YouTube channel. You spend so much time on the Owen Jones YouTube channel now. I know, and a cheeky little podcast as well. Do you listen to that as well? It's an honour, Michael. Hi, little face, good to see you. Lovely to see you, too. We have some great stories to talk about this evening. We're going to be two of them, actually. You'll be pleased to know, involve breakfast TV, but the political controversies which are lived and viewed through controversies of breakfast TV. Another a success for direct action. That's a good new story for you. And you've guessed it, a Kirstarmer stitch up. They just keep on happening. I think I can hear a cat in the background. So it's always nice to hear on a Friday evening. You know the score. Do share the show link tweet on the hashtag Tiskey Sour. Give us your super chats in the comments. We'll read those out and comment under the Twitch stream. Straight onto our first story on Tuesday, a series of mass shootings occurred at Free Massage Parlers in the metropolitan area of Atlanta, Georgia, in the United States. Eight people were killed, six of whom were of Asian American descent. Now, the shootings have sent shockwaves through America's East and Southeast Asian communities and shown a light on the increase in hate crimes experienced by Asian Americans since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic. Now, to give you an idea of the scale of the problem, the monitoring group Stop Asian American and Pacific Islander Hate have revealed that 3,800 racially motivated incidents were reported to them over the course of roughly a year during the pandemic. Obviously, not all of these are as extreme and deadly as what happened in Atlanta this week, but still incredibly worrying, nonetheless. What about the UK, though? Hate crime against people of East and Southeast Asian heritage doesn't receive much attention in this country, but there's reason to believe that here, too, East Asians have faced abuse in the wake of the COVID-19 crisis. We know that in the first three months of 2020, data from London's Met Police showed hate crime against Chinese people tripled. There's some interchangeable ways of describing people of East Asian heritage because that's how it appears in the statistics. Unfortunately, it ever sounds like I'm mixing from one category to another. In the following three months, it was doubled up compared to the same period the previous year. Elsewhere in the country, the Midlands reported a doubling of hate crime towards people of East and Southeast Asian heritage, and the Essex police found that 56% of hate crimes recorded between March and September 2020 were directed towards the East Asian community. A 75% increase compared to the same period last year. Now, this is all data from a report from the monitoring group and the virus of racism. Now, they are the statistics to zoom into a recent individual case. Last month, a lecturer at Southampton University and Chinese National were subjected to a violent attack while out jogging. Now, this is Peng Weng. He's 37. He said four white men driving past him had yelled racist slurs and become violent when he shouted back. According to the BBC, Weng said he needed treatment for facial and elbow injuries after being punched and kicked to the ground. There were some quotes in that article from Peng Weng, which are really quite upsetting, and this is from the BBC. So he said, I got very angry because it's just not civil. Mr. Weng said, adding, they hit me quite badly on my face. I left a lot of blood on the ground. You can see the physical effect of the traumatic experience in this photo, which was also on the front of this show. He also said that if the hostile environment in Britain did not improve, he would bring forward plans to move his family back to China. So I really sort of sad how unwelcoming this culture, this rise in hate crimes is making people feel. Now, to discuss further the realities of anti-East and Southeast Asian hate in Britain, I spoke to Zing Seng who has written a piece this week in Harper's Bazaar on the issue. I really do recommend reading this. The subheading reads, racism and violence towards the Asian community has been branded a US problem, but the UK needs to look in the mirror. When I spoke to Zing, I began by asking what are the main problems faced by East and Southeast Asians in Britain, which we all need to wake up to? So I think there are several, and one of them is the complete and abysmal under-representation of East and Southeast Asian people in the UK. And I use this term really specifically because, you know, when you say Asian in the UK, some people think you might mean, you include South Asians and I can't speak for that community. So ESEA, as we call it for short, there's a complete lack of representation, not only in the media, film or TV, although those are awful in themselves. But we're talking about politics. There are only two MPs of Chinese descent in Parliament. There's one Chinese peer in the House of Lords, I believe, very few sports people who are ESEA heritage. If you think about all the kind of areas in which people look up to and take their cues from how to behave in public, ESEA people are completely lacking from that conversation. And as it runs out in that void, you can allow all this, I mean, not to put too fine a word of it, but absolute garbage and nonsense to come in. You know, this idea that we're all coronavirus carriers, they were somehow responsible for the virus. All this kind of stuff plays straight into the hands of the under-representation of ESEA people in the UK. And then there's another problem with the community of East and Southeast Asian people not feeling able and not being able to report hate crimes and harassment and abuse when it does happen to them. And I'm not just talking about reporting it to the police either. You know, it's about speaking up against microaggressions in the workplace, speaking up about sexual harassment when it comes to sex and dating. These are all issues that are discussed within the community among my friends, among the people I know, but they are never deemed important enough to become issues in the same way that people regard as being important enough to do something about it. So you have all these kind of problems intersecting with each other. And you have on top of that, the UK, which is famously a hostile environment for immigrants. And, you know, you have many ESEA people with immigration statuses that might bring them to the attention of the state, for instance. Historically, there's been a case of mass deportations of Chinese men in the 40s by the home office after they started striking for better pay and better wages. I always like to raise this example because to me, it really embodies everything about what it means to be of ESEA heritage in the UK. You know, when you speak out, you are punished. You are punished by being told to go home even though you might have major home in the UK, as many of these men did. They had settled down and they had families. And then they were punished for speaking out and ripped away from their homes and their families and deported back to China. To date, the home office and the government have never apologised for it. During the Lunar New Year celebrations this year, a scarce MP from Liverpool, where the deportations happened, actually requested an official apology, still hasn't gotten a response from government. And I think that speaks to just how little people seem to care about the issues faced by the ESEA community here. And I mean, what you've just said, there has spoken to it to a large degree, but I want to pick up on what you said about people not feeling able to or being able to report the kind of prejudices or abuses they're facing. And, you know, in the here and now, in the present day, what do you think it is specifically about the East and Southeast Asian communities that makes that kind of thing difficult, potentially compared, I know you won't speak for other minority groups, but what do you think is specific to the East and Southeast Asian experience in this country when it comes to feeling listened to about prejudice and abuse? I think demographically. I mean, also, I want to preface this by saying there's not actually that much research done into this community compared to other communities and minorities in the UK. So, you know, the East and Southeast Asian community is very spread out geographically. Even in London and places like Liverpool, where there's a relatively large population, you know, they're scattered all over. So, unlike, say, in America where you have cities like in California and San Francisco, where there are really, really strong tight-knit communities, in the UK it tends to be far more sparse and spread out. The typical kind of immigrant narrative of coming over to the UK if you are from this community is, you know, your family might have gone to a town or a village to set up what might have been the first takeaway. And because you were the first takeaway there, you grew up in a majority-white neighborhood with all the kind of problems that entails. So you had to force yourself to assimilate. You had to kind of strike out on your own, and there wasn't much community support. And I think, thank God, this is changing now. And I think it's really been spurred on by the increase in hate crime during the coronavirus pandemic. But I think there's a lot of geographical and demographic reasons as to why people don't feel supported enough to voice their opinions and to voice their experiences of harassment. And I also think it comes from, you know, and this isn't just to do with ethnic differences, for instance. You'll get this with a lot of immigrant groups, you know, you come over to the UK and because of the hostile environment, not just, you know, the current hostile environment, but the historically hostile environment the UK has been to lots of immigrant groups, you feel as if you don't want to raise your voice and speak up because you're afraid of catching the attention of the state and all the problems that might bring. And I mean, you've mentioned that people blaming people of East and Southeast Asian origin for coronavirus. That's got a lot of publicity quite rightly, although I say that, I probably should have got more and only quite recently. The other issue which is making China in particular appear in the news in a negative light is new tensions between the British government and the Chinese government. And potentially, I mean, that could outlast the problems with COVID-19. Do you see geopolitical tensions or the way that China is talked about as a threat in the British press? Do you see that as something that impacts on people who were perceived to be Chinese or to be of Chinese descent in this country? I think so. And I'm really glad you raised this point because it's something I see a lot on social media nowadays. And it's also, you know, I've been the target of harassment that assumes that because of my appearance, I am from mainland China, which I'm not, or have some kind of sympathy with the CCP, which I don't. I'll feel in any way, you know, kind of qualified to speak on, you know, Chinese geopolitical stories. You know, I'm not from mainland China. That's not my specialism. I grew up in Singapore, which is quite a far distance away from China. And yet because of my appearance, you know, I've had social media comments, you know, identifying me with the mainland Chinese government, when in fact, you know, I've actually reported quite widely on pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong. But that's beside the point. I mean, the question you're asking is, does this contribute towards anti-ESCA sentiment in the UK and could just carry on for after the coronavirus pandemic? And I think it can, but you have to contextualize this within, you know, the wider narrative of that. There is no representation of ESEA voices in the UK. So when you look at, you know, the only stories coming out about people who look like me, for instance, are about Chinese government aggression, then that's a problem because there are no voices to counter that. When you look at the people who get to comment on these stories of Chinese aggression and they're almost all, you know, white academics, that's a problem because it's not providing an alternative viewpoint that's spoken from a person of that heritage. So I think that it's definitely something that worries me. And I think that it's going to get worse. The ESEA community is huge. It encompasses, you know, countries as disparate as, you know, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, Japan, Korea, China to tar one community with the actions of a single government, of a single country. It's just very simple. It's just racism. And finally, I mean, you've mentioned that, I suppose, the prejudice which especially COVID-19 is sort of brought to light has caused people to get more organized. What are the sort of practical, concrete signs of that that we are starting to see a politically organized community of people of Eastern, Southeast Asian heritage in Britain? So there are lots of campaign groups now emerging like the SEAN, which is currently campaigning for media organizations to stop using images of people of ESEA heritage on stories about coronavirus because at one point, I think over a third of images about COVID in the news were illustrated by people who looked like they had Chinese heritage, which obviously helps to cement the link between coronavirus and people of my heritage. There are also campaign groups like End the Virus of Racism, which was set up to counter the rise in hate crime against people of ESEA origin. And I think there are lots of things that people can do in their everyday life to counter this sort of prejudice. You know, being, you know, just looking at the responses to the Atlanta Spar shootings, I was so shocked and appalled to see that some people on reading about the murders of eight people, six of whom were Asian women, their first thought was to make a cheap joke on Twitter about happy endings. There's a lot of that bias and prejudice going around. There's a lot of people who think that is completely fair and normal to turn Asian women into a punchline or to sexualize them or to fetishize them. You can call out those opinions when you see them, whether that's online or in your friends. You know, when people call these takeaways by the name of a slur, which I don't want to say because it's slur, challenge them. Say it's not acceptable. You know, there's lots of things that people can do in their everyday life to challenge this kind of racism and misogyny. That was Zing Zang, executive editor at VICE and host and author of the BBC's Forgotten Women series. I want to go to a tweet now which is from Francesca Hume. Hey, Michael, please remember to include Southeast Asians in this discussion tonight. Hashtag Tiskey Sour. Southeast Asians are similarly racialized as in the eyes of racists. We all look the same. A Filipino nurse was called effing Chinese C-word by a patient. I mean, I hope our coverage was inclusive enough there of all East and Southeast Asian identities. As you heard, Zing's heritage is actually from Singapore, so in Southeast Asia. But important to remember in all of this a racist is not going to know what precise country someone comes from. And also another moment to say how much Filipino nurses actually have suffered from this COVID pandemic. We've talked about this before, how much so many people have sacrificed in the incredibly high rates of COVID deaths among Filipino nurses really worrying statistic that's come out from this pandemic. Let's go straight on to our next story which means I've got Iron Giants back in the building. Now we've been speaking all week about the Decronian policing bill which would criminalize protest for causing a nuisance. On Monday's show we spoke to Gracie Black Bradley from Liberty and the problems with this bill, about the problems with this bill. On Wednesday we discussed it passing its second reading in Parliament. Finally, we have some better news for you. That's because after a huge wave of opposition to the bill, including protests organized by Sisters Uncut, the next phase of the bill's movement through the Commons has been delayed. The revelation was made last night in a blog from Labour MP Peter Kyle. He wrote we were told over the weekend that he would start next week, which is very fast because the Tories wanted to keep their cultural provocations going as much as possible as we approach the elections in May. But what happened today? They pulled the Bill Committee. When they saw the revulsion from vast waves of the country at this unfit bill, suddenly we get a message saying the Bill Committee won't start until later in the year. No doubt when it reappears it will look very different than it does today. And for that we have people up and down the country to thank who contacted their MPs who made their voices heard and also a united opposition that pulled apart the shallow and mean-spirited arguments put forward by the government. You might question what it was that united the opposition as we know there was a bit of a U-turn over the weekend that meant that Labour decided they were going to vote against this on the second reading. But Owen, I want to bring you in following, I suppose, the quite, you know, very impressive demonstrations organized over the weekend and early this week, especially by sisters uncut. It seems as if direct action has got the goods. Yeah, and I think we need to really confidently state that partly for the good of our the good of morale within a movement which has obviously suffered some pretty spectacular defeats. And in the coming months ahead there will be mass struggles, hopefully a hot summit in every respect, and being able to proudly and loudly say that this protest played, these protest played a critical role in what happened, I think, is very important. Look, there was talk of doing the vigil, a vigil on people's doorsteps. If that happened, there simply wouldn't have had this impact at all. And I think it's worth, you know, if we think back at recent history, the poll tax movement, that wasn't, you know, Margaret Thatcher was forced to resign because of the movement against the poll tax. That wasn't because of people sitting around singing Kumbaya. It wasn't because of people just doing A to B marches, as important as they were. Obviously, one ended quite spectacularly in Trafalgar Square, an intro of anyone Google's poll tax riots of a younger generation than myself. They will see exactly what I mean. But people also forget during the poll tax, which was a very regressive flat tax levied by the Thatcher government, four million people refused to pay the poll tax and an act of mass civil disobedience. That was a form of direct action as well. They were cut, of course, in the late 2010 onwards. Their use of direct action occupying businesses whose owners were refusing to pay tax and industrial scale forced that issue onto the agenda. Now, did we get the action against it? We wanted, no, but it made it a salient issue, which politicians felt they had no choice but to respond to. Extinction Rebellion, there were critiques of extinction rebellion which are entirely valid to make, but it's worth noting that after the financial crash support, or those who felt the existential threat of the climate emergency was an urgent threat declined, but actually extinction rebellion's big success above all else was driving up the number of people to a record high in the aftermath of their major spectacular acts of civil disobedience. And of course, if we go wider than that, you know, the suffragettes who are now lauded as secular states, but those people did not mess around to say the least. They didn't just do direct action, they did all sorts of spectacularly violent things actually at the time. Trade unionists, of course, who fought for our rights. LGBTQ activists. So I think it's really important we spell this out because we have this debate at the moment about patriotism which is clearly defined by Tory ministers having flags behind them which is purely in order to, you know, John Stone at The Independent said this was just because they have so much contempt for people they think that will make you like them. And obviously we have this debate about patriotism which is defined by the flag about British history which is generally the right getting offended by empire being mentioned, but the history we don't talk about and we're not educated enough about is the struggle of our ancestors for our rights of freedoms. And we need to remember that because it will embolderness and the current struggles ahead. And this is just the latest example of direct action that showed results as it's won our rights and freedoms throughout our history. That's how we win. We don't just sit around writing letters to MPs. Not saying that there's no place for that but direct action is very important and we've seen that again. We've got some more flag chat later in the show and don't you worry. I want to go to a few more comments from inside the halls of power inside and Westminster because I mean obviously this is showing that outside pressure direct action really does work in terms of changing the decision making structures or the incentives that people are taking into account in Westminster but ultimately whether or not this bill passes is going to be how MPs decide to vote on that third reading. We have a couple of quotes from a report in Huck magazine by friend of the show Ben Smoke. A Labour front bench source told the magazine the plan from the government had originally been to get it rushed through hence why it was rushed and had second reading within days but I think they weren't expecting the scale of the backlash. A separate Labour source passed on a message from an internal Labour WhatsApp saying the government have chickened out the bill committee instead of starting next week won't start until May now. It won't come out of committee before June the 24th so report stage and third reading will likely be in July. Interesting sort of comparing that to what Peter Carr was saying. He was clearly implying that what the Tories thought this would be would be a big popular story. Yes tough policing, tough on crime that's going to help us in the May elections then they decided oh actually maybe it won't help us in the May elections because now the cat's got out the bag that actually this is quite draconian and not needed. Owen what I want to know from you now I know probably you're better connected with Labour MPs than Conservative MPs but I think you know working at the Guardian you're probably a bit more plugged into Westminster in general than I am how many Tory MPs you have on your WhatsApp probably not that many but I want your impression on whether there is a chance that there could be enough who rebel to either mean that this bill falls or that there will be significant amendments made to it as it goes through the committee stage so the law that eventually or the bill that eventually passes into law will be quite a different one to that which we're looking at right now. I mean it is a tricky one because what the whole episode of course exposes is the utter hypocrisy the deceit of so called Tory Libertarianism I mean there has been this long tradition of you know there has been the tradition of a form of you know David Davis positioned himself as this martyr of fighting for civil liberties against new Labour authoritarianism he worked with Shammy Trakabati of course of liberty at the time and was actually attacked by Christians with various crude innuendos about it he resigned his seats slightly odd move at the time partly beef with David Cameron but ostensibly it was over civil liberties and new Labour were very authoritarian 90 days detention which they tried to impose in 2005 was defeated it was the first major defeat of the new Labour government because Tory MPs rebelled against it however I mean obviously once in power the story is very different and the rhetoric of civil liberties is you know in practice the civil liberties that often talking about are civil liberties for privileged white men I mean that's how Boris Johnson has always interpreted it you know he's often he was portrayed in the general election of 2019 as Jeremy Corbyn and all the rest who rebelled over and over again against new Labour authoritarian rules as some sort of Libertarian you know he was a Libertine he didn't like the nannies day when he was editor of the spectator he covered up the no bikes sign with bike helmets because that's how much he hated authoritarian rules but of course you know in practice you know obviously we've seen their very authoritarian form of right wing populism which is quite comparable I think to that which rules Hungary or Poland not as extreme but certainly in that direction so I think that's the problem you know you do get the the hypocrisy of Tory Libertarianism on the back benches has been exposed those who grant you know grandstanding over the opinion it was just a wedge issue often with the EU but in a material sense we saw how limited the rebellion was that said I think there is some discontent which is genuine James Forsythe who writes for the spectator and is married to Boris Johnson's official spokesperson in another episode of our totally normal country I mean he wrote in the spectator which is like the house journal of the conservative party about you know discontent from the spectator but also amongst conservative MPs I think they are aware it makes them look like hypocrites that they've been grandstanding on civil liberties and now they effectively allow the criminalization of vast amounts of protest in the country so I think that's what we need to do I think you know a savvy a big protest movement which must include direct action should focus on their record of claiming to be civil libertarians opposing infringements on hard one rights in this country and going hard on that and I think there is a potential of a limited rebellion I mean I suppose my worry is they've got an ATC majority our 40 Tory MPs likely to rebel over this I mean it's more likely than over Brexit because although that issue they make it an issue of confidence in the government that's why very few Tory MPs were ever going to do that and obviously they in the previous parliament kicked out 21 Tory MPs they're not going to do that over this so I think potentially it gives them all leeway and there are a section of the Tory back benches who got elected in 2019 who are more willing to defy the whip so I think it's possible but I still think Tory libertarianism has been shown to be the sham it is and that's the problem I mean on the show on Wednesday we showed the quite good speech by Theresa May in parliament but I don't think anyone particularly reassured that we're relying on Theresa May to protect our civil liberties so still a lot of work to be done protest movements are going to have to be pretty noisy to defeat this one let's go to a comment we have a very kind super chat 50 pounds from Stephen Cropper Dear Michael please give a birthday shout out to my partner Barbara who celebrates her big 5-0 tomorrow as we devoted viewers of Tiskey here's a little lolly for the cause best wishes to you and the whole team your old man's jazz buzz oh nice one my dad organizes jazz concerts so presumably he does so with Stephen Cropper great next story it's an entertaining one last week we discussed the problems with Piers Morgan's dismissal of Meghan Markle's claims about her mental health now that moment on Good Morning Britain and the rather ensued with weatherman Alex Beresford the following day has become the most complained about TV incident in Britain's broadcasting history as of this week Ofcom the UK's communications regulator have received over 57,000 complaints about Morgan's behaviour let's take another look at the controversial moment in question again let's have the names who did you go to what did they say to you I'm sorry I don't believe a word she says Meghan Markle I wouldn't believe it if you read me a weather report and the fact that she's fired up this onslaught against our royal family I think is contemptible and I understand that you don't like Meghan Markle you've made it so clear a number of times on this programme a number of times and I understand that you've got a personal relationship with Meghan Markle or had one and she cut you off she's entitled to cut you off has she said anything about you since she cut you off I don't think she has but yet you continue to trash her okay I'm done with this do you know what that's perfect you could track me maybe not my own sorry can't do this this is absolutely diabolical behaviour I'm sorry but Pierce spouts off on a regular basis and we all have to sit there and listen 6 30 to 7 o'clock yesterday was incredibly hard to watch now the outrage obviously was caused by someone going on television someone has opened up and talked about their mental health difficulties talked about feeling suicidal and Pierce Morgan has stood on national television in front of millions of people saying I don't believe a word of it which is not really what is particularly a helpful message to be putting out there and obviously lots of people have been very upset and offended and outraged by it Owen I know you'll be equally outraged about Pierce Morgan's comments there I want to know your thoughts on whether or not you're surprised at quite how big the public backlash has been to that it's now the most complained about TV event ever I'm not actually know because we know there's a massive groundswell of racism in this country we know that a lot of that manifests itself as wife bed hostility to Meghan Markle I think on the issue of mental health there was actually quite a large grouping in British society who because of their own lived experience are just likely to take it far more seriously one in four people the statistic people would be familiar with go through some sort of mental distress in their lifetimes and you know suicides have increased in 2019 the highest for two decades amongst men and five and a half thousand suicides huge numbers of people have been affected they know people who've been affected by suicide or directly people close to them as well I mean for women it's interesting because the biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide but that doesn't mean obviously it's not a problem amongst women in fact the statistics four came on under 25 it's increased by 93.8% since 2012 so I do think what we should do rather than just I suppose outrage which is understandable and I think the groundswell of anger is because a lot of people are affected by mental health is I think we should try and shift the debate onto the fact that mental health services in this country are woefully under resourced under the coalition government they claim to be a charity of esteem that physical and mental health would be treated equally but of course neither are properly resourced in this country we've seen with Covid obviously what an under resourced NHS does but in terms of the mental health crisis look people with suicidal ideations go to their GPs and they're often put on waiting lists for months to get help even when they're in the midst of a crisis they don't get the support they need and that can have obviously catastrophic consequences for anyone who knows anyone who's gone through a serious crisis they know the absence or the patchwork of support that exists in this country it's like a lottery depending on where you live often it depends if you're GP how much training they have on the issue so I think that's what we should be talking about as well as the stigma women are far more likely or significantly more likely than men to suffer mental distress men are far less likely to seek help though which is one of the reasons suicide is so high a lot of that is stigma attached to how masculinity is interpreted by lots of people it's seen as weak and unmanly to seek help so I think those are the discussions we need to have I think the problem with this is it all gets thrown through the prism of culture war it gets through the the prism of the Pierce Morgan pantomime when actually I think we should be using this moment to be talking about a massive mental health crisis which by the way disproportionately affects various people as the Samaritans point out the poorer men are 10 times more likely to die of suicide than more afterward men people from people of colour are far more likely to suffer from mental distress LGBTQ people are far more likely to suffer from mental distress so I think these are the discussions we need to be having rather than falling into the trap of here's another culture war here's the Pierce Morgan show when actually I think there is a broad sympathetic coalition in this country who are open to hearing about the crisis of mental health services and what we actually do about it I think that's where we need to move on to I think that important about that point you make about the broad coalition who are now incredibly open and two discussions about mental health and actually openly hostile to people who would shut it down is important the final thing we are going to show you of Pierce Morgan on this show then we're moving on to other controversial moments on television Pierce Morgan in response to that becoming record breaking record breaking number of complaints said only 57,000 I've had more people than that come up and congratulate me in the street for what I said the vast majority of Britons are right behind me to which the NHS doctor and former Tisgesau guest Tarek Jenner responded I thought this is very good that would be four people a minute every minute 24 hours a day for the nine days since you lost your job right you're watching Tisgesau on Navarra media as you know we go live every Monday, Wednesday and Friday at 7pm do make sure you hit that subscribe button so you don't miss our daily vids or the surprise shows that we sometimes put out Owen we're sticking on the theme of controversial moments in TV moments that captured the public imagination either or I mean imaginations are a funny way to put it captured or provoked the country's ire because they demonstrated something or showed something which had to become unacceptable in most of these examples it became unacceptable rightly some of them are a bit stupid but I want to know from you what did Pierce Morgan's incident, what did those complaints beat what was the second most complained about moment in TV history to Ofcom I should know this 44,500 complaints oh I read it I'm not going to remember it and then I'll just kick myself because this was I can't remember, I could just keep dragging us out but I don't think it would be freaky Jade Goodie during Celebrity Big Bravo 44,500 complaints to Ofcom and that was in response for those of you who are too young maybe to have watched that season of Celebrity Big Brother Shilpa Shetty a huge Bollywood star received sort of enormous racist abuse from basically a lot of people who were essentially a lot less famous and she was really successful comparatively to everyone else in the building that's a bit besides the point contestants on the show said they couldn't pronounce her name even though Shilpa Shetty is very easy to pronounce instead calling her Princess or the Indian they're under cooking chicken suggesting that might be how they do it in India where people are all thin and look ill and the abuse peaked with housemate Daniel Lloyd telling Shetty to f off home and Goodie referring to her as Shilpa Popodom it was really disgusting to watch and the complaints were particularly because no one intervened it was basically, you know, you had they might have ultimately after these complaints I can't remember what happened in the end but there were days when people were watching someone being racially abused in a house that was streamed to the whole country with no one there to defend her no one to intervene so I mean, again this was a situation which very much rightly caused outrage among the public I've got another question for you and I'm going to give you a clue this time the most complained about TV moment this wasn't to Ofcom this was to the BBC and they received 55,000 complaints for streaming what piece of musical theatre in 2005 the most controversial piece of musical theatre apparently ever made oh, not the um Seinfeld thing no, no, that wasn't that was no, what was it the opera no, I don't know what it is Michael you've got it I was it you kind of almost got it, right the show contained more than 200 I'll give you that I feel like you kind of said Seinfeld the opera was close enough I meant springer I meant very springer what caused the most disquiet about that one is that it depicted God Jesus Christ, Mary, Adam and Eve and Satan as war and guests on a special edition of the Jerry Springer show set in hell that was kind of an organised affair by rightward Christians who sort of very effectively organised Christians to complain to the BBC again I don't think anything happened in that situation I've got another one for you Owen which radio host did 38,000 people complain about in 2008 that was Jonathan Ross and Russell Brandt because they rang the the daughter of the guy who played of course Manuel in Faulty Towers yep, Andrew Sax they called him up and both were suspended it was a very strange moment in popular culture that was when there was a period where being adult men who behaved sort of like children was seen as like really avant-garde and sort of like the thing to be and then they put these sort of adult children on the radio and they pushed it too far and everyone was like whoa why are we accepting this kind of thing 38,000 complaints yeah go on that actually people it was actually quite a disastrous moment I don't think that led the BBC or led to the voices to try to make it even more supine and to kind of avoid edgy comedy and humour so it wasn't good because it just made them risk averse indeed, yeah that stupid prank call where they talked about sleeping with someone's granddaughter ruined actually the good comedy finally this is my last one for you Owen I think you are going to know this one what did Jeremy Clarkson say about striking public sector workers on the one show this was in 2011 that prompted 31,000 complaints oh my well I remember this I actually went on radio to whinge about it which was 10 years ago do you know what I can't remember no I can't remember Mike I'm just going to say I like your descriptions of your own media appearances you whingeing he said this is worth whingeing about he said striking public sector workers should be executed in front of their families and then on the mental health theme again on the same show he said people who killed themselves by throwing themselves in front of trains was selfish for that he received widespread criticism from mental health charities as he so should the last one is not a quiz question it's just to show that complaints to media organisations aren't always to try and contain the most reactionary moments that happen on TV the most complained about TV moment last year which caused 27,000 people to complain to Ofcom was the group diversity performing on Britain's Got Talent it was a musical number about racial justice in the wake of the murder of George Floyd which really got people pissed off probably lots of people who also complained about cancel culture wrote in to Ofcom to try and get a song about Black Lives Matter taken down outrageous oh and this is not a quiz question this is a genuine one I don't know the answer to this it's a genuine moment where you get a load of Ofcom complaints about something you've said on TV I haven't actually no I think when I walked on Sky News people complained about about the other people the people who were questioning whether or not the massacre in Florida was homophobic or not you were very right to walk off then we're going to a Keir Starmer stitch up now have announced their candidate for the upcoming by-election in Hartlepool the competition for the post was not particularly nail biting as the candidate Paul Williams was chosen from a long list of one yes the three NEC members with responsibility to judge which applicants could proceed to a vote by local members decided that only Williams himself a former MP made the grade this is known in common parlance as a stitch up now one reason this has caused disquiet was summed up by Laura Parker former momentum coordinator who endorsed Starmer in the leadership race after Clive Lewis left the field she tweeted a man had to resign because of inappropriate behavior and is replaced by a man in blatant stitch up from an accessibility point of view is an absolute joke that people who may have wanted to apply had to do so within 24 hours and we clearly had no chance of even being interviewed we deserve to lose now the first sentence there is a reference to the fact that Mike Hill who was the incumbent MP he resigned because or resigned while he was due to face an employment tribunal into allegations of sexual harassment and victimization they he denies and the allegations it's important to say others have brought attention to one of Keir Starmer's campaign promises when he was running for Labour leader so this is back in the midst of that leadership race when he's trying to get Labour members to vote for him the selections for Labour candidates need to be more democratic and we should end any seat in positions of candidates local party members should select their candidates for every election I saw you digging up that Goldie Owen this week they are making it fairly obvious aren't they they don't even seem to be pretending to care about democracy and as I said when I dug that out fine let's play that game let's just never trust a single thing that these people say ever again look I didn't vote for the guy I voted for Rebecca Long Bailey but I think I responded to his victory by you know working in good or acting in good faith and I think what's important to know is lots of people who voted for Jeremy Corbyn so I did vote for Keir Starmer on the basis of the commitments to pledges that he made that's the basis of his democratic electoral mandate the 10 pledges he made on domestic policies but also pledges like he made there not to stitch up selections now people go back and say well every Labour leader stitches up elections well I suppose what I'd say on that is I mean if you look at by elections that didn't actually happen under Jeremy Corbyn and in all of his by elections he actually ended up with candidates who were not loyal to his politics I suppose and you know in terms of stitch ups during a by-election to put a one man list is just so openly contentious and the media double standards are just so blatant because if this was under Jeremy Corbyn and the Corbyn leadership imposed a single mail or shortlist I think clearly there would be huge amounts of outrage you'd have back benches going to the media all of that would be amplified this would be seen as Corbyn authoritarianism and intolerance for party democracy that obviously those standards don't apply to this particular leadership I think though I'll say what is so just outrage I interviewed Paul Williams in 2018 because I wrote an article about the Saudi lobby in this country which you know one of the ways the Saudi dictatorship operate is they take parliamentarians on all expenses paid tours and then they do these contrived manufactured selected trips where they show people a completely dishonest view of Saudi Arabia so that they then go back and say my whole view an image of Saudi Arabia has been changed which is what Paul Williams did he tweeted a sickening nauseating defence of Saudi Arabia a progressive country which he hadn't seen before so that was a week he tweeted that a week after the UN condemned Saudi Arabia for the slaughter in Yemen which is the worst humanitarian crisis on the face of the earth with a Saudi-led coalition which has slaughtered that country which bombs children in school bosses which has reduced huge you know millions of people to mass food insecurity and has committed what should be regarded as war crimes however of course they are armed to the teeth by our own government a Saudi regime which beheads gays and dissidents which brutalizes women which exports international terrorism which you know is one of the most oppressive dictatorships on the face of the earth deprives its people of their basic freedoms and the only mainstream political journalist to talk about this is John Stone he's a brilliant journalist at the independent newspaper that's not of any interest to anybody else imagine it was under Jamie Corbyn's leadership at a moment when people were talking about misogyny and about the systemic misogyny in British society and then he imposes an all male one member with a short list with a guy who I don't know went to Iran or something and then on an all expenses paid tour and then tweeted about how amazing Iran was I mean you wouldn't hear the end of it it would be all over the newspapers rightly so and I just think you know we have to be clear about this I do think most people accepted Keir Starmer's leadership election even if they didn't vote for him in good faith they cannot operate on a basis of deceiving the people who voted for you which on the basis of which the legitimacy of your leadership rests and then expect people to just sit back and accept it silently people need to organise they need to fight because unfortunately this leadership is showing complete contempt for any not just the people you know on the left that anyone who voted for Keir Starmer in the first place they're mocking you I think a lot of them have contempt for the people a lot of the people who voted for them certainly don't because the vast majority of the Labour membership however they voted agree on the same things when it comes to key domestic political priorities and running a democratic political party so I think this is I think they are crossing several lines and I think people have to fight and I'm not going to hear because I know what we're going to hear now I already get on my timeline oh we need to unite and fight the Tories rich coming from people who did never did that obviously under the previous leadership but these are the same people who said oh to argue that the British media had any role whatsoever in what happened to Jeremy Corbyn that's just making excuses then I don't think with all due respect to us we're only a very small corner of the British media I don't think we're going to cause the downfall of Keir Starmer's leadership and I suggest it's pretty brittle if we did by us criticising them we have a responsibility to speak out and to condemn their attacks from party democracy their contempt for their campaign promises and the fact is at the moment their polling is in collapse they're in collapse because they don't have a coherent vision to the country they've let the conservatives get away with the pandemic one of the most catastrophic handlings of the pandemic on earth in which nearly 1 in 500 people have died one of the worst economic consequences and given their fate they've abdicated their basic responsibilities as an opposition we've got a responsibility to step up to call them out to try and kick them up the backside and I do think that means calling them out on their attacks on democracy but also preparing for struggles on the streets because I think leadership is going to pass to the movements that are going to emerge as lockdown relaxes because we cannot count on the labour leadership to take to fight this government to offer an alternative to this government they're failing to do that so it's going to fall to grassroots movements to do that but this you know all I say is the dangerous game they're playing is I think a lot of voters won't care about how they treat Labour members but I think it's a legitimate line to say if they're going to lie to one electorate why would you ever trust them to not lie to anybody else Keir Starmer is in danger of coming across as someone who doesn't have a clear world view a clear political mission a clear political project who isn't coming from a place of conviction and leadership will be economical with the truth and I don't think it is going down well with people as much as it's cutting through and they're barely cutting through with anything I think that is coming through that they don't come across as sincere or authentic and I think that is undermining their leadership not people like us winging about it I think we are also in a depressing situation where him not knowing what he wants is actually the best case scenario from what they've done so far if Keir Starmer does know what he wants it's to attack and destroy the left and to shoehorn in a load of candidates with really reactionary foreign policy positions as you've just said the candidate who's being shoehorned in in Hartley Paul seems to be a fan of the Saudi dictatorship he not only supported the war in Libya most Labour MPs did he tweeted supporting, he said now next Zimbabwe calling for the invasion of Zimbab to the 19th century European scramble for Africa I mean this guy, I interviewed him at the time I quoted him in the article because I had to get right of the ply pathetic, imagine just think about it for a second how morally bankrupt do you have to be to get an invite from the Saudi Embassy offering you an all expenses paid trip to their nightmarish regime and then go out tweeting and applaud it for it a week after it's condensed for unleashing humanitarian catastrophe these people believe in very very little they believe in very little and this was led, Labour's led by a human rights lawyer a human rights lawyer who parachutes in stuges for one of the worst dictatorships on the face of the earth it is a joke and not a funny joke either it's an insult it's annoying it's what's so depressing because they weren't expecting the radicalism of Jeremy Corbyn that was built into it the idea was yes we did try to have a really radical beyond social democracy manifesto we gave it a good shot let's actually just go for moderate social democracy but without any war mongers and with someone who's got basic respect for human rights they ended up having someone who's actively arguing against tax rises for the rich who's parachuting in various pro-war candidates in different seats around the country as I was going to say Aaron Bustani often talks about Dan Norris who's the candidate for the mayor of the west of England who was the leadership backed one he was a very enthusiastic supporter of the 2003 Iraq war so if Keir Starmer wants to pose himself as a anti-war, moderate social democrat who believes in human rights then why does everything he do suggest the opposite this is the thing what was the basis if we boil down the basis of his leadership pitch which forms the legitimate the mandate respect the mandate, fine let's talk about what the mandate is the mandate was unity or come on it was to maintain the core domestic domestic policies of the Corbyn leadership for example hiking corporation tax which they literally opposed the conservative government from the right on that kept having to U-turn on their positions before they finally accepted reluctantly and they haven't even spelled it out whether they would properly back an increase in corporation tax by 2023 and also competence and electability well at the moment Labour's polling is sinking like a stone and I think this is the problem I think actually it's the worst of all worlds I don't think Keir Starmer by the way is a hardened Labour right winger you know my the impression that I've formed is I don't think he has a strong political coherent project people around him do so for example whether that be Jenny Chapman who is his head of his political operation now the guy who's just been parachuted in to Harley-Pool is close friends with Jenny Chapman Jenny Chapman is firmly on the Labour right I'm told that when it might not have been her actually but it was another senior aid when they heard about the Ten Pledges Keir Starmer's Ten Pledges they said this was what is this the Communist Manifesto you have of course the former national organiser of Labour first the old Labour right who were basically the ice pickers that's what they relished doing they watched Neil Kinnick's 1985 speech attacking militant and you know put that on before they go to bed you know I thought you were going to say something else there I was actually but the truth is that there are very factional right-wing people around Keir Starmer who are determined to drive the left out and this was not the Democratic mandate that they have but whether we didn't vote for Keir Starmer fine I think we both actually adopted a pretty good faith approach as I think lots of members did but you can't come to power promising to keep key political policies to have a united Labour party and to be electable and then fail on every single count and then expect people to say absolutely nothing about it and the fact is this guy is not heading for number ten even close and I think the problem is increasingly the British public see a leadership that is not authentic that doesn't stand for very much and as a consequence looks opportunistic they've got to fix that that's their job to do it and it's our job to call them out absolutely Monica Wideman with 5lb Degrees thank you Owen for your absolutely forensic analysis so good I will send some on your show too no worries and you do that we're a youtuber community I love it now that we've expanded the left youtube universe David Owen with 999 Starmillite is way to the leadership illegitimate and useless leader who we did not vote for a worse Ed Miliband Ed Miliband did believe in something and that's the difference Ed Miliband didn't have the courage of his convictions and felt trapped by the advisors around him and I have to say if you're going to come up with the full of the Labour membership it's probably Ed Miliband 2.0 and I think actually a lot of people would settle for the kind of new Ed Miliband that's not what they've got they've got I'm afraid someone who doesn't have a political project quite you're watching Tisgu Sava on Navarra Media do you like the show it helps us in the algorithm our final story for the evening nothing generates high profile fallouts and conservative rage quite like a debate about the union jack and this week we've been treated to an almighty one the Ferrari began with this moment from an interview on BBC Breakfast between hosts Charlie State and Nagamunchetti and Communities Minister Robert Jenrick Robert Jenrick, thank you I think your flag is not up to standard size government interview measurements I think it's just a little bit small but that's your department really just thought the picture of the queen you'll be aware that every time we have we've seen it every day it's a stock thing isn't it the picture of the queen there as well in the Westminster office I'm assuming that was a very funny TV moment the point was not really to say the British flag is terrible it's just to say every time a Tory minister does an interview now there's a huge flag behind them wherever they are often in very incongruous places you'll notice it was just next to a window flag is supposed to hang off stuff you don't just have a huge union jack in whatever room you're working in it's completely bizarre that's why they're laughing the image of the queen only made it more ridiculous of course anyway later that day Jenrick tweeted this image alongside a message saying we're always proud to fly the union flag at the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government it's a symbol of liberty and freedom that binds the whole country together and we might be able to see that image Graphic 20 Fox it's another ridiculous one if you look it up because it's just a flag next to a couch another place where they aren't supposed to really be I did promise you controversy though we've got to get onto that and what really provoked Aya was when someone noticed that Nagam and Chetty one of the BBC presenters you just saw had hit the like button on a tweet the question said what has Charlie done the flag shaggers will be up in arms tell him we love him that got the like and that led to fire and fury and the BBC were not going to let Menchetti get away with it she's had to apologise for some other ridiculous things before I think before for suggesting that Donald Trump might be racist now she's had to apologise for liking a tweet so she tweeted today that were offensive in nature about the use of the British flag as a backdrop in a government interview this morning I have since removed those likes this does not represent the views of me or the BBC I apologise for any offence taken this might all seem a bit silly to you of course though it wasn't too silly for the culture secretary Oliver Dowden to get involved involved sorry he commented to the Telegraph what started as light-hearted banter became sneering which is not the BBC at its best as I've said before it is so important that the BBC reflects and respects the values of the whole of the UK which presumably is to have giant union jacks behind you wherever you are and whatever you're doing is there a huge giant union jack next to your sofa if not you've got your British values all messed up maybe you don't have them oh in what do you make of this shouldn't Agar have apologised new I mean as someone tweeted because this was all whipped up by Guido Forks the right wing blog only in the UK are there so many independent organisations dedicated to roaming people out of public life for insufficient deference to the government I mean that's what we're talking about we're talking about a I mean a very sinister direction we're heading in which I do think I do keep talking about Hungary a lot I went to Hungary in 2016 Hungary is ruled by a party called Fidesz who used to be part of the Liberal International they were a centre-right party which radicalised in power waged so-called cultural wars against their opponents and are now in a right wing authoritarian government which has shut down vestiges of democracy obviously they rely on a combination of whipping up hatred against migrants, Muslims trans people, anti-Semitism thrown in for good measure and I just worry that the so-called cultural wars that are being waged are as much a attempt their backlash against the struggle of minorities for their rights that's partly what it is but it's also about essentially creating a hostile environment for any vague dissent or perceived dissent from the government and its supposed national mission encapsulating its interpretation of Brexit and I think you know the BBC has long been called I mean its coverage is as favourable to the government as I think the government could be satisfied with with a broader press ecosystem which overwhelmingly supports the Conservatives we just had tonight by the way that the Boris Johnson's direct of communication James Slack quits months into his role to join the son's deputy editor-in-chief so he'll carry on his role as direct of communications then just at the Sun newspaper that revolving door of the press and the government is very much we've seen of course with as I've already mentioned Boris Johnson's spokesperson Allegra Stratton formerly the BBC ends up at ITV there's a huge tradition that generally in government that's my worry it's just this you know an authoritarian atmosphere a kind of all-band light all-banding the rule of hungry atmosphere and that's partly what this is about whipped up by right-wing outriders attempting to intimidate and harass anyone who's seen as deviating from allegiance to the British government it's disturbing I do think the path we're headed on is essentially towards hungry and I think this is an example of it the revolving door you mentioned we do have a good example of next Robbie Gibb is the brother of a Tory MP he was Theresa May's director of communications at number 10 and before that he was head of BBC's political program this is probably the most worrying revolving door there is someone who's in charge of making the news the most important out and platform in the country which is the BBC News at 6 the BBC News at 10 who then goes on to work for the politician who he was supposed to be holding to account anyway in response to this his comment which was given to the telegraph on the day the BBC announces the welcome news it is moving more programs out of London this BBC breakfast clip reveals a sneering and cynical attitude towards our monarchy and flag that shows it's not just about where people are based the BBC has a wider cultural problem BBC breakfast is filmed in in Salford so I suppose he's in a way he could say that that proves my point you move them to Salford they're still liberal elites who laugh at flags and pictures of the Queen again I'll repeat the problem with that argument is the ordinary Brits do not have huge two meter wide flags on big flag poles next to their couches or in front of their windows these are not places where flags are supposed to be that's why it's hilarious and ridiculous that every government minister who goes on every breakfast show, every interview however big or small and they have these two incredibly out of place for one or two incredibly out of place union jacks behind them presumably they do quite like these outrages happening it's exactly the kind of culture war that they want to start labour also putting their huge flags behind them so I don't necessarily think this is the fight that the left should be having on this terrain more than just to say this is ridiculous how ridiculous and sad are all in class I mean I don't find it particularly offensive to have a huge flag behind you when you're doing a TV interview I just think it's ridiculous and I think it's even more ridiculous if you get outraged at someone else pointing out that it's ridiculous Owen the thing I want to know from you the last thing I want to know from you how much do you think the Tories are going to try and sort of push their flag war agenda between now and 2024 do you think this has got legs or do you think they're going to have to give up at some point especially as you know Keir Starmer's not averse to a union jack himself there's only so only so many flags you can drape yourself in or how big your flag can be because I mean that's what we're going to end up with isn't it we're going to end up with a Mexican standoff about who can have the biggest flag I think we should try and reframe it I mean I think that you know because they do want us they do want us to kick off over flags they want us to get angry and all the rest about it and I'm like you I'm like if you want to put a flag behind your tree so I don't care I mean I obviously think it's very patronizing but I think we should reframe it as what shows more love for your country wanting to feed all of its children instead of forcing them to you know forcing hundreds of thousands of children into poverty into hunger or sticking a flag behind you very easy to put a flag behind you just buy a flag you can get one on Amazon I'm sure probably get one for a fiver whack it behind you done or is it about you know what's more patriotic than wanting to rid your own country of injustice not everyone on the left is comfortable talking about this I get that but I do think you can redefine it I'm not talking about the history of people who fought at great cost and sacrificed for the rights and freedoms we have today about making sure that every person has a decent affordable home everyone has a decently paid job everyone has a decent standard of living no child grows up in poverty that shows love for your country what what better way to express your love for country than that and I think you know that's what Podemos have done in Spain it's a different context I mean I can't you know in Ireland I can't talk about this because obviously Irish nationalism is about struggle against the oppression the oppression nation against empire our nationalism clearly you know so not our nationalism but patriotism demarcating it from nationalism attached to the history of empire there are complexities involved in that I get that but I do think we can redefine it and we can talk about the struggles of our ancestors and we can talk about real genuine love for your country's ridding justices not not sticking a flag behind you and expecting people to love you off the back of it if Labour do it by the way it looks so inauthentic because I just don't think anyone thinks yeah their heart really beats a little bit faster when they see the flag it just doesn't look authentic it looks like you know people trying to be down with the kids the equivalent whatever that is with patriotism and I think inauthenticity great some people I think instead of fighting on that terrain I mean it's just finally on that is what Ed Miliband did which I you know I think he would regret is when he was leader of the Labour Party his big passion was inequality but he did lots of he didn't do a single speech about inequality he just did speeches about immigration and that didn't diffuse the issue it drove it up the agenda and obviously the Conservatives could always outflank the Labour Party on immigration it just shifts the political debate onto terrain that's favourable for your opposition so what you should do is shift it onto your terms and obviously things like the fact that people in this country children cannot afford to eat I think that is obviously terrain which is far better for the Labour Party and they can claim it's patriotic if they want I think that would be a better approach I think the thing we've probably got to watch out for you've said how big are the flags going to get I think it also might be how many new accessories are we going to get because you will have noticed Tory Ministers used to only sit in front of flags then Labour Shadow Ministers started sitting in front of flags now Tories tend to have a picture of the Queen so Matt Hancock used to have that really weird sort of pink-blue picture of the Queen you had Robert Jenrick there with the Queen so presumably now Keir Starmer is going to have to have both a flag and the Queen then you get the Tories with I don't know what's going to come next empty jars of Branson pickle just sort of subtly on the shelves behind them I can't wait to see what those new backgrounds look like by the time we get to the next general election Owen Jones thank you so much for joining me this evening it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on Tiskey Sour it's a huge honour cheers for having me buddy when are you next on? we're doing a show on Sunday with Dave Renton who's a great scholar on fascism and someone else who I need to confirm and the question is is Britain descending into fascism we've moved to 12pm on a Sunday because the days are getting warmer and people might want to go out with their family rather than watch me babble but anyway it goes out and then it goes out as a podcast the next day it'll be a great show talking about yeah the nature of the British the political character of the government it's trajectory and I keep going about hungry but I do think it's a warning so yeah great thinker Dave Renton I look forward to it so thank you so much for watching tonight if you are a supporter of Navarra Media thank you so much you make this all possible I say you make this all possible I point to my bedroom I would normally be in the studio when I say that if you are not already a supporter of Navarra Media please do go to navarramedia.com forward slash support under the equivalent of one hour's wage a month like the video for now you've been watching Tiskey Sour on Navarra Media good night