 Our guest this week is Adam Vaskal, who recently spoke at our Austrian Economics Research Conference here in Auburn. Adam's got a great and provocative new book out entitled Generational Poverty, An Economic Look at the Culture of the Poor. And in this book, Adam takes an unabashed look at the cultural aspects of why some people are poor and why they stay poor. And as you might imagine, Adam concludes that the state is a villain rather than a champion of the downtrodden. Now Adam addresses the issue of poverty not only from the perspective of an economist, but also based on his experiences in the Big Brothers Big Sisters program with a young man in Tennessee named Jermaine. His ultimate message is that culture matters and that the state destroys that very culture. Stay tuned for a great interview. Adam Vaskal, thank you so much for joining us this weekend. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Well Adam, first and foremost, tell us about your experience with the Big Brothers program and how it led or indirectly or indirectly led you to write your new book Generational Poverty. Sure. I get the question quite often, did I join the program to write the book and that's not the case actually. It was more, I felt like the organization provided a service where I really thought that I could do some good and help and then I just learned so much along the way that I thought people might be interested in hearing and learning about for themselves about his community and the poor community in general that prompted me to write the book. But yeah, I joined the Big Brothers program and did the Imachi program, which is for a child that has an incarcerated parent. So there's a little added challenge, not that many in the program have two parents in their lives anyway, but it was a little bit of a different challenge with him from that standpoint. Well, having gone through this, is the Big Brothers Big Sisters program in general something you could recommend to people or is it riddled with sort of left wing PC thought? You know, you'll find that and I mean, I'll admit, I had some discussions with a few of the workers in the program and there are very much many lefties in that program and we certainly did not see eye to eye on politics at all, but I do think that you can do a lot of good because of the one-on-one interaction that takes place between you and the child and that's the important part because what you're really trying to affect is a cultural change that can only, unfortunately, because it's so difficult to do, only take place by actually working with them and challenging some of the notions and ideas that they have about what is and is not acceptable. So I would certainly recommend it. I learned a lot and I can't guarantee that you're going to have any kind of success, at least not to the standards that you might expect, but I definitely think it's fulfilling in different ways and you'll certainly learn a lot and I think you'll do a lot of good even if it doesn't quite measure up to what you're hoping for. Well, do you mind telling us briefly how your little brother Jermaine is doing these days? No, not at all. He's doing okay, fell into a, basically fell into the welfare trap that we're all very much aware of despite my best efforts. I would say the final nail in the coffin for him was really when he got diagnosed with Crohn's because in addition to the welfare that he is eligible for, he was also able to get disability and so he's basically able to have his own apartment. He can afford a few things that seem to keep him happy, at least enough to where it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to go out and find work, at least not in his head or even the minds of those around him. He did graduate from high school, which is a pretty good achievement in his neighborhood and he's really a nice, likable young man. He is fairly responsible even though that definition might be a little relative to whoever's giving it, but because of that, he's really entrusted to take care of his mother's children, his sister's children. They have aunts that have children where the ant might be either on drugs or in jail and so their household is filled with many kids and he is really leaned on heavily to take care of them. I can talk about the good qualities that he has, but unfortunately the life that he's in and the trap that he has fallen in is all too common and almost to the point where we expect it to happen. Well, personally, I can say that I admire you for taking on this responsibility. I'm sure libertarians are often criticized for being all talk and no action, so I'm sure it wasn't easy. I'm sure it was eye-opening, but let me ask you this. Your book really unapologetically looks at the cultural aspects of multi-generational poverty. Tell us why culture matters so much and why the left bristles when you even mention culture and poverty. Yeah, thank you. I mean, I do feel like it to your point that it is important if you have the opportunity as an economist to experience what you're working on firsthand, I think it does help because it's so hard to refute firsthand knowledge of what's going on. And that's exactly what I found is what you described is that that generational nature of poverty is a cultural problem that only gets worse as the generations continue. And really, I would say the main theme of my book kind of hinges on this idea of Uncle Tom in a situation I call Uncle Tom Syndrome, where the culture has developed around this character of Uncle Tom, where a brief history, I guess he was a noble character at first that was a slave that would not give away the location of a couple of runaway slaves, popular story to shame and basically to attract probably more white people to go attend these shows. They changed Uncle Tom to a character that was a sellout, a character that would roll over on any request from his master, even to his own detriment or to the slaves around him. And then ultimately, when these slaves escaped, this new Uncle Tom character gave away their location. So this seems to be the character that has resonated over time, not just with the African-American community that's experiencing poverty, but throughout all demographics. And so many are so worried about selling out and the portrayal of selling out that they have behaviors that are cultural that prevent them from achieving any level of success. So I mean, it's hard to work for a boss, you know, when you're going to be disrespectful or not be willing to start at the bottom. I mean, if you have to wear a uniform to work, if you have to be polite. I mean, even looking at standard English, abstaining from drug use and then other items that have been introduced as culturally acceptable, like maybe being in a gang or other illegal activities. I mean, these other things have kind of crept in. Promiscuity is another big issue that are acceptable. And so you've had this rearranging of their culture in such a way that makes it incredibly difficult to leave the welfare state. Let's talk about how the left sees this social and economic unraveling. You know, we're told time and time again that poverty exists due to lack of educational opportunities, due to a lack of social welfare programs and institutional biases against the poor, against minorities. But does more education or more job training or more welfare really create a more prosperous society? Or is it a culture and mindset that really matters? That's a good question. I mean, I've had that conversation with with some of my friends that are are left leaning and and of course, even I think in their community and their in their estimation, there are some different interpretations of what we're accomplishing with welfare. I mean, some are, well, you know, I don't want, you know, this an old old widow to to be cold at night. And I want to make sure that people are fed and you can cover that question. You know, that's that's a hard debate. But I think if you if you really go to the issue of, well, do you think that the money that we spend on welfare is actually pulling people out of the welfare state, you know, pulling people out of poverty and giving them a chance to move forward? Then even I think in a more liberal context, you may have some argument there because statistically, it just doesn't do that. I mean, it doesn't I mean, as we expand our welfare program, we have not seen more and more people leaving poverty. It's been quite the opposite where we've had more and more people added to it. And then you add in some of these cultural ideas where where people are having children early and often where it's just growing and growing and growing because parents good or bad seem to pass down what they've learned to their children. And if that culture is being passed down, then that's just the way that it's going to going to work. So I think when you're when you're working with someone or talking with someone that's that's on the left, I mean, that's really what you have to look at is, you know, do you feel like what you're working on is actually pulling people out of poverty? And if they say yes, then I mean, you have to try to to ask them, well, do you have any proof of that? I mean, do you have anything that you've seen that works? And and it's it's such a difficult, difficult situation because it is really hard to find programs and things that are in the works that are actually progressing people out of poverty. When it comes to examples of how culture matters, it's very un-PC to discuss this. Adam, but why do some immigrants seem to prosper here in America and within just a generation or two when so many native born groups seem mired in poverty generation after generation? Oh, well, I'm glad you asked that. My my dad is actually an immigrant. My grandparents, my dad and my aunt moved here from Hungary during the Revolution. And and they they always had the same kind of question. I really I hate that they my grandparents have passed away before I was really, I guess, old enough to talk with them more about and this kind of idea. But I do remember a lot of conversations with them from my dad, especially about how people act in this country and how they don't really understand what real poverty is. And and in this country, I mean, you have poor people, but they're surrounded by opportunity and they're surrounded by other wealthier people, which is statistically a better way or at least gives you the chance of progressing. But if you're there are a lot of other countries where you're looking at a very poor group of people and they're surrounded by other very poor people as well. And it makes it incredibly difficult for them to find any kind of opportunity. And certainly not the opportunity that we have in this country. So I mean, when my when my grandparents and my dad, my aunt, when they immigrated here, you know, I mean, my grandfather, I mean, that was was not optional for my dad. I mean, he he was going to go to school and he was going to do well and he was going to go to college. And my aunt, who has cerebral palsy, actually has multiple master's degrees as well. And so you're looking at an immigrant with cerebral palsy that has graduate degree. And so I would say the level of understanding for my grandparents is not particularly high when when we look at the people in this country that don't take advantage of their opportunities. Right. Now, have you studied much of the work of people like Charles Murray and Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell on the whole welfare question? I have a little bit. My most of my research, it was really difficult to research my book because it is a little I mean, of course, the PC side is very difficult when you're looking at it from from the angle that I looked at it. And then, of course, most of the most of the information that I found that was that was accessible, I guess, was more from the left. But but, you know, I have read a good bit of Thomas Sowell. I do need to probably expand my reading on this area from from more Austrian and more, you know, from our viewpoint. But but, you know, it's it's not everything has been kind of. I mean, there's been a lot of different folks that I have have read for for this book. But but yeah, definitely Thomas Sowell. But I I'm sure there are others that have made great contributions. Well, when it comes to welfare states, Hans Hoppe has talked about the concept of high trust societies as being better suited to fostering and for lack of a better term, an effective welfare state where you have property rights, contract rights, common law dispute resolution. But cynically, Adam, it seems like the state works to create a low trust society in order to make itself the state indispensable. And by low trust, I mean, the state tends to foster divisions along racial, social, economic, cultural lines that almost necessitate a welfare state because we don't have the high trust required for sort of private means of charity. Oh, I would agree that completely. I had a gentleman ask me a question during the I think it was during the author's forum that was very similar to that. And it was kind of along the lines of, well, if we feel that the welfare state is expanding poverty, then what happens if we cut the welfare state? You know, what what happens then? You know, you've got all these people that are depending on it to live. And, you know, and that that's that's the difficult question is how do we unwind it? But part of the solution is that trust element where we're we're hoping that the local communities will pick up the slack. And that's really the whole idea behind a free society is that we're going to let you keep, you know, let you keep your taxes, you keep what you earn. I mean, that's the goal and that when you have that trust type of society and you start working with the poor in your community, you really start to fix the issue because not only are you you helping them financially, which is, I guess, the big goal on the left, but that financial assistance comes with some support and guidance from someone who can guide you in the right direction. I mean, and that's the more important part is that, you know, if if I'm going to help someone, I'm going to expect them to do certain things in return versus a taxing system where you take and then you give money to someone that, you know, they have no face behind whoever's granting them the money and they can kind of do whatever they want. So I completely agree. I mean, I think from a from a trust standpoint, that's the way that you have to do it is to trust that the local community will will pick up the slack of the government and the in the impact on the economy from less taxation and less regulation in that area will will create some other opportunities as well within that society. But ultimately, you're going to have to have people in that community pick up the slack when it comes to trust, though, it seems to me that multiculturalism plays a role here. You may recall in just the past few years, both Japanese and German officials, public officials have been very frank in speaking publicly about the downsides of multiculturalism. So when it comes to the welfare state and when it comes to trust, how did we arrive at this sort of unquestioned belief that diversity is ever and always good and that this is an article of faith of sorts for progressives today? Yeah, it is an interesting study. I didn't I didn't look at it that closely other than maybe the the distrust that takes place between many in the poor community and authority figures. And I mean, I'm not just talking about police officers, but I mean, you have a distrust that this seems to take place even between business owners or people that might give you a job, possibly teachers. And even I mean, somewhat and maybe in the church, I mean, it's really there's a lot of really strange instances that I saw when I was doing my research and doing my reading. And and yeah, I mean, you know, you find some cultures that are that are very much shut in and very much into preserving their way of life. And then you have other cultures that are that separate themselves from from just being distrustful of others around them because they feel like others are there to take advantage of them or whatever the case may be. But yeah, I don't know. It's it's an interesting question. I don't know how that how that really came to be. I think I think maybe some some media and some politics, you know, got involved where being divisive in that in that kind of way was a was a good way to run a platform or to to drum up emotion. I mean, I don't know. It's it's interesting question, though. Adam, I want to recommend your new book to people. A lot of the attendees at our recent Austrian Economics Research Conference really enjoyed your presentation of your paper, which was sort of an absence of the book. Ladies and gentlemen, the book is called Generational Poverty, an economic look at the culture of the poor. And it's available at Amazon.com. It's available from the publisher, Vernon Press in Vernon, V-E-R-N-O-N and Amazon.com. And Adam Vaskal, thank you so much for your time. Ladies and gentlemen, have a great weekend.