 Welcome to this edition of Abledon on Air, the one and only program that for a long time has been focusing on the needs, concerns and achievements of the definitely abled in Vermont and beyond. I'm Lauren Silat. I'm Lauren Silat. And on this informative hour-long episode, we take a look into Washington County's services for the mentally and physically challenged. Before that, let's take a look at what New York was in the 1970s when Geraldo Rivera jumped over the wall with ABC News and Willowbrook State Hospital for the mentally and physically challenged. Let's take a look at this. The way to Bear Mountain is a lovely looking place called the Letchworth Village Rehabilitation Center. Set among the hills and woods of suburban Rockland County, a passerby could easily mistake the place for a country club or a college campus. But the early morning mist gave the place an eerie feeling like a set from a horror movie. And once inside, that feeling became suddenly appropriate. Congressman Mario Biagi had planned an official tour of the facility for 10 o'clock in the morning. But by this time, wary of what I felt were attempts on the part of the Department of Mental Hygiene to make the situation look better than it really was, my camera crew and I got there two hours before that. As the hour of the official tour approached, bundles of clothing were brought in for the children and the process of cleaning up was begun. Even so, none of these cosmetic changes could do much to improve the place. This is Mrs. Nixon. I'm Congresswoman Biagi. How are you? Why are these patients unclothed? We don't have enough clothing. We don't have the proper help to keep clothing on them. We have a few nudists that will not keep clothes down. They will pull them off. But most of all, we don't have the help to keep the kids properly dressed. We're talking about more money for them, for the institution. Well, that we could use because then we will have more help. How understaffed are you? Very understaffed. There are days we have four or five attendants to take care of a hundred condition in a very beautiful ground, very well built buildings. Inside we have housed the children of many of our citizens who are subjected to what appears to be the worst possible conditions I've ever seen in my life. I've visited penal institutions all over the country. I've visited hospitals all over the country. I've visited the worst brigs in the military. Nothing's I've never seen anything like it. About 25% of the funding for Letchworth Village comes from the federal government, and one of the requirements for continued eligibility is that there be 80 square feet of space per patient. Here they get only 35 square feet. In the face of this terrible overcrowding, there was a ward there that stood empty because they hadn't the funds to hire the 38 people it would take to staff it. How can this be? Well, we need 38 additional positions and we would be able to staff this area and reduce our overcrowding in overcrowded areas. That's a sun, my God, a sun. Well, we have submitted and we're expecting it. We might be getting them and then we'll be able to reduce the overcrowding inside mayors. Welcome back and to this conversation in this part of this hour we have Zach Hughes, peer support specialist for Washington County. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on Ableton on Air. Thank you. What are the missions and goals of Washington County Mental Health? Well, I have to say the mission is to support the individuals in our community to enable them to live independent productive lives in our community to the best of their ability. Okay. Now when we say independent to the best of your ability, what exactly does that enable? Well, I mean, we all want to be able to go home at night and live our lives, right? Go downtown, shop and do all kinds of things in our lives, right? So in order to do that productively and be part of the community, even work in our community, we have to sometimes have help with that. And that's what our organization does. Our organization believes in self-determination as well with folks. What exactly is self-determination and being independent? Being able to be able to do things for oneself, take responsibility for actions if possible, stuff like that. Now, when we talk about your pure advocacy, what exactly do you do for Washington County? How does being, well, you were getting services and then now you're providing them without saying too much about your own case. I mean, if you want to say you may, but how does that, having one foot in one foot out, how does that work with Washington County being the fact that you're providing services? Well, I would certainly say it's a balance, but it's also an asset and that the peer, like myself, knows what's going on in a sense because I go through it every day. And I do mean every day, wake up every day and I get out of bed just like anyone else as far as, and I do receive services. So I do work here and receive services. This is a unique arrangement. Okay. Does that, in certain models, in certain states, maybe that might not be the case. That's correct. But Vermont, you can get services and work for the system. Yes, you could. In your opinion, what are the misconceptions that people, in terms of mental health, what are the misconceptions of people with mental health challenges when they first meet them? Well, I think a misconception is like a movie, people are scared of somebody, like an axe murderer or something. They don't want them around their kids, want folks around their kids, their communities. And the truth is that we're just like anyone else in the community. A few years ago, I challenged and said that I believe everybody goes through some sort of mental health issue. Okay. So everybody is challenged in some way? I would challenge, no, what I'm saying is I would throw out a challenge to somebody to say that I believe that everybody goes through some sort of mental health issue. Okay. Now, would you say, well, since you mentioned Hollywood and television, how do you think, because, you know, obviously the system is broken and needs to change, but how does Hollywood or television depict good, bad and indifferent? Sometimes they depict people in a bad light. How do Hollywood and television do you think depict people with mental illness or challenges in a sense? I would say that they depict them, depending on the way I've seen it, they don't depict them the same way. I think it's worse. Okay. All the movies they make on these topics, I see the movies they make on films. I do watch movies, and I just... You just see, I don't like this and I don't like that. But really without mentioning specific movies, I just say that I really think that the movies sometimes do a disservice. Now, Hollywood also does a service sometimes when they do certain movies that are based on events, because that way we can see them in a better light. Take us through a typical day or typical week of your job of being a pure advocate. Well, I actually see myself as a little bit of everything, I wear different hats. So typically I'm running... I'm co-running a peer line, which is a phone line that people can call from 6 p.m. to 11. I'll explain that in a few seconds here. And I also co-run the Maple House peer crisis bet, which you'll hear about a little bit later here. But typical day is basically getting different things as far as what's needed out there. In addition, I also serve different organizations as needed in board capacities. So it's a different day for me every day. You never know what I'm going to get. I always like to compare to a fire station. Oh, when there's a alarm you come to it. So, explain the crisis line in Vermont. Well, I would say that the line that I I co-run is actually a peer support line or a support line. Not quite crisis, but people do call sometimes in crisis. And we do talk with them. And we actually take calls from anywhere inside the United States at this point. So your hotline is not... So people can understand it a little bit more. It's not taking the place of 9-1-1. That's correct. I need someone to talk to, so let me call. That's correct. Okay. Speaking of which, we mentioned crisis. Mental health, sometimes you have crisis where people have... What's the word? Meltdown or nervous breakdown. You're being a peer support person. Yes. How would you be able to help someone? How do you help in those circumstances? How can you help in those circumstances? Well, simply just being there with the person is probably the most productive approach. I think I've seen a lot of workers get in there and try to talk to the person, all that. But I actually would like to say the most productive thing is just being there. That's one approach. And I would just say that would be my first approach would be coming in and looking to see what's going on. And some of my approaches, the person just wants me to sit with them. They don't want me to just say, how are you doing, Joe? Good to see you today. They want you to be a good listener. They want me to be a good listener. And I think that's probably the most challenging thing. Why do you view that as being the most challenging thing of being a good listener? Because I want to help that person. It would be hard to explain, but I would say that I want to help fix that problem right away. Initially, that's the initial thought of me and other people, I think. And the idea is, wait a minute, all they want is me to listen to them, which is helpful as well. But I think the idea is people think that, and sometimes me, that I need to fix this problem right away. And maybe we could play this out a little bit. Do you bring in other agencies to help you? I mean, obviously, you're not a toolbox. You're not an instant fix or a crazy glue, if I may say, that you have to set some kind of boundaries yourself because you have a life outside of your job. That's right. What are the rules of being a peer advocate in terms of setting those boundaries? Because you need private time to yourself as well. Well, I would say that aside from what we call ourselves, and I use different titles, depending on what I'm doing, peer advocacy is a little different, but I will go with it for now. What I would like to say about the job in general, or multiple jobs in general, is that you do need private time. I had someone in the other day ask me, when do you take a day off? The reality is, I actually do take them off, but it doesn't seem that way. But I think self-care is the most important thing you can have, otherwise we're not going to be here. And I'm going to say that people need to be able to speak up and say, hey, I can't keep doing it at this rate. And I think that's challenging because we all want to be able to help. And I think that self-care is the most important thing you could do in this job. Aside from taking care of the folks you've been asked to help with. And I consider doing it as a team. I've always taken a team collaborative approach. So when I'm involving other agencies and other services in our agency here at Washington County, I consider it a collaboration, which is the most important thing. Because I think before, the peer movement was seen as the enemy by the professionals. Why is that? Why was the peer movement seen as the enemy? Because I think we were seen as we were coming in and interfering with the person's so-called treatment at the time. And I think that now it's being seen as a value tool. Other states deal with things differently because of budget. Do you think there could be, in your opinion, do you think there could be more money added to mental health services, to increase those services? Because there's lack of manpower, lack of money, lack of education. How do you view that? Well, I would like to say the other states do things differently also because of their philosophies. How so? Well, I think that just really briefly here, I just think that they're not well-versed in the same service structure as Vermont is. Vermont is able to provide an array of independent living services and other services for folks in the community because Vermont chose to do this some 20, 30 years ago, almost 40 years ago. Now, they took a choice. And I would like to say that to our legislators that we need to keep going this course. And if we end up taking any cuts in services, we're going to be talking about going back-stepping. Back-stepping household, and then I'll get to the- Well, I'll be straight on. If we lose services, people will be going back into institutionalization. Now, I don't want that. My fellow folks don't want that. My community members don't want that because it's going to cost more money. Since we talked about de-institutionalization, we'll get to more of that in the second half of this program. Being on one zone is extremely important. And you've mentioned that several times. According to the Hill Country Observer, which I can show here. Homes or group homes or respite homes or models of care to get people independently or as independently as possible. Because this never used to be the case. People used to be in institutions locked away. If you had a mental challenge or, for example, back in the 1800s, if you were blind, deaf, so on and so forth, you were institutionalized. Going forward quickly to Adolf Hitler, that person to mention. But he killed someone who was different back then during euthanasia. But when we're talking about independence, we're taking people out of institutions. How do you see that happening more? But more importantly, how do you put them back into society? How do you put them back with your job? Is there a small case where they can teach people to put themselves back into society? I believe that our work at Washington County Mental Health and other service providers in general is to provide that bridge into the community for the minimal people that we still have institutionalized. And I say, I don't have a, well, I'll be straight with you, there's not very many. And that's what makes Vermont very unique. We don't have all these institutions where people go get put. We rely on our community services. This was decided a very long time ago, and Washington County Mental Health is part of that service structure. And I think our goal ultimately is to continue these models of community. When we say models, what exactly is defined as a model in this case? Well, what case would you be referring to? Which case are you referring to? Independence, for example, going into de-institutionalization. I want them to go out into the community. And you have to teach them again, right? You have to tell them how to... It's a worst case scenario, not worst case, but let's say they're just coming out. Their services should be provided as the person needs what they need, and it can range. And again, the good news is it's a very small percentage of people. But as I said, it's reliant on our current community support programs, because if we lose them, or lose, get cut on them, then we start heading down that other road. Another example in terms of cutting, do you work at all with any veterans that need peer support services? I have outside this agency, I have worked with veterans, yes. What is your... in terms of working with them, obviously money is being cut that way too. Money is being cut every which way, but do you see veterans or people with PTSD situation needing more services through what you do? I see that they need support in any way that is possible. It depends on their situation, to be honest. A lot of them need housing and stability, those folks. And as I said, just a person to be there, to be able to give them a little bit of guidance. Guidance, okay. You're a pilot, you're giving someone the controls to guide their own life. So basically in Langman's terms, to kind of wrap this up, a peer support person is someone to give them a roadmap to help them if they're having problems. That's where you step in. Future goals, in your opinion, of Washington County. Where do you see the peer support program going from here? Well, as the roadmap. I still see it expanding. I think that it's a valuable service. It's not just a crisis, bad peer line and anything like that. It's folks like myself, and later you'll be meeting a gentleman by the name of Crocker. These folks who are dedicated to being there for folks, because we've already sort of been in their shoes. But I'm not going to identify as saying I've been in your shoes, because maybe I'm not straight in your shoes, but I've sort of been in the shoe before. But I think the expansion is the road. And I think more things like more expansion into the peer phone lines, the crisis peer beds, and the collaboration between designated mental health agency and the services is very much possible and valuable. How do we see that, in terms of being valuable, because there's a lot of things probably that you don't get paid for, that should do. Kind of stretching yourself a little bit thin. But in your opinion, what has been the pros and cons of being a peer support person? This is like the last question. Well, what the heck? I don't have a life. Because I'm so... Well, I do have... Let me just say, I do take care of myself. Is that a bad question? It's not a bad... No, it's not a bad question, Lawrence. The reality is that I think, depending on how much responsibility that a peer staff takes on, it does affect our personal lives. And I'm going to be honest. So how dedicated we are. Because if somebody wants to be just as a career, so go on, sir. Well, I'll tell you what, if you want it as a career, please don't take anything. It's hard to do this, because I do it every day, but don't take anything personally. Really, and that's hard to do. So I think one of the things is taking on as a career is something you really have to look at. When I first joined 18 years ago, honestly believed it was going to be a smooth... I like to talk to people, so I didn't mind talking to people on the phone. It turns out I have to listen to them. So not only listen to them, I have to sit. And then after that, I have to leave that situation and go to the next situation or go home. And then what? That's where it gets really fun. And that's where you have to realize you do have a personal life outside this work. But when I said I don't have a life, it's just how that sometimes comes into play. Well, I would like to thank you for joining us in this first part of this conversation with telling us about Washington County. When we come back in the second part of this conversation, we'll talk to some more people from Washington County to explain how the system is broken and how we can fix it. All that and much more on Abledon On Air. Stay tuned. Welcome back to the second half hour of this edition of Abledon On Air, the one and only program that focuses on the needs, concerns, and achievements of the different label. I'm Lauren Seiler. I'm Lauren Seiler. And on this hour-long edition, we have been focusing on the services that Washington County provides for monitors in mental health and physical and mental health services. We would like to welcome Crocker Stickney and Kirk Postwate of Washington County. Kirk Postwate is the communications director. And Mr. Stickney is the crisis bed interventionist of Washington County, or if I may say that. Welcome to Abledon On Air. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much for joining us. Crocker, can you explain a little bit about, or because we have a half an hour here, can you explain about what you do and what crisis beds mean and sure? Absolutely. In lame terms. Yeah. Well, our crisis bed is a peer run crisis bed, which means, you know, there have been people who have been diagnosed with, you know, some sort of mental illness. And they oversee some of the folks who come into our facility, which is used as sort of a respite for people who need like a break from their life or a certain situation. And they stay with us from anywhere from three to five days. Do you want to go 72 hour type of thing? Right. Can you explain why that is? Why do they need three to five days? Sometimes they just need a short break from the situation that they're in, whether it be from a group home or maybe from the hospital. Occasionally we'll take folks from there. We just, we're in the business of helping people who have had similar experiences. Now, Mr. Postway, you've been in the public relations field for a couple of years, for many years. The media is horrible sometimes in putting people in a bad light, mental health challenges. How do you view the system being broken and how we can, how do you think we can fix it? Well, as we had discussed when we were kind of talking about the show, from my perspective, and I think what we like to think at Washington County Mental Health is that, you know, what we're doing as part of the system works really well. You know, in central Vermont here, you know, we really do our best to collaborate with other human services agencies. Oh, it could be anyone from the Central Vermont Council on Aging to Capstone Community Action to Down Street Housing Group to help people, you know, find housing just of a right schools, you know, the hospital, and then peer advocacy groups as well as Zach was saying previously, you know, we really try and, our executive director, Mary Moulton, is on a mission to collaborate with other groups because, you know, by doing that, you get some of the best outcomes. And in terms of the media and getting the story out, what we're finding is we used to really function under the idea that you don't want to bring attention to, you know, the folks who were helping. Why is that? Because they want privacy, right? They don't want to have people, you know, necessarily judging them, you know, because there is a lot of stigma still associated with people who have mental health and developmental challenges. Would you mind explaining a little bit about what that stigma is or has been? Yeah, I mean, essentially, it's the idea that, you know, some of the mental health challenge or developmental disability is, you know, different and therefore not someone that you can have a good connection with. And, you know, I've certainly found that to not be true in my own personal life, you know, through work and beyond. And, you know, stigma, unfortunately, is something that puts up barriers both for the person who might want help and for people who might want to offer them help or just, you know, connect with them or have a relationship. And so in many ways, it's not necessarily something that is on purpose, but it's out there. And the more we can talk about this and get the stories out about, you know, the good outcomes that people are having by, you know, seeking help and then doing what Zach and Crocker are doing, you know, in helping others to, you know, get through crisis situations, etc., the more that we can have people integrated into the community, living productive, happy lives. And, you know, that's, as Zach said earlier, that is, you know, probably the primary goal of Washington County mental health, is to get people having good lives in the community. Now, certain words way back when are not used anymore. The word retarded, lunatic, lunacy, certain words in the mental health field are not used. In terms of stigma, like you had mentioned, why aren't words used anymore or why shouldn't they be in your opinion? Well, I think just like we were talking about, because in terms of stigma and the way it, you know, makes the person either appear to other people or feel themselves, it's not helpful. And also how they identify as well. You know, I think if you put a label on somebody, it becomes very difficult to overcome. Labels are for medication. There you go. Right, right. And I feel that, you know, the more you're able to realize that somebody is more than their diagnosis, I think that's really important and something that should be encouraged. What if they don't want help? Does anybody refuse help? Can it, how does that work? If someone needs help from Washington County? I don't want it. What is it? Or a social worker wants to get them help. And then I want it. Can a person, does a person refuse help? How does that work? Or has there been problems with that particular situation? Am I saying the wrong thing? That's a good question. That is a good question. I feel that if somebody doesn't want help from Washington County, you know, they have a right to refuse it. But, you know, it can be challenging because you'll be in the hospital or you'll be in a group home and you'll have a case manager who's trying to help you out a little bit. It can be challenging trying to navigate that and understand what the person wants as far as their needs are concerned. Okay. Now, you run a crisis bed facility. There's protocol. You have a screener. You have certain staff, social workers, case managers. In your opinion, well, explain what a screener does in your realm of work and how they work with the person that they're working with. And then putting together a plan to help get them out of the situation they're in, in terms of crisis. Well, typically the screeners are called if somebody is having a really tough time. You know, it could be in their personal life. It could be work. It could be, you know, any myriad of things. But they'll get a call and you'll talk to a screener who will then, depending on the individual's needs, will be evaluated and kind of placed into the correct spot, you know, that would help them the most at that given point in time. Okay. Now, they can only go into that crisis bed for three to five days. Has there ever been a situation where they've had to stay longer or they're not allowed to stay? We have been a little flexible with that. If people, you know, if they're trying to find housing or if they're, you know, trying to just move out into the community, we have been able to let them stay a little bit longer if need be or shorter, depending on what their needs are. Now, there's this thing as in terms of the apartment situation, living on one zone, which is really important. Okay. What types of support services in terms of Washington County psychiatric or other services can a person get through Washington County? Like living on one zone is real important. So explain that independence. Well, you know, so right, we support people through our community support program, which is for adults with more persistent mental health challenges through our community developmental services program, which is for people with developmental disabilities. And the range that is in that group to live independently, either on their own or potentially in a home with someone who's kind of a live-in provider. How does a live-in provider do it? Well, it depends. But, you know, it could be someone who opens their home up to another person to come live with them. And, you know, they help them with their daily living, you know, potentially provide some transportation. Now, is that ready, right? Are they ready enough to live on their own? Well, that's right. It could be a stepping stone. Some people may want to live with someone else, you know, for their whole life because they just need that level of support and that's okay. Some people do end up moving, it's a stepping stone and they move to more independent living, either through living with one other person or in a group home, as Crocker had mentioned. But then once a person is living on their own, you know, we could offer them case management services. So someone to check in with them in a consistent way to say, hey, what's going on? How are you doing? You know, to kind of make sure that they are working within the treatment plan that everyone's agreed is going to help keep them well, you know, connecting them to other groups in the community that they may want to be part of and that might be beneficial to them. You know, and then anything from transportation to, you know, getting to their doctorate, their primary care doctor's office, just really kind of helping them with daily life. Like, you know, Zach was saying, having people living in the community, enjoying their life, living as independently as they can, but not being isolated. You know, I think that typically is a goal is to make sure people aren't feeling isolated, feeling cut off because that's a, you know, a pretty consistent, just that isolation can be a consistent symptom of, you know, mental illness, if you will. And not getting not getting supported, not having those connections with other people to either help them talk through a challenge or just live their life and have a, you know, a connection. Question which comes to mind in terms of the independent living, if someone goes to live with someone for like a home share situation, let's say, in terms of Washington County, does that person who is opening their home to someone with a mental health or physical situation, does that person get trained through Washington County or some type of in-service to say, okay, we're bringing this person, this is what they have, this is their medical situation, this is what you do, or how does that work? Yeah, you know, I don't have a lot of specific details, but certainly- I'm sorry to bring that. Well, no, that's okay because I would say, yes, I mean, we want to make sure that a home that someone goes into is safe and, you know, has people who kind of understand, obviously, you know, the needs of the person who's going to move in there and can, you know, support them as best they can. And that, you know, could be us offering the support, it could be certain state departments offering some of the trainings and ongoing support. So yeah, but we, yeah, I want to make sure that, you know, a home that someone moves into is ready to make sure they can help. And if it's not, how can they make it ready? Yeah, I think maybe pursuing, you know, making sure that that person does do some training and, you know, it would be based on the needs of the individual who was moving in as much as possible. Now, crisis situation, which comes to you, lack of manpower has been the problem or lack of money has been the problem for years. No matter what state you live in, I know Vermont is doing a great job, but how do you, how can we, or if anybody from any legislators are watching this program, how can we say to them, how can we change to get more funding? Or how do you see it, what's the word? How can we word it where we need more funding for this type of service through Washington County? Well, because crisis intervention is important. It is, yes, it's very important. This lack of beds, lack of manpower. Yeah. I feel that there's a, you know, especially in our field, there's a fair degree of turnover as well, which why is that? Well, because there are some challenging scenarios that some of our case managers have to deal with. And I feel if we could find more resilient employees, I feel like it would be beneficial for the company and at the same time advocate for more funding for our programs as well, because there is a problem related to, you know, not enough beds being available to the mental health community. Now I notice, how many beds do you have? How many beds? Yeah. Our facility has two beds. So this is the Maple House, right? Correct. Yeah. So two beds, not a small facility, but there's more staff? Or how does that work? Well, we've got five people on staff. It's, I'd rather not say their names at this time. Sure, no problem. We do have five people on my team that I oversee and they oversee two beds. One is the Maple House bed. The other is the transitional bed, which is more geared towards people who are homeless and need a longer stay to stabilize and hopefully integrate back into the community. Okay. Integration. Explain integration back into the community. Well, if they have, you know, certain difficulties, they're able to use some of the resources provided by Washington County mental health to try and, you know, get your own housing, be able to provide yourself, look for jobs for work, you know, just basic things that, you know, people should be able to have to lead a productive and, you know, somewhat normal life. In your opinion, why are people, or what are the misconceptions around people with mental challenges? Are people might be scared of dealing with that? Well, I think there's a lot of stigma. Like Kirk was talking about beforehand, I feel like there's a lot of stigma around people with mental illness. You know, there's this general assumption that they're crazy or, you know, you shouldn't talk to them or, you know, any myriad of things. And I feel that the media especially doesn't help with that. Your opinion, sir, on that same question. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a pretty accurate take on it is that, you know, there's, there's a lot of preconceived notions. I think that people have, and unfortunately, it's based on a lot of this, you know, what we were talking about with stigma, that there's information being put out, you know, that may apply to a very small percentage of people, but that in fact, most people with mental health, you know, want to be connected with other people, mental health challenges, we all have mental health, right? You know, want to be connected, you know, strive towards what we call recovery, which is having an experience of a mental health challenge, getting better and reintegrating into life and, you know, a community based life with friends and family. And, you know, for instance, with, you know, a lot of the media attention right now on gun violence, there's discussion about, you know, mental health being the prime component of that potentially. And the numbers just don't bear that out. Literally, just the data shows that a very small... Explain a little bit about that, sir. So, a very small percentage of people who have, you know, been involved with gun violence on the mass level, you know, that we're kind of focusing on now, had any sort of a mental health diagnosis. And in fact, I've got a little information here that, you know, I just read a quote last night that said there's really no connection between an individual with a mental health diagnosis and mass shootings. That connection, according to all experts, doesn't really exist. And that was from someone who works at the Baseland Center for Mental Health Law. Is that through Washington? It's not. I mean, that was a, you know, some dad I got off, you know, doing some research on the internet. But essentially, you know, someone typically with a mental health challenge is 10 times more likely to be the victim of a crime than to perpetrate a crime. Ask, how so in terms of being a victim, sir? Well, you know, just the vulnerabilities of maybe being isolated from a support system, you know, being, you know, less likely to be able to defend themselves in a variety of ways. I guess the main point I'm trying to make is oftentimes, you know, the media and messaging out in the media, not just the media, but messaging out in the media that gets picked up is that you should be afraid of someone with a mental illness. That you should be afraid. Yeah. And in fact, I mean, that is not what I've experienced in the, you know, 15 years I've been in the field. I mean, are there crisis moments? Yes. You know, do people sometimes become unsafe? Yes. But it's a minority of the time. And, you know, the majority of people, as I was saying, with the mental health challenge or developmental disability or using substances, for that matter, you know, want to seek help, want to get better, want to be well. And, you know, I think that's just a big part to be emphasized is that education in the community, you know, letting people find out about how they can be supportive versus having that initial reaction to be afraid of someone else can really go towards making our community stronger. And the stronger our communities are, the more embracing they are of everyone, the less likely people are to feel isolated and to therefore feel desperate enough to potentially, you know, do something that is harmful to themselves, right? Or others? As far as crisis, like you said, being harmful to oneself, in terms of alternatives to medication, because, you know, medication is a big part of mental health issues. In terms of what Washington County provides, what are some alternatives to medication regimens that you guys might be able to shed light on, if any? You want to speak to that? Yeah, sure. Well, we kind of look at medication as being a part of the necessity to be well. We don't, you know, we do do med witnessing. We do help people take their meds, if need be, but we don't, you know, it's not a cure-all, if you will. You know, we feel like recovery, you know... Well, if you need medication... If you need medication, it's part of recovery, but it's not, you know, the main focus of of what a person is going through, and we, you know, we do the best we can to listen to folks and really kind of work with them and try to coordinate so that they can, you know, live productive lives. Okay. What are some future goals that Washington County might have or is going to have a new thing user? Carter, I think you can answer that. Well, one thing I would say is, as an agency, we were just chosen to receive a designation as a center of excellence by the Vermont Care Partners, which is kind of our statewide group that represents all the various designated agencies across the state and specialized services agencies, which typically focus on just working with people with developmental disabilities. And so, you know, that was a really big honor for us. And when I was thinking about this, I thought, well, that's kind of what we want to do in the future is to continue to move into that realm of being and continuing to be a center of excellence. And I'll just quickly read something because it sums it up. It's just that a center of excellence is a great place to get care and a great place to work. It's an organization that's an integral part of the overall health neighborhood, meaning, you know, the hospital to the home health hospice, you know, agency to mental health agency to schools, you know, kind of making sure everybody's connected and talking to have a real strong community based web of services network of services. And it really looks at whole person care, you know, supporting resiliency and recovery and looking for really good outcomes. I mean, we are focused on that, you know, we I'm happy to work here. I think it's a it's a wonderful place to work Washington County mental health. That is and, you know, working with guys like Zach and Crocker and just, you know, all the other people I work with, there's a lot of people who really committed to working here. And despite the workforce struggles that we do experience, which have to do with what Crocker was talking about, there are a lot of people who've worked at this agency for 10 20 plus years. And I think that speaks to the fact that, you know, people really love the work they do. And the last question is, why is there a high turnover of people that are working in this field and are not anymore and should be still? I mean, you know, why is there a high turnover of people working? Well, I think there's, you know, there's not one definitive answer to that. I mean, you know, in this field, you know, you've got to be in it because you enjoy doing it and you enjoy seeing people succeed and helping them kind of along their path to recovery. And that being said, you know, recovery looks different for everybody. So, but just trying to understand that, you know, you want to help people move forward, but there are limits to what you can do as a case manager or explain real quick some of those limits that might in terms of your position as crisis bed person. Well, stepping back or boundaries or what? Stepping back and having boundaries are really important in this field. And to be able to establish those boundaries is important as well. But why is there boundaries that have to be set? I mean, why do you think in your opinion? Just to maintain professionalism in the, in the field. Sir, in your opinion, why is there boundaries set with working with certain folks? Yeah, well, I think if I'm not saying too much or no, that's great. I think just what Crocker said, I mean, I think within the context of this work, you want to set boundaries to model them, you know, for other folks who may struggle with having boundaries. In other words, respecting another person's time or their space even, you know, and that is, it's important within this work because you I was just thinking when you were saying what you, your answer was Crocker that you have to have grit in this work because it's hard, right? The day to day of it can be kind of difficult. And, you know, because it's not a straight uphill trajectory of recovery. Sometimes it's up and down. So you have to look at the long term and you have to be flexible, right? Because what, you know, we may want for the person doesn't always materialize in the way we thought it did. But as long as we're being supportive to what they want, you know, that's really key in helping them in those moments when it's difficult. And I did want to just say about the, the, you know, the difficulty with keeping a consistent workforce is it's a difficult job. I mean, this is not always easy work. Yeah, there are great returns, but it's hard, you know, the day to day of it can be hard. So, you know, it's not a high paying job and that and the other piece of that is, you know, it's not a high paying job. And, you know, here at Washington County Mental Health, they're taking some really great steps, you know, with the board support and our leadership to do everything we can to pay people a wage that will allow them to stay so they don't have to work two other jobs or that they don't necessarily go work for another place that can pay them more. And so we're, we're kind of in a real consistent struggle with finding a way to get funds allocated to us that will allow us as an agency with all the community knowledge and structures in place to them, you know, get people embedded into those positions and pay them so that they are, you know, feel respected and can do the difficult work that's in front of them to then ultimately make the communities healthy and well. Well, I would like to thank you both for joining us in this edition of Able Dead on Air. For more information on mental health, what is the number for Washington County Mental Health that they can contact you guys? It's 2290591 or you can also visit us at www.wcmhs.org. Would you mind repeating that one more time? www.wcmhs.org or visit us on Facebook. Well, I would like to definitely thank you for joining us on this important edition of Able Dead on Air. Stay tuned for the next episode. I'm Lauren Seiler. I'm Lauren Seiler. See you next time.