 I know that you have recently completed a book that addresses some of these issues that you're talking about. I know that you've talked quite a bit with me about cultural change versus structural change and I'm assuming that you're speaking of those things as they relate to leadership. Yes, that is true. My structural change, and these are things that I have lived through, for example. We increase the number of credits required to graduate. I don't want to say that's bad, but I do want to say that that doesn't automatically mean we're going to improve the educational experience for children, or we may go to a different kind of scheduling pattern for a local school. That's structural in nature, that's not cultural in nature. And I'm not saying that that's bad necessarily, but it's probably not going to improve the product. What you're suggesting is that cultural change should not be overlooked, that it's in fact absolutely critical to positive transformative change in education. So what is cultural change? It's got to get down to every person on the staff in a local Christian school. If I can mention one name, I came into contact with some of the works of Peterson Gay, you may know that name somewhat, and he has defined, through research, certain characteristics that really ought to get at a local staff. For example, there has to be a commitment to learning. And when I say learning in that way, I'm talking about learning for all students. We don't write anybody off, but it also includes learning for the staff. He talks about a culture where a staff is willing to examine the way things are done. By the way, that's the definition of culture in its simplest form, that a culture of a school is just simply the way things are done. So the mindset of that staff has got to be willing to take a look at the way things have been done. And if we see there is a need to change, we need to change. And that's cultural change. Now, Peterson Gay and others have succeeded in defining characteristics of cultural change that I really do believe will make a difference in the quality of educational experience that we offer children. One of the things that I've noticed, and this applies to schools, districts, state educational agencies, and any type of organizational system, is that some operate as closed systems. And they function in a very mechanistic way. They do what they've been programmed to do. They respond to the stimuli around them in the way that has been pre-programmed, facilitated in advance. However, the one thing we know is that our world is constantly changing. We live in a very fluid environment. And organizations, if they wish to thrive, they need to be adaptive. They need to be living organisms. And I think that integral to that is to be a learning organization, a learning culture, one that is self-reflective. And can I ask those difficult questions about existence and reason for existence and that then ultimately translates into behavior and practice? I like your term fluid. I think it has to be that. It cannot be a closed system. We have to be willing to look at different kinds of things. A local school staff needs to know what they really believe. So how do you get them to do that? How do you facilitate that awareness? That requires leadership skills on the part of the person in the position of principle of that local school. Now, I said before, I think that's the starting point right there. We can issue a lot of decrees, and I'm not saying all of those decrees are bad. But if education is to improve, it's got to improve at the local school level. And it begins with that building principle. And that building principle must understand principles of leadership. And the very first thing that that person must do is leave that staff in defining what that school is all about. Now, very simple questions. You know, why are we here? What are we supposed to be doing? Or what do we believe about children? And I think those questions are critical for a staff to answer. So do you think that principle preparation programs then need to be inclusive of this component of understanding organizational culture and structure? By all means, they must be. And I've had experience in working at the college level. And I don't mean really to indict anyone, Tony, but I'm not sure that we're up to date in terms of what we know about the education of children. And it's got to, well, the pre-service programs at the college level have got to reflect what we now know. You know, before we started here a while ago, I made this statement to you and said, we now know how to educate children. I'm saying to you that we do have the knowledge at this point. Now implementing that knowledge and making it active in programs at the local school, that's another issue. And there's a lot of things that will hinder that. But that's the key to improving the education system. So how do you then convince principals to do this, to consider this? Well, it's got to be, that's one thing that the upper echelons of the system created to provide at the education experience. That's one thing that they can do. And so they've got to understand the nature of what they can do. You know, it would be good to define what those upper echelons can do versus what that local building principal can do. Well, it sounds like it's just, it's very, very important that they consider this and that when you have that understanding of what learning really looks like and you can connect that to, you know, the organizational awareness of the fact that, you know, this is a living organism that should be learning and, you know, adapting and evolving. You know, some very exciting things can happen at that local school level. And the thing that I enjoy about our conversation today is, you know, you told me earlier how old you are. And we don't need to say it on here. Well, I don't care if you say it on here. Well, a lot of people your age would be slowing down, but you are passionate. You are active. You are writing books. You're out speaking. And you know, when you think about what's next, I have to ask, you know. I don't know that I can answer that. I don't know what's next for me. And I don't mind telling people my age. I am two months short of 83. And that's okay. I have to stay busy and that's just my nature. Now I have just completed a manuscript for a book and I've been involved very much in private education, in fact, private Christian education for a little while. And the title of this book, which will come out in September, Non-Marks of a Healthy Christian School. But you know what, those marks ought to characterize a local public school. Well, so much of what you've shared today really, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, it makes a lot of sense for schools and it also makes a lot of sense for other types of organizations as well. And you know, if you really had to identify your philosophy of education in a couple of categories or principles, you know, what would that be? I have very, very strong feelings about that. I am pretty conservative when it comes to matters of education. I have strong beliefs myself. So I've already emphasized the importance of knowledge. I think it's important that we understand knowledge about God. I think it's important that we understand some knowledge about the family, about parenting, and things like that. And I often say that I was blessed greatly with the parents that I had. Well, my father did not have a college education. He understood some of these things. And that was so very important. So I have to give both my father and my mother credit. And I think as far as foundational truths, those are things you have to build your life around. Well, it sounds like you've certainly done that and are working with your children and grandchildren to, you know, talk about the importance of those things with them as well. If you had to identify your ultimate legacy that you want to leave for education, as you think about your 60 years in service in a variety of capacities, if you really had to identify what that one thing or two things, what they are, tell me about that. How do you want to be remembered in this field? I think I would want to be remembered, first of all, in terms of a willingness to take a look at what research says. And you've already figured out that I also think that there is a truth that you have to deal with. And the combination of those two things, I think, form a foundation, not only for an educational program, but they form a foundation for life. I want to be remembered for that. But let me tell you, the Lord blessed me with five children, each of whom I love dearly, and it doesn't embarrass me to say that. I want my legacy to be that I have done right by my children. Well, on that note, we're going to wrap our conversation up today. Dr. Souter, it's been wonderful having you on ICF Insights today. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Tony. Thank you for joining us on this edition of ICF Insights.