 In this episode we'll be talking about how to work effectively as a service designer being part of a team with remote collaborators. We'll talk about why emotional intelligence is still underrated in the workplace and what you can do about it and we'll talk about what is the best way to democratize service design and involve other people without oversimplifying it or turning it into a recipe. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. I'm Jacqueline and this is the Service Design Show. Hi, I'm Marc and welcome to the Service Design Show. This show is all about helping you do more work that makes you proud by designing and delivering services that have a positive impact on people and are good for business. My guest in this episode is an absolute wine lover. She started out in the music industry building websites for composers and now she's a service designer at Shopify. Her name is Jacqueline Rieu. Jacqueline has a super interesting perspective on service design as she's part of a company that has a high emphasis on rapid growth and that brings some interesting challenges for a service designer. One of these challenges is how to explain service design to all the people around you and if you are struggling with the same challenge, check out the free training that I've got for you over here which will help you to explain service design in plain English without confusing people. And if this is your first time here on this channel, welcome and I'd love to have you to subscribe and click the bell icon so you'll be notified when new videos are out and that's at least once a week. So that's all for the introduction and now let's quickly jump into the interview with Jacqueline. Welcome to the show, Jacqueline. Hi, Mark. Nice to have you on. For the people who don't know who you are, could you give like a super brief introduction? Sure. So I currently work at Shopify plus, which is the enterprise side of Shopify. So we work with sort of the larger GMV first merchandising volume, I believe they probably not. Yeah. Anyways, the larger GMV merchants on our platform and we continue to grow up market there. But yeah, so I work, I was the first service designer that they hired and so I'm kind of helping them scale that in house and we'll talk more about that. And then I've worked in the financial services industry doing service design at Fannie Mae and Capital One and then was in the music industry for a while before that. Quite an interesting transition. So let's Shopify right now as the first service designer and that's cool. Yeah, it's funny, as I started, I started meeting more and more people who were kind of applying service design methods and service design thinking, but didn't have the formal title of service design. They've all kind of come out of the woodworks, yeah. There will be a new title for my show, like I was doing service design for 20 years without knowing that it was called that way. It seems to be the thing in the industry. Talking about service design, when did you get introduced to the term for the first time? So it's funny, I was listening to the recent episode with Greg and I realized that we'll have a similar story, which is, Jayman will feel very proud of himself. Jayman and Greg are looking for people who aren't familiar with that. Yeah, so I had been accepted to Carnegie Mellon to do my graduate degree in design and I said I was going to go and I was all ready to go to Pittsburgh and do my masters there. And then I got an offer from Capital One to join their design team and I was kind of on the fence. So I had come from music and so I wasn't really keen on, I didn't know much about financial services other than being someone who had to learn a lot about finance over the years myself. But then I heard about the acquisition of Adaptive Path and that kind of changed things because when I was looking at Carnegie Mellon, Adaptive Path was one of the places I would have wanted to intern or to work at. And so when that happened I was like, okay, maybe they're on to something. They just acquired this really great firm. And so anyway, fast forward to, I wonder if I start November 2014, kind of around there. All the 20 something Adaptive Path folks were in DC onboarding and I had a chance to kind of meet several of them face-to-face. And very early on, we were on the ninth floor of our Towers Crescent building and I remember definitely Jayman was there. I'm trying to remember if Patrick Quaddlebaum and Chris Rizdin were also there. But I, again, had just the good fortune of being able to learn from Adaptive Path from like day one. And I had been in product design kind of before that. And when I met them and started hearing them talk about service design, I was like, oh my God, where has this been? This is exactly what I meant to do. Cool. Adaptive Path has had a huge influence on the industry. And still a lot of people have some sort of connection with what happened. Well, yeah, what happened there? Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting to see, you know, several folks are still within Capital One and others have moved on. But I mean, some of, to this day, like Maria Cordell was one of the most influential researchers that I met. She was so meticulous. Like the rigor that she applied to her, to the codification of her research was amazing. And to this day, I tell people, I'm like, go check out Maria's work. Yeah. You've sent me a few topics, of course, like we always do here on the show. A few of them are really, really interesting. You have the question starters already becoming famous service design. So question starters, are you ready to start? You're a musician, so I'm going to do jazz. Yeah, I know. Yeah, let's do it. All right. Three, two, one. And you told me that you would surprise yourself to pick one, pick a random one. And the topic is called remote collaborators, by the way. Yes. Oh yeah, for the folks on the audio. Yeah, for the folks on the audio. I think that, oh, that could draw an interesting twist. Okay, now I'm going to do this. This is the first one that came up that I think. How can we? Sorry, I'll let you do that. Go ahead. All right, okay. So I think one of the reasons that how can we spoke to me was because there's so many, there are a lot of frustrations, let's say, during remote work. A large part of it is bandwidth and buffering. And just like when I first started at Shopify, I feel like I'd be on conference calls and you'd be like, and I'd be like, I can't hear what you're saying. And anyway, so I ended up getting a new cable installed to my house from the cable company. I went that far to get like, I needed to get that fixed. I got a Google Wi-Fi and like got a bunch of mesh, set up a mesh network and kind of strengthen the Wi-Fi connection. So that was like point A. But to the point of remote collaboration. Hold on, Jacqueline. We need to go back three steps I'm sure that there are people watching and listening and have no clue what you mean with remote collaboration. Give us a little bit of context. Yeah, okay. So let's see. So there are maybe folks who telework, which is a little different than, I mean actually you can still remote collaborate through that. So I live in Virginia, Northern Virginia, which is just outside of Washington, D.C. So across the river from the government stuff. And a lot of folks here telework. You can feel it in the traffic patterns, but that just means that you work from home on a Friday or you work from home in the Monday or in the morning and then you go to work later in the day. But it's quite flexible and you're finding a bit, it's definitely something that people are valuing I think more to have that flexibility, myself included that it's not so much about when you work but what you're able to produce and how you work with folks. I once had a manager tell me it's like I don't care if you work it up a phone booth, I just care about you getting your work done. It's funny. I was like where is the phone booth? But so remote collaboration for myself. So Shopify in particular is interesting because all of our, well I'd say the majority of our frontline staff so our merchant success managers who are kind of like account managers that work on the frontlines to support our enterprise merchants. We have gurus which are our support team so they connect via video chat, text, email and phone and then we've got our sales reps that are distributed, some of them are co-located in some of our offices but the sales reps and again they're usually on their phone or they'll do video or they'll go on site. More than half of Shopify's employee base is distributed around the world so we have offices or we have employees in North America, Australia, New Zealand, England, Germany I feel like, I don't know if we're in South Africa yet but we've got Singapore, Japan like they're just like we're everywhere so it's sorry go ahead. I'm really curious about the implications for a service designer because one of the things I think that is inherently part of service design is collaboration like workshops and being around people what's your experience with that how does that work for a service designer? It's funny because we're in this I'm sure like others who are listening have caught wind of this focus on outcomes and really trying to orient the work that we're doing and it should have always been that way but for this period of time as service design was emerging it was a lot about the artifacts and people when I was at Fannie Mae we had a lot of external consultants who would come on board for these engagements and they would create journey maps after journey map or service blueprints like a miscellany of personas and their engagement went off and end after they delivered the artifact and I can go into that later or if anyone wants to talk about that but that was interesting in and of itself and seeing what happens when you have a bunch of different external consultants all working for different accountable executives within an organization and there not being any sort of central place that they all kind of engage to collaborate and so you have all types of different personas and different names and different formats and different colors and all of these artifacts ended up creating a very fragmented experience for our customers because they were done in silos which is a word that I'm sure we've all heard but for remote when the outcomes bit is really thinking about why are we if you want a journey map, why do you want the journey map what is that in service of what is that going to help you understand that you may not have understood before sometimes I tell folks that the act of creating it it's really important about who you have in the room, who you're collaborating with but sometimes the act of just putting stickies up on a wall and moving them around and having conversations that the artifact can be a prompt for conversation and enable alignment an excuse to have the conversation yeah so I mean and Lynn Visard actually did a really great talk she's a Toronto service designer really involved in the community she did a talk at the Canadian services conference last year in Montreal on the material of outcomes and it got us thinking about what are outcomes in service design so sometimes it can be about changing the narrative within the organization getting people to talk differently and think differently and those are less tangible these are not things that we're creating but these are still outcomes of introduction service design yeah getting back to the question yes thank you getting back to the question I was so I'm really curious if I look at the nature of our work it's really about collaboration and then being in the same room with people to have the conversation I was still able to achieve that or so how yeah it's been an interesting period so I've been a Shopify for about 11 months it'll be a year in May and at first I was embedded in specific projects so it was like okay we have this initiative to help people they call it like a self-drive initiative so help people resolve things on their own and grow on their own and part of that was a strategy around growth and how can we scale scale our offering but being embedded in some of these projects it was interesting I kept kind of we would connect remotely we use Google Meet for a lot of our meetings so we're very much involved in the G Suite ecosystem so we use Google Docs, Sheets what the heck is this spreadsheet one oh that's Sheets and Slides Google Star anything and Forms you name it which is a nice step up from Fannie Mae and the very restrictive tooling I had access to there so one is tooling that enables a ton like having access to stuff I started using a program called Whimsical when I was working with these teams Whimsical is new I think they have some feedback because I appreciate feedback so I try to give them kind of like hey you're getting the benefit of a designer that's giving feedback but we had some security issues so we couldn't keep using it but it's a really beautiful UI but it's a browser based whiteboarding so similar to mural or real-time board but it just had a beautiful UI but it wasn't you couldn't open anything on a tablet or smartphone or mobile device you had to use it on desktop in the browser and there were some issues with I could only invite people to comment they couldn't actually also co-edit with me and we couldn't co-create so that was limiting and then I got charged a bunch of money for inviting people to a thing without knowing that I was going to get charged so I said they have some improvements but generally I think they're on the right track it's beautiful what have you found if you have found what are the limits to remote collaboration from a perspective of a service designer a more like part of it is actually I think people getting comfortable with the tools so for a lot of the collaborators you know they may have just gotten comfortable using like Google Sheets or Google Docs or Evernote or whatever it is that they're using to capture things and I look at so there's been a pro and a con to having an organization like Shopify where we do have access to tons of tools whereas Fannie Mae was the complete opposite where everything was like blocked you couldn't access any domain it's a web based tools we're almost like nonexistent so we actually for that we used Microsoft Surface Hub and we had a physical Surface Hub in our office and we had the mural the mural app with the Surface Hub and we could use mural through these Surface Hubs but you had to be co-located in one of our offices you couldn't be at home so that was a limitation anyway so for Shopify having the ability to like try out any tool you want is great but then you find that everyone's using different tools and people get comfortable with those tools and when you're working with especially with folks in different countries where maybe a tool may have broader market penetration in that area over another and so that's just what's more readily available or more convenient or so I've just found the hurdle is in saying hey can we all use real-time board and like just getting them to do that to decide on one tool to use as team right? and then like operationalizing that and saying okay well if this is the tool that we are going to use how do you then level everyone up so that they all have access they have the right templates they have the right training like this is the tool that we all go to and the other complication is working in a product company where a lot of folks use GitHub to do all their notes and to collaborate and I'm not coming from a developer background and that's not a tool that I use but when I propose like you know I propose a new tool I kind of get the like well we don't all want to use that because we're already using this so I think it's a remote collaboration has been on the show a few times and I think it's super interesting because it's not only about collaborating with team members but for instance we've been using real-time board to experiment with remote interviews and creating sort of mimicking the dynamics of a face-to-face interview with props on a table through real-time board I think there's a lot we still can sort of learn in that realm anyway Yeah, I would love right now the one that I'm really finding serves a purpose as real-time board I know Mural is probably the closest competitor to that and I've used them both but right now I'm just having fun with something new but it has the ability to edit which is huge and it's easy enough for people to adopt and have the desktop apps that you can do work offline there's some key details It's fun because on the service design we actually don't talk that much about tooling and tools if you're listening or watching this and you're enjoying and would like to hear more about tools leave a comment we might do some special episodes because usually we don't actually talk about practical tools anyway let's keep it for the tooling part at this because there's more to come. Are you ready to move on? yes on the other side of the spectrum there we go the second topic for today is called emotional intelligence now, which question starter why? what's the question? why is emotional intelligence important in the workplace? this is something that's very near and dear to me it's like let's see there are I think we're definitely in the midst of a time when employees care more and more and we've always cared but for some reason now we're in this period where it's okay to care about our humanity and people being kind to us and hearing us and I was actually at the X4 experience management summit in Salt Lake City and Oprah was one of the keynotes and she talked a lot about intention and how her big point was knowing your intention for doing something and that for her it was about helping people feel heard and that we all just really want to feel heard so it's not just happening in a tech space but this is happening in a lot of industries we're in the midst of an era of our humanity mattering our well-being mattering and basically every day I'm on LinkedIn just kind of reviewing my feed or I'm on my Google feed and that's basically where I get a lot of stuff and there was one, I don't know his name but there was this recent video that came up of some guy speaking basically saying like emotional intelligence is if you don't have if you don't have regard for your employees and their well-being if you don't care, if you don't kind of develop those soft skills, if you don't develop your ability to really hear someone and to leave your ego at the door and to be very humble and curious like you're going to fall behind this is a period where this matters and I think this comes into play in a couple areas in service design one first and foremost is in order I think to be an impactful service designer you have to enter a room with I have to say like compassion, curiosity and courage, those are kind of my three I love those three yeah like really, no matter who's in the room or who you're talking to you have to be curious get curious about what they're saying ask questions, really try to hear them the compassion is really just it's really a trying to be nice with my alliterations but it's a synonym of empathy and just trying to be empathetic and really care for others and then the courage is like sometimes you have to have the courage to stand up and advocate for the right thing and in some rooms or some stakeholders that can be uncomfortable and I think it takes courage to stand up and so I think as a practitioner it's important to really model those three behaviors but then as an employee I will it matters more to me that I work for an organization that cares and I know that some organizations say we're not family, we're not here to be family this is a business and if that's their DNA that's do you but I heard the HR he's like the chief community officer at Patagonia speak at this conference and he got a standing ovation for just talking about some of the perks and the benefits and just how they treat their employees and Patagonia has like a 4% attrition rate people join and they stay they have an on-site daycare center they know everyone's kid's names they're like hey your child's taking their first steps go outside and go watch them you know I just think it matters and at the same time you also feel that it's on their values yeah so what's the deal there yeah so in a okay so if you get a chance or anyone's listening there's a podcast called startup that Gimlet media produces and it was actually I don't know if that was the first one that they did but what's his name well linked to it down below yes yeah we'll link to it okay so basically this podcast the first series the first series of startup was a focus on Gimlet and like their whole story of like getting investment money and just trying to like trying to brand themselves trying to get going I'll speed this up the point the takeaway there was like in the tech industry and anytime you're looking at like getting investor money and it depends on the on the VC I think that's where that's one caveat or footnote some VCs really want to invest and support in folks because they believe in what you're doing and it's maybe not so much about growth but some of the takeaway from Gimlet was like you had to show growth you had to show like all right if I'm going to invest in you I want to see your numbers I want to see would like make this worth my while and then that shifts to if you go public to your shareholders and the shareholders want to see growth so they're going to stop investing and this is like you know just my very quick synthesis from like you know eight episodes and there are a lot of other takeaways if you're starting a company go check out the podcast but what I started thinking about was I was like okay well Shopify is a high like a like a we call it a hyper growth you know tech company they if you follow Motley fool they talk about how smart it is to invest in Shopify but the the constraint is we are we have pressure to grow and and that has created a culture of speed and like really hasty decision-making and I and the unfortunate thing is that oftentimes the things that get you know cut out of research and spending time doing ethnographic studies like going on site with our merchants and hearing them and I was like let's just get a GoPro and a van and like drive out you know to a bunch of merchants spend time at their office like let's spend a week at each of them you know and just like kind of immerse ourselves in their space and do like have lunch with folks and chat and like talk to people at different levels and like bring all that multimedia like really rich qualitative data back and let's tell a like a good meaningful story you know that gets us out of spreadsheets and numbers and documents like let's bring the humanity kind of you know back into like our empathy building and so that's something I'm trying to do right now but it's it's where I have to convince the leadership that this is worthwhile that how are you doing that so how are you doing that because this is like I think everybody in the service design field recognizes this this is the the the never ending battle for short term results versus like long term investment right yeah yeah yeah how are you convincing people that this is worth their while so this is actually a really good segue to the third topic if you want to bring up the third topic I don't know no we're not bringing in the third topic just yet because one maybe one final question about this one is like what are the consequences that you see that emotional intelligence soft skills aren't valued as much as you'd like them to be retention engagement productivity personal satisfaction action fulfillment we have everyone who's come every company that I've ever joined and anyone who I've worked with we make a decision to go work for someone else like I was doing my own consulting for a bit before I went to Shopify and it was like okay then Shopify put this carrot out there and I was like come help us do service design and I was like oh Shopify they got me but we we have to like a lot of companies sell and then we have to do a promise of come here and do this thing and you're the one dating right now you're the new and then you get hired you come on in you're like oh my god chaos and they're on to the next person they're dating and they're like carrot carrot carrot and I think if you want to apply at least I love I'm really interested in the employee experience and applying more and more service design and design operations, and really looking at the HR space, and it's hugely important for us to regard these end-to-end candidate and employee experiences with the same type of attention that we do our customer experiences. And so that's something I've had to really try to get people to think about it, and any company I've worked for. If you're gonna go tell someone who works on the front lines who spent the last year and a half building a relationship with a customer, and they know that customer, that customer's inviting them to all their annual meetings, they're coming on site to attend brainstorming sessions, and they're actually part of the team. And then you say, you know what, we're gonna no longer, like that we have to move that customer on to someone else or not, or they're, you know, for whatever reason, that, like, you've now just taken away like the thing that may have given that employee meaning and value in their work, and you shouldn't be shocked if like engagement is down or morale is down, like, and now the next customer that they're serving is getting a lesser experience. So I think there's a big, like we have to be, we have to draw that connection between employee experience and customer experience more. And especially when we start to focus on employee experience and start to understand how it impacts the bottom line, because that's the direction, the thing around employee experience is going in, like we're starting to understand that it's good employee experience is actually good for business, then it starts to, the puzzle starts to fit together and something like that. Yeah, yeah, I wish that we could just say, like, hey, let's just do what's right for the sake of being good people. But when you're in a business, you have to kind of, you have to look at it from both sides. You have to kind of make the business case as well as, you know, as well as the- Or you just have to skip the investors that probably saves you a lot of mental stress. Okay, you wanted to move on into the third topic because the question was, how are you spreading emotional intelligence? And, well, we have titled this topic, Giving Away. So let's start our question with this. Ooh, there's two. Just pick one, anyone, it doesn't matter. Okay. Go, switch. How far, how far? Yeah, this one, okay. Okay. So what's the question? Okay, I love this. So when is it time to give service design away? I guess. Are we giving service design away? It's so precious, we have to be so careful with it. So this, I have to give credit to Jayman for this. So the notion of, he did a talk at the Global Service Design Conference in Madrid a couple of years ago, and it was like, I think it was a breakthrough talk for him to talk about giving it away. And I think he started that conversation around, what does it mean to give it away? And at the time I didn't, I was looking at it for more of a personal angle, like, you know, this had been this baby that Jayman was sort of an expert in and he's very humble about it. Like if I ever told Jayman, he was like an expert in this, he just, you know, like even like Chris, they were all kind of the same. It was like, we're just guys like, do what we do. And you know, anyway, that's a footnote. But I didn't get it then. I didn't get the notion of giving it away and what that really meant. And like, I was just like, well, like, okay. So you mean like other design teams, you want them to do service design, but the connection I'm starting to draw now, and this is why it's very passionate is this is what I'm doing at Shopify, is the last 10 months I spent butting, like beating my head against, or beating my head against the wall where the idiom is. Like just kind of really, it was a really frustrating engagement with some of these project teams who are, their customer experience specialists, like they came from customer experience backgrounds and they manage a team of frontline staff who are like these experts in various aspects of e-commerce and like growing your e-commerce business. So they have an army of like a thousand, you know, MSMs, we call them those merchant success managers who all have different areas of expertise. And I was hired around the same time that a director of the merchant experience was sort of hired or merchant success was hired. And it immediately was this really strange, like you think of me sometimes, you include me in some things and I'm trying to like give you recommendations and how I want to do things, but there's almost like way too many cooks in the kitchen. It's kind of like, we're all coming at it from like, well, you should do this and okay, well, that's great, but the difference was that I didn't have, like they owned the frontline experience. Like she managed the frontline team, totally. I was just like an internal consultant who was like, you should look at this and think of it this way. And so it felt for the longest time that I was just sort of this like, it was a nice to have. And I was like, I can, like, there's so much more value that we can have here. And one, I was, my head count, I haven't had any head count until this upcoming quarter. So I finally get to hire a couple of people, which is great. But up until that point, I wasn't, like I was creating, you know, various diagrams to kind of help visualize this space, you know, it'd be like, okay, well, you know, and then in all the while, it was like there was no space for research. It was like, okay, well, we'll identify some subject matter experts internally that you can kind of meet with. And so I was doing interviews with our frontline staff. And instead of it being focused on the research with frontline staff about their experience as an employee, it was like we were using them as a proxy for the customer. So it was still just a hypothesis. And so I was expressing like, okay, this is not ideal. Like let's just qualify this as a hypothesis. If you want to go make some, you know, decisions based on this, just know that this is not, you have not done research, like this is not valid. Might be a great assumption, but who knows. Anyway, so I was actually seeing a career coach at the time because I was kind of feeling really frustrated and demoralized. And she said to me, she's like, you know, it sounds like you're being dragged by the horse and you need to get on the horse. And I was like, I was just kind of stuck with me. And I was like, yeah. So I remember like coming back home and I went to my manager and I was like, listen, I'm pulling out of these two projects. This is not working. Like I can do so much more than this. You're getting like, these are very expensive journey maps, you know, things are done. And I was just like, okay, what I'm going to do is we're going to scale this. I'm going to effectively give it away. I'm going to turn my role into more of a coach and a facilitator and an educator. And I'd like a headcount to hire another, like it's very senior. Like we're going to hire a staff service designer. So someone who's not going to do people management, but he's going to focus on practice as a practitioner. And we're going to create playbooks and worksheets and templates in all the different tools that we use. And we're going to go around and we're going to like be there as a consultant to kind of help level up our frontline staff, help them collect better insights, help them use the right tooling to capture those insights. So others can leverage those insights. We're going to do workshops on like, you know, with the project teams to help them go through the motions of creating a journey map, if that's what they want to do. Yeah. I've talked to Jamie about this and I sort of think we understand what this is about but what comes up in my head immediately when I hear people about giving service design away or the democratizing service design stuff like that is, you know, how do we navigate the dangers or the pitfalls of people oversimplifying it and productizing it basically. So, you know, oh great, you've made this playbook for us just so if we follow these 10 steps, we'll be okay. So why do we actually need you as a service designer? What's your take on that? Yeah, I joke today with someone, I was like, I'm kind of, you know, eventually I'll be out of a job, but I was like, you know, which I mean, I don't necessarily think that's the case. I'm sure over time maybe there's some level of broader strategy that why I can use my skills and my strengths for, you know, but I think you have to put whoever you're designing for first. Like I think I would love to see more and more organizations kind of flip the narrative and be like, okay, like let's understand what's going on for our employees. If you're in the HR space or talent space, okay, how do you focus more on that talent experience? Not what's convenient for you. And same with the customer experience, like we internally, everyone talks about how great Shopify is and I do, there's some wonderful things I don't mean to poo poo Shopify, there's some great things. And then they're doing good, the product is fantastic. The services thing is where we need some help. But if I can help train folks and empower them with the right tools and the right understanding of how to capture, like we're talking about training our frontline staff on how to moderate conversations in a way that is less biased. And, you know, I mean, I think some of it is, yeah, like you have to meet people where they're at. Like if it makes sense, you know, sometimes you may have the best of intentions, like we've had interview guides for all kinds of things and then you go off script because that's where the conversation's going and you're like, oh, this is really good. So you have to be flexible, but there is a degree of, like I think there's still a role for service design as sort of like the editor or the curator of the content and the material. Yeah, the orchestrator, what I think where this is heading into is we shouldn't be saying that we're sort of giving service design away, maybe, but we're, what we're doing is we're helping other people help us basically, like frontline staff could be a great, they're great for research and other people are great for facilitating. So there are people who can do bits and pieces of the, to make the whole process better, but sort of I think you're right when you say service designers, the service designer might be the person who ties everything together, orchestrates, stop, yeah, anyway. Yeah, yeah, cause otherwise you're at risk of having really unreliable data that you can't use that's, you know, and that's what we're faced with now is we have teams that are starting, like our kind of ad hoc doing research and they're not able, they can't discover existing websites, they don't know where it lives, like, yeah. Let's go into the final question for this episode and this final question is your opportunity to ask us a question. Is there anything on your mind that we could chew up on, think about, help you with? Yeah, so something that's personal, well, not personal, it's more just like an ambition is I'm more and more I'm feeling interested in getting into the like learning and development or learning organizational development space or org design and the employee experience. And the interesting thing is you look at a lot of roles and job descriptions and like requirements and it's like, must have a master's degree in HR or must have an HR background or HR, HR, HR. And I'd love to hear from the community, how can talent teams and organizational development teams, LNOD teams start, like, how can they bring service design into that space and like kind of broaden, you know, broaden their expectations, like broaden their mind for what a service designer could bring to that space and like, I don't know, I just think that there's still some like traditional requirements and I think there's still lots of opportunity to disrupt for lack of a better word. Like the employee experience and how, like how organizations function, like a lot of organizations need an audit, like it just gets so messy and there's so much excess and inefficiency and duplicative work and disgruntled employees. And I just, I've just seen it again and again and again, every place I've worked. And that's why I've become so passionate about working in this space because to me, it's like at the root of your ability to deliver a good customer experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And often, you know, I get the question, how can we deliver a great customer experience if everything inside of the organization sucks, right? That's, and I often have to say, you're right. So yeah, we should definitely start winning or at least do both things at the same time. Like just more, it's my call to action for anyone who's in those positions to like open your mind to service design and what a service design practitioner can bring to that space. I'm sure there are people listening watching right now who know, yeah, this is the person you should be talking to, leave a comment again. We might get somebody on the episode on the show in the future. Who knows? Yeah, for sure. Jacqueline, thanks so much for sharing what's on your mind and yeah, the things you're thinking about giving us a little bit more inspiration and diverging a little bit into what service design is. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Mark. It's been a pleasure. There's always so much more to talk about. So if anyone wants to chat, I'm happy to, you know, email or on LinkedIn or whatnot. Yeah. Cool, thanks. Yeah, thanks. So what is your biggest takeaway from this episode? Leave a comment down below. And if you know someone who might be interested in what we've just discussed, grab the link and share it with them. You're not only helping the channel to grow, but you're probably also putting a smile on somebody's face. If you're interested in the free training that I talked about on how to explain service design, check it out over here. And if this is your first time here, don't forget to subscribe to the channel. Thanks so much for watching and I look forward to seeing you in the next video.