 Fran Boate joins us, director of campaign group Positive Money. Good afternoon to you Fran. Good afternoon thanks for having me on. Just a word on some of the sort of practical nuts and bolts that feel closer to our lives than some of these big overarching political comments and statements at moments like this. The Chancellor talked about 60,000 young people being helped onto the housing ladder because of the scrapping of the stamp duty on certain properties. Well I think that the Chancellor's quite cheery mood in today's spring statement does come across as dangerous and complacent when you look at what's really going on in our economy. There have been a few small announcements but basically this speech is about the state of our economy so is that kind of high level stuff and whilst the government's celebrating you know micro improvements in GDP productivity in this budget surplus the cost of that has been eight years of austerity with where we've ended up with decimated public services through austerity cuts and privatisations and households across the country are in the red and from you know where we position positive money you know the bigger far bigger problem and far bigger drag on our economy is private debt which stands at 170% of GDP and not the public debt which the Chancellor's fixated on. By private debt you just mean our own household debt. So that is I mean 170% includes credit card, mortgage years, personal loans but also business and including financial sector debt. And the question I'm asking our listeners this afternoon about whose financial offer they are inclined to accept really as voters, they really are strikingly different at the moment aren't they what the main the two main parties are saying about what they would do with the nation's economy strikingly different. Absolutely I mean we're seeing you know there was an opportunity here for the Chancellor to make a statement about wanting to reset things about wanting a different direction but there hasn't been you know there's been a few small giveaways I mean the NHS funding is an example that's an example of how they can see we've had their worth winter and years for the NHS people have been treated in corridors but actually it doesn't go far enough they're kind of papering over the cracks in public services that have come from a from eight years of austerity whereas John McDonnell is outlining a clear shift a clear understanding of that crisis point for for many households who are struggling but also some of our public services including the NHS and I need to do a bit of a U-turn. Well does it well the Labour describing it and giving voice to people and tapping into the emotional aspect of all of that because inevitably the political and the emotional crosses over in this country when you talk about public services especially the NHS but not exclusively that's one thing coming up with a solution that gets votes is another isn't it. Absolutely I mean I think that as a director of an economic think tank you know the country has been fed up a problematic narrative around our economy over the last eight years and this continual fixation on the on the public debt by the Chancellor is kind of continuing that okay we might stop the conversation about the deficit when pretty much all economists say you shouldn't be focusing on the deficit but now we're moving that onto the national debt which again most economists would say you shouldn't be focusing on I mean the chief economist of the Bank of England Andy Heldane talks regularly about private debt is our biggest threat to financial stability and some of the projections that Philip Hammond are doing are basically saying you know we haven't ended boom and bust that will still play a factor in our in our national debt levels but the point is is as the Chancellor of the country you should be looking at financial stability and that's private debt so I think you know the issue is is that it is that they're putting across a story that isn't correct in terms of how we grow our economy how we create jobs and employment that is sustainable how we invest in the country in terms of housing infrastructure and things people need and does Labour's renationalization plan national education service plan refunded NHS plan does that all add up I mean you know I I'm not here to comment on exactly the ins and outs of their budget but the point is is that there's an understanding of where the economy is at and there's an understanding that we can't essentially continue to run our economy into the ground with more austerity and the kind of a few giveaways here and there and essentially economy that's run on you know high levels of private debt including household debt and poverty debt and real wage growth expected soon he said unexpected to continue yeah and again that's welcome but we have to remember it's on the back of the worst 10 years in terms of ways to kind of stagnation we've seen for over 100 years so I think that the point is is to actually tackle with the structural issues in our economy we do need a bigger conversation and you know today was was a bit of a disappointment and especially you know the cheery tone the light of the end of the tunnel when there won't be there will continue to be benefit freezers which will mean a loss of around 300 pounds for couples and children and there's going to be a lot for many households so it's not likely for many people other conservatives um mistaken to continue to follow that old adage it's the economy stupid when in fact we've entered a new era of politics where the emotion of one's own life matters a lot more I think basically we've we've had eight years of austerity where people's lives are getting a lot worse and now we're seeing our any you know public services breaking you know as I said people being treated in corridors we're one of the richest countries in the world why is that happening it's happening as a result of economic policy that the conservatives have been doing for the last eight years and I think there is actually disagreement within the conservative party about economic policy because they fundamentally are waking up to the situation this country is looking pretty bad in a lot of ways and especially with the added intensity of Brexit in our economy you know I don't think that there's a there's a lot of harmony you know I think there's an understanding from the conservative party that it's not looking great for a lot of people in this country okay Fran Bowett thank you director of the campaign group positive money will