 Doug Paul. Thank you. I'm Doug Paul from the Carnegie Endowment in Washington. I want to thank the organizers for arranging the conference version of the farewell symphony of Haydn, where one by one the performers leave before the piece is over. I want to first pay tribute to Governor Narayanan's insight and wisdom on the big picture of security in China. In the great tradition of Indian diplomats like Shyam Saran and Shiv Shankar Menon and now Vijay Gokhale in Beijing, that's a very important statement. But I want to ask two somewhat related questions. Throughout the discussion of North Korea, no one has mentioned containment or deterrence. Some have talked about comprehensive, verifiable, irreversible destruction of the nuclear capabilities, but that seems to be very far away. And people don't want to intrude with violence. So we may be living with containment and deterrence a long time. Can we do that for 35 years or whatever the life expectancy of Kim Jong-un is likely to be? And secondly, and a little bit more provocatively, if you go to the White House and ask people in the current administration about the erratic statements of President Trump and his kind of saber-rattling characterizations in 144 characters. They'll say, have you noticed that he has intimidated China into taking more steps to constrain the flow of assistance to North Korea? Have you noticed that since he made his threats, there have been no more ICBM tests or nuclear tests? Maybe his methods have a way of working. How do you respond to that? Very good. Yes. I'm Renaud Girard. I'm the former FES columnist of Le Figaro, which is a French daily. I would like to, I mean, the main danger in Asia is two rising powers, China and America. I would like to know, because the situation in the current peninsula will not change. I mean, China obviously doesn't want reunification of Korea. Even in South Korea, I don't think that the youth wants to reunification with North Korea, maybe the old people, but not the youth. Japan, I think, doesn't say anything about that, but I don't think that Japan wants the reunification of Korea. So I don't think that there will be any change. And you have a dictator who doesn't want to end like Gaddafi or Saddam Hussein and tries to protect himself. But these two big rising powers, the rising power which is China and the last power is America, I would like to know what is exactly the role that China assigns to the US in Pacific? What are they ready? What China is ready to accept as an American presence in the Pacific in Asia? That's the question of a man who asked questions for a living. Any other questions before I turn to the panel? So who would like to go first? Sure, you, sir. Well, the first is Doc's question. I think the containment and deterrence I would like to leave to the experts of the North, of the Korean peninsula. But what shall I say to the question when somebody asks, he has achieved a lot with all this bull. And so how do you respond to that? My response is that it's also a question mark, whether he has achieved it because of his rhetorics. For me, it's a question mark, because this king, Jong-un, is not a dummy, too. And therefore, I don't think it is now relevant to ask the question whether these rhetorics that confuses things a lot in the meantime is really critical for the containment and deterrence that you mentioned, maybe. I don't believe that, to be frank with you. Number two, but of course, Chan-sik Guo will be answering it as a Chinese scholar. But what I have picked up on the road that China would like to give to the United States is that East Asia is big enough for both of them to cooperate and to survive. They don't want some of the things, and you know which one, such as spying along their codes and et cetera. They don't like that. And they are opposed to that. And they are, of course, on the long term preparing themselves for the eventuality, according to me, that there will be a confrontation with the United States one day. But for the time being, first, they know that they are not ready completely to take over. Second, also they know that they are still a lot to be done that they can do together. That is my observation from the outside on what China thinks at this stage, for the next 10 years at least, on the role of the United States. Ching Ho, maybe you can add, because you know better. The first question is whether deterrence and containment strategy can be used. Well, I think from the American perspective, it can be used. Actually, you can erect missile defense system in the middle of the Pacific and protect yourself. But the problem is, even from the American perspective, it can pose a serious problem. First, what about the eastern part of, I mean, the Pacific part of the US cannot be protected by some kind of a missile defense arrangement. And also, what about the military alliances you have, American allies, Japan and South Korea, especially, are not going to be happy with that because they don't have a viable deterrence capability to do that, and China is not happy because China is next to South Korea. No deterrence, I mean, no missile defense arrangement can protect China. And also, there is a more serious problem that is proliferation regime is going to be down the drain. Non-proliferation regime is going to be down the drain. So it's a problem, a big challenge for all of us. Trump's policy on North Korea, or China to make China to push North Korea, is that working? To some extent, it's working. But at the same time, I think it works because China's position is moving in that direction. I remember, I think China's, the discourse of North Korea in China policy discourse has moved over time from how much we should help North Korea to whether we should help North Korea to how much we should push North Korea nowadays. So, given this contest, it's not a surprise that Xi is more responsive to Trump's pressures. And finally, reunification of, I mean, what's the role of the US in this region for China? What's the ideal role? I don't know what the ideal role is, but I think China on the rise poses a serious problem for China as well. That is very difficult to define its interests, to know what really wants. China is both a developing country and a developed country at the same time. It's a rich country and poor country at the same time. It's a strong country and weak country at the same time. It's an ordinary country and a superpower at the same time. And its interests are in conflict. So it's very difficult for China to figure out what it wants at this moment of transition. So that, to some extent, affects our view of what the proper role of the US in this part of the world. Sometimes we want the US to stay and to play a larger role, especially when it comes to make sure that Japan will not become remediatorized and also to maintain the security order in the region. But sometimes we find the US presence a nuisance. I mean, the US military tried to stop China from doing this and doing that and threatened to issue threats against China. So, I don't know, China also finds itself excluded from these military alliances. So it's like it's the other party, not one of us. So I think this creates this alienates China. So I think it will take some time for China to develop a more clear view as to what kind of role is proper for the US to play in the region. We stop here. Well, yeah. I think officers, we treated and the poor soldiers standing in the front for the barrage of difficult questions. But nevertheless, well, I liked Doug Powell for the question. Out of his, maybe, disappointment in dealing with North Korea, well, we put our hands on this issue when we were in Washington together. So, well, Doug has been very much disappointed, tired of North Korea's brinkmanship. Well, so I'm glad he raised this question and put up his wisdom to deal with North Korea by the means of containment and deterrence. Well, I spent most of my diplomatic career struggling with this issue and I got retired without seeing the result resolution of this issue. But my mind is always on this issue. Well, when I dealt with North Korea, I thought we could realize some bargaining and even we could buy a North Korean nuclear program with the cash. And, but I think I was mistaken and I don't think anymore we can deal with North Korean nuclear program with providing economic assistance or cash. Well, so if we try to resolve this issue in a short period of time, then we tend to make similar mistakes. So I think we have to have enough time to do something for this issue. So containment and the strength in the sanctions by the UN, by the international community is the right track. So they feel pains. I mean, well, the past sanctions or UN statement was peanut. I mean, it didn't work. So North Korea thought very lightly of any actions taken by the UN at that time. But now different. I mean, this issue was among the countries concerned in the region. Now it has become the global security issue. So I'm glad that we take up this issue in this World Policy Conference. So it will take longer time. And I think containment plus deterrence, military deterrence, extended deterrence provided by the US, I think it will take effect. Well, about China's role toward North Korea. Well, Professor Ja, he explained, I mean, the attitude changed, I mean, from, well, the past. I mean, China's always thought how to help North Korea overcoming these difficulties issues. But now they think whether they should do that or not. But I have some different opinion. You know, well, we, as you know, we introduced the third system to defend the US military, I mean stationed in Korea. And we thought it was necessary to defend ourselves as well as the US forces. But because of that, I mean, China punished the South Korea and they severed all, you know, normal and regular relations. For about one year, during the time, Korean business, I mean, you know, inflicted a lot of loss. I mean, even Lotte Business Group, they closed down their retail sector operating in China. And the Hyundai cars, their sales cut back half. So, I mean, the amount of Korean businesses lost amounted to maybe billions of dollars. So, well, I'm glad that recently, we, you know, China and Korea made agreement, I mean, to finish this awkward, I mean, situation. So, we will return to the normal good relations. So, well, why China punished the South Korea instead of North Korea when we took our self-defense measures? So, that is my question mark, but I'll stop here. On an entirely different topic, because we're about to run out of time. No, I just wanted to explain a point to you. Everybody talks about North Korea, but I thought the China in Asia is a bigger issue than North Korea. And I think it has implications for the world at large. I mean, I think from the rest of Asia, the view is that China is the rising power today. And China is not masking its ambitions. The other transformative is that the United States is seen as a status quo power. I don't want to use the word receding power. It has implications across the region. Take India, for instance. We have no basic conflict, but there is a, there is what I call a civilization conflict between these two nations. We have now developed much closer relations with Japan. And I think one reason is the rise of China kind of thing. It's not that we anticipate that China is going to attack anyone, but their impression, the United States, the pivot to Asia is completely gone. So all nations are adjusting their priorities. I think the rise of China is the most dominant aspect of politics, at least as far as Asia is concerned. I'm not saying that China is going out of its way to prove it, but it is a fact. And therefore, there was for a long, the United States had pressed for a quadrilateral between the United States, Japan, Australia, and India. India had been, really. India is now shifting stance to some extent. It has softened its approach towards this. It's all a part of it. So the rise of China, and I don't know when to use the word weakness of the United States, is having a very major sort of impact on the way nations are adjusting their priorities and their situations. And I think how this plays out is going to be what is the future for the next five years between the 19th and the 20th party Congress. And President Xi certainly gives an impression that he's not merely in command of China, but he wishes to be in command of a lot greater area. So I think we have to be careful. And I'm taking it not merely looking at the North Korean angle and looking at the entire point, whether it's Southeast Asia, East Asia, et cetera. And China has now moved. It's a major factor in the West Asia also. China and Russia have become major factors in the West Asian situation. So all this makes China a rising power. I don't say necessarily it's a wrong, wrong thing, but it is a factor. And it has an impact on almost all nations, certainly even a country like India. Okay, well thank you very much. I think that wraps up this panel.