 Good day discord internet. Hello discord internet twitch, all of you If you're on the internet and you're listening good day to you Yes, good day. Hello. Hello. We were supposed to have John C. Dvorak today But his internet decided not to show up. And so We had to reschedule, but we'll bring it back. Don't worry We'll be covering this in our net neutrality conversation in just a few minutes. Yes exactly All right Shall we do our show then? I think we shall. All right. Here we go in three two This tenth year of Daily Tech news show is made possible by its listeners Thanks to all of you including Kirk Stephenson this music teacher James C. Smith and Dave Packard on this episode of DTNs foldable PCs are trying to become a thing the FCC wants to swing back to that neutrality and Do we want podcasts in our music apps? Well, too bad. That's what we're doing This is the Daily Tech news for Tuesday September 26th 2023 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt and from studio secret bunker I'm Sarah Lane And on the show's producer Roger chain Now I know some of you may have heard Say at the end of yesterday's show that John C. Dvorak was gonna be with us And he was until his internet decided to leave and so we will we will try to get John Back, sorry for that John will reschedule in the meantime though. You know what did show up Sarah? What's that Tom? the quick hits See what you did there after a ban on iPhone Twelves in France due to radiation concerns Apple has offered regulators in the country an update to mitigate what was considered an Excessive specific absorption rate earlier this month Apple pledged to accommodate the testing methods used in France and the French digital Digital ministry told Reuters that it is reviewing the update The US Federal Trade Commission and 17 state's attorneys general have filed a joint lawsuit against Amazon via say alleging They violated antitrust laws which reduced competition and raised prices on the seller side Amazon is accused of punishing sellers who offered lower prices elsewhere than Amazon and Pushing sellers to Amazon's fulfillment service and to pay fees for things like advertising on the platform on the consumer side the FTC accuses Amazon of replacing search results with paid ads and Biasing search results to Amazon's own products. We have heard this refrained before in other Amazon news product had David Limp who just announced he was leaving Amazon has been named CEO of Jeff Bezos's blue origin rocket company To the moon the verges Sean Hollister reports that valve announced its shipping steam VR 2.0 in beta in its words quote We see this as the first major step towards our goal of bringing all of what's new on the steam platform into VR Valve is supposedly been working on a VR headset codenamed Deckard It's OS update day Microsoft began rolling out the fall update for the Windows 11 system That's the one that brings you co-pilot the AI powered assistant for Windows among other features Microsoft paints getting some photoshop like features with support for transparency and layers File Explorer gets its modern makeover and Windows 11 now supports past keys Apple also released its Operating system a little earlier than usual Mac OS Sonoma just a week after iOS 17 among the new features there The Mac lock screen looks like an iPhone's with a password field instead of a number pad You can put iPhone widgets on a Mac without having to install the corresponding app and a new game mode prioritizes CPU and GPU resources to optimize gaming and make wireless accessories more responsive Spotify launched a new feature called jam which lets up to 32 users create a combined playlist Jam has technology that you may have seen another other multi-person playlist like blend and duo mix But is designed for real-time collabs as the kids say like cat-eyed birthday party instead of only one Person being that DJ having access to control the music at that social gathering and everyone says actually They have pretty bad taste in music everybody or at least 32 people who are part of the jam can multi-DJ that event I could get messy I've been there Well Let's switch gears talk about foldable screens and we're not talking about mobile devices Although this will play into the conversation we're about to have the LG gram fold is a 17 inch foldable OLED laptop That can be used like a tablet not the first to the party of course There's the Lenovo X1 fold which just launched its second version 16 inch 16 inch version and two other 17 inch foldables The ASUS Zenbook 17 fold OLED and HP's 17 inch Spectre fold Now as with foldable phones the form factor will hurt your wallet. It's expensive Think pad x1 fold is two thousand four hundred ninety nine the Zenbook fold is three thousand four hundred ninety nine The Spectre fold is five thousand dollars LG's entry is right in there now It's only going to be available in South Korea So we have the price in one four point nine nine million one, but that puts it just below four thousand dollars US LG is using its own LG display foldable screen If you are keeping track of displays out there and I know one of you is Samsung and BOE also make foldable laptop and tablet displays They're used in some of these So yeah, that's where we are with the foldable displays And all of these that Tom mentioned offer the ability to dock a Bluetooth keyboard to use like a 12 to 13 inch laptop Using the keyboard separately, but the full-size screen is also an option or using a virtual keyboard when bent into the laptop shape And you can hold it like a book. So you might say alright Are we out of gimmick land? Obviously these are expensive Tom, but are there situations throughout your Regular day where you say gosh, I wish I had one just like foldable phones I want to set aside the expense for the sake of being able to have a discussion because otherwise I think we just end up with too pricey for for most people Is there a reason if let's say the cost of these comes down as they become more popular which often happens would I want a foldable screen and I Was very fascinated with foldable phones and once I got one I got the pixel fold I started to realize like okay. This is what it's good for It's really nice to be able to open it up to that bigger screen sometime but not have to have it that way I Don't know that I've ever felt the same way about a laptop though I'm not sure that I and and my Chromebook I have a Chromebook that I can fold over into a tablet I used to have the surface where you could detach the screen and use it as a tablet never do either of those things So I'm not sure I need a laptop that unfolds into a tablet at which point It seems inconvenient don't you think to just have to like oh I have to snap a Bluetooth keyboard on or or pair it up or use it separately Yeah, I mean, you know again the price is a factor here But putting that aside yet Is this a form factor that I say ah, this would this would help me in you know a B and C Scenarios and I can't really come up with any scenario Now I'm also not a multi-monitor person right now. I'm sitting, you know, I've got my big desktop monitor. It's I don't even think it's that it's 28 inches. I think plenty big, you know, I got windows I can see all sorts of you know things at once But it kind of just makes sense to me to have it all in one place. Now, that's a desktop situation I'm not traveling with the spring at all But if I were to have a laptop the you know, even when I use an iPad Quite often, which is the only tablet that I've ever used with any consistency And I haven't used an iPad regularly for four years now. I was always sort of like Yeah, you can add a Keyboard to it, but then like what's the point of it being a lap or tablet rather and I I get that There are a lot of people who go, uh, it's great It's great for that reason, you know, if you have space issues if you're doing a lot of travel You know, if you like the touchscreen capability, all of that makes a lot of sense to me, but the foldable laptop I Guess I have to go back to price at this point No, I it just isn't something that I it's not something I would say no to right if someone said hey try this out But no, it's not a form factor that I need. It's cool It's about how I feel maybe maybe on the go may and I'm not on the go very often So that's probably why I'm not thinking about it. But what what about so let's pretend we're not ourselves for a second Where we never leave our house or garage And and if you're on the go having the flexibility to make make that screen bigger or smaller Like I could see on an airplane That's usually my go-to for for travel is like, oh, could I watch a movie on this? Well a nice 17 inch screen? Yeah That's that's not bad. I thought I would like watching movies on a on a pixel fold But I don't really watch them more on the unfolded version of the pixel fold Which is seven inches than I would on a like 6.9 inch iPhone. So this this could actually change that I don't know if that justifies the price, but that's the best I got Yeah, I mean I think that you know when you when you You know, we're asking ourselves like is this just a gimmick because it's possible to make this form factor? No, I think there's a lot more to it and somebody out there is going This is a great use case that you're not thinking of and please do email us feedback at daily tech news show com with your thoughts But yeah, I I think if you are on route Regularly and you know, we were talking about that. We were having this conversation about foldable phones Not that long ago of just being able to pack it in When you're not using it in its full capacity Into a you know, a smaller pocket or you know duffel bag or whatever that sometimes Is enough to say yes this now I can do a variety of things with one product that can mimic three Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap up this this conversation with a plea for feedback I'm gonna give you two folders. There's the folder that I will not respond to which is the people going don't laptops already fold And the people going I hate the foldable idea I will read them. I will appreciate them, but I won't respond to them If you send us the hey I want the foldable screen in my laptop and here's why Definitely going to respond to that and might read those on the show So send those to us feedback at daily tech news show.com I mean, I'll laugh at the ones that say our laptops already foldable every time you send He asked I just won't respond to it. Yeah Uh, us federal communications commission chair. Jessica Rosenwurzel is announcing plans Tuesday to propose Reclassifying broadband internet providers is telecommunication providers aka title two Ah, sarah. It's like greatest hits. Remember this old, uh, tune from the 20 tones In fact, yes a news item. We covered extensively back in the day And apparently we are swinging right back Well, you know all the old fashions come back around, uh, an intro apparently one of them If you're having a hard time keeping track. Well, let me bring you back up to speed FCC chairman tom wheeler under president obama Classified internet providers as telecoms placing them under open internet guidelines Commonly called net neutrality. It's called title two. It says you're a common carrier You can't prejudice certain traffic. You're just delivering the service a version of that was created FCC chair object pi who came in under president trump Rescended that classification and said no no no internet providers are under communications rules title one like cable tv Meaning that open internet guidelines don't apply. They can manage their network However, they want in order to make sure that the packets flow freely. We don't want to restrict them from managing now everybody said When wheeler did it and when pi did it that it would ruin the internet And in neither case did it ruin the internet? But i'll tell you what isn't good is constantly switching what the telecoms and everybody else have to deal with And now rosenwurzel would like to go back to reclassify them again This follows the appointment of anna gomez to the FCC commission That makes the commission a full five member body for the first time in years Meaning you can actually have a three two vote instead of always having a two two tie And the initial vote on this proposal is now going to be scheduled for october 19th Sarah do you enjoy the ping pong of reclassification of the internet every you know five to ten years? Not at all. I mean besides it being a news item that then I talk about uh, no, I I don't think this is good for anybody I know that there are a lot of net neutrality Advocates, uh, certainly a lot of folks in our audience feel pretty strongly about that So I feel like this is a win or at least a a step in the right direction of a win But not if it's just gonna go back to something else, you know in uh, it Depending on the administration in charge going forward I think what we need to do at this point is say all right. Let's let's all just Let's classify and and and end it Yeah, we need a new title that that's my position and I know That making a new law is almost impossible in this day and age Unless it has to do with very, you know limited care categories that everybody agrees on and this is such a political football You're not going to get people to agree But the problem is that First of all the internet is neither of these things. That's why we actually don't seem much Real big effect when they reclassify is that the internet just kind of is like well We're not communications or telecommunications either one were the internet Uh, and so maybe you get a little attitude to push a little one way or another But to properly manage the internet you just keep managing it as the internet if you want to properly regulate it I think you have to create internet regulation The telecommunications regulation was created in the 30s when tele telephony was new and the communications regulation was created in the 70s When cable television was new and I think the 90s is when it really got solidified so you could think about it that way too But we're now in the age of the internet there needs to be a classification that says the internet works like this Here are the rules to say like hey, you can't do this. You can't do that Net neutrality for whatever it means could be part of that Uh, but I think it really does need to just say here's here's the guidelines in which you operate an internet service provider And they're essentially the way isps have been operating and just saying here are the boundaries It shouldn't even be that controversial in on in my opinion anyway I know that uh telcos have their own thoughts about uh this because it can benefit companies But putting all of this aside because I know you've thought about this a lot tom who What is the argument for a non net neutrality future? Uh for uh broadband internet that makes sense Yeah, so usually the argument you get uh from from the isps is that if if net neutrality rules go in place They won't be able to properly manage their networks because there are times when you need to shape traffic in order to keep the internet flowing Turns out when wheelers rules were in place Nobody got sued for proper management of traffic And the argument for net neutrality is if you don't have rules in place for net neutrality The isps will block traffic uh in order to prioritize paid traffic And that means that that certain voices will be disadvantaged Turns out we haven't seen that either because it really doesn't make as much business sense as people fear so When I talk to network people people who work on actual networks at isps and I I I know several of them They all say look we we do need some rules of the road to make sure that everybody's cooperating with each other Maybe some rules to make peering clear and easy and so we don't have to fight each other of it Maybe some pull access rules so everybody can can run networks easier But we really don't fit in either of these categories when you talk to the lobbyists when you talk to the business people At networks, that's when they start saying well We we need these easier rules in order to do traffic shaping and stuff like that The the folks who operate the networks don't say that as much in my experience All right folks, I know a lot of you are android users and we have a show for you Ron Richards and quentley dowell bring you android faithful a podcast devoted exclusively To android news and information you can catch it Tuesdays at 8 p.m. Eastern 5 p.m. Pacific Live right there on the internet Now if net neutrality or not the packets fly to you go to www.androidfaithful.com Google has a reputation for killing its own products. Uh, it's kind of a meme at this point today Certainly does not provide evidence Against that so let's run down. What has happened youtube premium light will go away as of october 25th This was the less expensive version of youtube premium that just removed ads a longer lived offering Basic html gmail will go away in january. So they're giving us a heads up on this This version has been around for more than 10 years Even though gmail back in the day was always like well, you can use it But don't you want the nicer newer one? I don't know some of you might have said no. I like basic Uh, so you got till jan and google podcasts will shut down later in 2024 We don't know exactly when but sometime next year the company is once again moving podcast listeners Along to a new platform and this time it's youtube music Yeah google added podcast support to youtube music app in the u.s. Anyway back in april Uh, they say a migration tool is in the works so that you'll be able to bring all your google podcast shows over to youtube music That a migration tool for google music to bring it over to youtube music that worked fairly well So hopefully this one will too and it will include rss feeds for shows not currently in the youtube music catalog So it'll be open for you to add rss feeds. It won't have to be indexed in youtube for it to work You'll also be able to export an op ml of your podcast feeds from google podcasts If you don't want to go to youtube music and you can take that op ml into any other podcast app that allows you to import Tech crunch points out this leaves apple as the only major platform that has not merged music and podcasts into one app Though apple did announce tuesday that apple music radio shows are now going to be available in the apple podcast app That is different than music and podcasts all together. Those are essentially shows. They could be considered podcasts sarah Are these platforms worth the effort for for podcasters or listeners either one I mean listen so every time I start a new podcast and Daily tech news show aside. This is something that I do here and there In various project, uh, you know capacities and I always kind of say to everybody, okay Here are you know the kind of obvious stuff where the feeds should go Here's where you're probably gonna get your most, uh, you know the majority of your audience But here are some other places that people enjoy podcasts, you know, let's try to service as many people as possible Google podcast has consistently because I get reports monthly reports from google consistently just the lowest numbers You know, so I kind of go. Okay. Well It I don't think it's a service that doesn't work well But I I've never thought that in fact. I think it makes a lot of sense But for whatever reason people just don't think about that as you know a place to get podcasts Maybe some of you say that's the only way that I get podcasts and you know, that's great There just clearly aren't enough of you to the point that the company says let's roll it into music Which brings me to my gripe podcast and music two different things if you want to Reinvent an app call it audio then let's talk But podcasts and music are two different things. Yes You can have a podcast about music. So we're getting into a little venn diagram thing here But they're two different things. It's like I mean, I've always thought that about itunes itunes being about anything besides music has never You know, it never sat well with me. So I I sound a little bit more fired up about this that I really have. I mean do what you want to do universe But it bothers me it does I do I don't think that they're the same and I so I agree with apple in that sense You know every so so often I'll I don't know like accidentally hit the music icon rather than the podcast icon and I immediately I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm in the wrong place. Yeah. Yeah. I meant to do something different I don't know. They're just different things to me Yeah, jpeg 84 points out apple used to have podcasts in itunes to your point about itunes being Oh, it was it made me insane crazy stuff in it But even apple when they changed away from itunes decided to keep podcasts separated from from music Maybe they'll eventually Start doing it the same way as everybody else, but I find it. It's fine I I don't I don't have a problem with it, but I find it confusing I find it harder to keep track of things when the podcasts and the music are combined together I get that in theory You're wanting to listen to something and you listen to podcasts and music in similar situations while you're jogging while you're in the car While you're doing yard work, you know, you got headphones in you're listening to one or the other And that's why you see amazon even putting audiobooks in there along in the same line because that also is something that you You listen to in the same kinds of situations Uh, I just wish That whatever they do on the platform side We would just all have one place to submit rss feeds And it would just be it's it's rss. It's meant for that. It's meant to be universal, right? Why do we have to submit to every okay now? I gotta submit to the youtube music gotta make sure that youtube music has mine When the show is already on youtube and was already on google podcasts and is in spotify and is an i heart radio I just I just think it's annoying that every platform wants to reinvent the wheel or gate keep what's in their system When there is a perfectly reasonable and systematic way and in fact, it's too bad that john Had technical problems today because I know he and adam are big supporters of an open project to index podcast that is right there for everybody to use Yeah, I think This largely You know, google has a marketing problem. Uh, google also sunsets Variety of properties With some regularity that people really like So, you know, you that's a twofer here Um, but just in the greater sense of if let's say spotify. I'm not a spotify user I use apple music, but let's you know call them for the most part pretty similar products Putting podcasts and music together under spotify not the end of the world Just spotify want to break out into two different, you know, platforms. No, of course not but I think you can You can you know, it's it's largely optics here Of you want to listen to something? Well, we've got everything you might need. You want people talking You want, you know Spoken word poetry. You want music Taylor Swift. We've got it all that would be fine. That wouldn't upset me I just don't like when things are put into a music category when they're not music I just thought of something uh youtube has done something I think it's pretty smart with youtube tv and youtube music, which is they're both available in youtube There's three different apps, right? There's youtube music for music There's youtube tv for live tv and then there's youtube for traditional youtube stuff But you can watch youtube tv stuff in youtube you can get youtube music in youtube In fact, when you watched music videos in youtube the stats are merged with your youtube music stuff Why not do that with podcasts have youtube podcast an app for people like us who just want to have podcasts But if you want it, you could still add your podcast in youtube music, you know Like why squish it over there? Why not do what you've already done? And and and make it make it easy so that you can do whatever you want I mean, I'm a youtube tv user. I'm well price hikes aside over the years I'm very very happy with the service I have never once used it inside of youtube Right, and you don't need and and youtube's fine with that. They're like that's only for somebody who really wants Well, yeah, because they're like, you know, yeah, we'll give you a choice do what you want exactly as long as you stay with us somewhere All right, we need to we need to chase chase this heavy topic with some fun. What do we got? Yeah I'd say top of teo, but um if nobody has any hot sauce around Let's go with matel matel Had a quite a year at the box office At least so far now. Yeah now matel is on board It's it's board game rather and it is on board to change the game called Pictionary, Pictionary is a new version called Pictionary versus AI So AI enhanced refresh If you haven't played Pictionary, you know, I you know, tom and I are playing I'm trying to draw something tom's trying to guess what I'm drawing type thing That's that's the uh, the basis of the game a lot of the new Yeah, the new spin is that humans are trying to now see if the AI is smart enough instead of other humans To understand what the humans are drawing and the other humans who might be playing the game Are also trying to predict if That AI will indeed understand the drawing so a little bit of a departure from from regular old Pictionary Uh, the drawing by each participant sent to a smartphone analyzed by matel's proprietary AI Which then tries to guess what you drew whoever else is playing along tries to guess whether or not the AI I can in fact guess what you drew. Maybe you're really good at drawing. Maybe you're not but hey, we're talking about AI, right? So the the the uh, the stakes are a little different Pictionary versus AI releases on october 2nd for $25 and I am in line. That sounds fun to me Yeah, I I actually really like this idea First of all, it took me a minute to be like, well, why wouldn't you just draw really bad? So the AI can't recognize and then I realized the rule was no, you want the AI to guess your drawing It's other people are trying to figure out whether it will or not Uh, where where its quality gets in uh, and for those I know who have questions This is a model created for matel. So it is proprietary to matel. Uh, like sarah said, but it's using google's technology It was trained on actual drawings And when you scan your drawing it is not stored at matel. So you're you're not you're not training it any further You're just playing the game Using something specifically created to recognize fictionary drawings Uh, and and it doesn't have to be the best because that's kind of the fun of like, well, what is it good at and what isn't it? Oh, totally I was trying to think of what it what does this remind me of before The show started I was trying to think of what's that game where you you say something that isn't true And then everyone tries to guess of like, oh, is it really not true? Baldur dash also a fun game a good party game This is not that but there's a little of the person drawing Wants the AI to get it or intentionally doesn't you know for whatever reason and hilarity ensues Hopefully yeah in the video There is one of broccoli That really looks like a tree and the I guess tree and I was like, you know what I probably would have to if I was You know sometimes the robots are you know, it looked like a tree. I think like them. What are you gonna do? Yeah Well, folks you may recall from yesterday's show that I mentioned it's free preview week If you're not a patron, we're letting you get all the fun stuff that the patrons get In your regular feed So you are getting the full extended show just so you can see what it's like stick around for good day internet We're gonna discuss how long should we expect companies to support software updates on phones? We always want it to be longer, but is it forever stick around and find out maybe it is I mean my answer is forever, but reality. Yeah, we'll talk about it in a minute Just a reminder though. You can catch our show. We do the show live Monday through Friday at 4 p.m. Eastern 200 utc You can find out more at daily tech news show comm slash live and we'll be back doing it again tomorrow with scott johnson joining us Talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network Get more at frog pants dot com Diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this program I enjoyed this program. Well, I don't know about you. Yeah, you did You imagine if I was like three out of ten No, I thought it was great even more like five like it was all right You know, yeah, like if I was like, you know out of ten, what would you give this? You know if I was proud of anything and someone said, uh, it's called a five I'd be like, oh dear. All right. I mean not the not the best not the worst 50 percent not good But then, you know 75 percent 7.5 would be a c I don't like that either It's our that seems wrong. That's seven 75 percent is a c. I know It's been a while since I mean gosh when I was in school if I got a c I was not gonna have a good day C's were C's were a bad situation Mm-hmm. They were rough seas. They were they were rough seas. I mean Not the I actually didn't didn't I didn't take a b very well Well, no anything that listen a plus is a plus a a minus It's all the same I'm talking about my own household. Yeah, then you get into b's and you go like, um, so what was the problem? My parents are real nice about it, but it was the same way. My parents were like, what happened? Yeah, all right. You gotta be if you got a c it was like, okay We need to do something about this, right? Yeah, it's like you're passing and we want you to be exemplary Um, I don't actually think I ever got a c until I got into college and then I didn't care. Oh my god We didn't have diploma. We didn't have d's In your high elementary school. We had an junior high in high school, but we didn't have them in elementary Oh, yeah elementary. I don't remember even getting we had it When I was like first second and I think third we had eyes Because they didn't want to give kids f's. That was that was demoralizing. What's the eye? Insufficient insufficient and complete. I can't remember Yeah, you didn't want to get an eye and then they went back to f when I was like, I don't know fourth fifth grade interesting Enough parents were like, no We need that red f I think I think it was like it was the 70s and everybody was all like touchy feely Right. It's like, oh, we don't want to give kids an f then the 80s came out and everybody got a hard nose again They're like, yeah toughen up kids You could take an f. It's fine. I actually never understood the reason why there was a d Versus because once my belief was once below a c you're like It was inadequate. You had you know, like why make a distinction between What does d stand for now that I'm thinking of? D was below average No, but what is the average was like you didn't fail, but you you were below average, but it's like a b c d What does d mean? Oh, I think it was just a b c d like in order, right? They don't stand for anything Yeah, well fail should be e because fees fail should be e. They were like, yeah, but it's fail. Let's call it f Yeah, yeah, yeah, I never got an e grade. What was that? Yeah, excellent. I would say give me an e should be um, there were a couple um I I I know colleges are They vary a lot um in how they grade or don't grade stuff But there were a couple these were always electives that I had to take in college, you know that I didn't care about that much And and roger knows this because we went to the same college uh, you could You couldn't do it like last day of class in a semester, but up until like I think it was like the first like 30 percent or maybe even the middle of a class you could kind of go like, you know what this isn't going to go well So instead of getting a grade, I'm going to go with pass fail So passing is like you you passed um, and you got a Fewer I don't know like merits as a result, but you at least didn't get a bad grade Past you got pass fail. You could get the credits But you didn't it didn't help or hurt your gpa It didn't go yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, that's exactly what it was It was basically it just you floated through the class your gpa Didn't get bumped up by the pass But it also didn't get and I think at University of Illinois There was a limit on how many classes you could do pass fail. Yeah, you couldn't just do that for everything I think I I don't remember what class I did that with and I mean I I mean I Laid awake at night, you know Try to Is it gonna make me seem like I didn't try, you know, like this class is not working for me I don't remember what class it was. It may have been one of the like the legal media classes that sometimes were just Not fun. What was that law and media? There's a law and media. Yeah Yeah, I was in that one building where nothing I'm trying to think if I ever did pass fail I might have done a kinesiology class pass fail Hmm because I wanted the credits But I didn't want to you know, I didn't want to like get a b in kinesiology coaching of softball strategies and bring down my gpa so I just I I ended up just dropping classes because what's the point if I'm lucky I would do that also. Yeah I was like, I hate this. I should have done that with this only this only happened I I think it only happened once maybe twice and it it was a class I had to take That I didn't want I didn't want to be there in the first place, but it was part of my major and I had to do it And I think the law class was one of um Uh law classes. I actually like I would probably like very much now, but you know, I was 19 years old Um Something else there was something else I didn't like I don't know Everything else in my major was actually pretty fun College generally is a better experience than high school. I was just uh I was a b student in high school And uh, I was definitely an a student college because I could pick the classes I wanted And I could like all out this teacher and I wanted this time of day. You felt yeah It felt like less of just kind of going through the motions. I have to take I have to take Yeah, I have to take this you know in I And I I mean this is not like me bragging Or I I was just an a student until college Not because things weren't difficult or I didn't have to try. Um, I just Yeah, I mattered more to me and then once I got to college. I was like, but I get a degree No matter what I really grew up And no one cares what I graduate like like what gpa I had except like in Very specific, you know workplace Uh Situations that I might be in in the future. So I just kind of was like, I'll just graduate I had a strong aversion to studying in high school Like I would study for like the test like the day of like, you know, the Like the two break periods you have before like third period That'd be like cramming through the book. Well, I mean I I sometimes joke about this to people about what we all do for a living Is that I say you wake up in the morning and you're cramming for a test That's what you're doing, you know, like, I mean, of course there's, you know Everything that we talked about on today's show there's context. There are, you know, past stories that, you know Play into how we feel about the story going forward all of that But you wake up and you cram You know, I can't just like not cram or else I'll sit here and have no idea what I'm talking about and You know, it'll be bad and that you have to read the story and not only do you have to read the story You have to like understand it, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's the cramming part You want to read that out loud like how however it is that you get to that place you do that Like with the with the foldable laptops I had to go open the Lenovo the hp specter and the asus reviews from the verge to Like remind myself what were those again because I want to have that in my mind Or else I'm gonna say something that's not right about them Exactly exactly and you know, you could say well You you could approach the show completely differently and every story you knew about a week ago type thing It's like well, sure we could totally do that But but this is a it's a live show and it's a test cramming thing and I'm with you Roger I did a lot of last-minute cramming because I'm like this is just it's best if it's all in my head right at The last moment because then I'll know it all for the test Hey, Roger, uh, Joe wants the title and if you could give it to him in the chat Um, and we should talk about the the phones too. Um, tell tell us about the the google pixel announcement I will google's pixel phone announcement is expected to happen at an event on october 4th I mean, it's pretty much a sure thing with all the leaks part of the way that we know this is Because of the leaks ahead of the announcement One of those leaks is that the pixel phones will get seven years of updates Which is longer even than apple supports its phones and puts the pixel right there with fair phone at the top of the software update charts so Let's go around the horn here and talk about How many years of updates do we need is seven years sufficient? Should it be more? Is that excessive? Do we need 10 years? Do we need five? I don't know tom. What do you think? Well, okay as a consumer I want it to be as long as possible because I want the luxury to decide when I get rid of my phone not feel like I have to Get rid of my phone Because it's out of support right especially when security updates So up to up till now google was three years of feature updates five years of security updates Apple has been the best at this at pretty much keeping it six to seven years So seven years guaranteed is is longer than apple usually goes But apple doesn't give you a guarantee. It just has a a practice that it usually follows. Yeah apple has some flexibility to do this that google now has because of google doing the socs and all of that but uh If if your apple you can just continue to support it until the software Has outstripped the capabilities of the hardware you can say like you know what we just can't put features on this phone It's too old and I feel like that's reasonable because Yes, some people do keep their phone for 10 years But most people don't most people get to a point where they realize like this is just slow I want I want a more capable phone and I feel like Somewhere past five, but not too far past five Is is the reasonable? The reasonable support window when you consider that if all Phone makers were required by law to support phones for 10 to 15 years It would raise the prices of phones for everybody Because they'd have to be paying developers to develop for phones that very few people had it would be costly So there has to be a point that's reasonably when you go like yeah It's just not worth it for them to keep developing for this phone anymore. Just like it's you know It's your your washer and dryer from the 50s. You're not going to get a warranty on it You know from from the place you bought it. It's too old There's got to be a limit night I feel like that limit can keep getting longer as As hardware becomes more commoditized and as software, you know stops stops Leaps and bounds as this this product category becomes more mature But yeah, I feel like right now it's probably five to seven. I think seven's pretty pretty generous I think I do too. I I am I'm trying to think uh, I mean we're talking about like a washer and dryer It's like I mean these people wash and dry for 30 years, but But yeah, as far as a mobile device is concerned And I'm trying to think of the longest that I went You know, and we you know, we work in tech and we we cover this stuff So I'm not I don't even really consider myself a normal person When it comes to upgrading tech Because sometimes I do it for the purposes of work, but um You know, I've got an iphone 13 pro max Um, I I mentioned last week. I think I'm not upgrading to the 15 because there's nothing wrong with my 13 I got my 13 right before the 14 was announced And I knew I knew what I was doing and I was like, you know, I just need a new phone And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get all messed up in the you know the the rat race I need the phone that I need and I like it and if I have this phone for another five years Because you know, it's two years old at this point I'm happy If it yeah, if if in five years from now There's some big reason that uh, it will no longer work The way everyone else's phone works. I don't think I'd be mad about it I would think that that's a pretty long time from now I mean, I'm gonna drop it in a toilet way before then anyway Because that's just how life works. So yeah, that would just be my own fault Roger what about you? I think the minimum should be five and I do like seven especially if you purchase a flagship or near flagship model where They're pretty they're they're they're pretty speedy, you know hardware to begin with so You should at least expect to use it for six years Even if you don't use it directly you give it to like a family member Yeah, I should have a life of six years whether it's you or or someone else on the used market The only time I the only time I I actually had to update was a if apps just feel Felt slow on it or b for example when I moved away from the nexus Up to a samsung Is because I wanted the the on the on device encryption where it encrypts all the data But it was so slow on the nexus three Like it just took forever to do and so it's like well I better upgrade because this is this is a security feature that isn't working Well enough uh to to seriously use the phone because I would I was seriously considering turning it off Just to to get things working normally and you know when you're you're you're weighing the options between security and convenience Because your device is too slow. That's usually a telltale sign. You need to upgrade I think too you have to remember with phones that we are still In smartphones anyway in the in the early days and product cycles are much different in early days than they are later You could even go back to you know to the late 1800s And electricity You know there were there were varying ways of delivering electricity and and so You might get a device that worked well with one way and then it turns out they would change electricity to a different way Well, we don't think about that anymore. We don't think about like well Should I get the ac or the dc or you know Is my home electricity going to be compatible? Because we quickly got out of that in the 1800s and haven't thought about it since I feel like with phone service We're kind of there with 2g 3g 4g 5g Where we're still evolving at some point internet connectivity over the wireless will just Be stable it'll just be standard. I don't know when that'll happen But at some point that'll happen And and you won't have to keep upgrading a phone to use the the current standard We won't have controversies when you know the uk announces an end date for 3g support Because some people are still using it and I think that's why when nick with the c says I replace my desktop every 8 to 10 years Why should I allow a phone to be different? It's not that you allow A phone to be different. It's it's that It is different and it isn't as mature as the laptop yet You can replace a laptop every 8 to 10 years now because it's not advancing as fast As phones are phones have a lot of things that we're still working through and coming up with advancements on I mean we're doing you know look look at our foldable conversation Two years ago people would have been like What are you guys talking about? You know things things they happen And and they've hit a plateau in terms of the vast majority of Apps you would need to have working like a web browser some office apps or whatever you can get by With a mid-range or low power device And use that for a long time because if all you're doing is sending email if all you're doing is checking up on You know that there's a plateau of use Where you know sure you could get something faster, but that's if hey I'm a content creator or I'm a big gamer or I'm doing something very specialized. Yeah, you're going to need more More, you know horsepower, but you know, I I'm actually fine with my phone as long as they keep the updates Software updates and security updates on it. I'm you know, I'll keep it as long as it keeps working Well, but at some point you're going to hit another feature like you did with encryption Right where you're like, oh, this phone doesn't support that feature and that that's going to the time between that Is going to get longer as phone technology matures But that kind of stuff still is going to happen. I used to replace my computer every like 18 months back in the 90s You know Because there would always be like, oh wow, I'm on a 486 dx and and they're already selling pentium 120s Like I I'm falling behind. This is so slow. It can't run all the software that the newest software out there I need to I need to upgrade and then I remember when that slowly became two years And then it became three years and then then it became I don't really think about it I just I replace a laptop When it's, you know, no longer working well anymore like you're talking about wanting to do with your phone uh And that that of times has is stretching out as that product category matures and I feel like We should continue to put pressure on manufacturers to extend the support But I don't I don't know if it's reasonable to expect, you know, 20 years support from a telephone or a smartphone yet Maybe from a telephone. Yeah from a rotary phone. Absolutely, but not from a At a 20 year old Dream I had last Those things were built on last Speaking of rotary phones Never To my knowledge at least as long as I was ever using a phone. We never had one of the Circle phones, you know, where you do the the rotary the rotary Well, but rotary phones They you still call it a rotary phone, don't you when it has the one two three four five six seven eight nine in a block No, that's push button. Let's touch down touch. Oh Okay. All right. So I never actually had a rotary phone that I can think of but I always thought like They were cooler when I was actually hold on. Hold on. I there is an exception If you there were some phones that had the one two three four five buttons, but when you pushed them they went So they were sending the rotary signal So if you had one of those you technically had a rotary If you could do the phone menu with your phone that like, you know press one from this press two Right, right, right. Oh That was a limitation. I just always thought those were because it was Thank you, fred whole styling is what that was called whole styling. Yeah Um, I don't know. I just always think of you know, we always had a phone hanging on the wall in the kitchen I don't know why but it was just a wall 20 foot cord And then there was a phone in my parents bedroom that was you know tabletop Um, but neither of them were the actual rotary phone. And so when I would but there are a lot of people You know, you go over to someone else's house and you're like, wow, it's like way harder The cooler phone somehow you you never got your own phone like pre cell phone. You never had your own phone I had my own phone before cell phones. Yeah, I did I mean when I lived alone, I did not when I lived with my parents I never did I mean like you were my parents got me my own phone line. I think after Too many late night goals from Sarah's friends No chance like we've had it We've had it with you get your own phone The only big advance in our household when I was growing up is we got a cordless phone So you could take it into your room But that was that was as good as we ever got we only ever had one line Most of my childhood it was mounted to the wall. It was a rotary phone Beige rotary phone mounted to the world Always the beige phone and the kitchen Uh-huh, and that was it. That was the only line we had and then well, and you had the cord, you know, I mean you could you could We had to go out of the kitchen and around the corner. Yeah type thing, but uh, I think we went from That to a pulse phone once once AT&T got broken up That sat on the on the little You know a little we had a little phone stand Thing there and then we went from that to cordless and the cordless was like, you know You could walk into the backyard and talk It's so weird that I didn't get a cordless phone until after I got a cell phone Like up until that day on my phone. Oh my gosh. I didn't get a cell phone until I started working at zd tv in 1999 I only had one because which is around when I got it Yeah, yeah, I had one in college, but My dad was you know, I had left home and he was always worried something terribly He was she just needs to be able to get a hold of me. Yeah if she's in an emergency So that was yeah, that was my first motorola Um way back in the day, but uh, yeah, I remember Back in the the you know, uh cordless phone days, you know where some people had them There's a lot of people didn't I remember Like I don't know these are also the days where you have to sit around and wait for someone to call you at home You know if you're expecting to hear I hated that. Didn't you hate that? Yeah, and like like I remember like putting the phone on the counter and I'm like I have to take a shower But like okay, you know and the phone rings, you know, I'm like hi I'm taking a shower, but it like still works and they're like, can you just call me back like? Well, it's not that important, but I'm like, but it works All the little scenarios how'd you understand of all the things free cell phone that was annoying was waiting by the phone like Oh, he's gonna call me back Like what's up? It's interesting waiting waiting by the phone still means something, but it means something Right because waiting by the phone just means like yeah, I have no option I'm waiting for you to call so I have to be by the phone because the phone doesn't move Now it means I am so obsessed I am mentally I am holding my cell phone in my hand waiting for you to call Wherever I am. Oh gosh. I know and I mean It's so funny. It's like I think and we and nobody complained about it But it's like we didn't know what to complain about Because the technology wasn't there. There was no way for me to How would my mom tell me that someone called me before I got back home? Yeah, how would she she couldn't? Carry your pigeon or the movie theater where you were and relay a message to you or something Yeah, I mean, you know only if in the most dire of emergencies, but something like that happened But yeah Yeah, I think I think that happened to me Maybe once where they my parents knew I was at a restaurant in greenville I don't know what they needed to tell me. It wasn't that much of an emergency Like I don't remember anything traumatic But somebody was like came over and was like hey your mom just called and said whatever it was And I was like, oh, okay. Thanks But yeah, that was the closest you ever get I remember I had this teacher. This is an uh, probably want me to pick up something at the store on the way home Yeah, just let's get a hold of him before he threads home. Yeah, I remember uh in junior high, uh, you know like seventh eighth grade. Um, I I was Sort of a difficult person in general, uh at that age, but I also had a teacher that I didn't get along with and I remember like there was a pay phone At the school like if you needed to call your parents or I mean unless it was again An emergency where you would go to the principal's office use the pay phone one pay phone And sometimes there was a line like, you know, and you need a quarter and the whole thing And I think I always had like a couple quarters. You know, my parents would say if you really need to get a hold of us, you know Use a pay phone. I remember like I remember always putting a quarter and calling my mom and being like mr. So-and-so You know and she's like at work Like, why are you okay? Yeah, fine. Okay. Bye See you later Take the bus home Very different very different than how life is today I even when I was doing search and rescue training in 2007 They still recommended putting a quarter in your emergency backpack So that if you needed to make a phone call You know in case your cell phone was out of range You could find a pay phone if only the pay phones were things to be found these days I do see them every once in a while and it's like, oh my god I see the I want to use it. I don't I see the little things where they were mounted but I don't actually see the phones I see them often and they're obviously like so Dilapidated that there's no way that google google has a google map of pay phones and it's very sparse I remember using them and I used to wipe them off before I used them Where did I see a pay phone recently where I was like gosh that pay phones in good shape? I bet it even works Oh, okay. So wiki how it says Look at government locations post offices public libraries hospitals high schools and workforce training centers Maybe it's the hospital. Maybe that's where I've seen a pay phone recently although I mean There's a person working at around every corner that could just You could use their phone. I don't know by 2016 the number of pay phones in california had dropped from 100 000 to 27 Still 27 that's still a lot. Yeah, that was seven years ago. So I imagine Imagine it's dropped even farther. I think I think probably so And I don't even know what I would You know, it's I it is few and far between there are certain numbers. I have committed to memory certain family members but I mean any of my friends I can't I mean Under under pressure would not be able to come up with I might know the area code Well, I know the area code for most people But even then no, I don't know anyone's number anymore payphone-project.com keeps track of pay phones across the united states Wow, there's a lot at like companies. There's one at western nails one at hamburger hamlet hamburger hamlet Hamburger hamlet. Why is that something familiar to me? Uh, because it's a delicious. I've been there in the store. I don't know Oh, there's one in Sherman oaks hamburger hamlet. Oh, I've driven by it. That's why I I just like the I like the name Yeah, I looked at a house there in hamburger hamlet In inside the hamlet. Yeah, I wanted to live in the hamlet, but you know what the taxes were a little little high property taxes in hamlet um, we're gonna wrap it up now Again, uh, thanks to everybody who supports the show on patreon. Welcome free previewers. I hope you're enjoying the free preview uh, I want to thank uh, folks interacting faking nose grob like in uh, the the uh, Experiment week post go go in deep there Uh grover team old dune putting a lot of likes on stuff. Good to see you enjoying stuff over there grover Uh, thank you to everybody who supports the show directly at patreon.com dtns Also, thanks to everyone who supports the show on twitch making our video possible We got bits from dan 3413 wild west dan's back for the seventh month. Good to see you wild west dan windmill steve for the 41st month c spawn with 200 bits zoe with bits brian with bits chaz baston for the 41st month Rabbit 41 with some bits. Good to see Everybody Tomorrow is the meta connect conference where we're gonna get some chatbots Yeah, we're gonna get those personas that they were talking about until then. I hope there's just like a really rude one There is there's there's one apparently based on bender from futurama. Oh, I see. Yeah until tomorrow everyone Good have a shiny metal day do We're doing jerk I don't care