 The Nigerian Senate has appealed to the government of the United Kingdom to pardon its member, Ike Kweramadu, who was found guilty of organ trafficking in that country. This was a sequel to a motion moved by Chukuka Utazi of the PDP Inugu North during the plenary on Wednesday. The appeal comes as a UK court and is set to pronounce sentence on Mr. Kweramadu, his wife Beatrice, and Nigerian Dr. Albina Betah on the 5th of May 2023. He was found guilty of conspiracy of organ trafficking in March by the Westminster Magistrate Court and offends that contravins the Modern Slavery Act. Mr. Kweramadu, a former Deputy Senate President, represents Inugu West's Senatorial District in the current Senate. He was arrested in June last year for bringing a young Nigerian to the United Kingdom with a view to harvesting his organ to treat his daughter Sonia, who was suffering from a kidney disease, and needed a transplant. Joining us live to discuss this is Elvis Asya and Obina Chiku, who are both legal practitioners. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you for having me. All right. While we wait for Boris Obina, Elvis, is it too late for this call to be made by the National Assembly? There was ample time for these conversations to be had. Why do you think this is coming at this time? It is absolutely too late, and quite frankly, it's funny to hear this from the Senate, from the House of Representatives, I've seen calls from the Yakoas Parliament, even the former President has written a letter. These are very, with your respect, to the personalities of the people involved. This is really very funny. If you really wanted to help, you could have managed, you should have explored the plenary channels, which should have been authorized and presented by the President. Don't forget that during the proceedings for his bail, Nigeria made the representation to the effect that it shouldn't be granted bail. So this is somebody, this is Nigeria's citizen, who has clearly been abandoned by the country. And so this call by the Senate, it's really just at best some form of pressure group kind of thing. Why do you think, I mean, it's great that you made that point. Why do you think that Nigeria and the government, the Senate, or all of those, I mean, even the diplomatic call, is making this U-turn? Because the big question is, Ikeakura Madu was also fielding as a governorship candidate in his state, in Nogustate. Just before they think of the elections, there was some leeway for that to happen. But like you rightly stated, they said, you know, justice should take its course. What changed? What do you think changed right now? Because I guess that's the question that everybody's asking, including former President Ulusya Gawabassanger, adding his voice to this. What could have prompted this? I don't think anything has changed. I think the Senate, the former President and others who are making this call now are pretty much doing it because they have seen that the appropriate authority under the law that could have assisted Ikeakura Madu in terms of foreign relations has decided not to do so. These are practically an attempt to make a call on behalf of a friend or former colleague. So it's not like they are actually changing their position. It's clear that the government does not really want to get involved in assisting Ikeakura Madu, or perhaps, you know, the country is happy with what is facing right now. Of course, this is not to downplay the issues involved, this is not to downplay the crime. But we have seen citizens of other countries who have been involved in even more grineous crimes. And their countries that have fought for them, they've tried to secure their release. Urabu had cases in Nigeria where someone, for example, an instance of someone who was arrested in Saudi Arabia for drug trafficking, which ordinarily were trapped, very heavy punishment. But Nigeria, you know, put this out in order and made attempts and eventually the lady was free. I think it was Zinab Ali or something. So this was, this is a clear case of government, you know, deciding not to assist its citizen who is in, you know, a big old geopolitical country. And don't also forget that, you know, during the course of Kodamadu's travels, the country actually moved against him, they moved against his property, the SEC secured orders to freeze, to forfeit over 40 of his properties in Nigeria. Like I said earlier, you know, the government made representations to the effect that it should not be granted there. So this is really practically, you know, a very neat call. And like I said, it's not authorized even by the presidency, it's just the Senate and some few others who are trying to make a call on this behalf. Varsha Abhinna, thank you very much for joining us. Let me come to you. But they moved by the EFCC to try to get the former Senate president's, his property and all the other moves that the government has made. If he were a member of the sitting or the ruling party, do you think we would have seen a different, let's say a different approach to handling this issue or is this just the government taking a stand for justice to take its course? Varsha Abhinna, thank you very much. If I heard you clearly, you mentioned confiscation of property by the EFCC. Is that correct? Yes. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. It doesn't, law is principally, or law principally does not, does not respect anybody. And if a law is to be seen as a good law or as law, it should not respect anybody. If there are interactions or there are things that based on the rule of law, if the EFCC finds it, decides that some of the properties are where by the, I think the immediate past of a former deputy Senate president. And the EFCC or not the law has the power and authority for the court to either freeze the asset or take it off from there. I to me, I do not see anything wrong with that. The problem that we have in this climate that our laws or the operation of laws in this climate seems to respect certain individuals, which ought not to be. So I'm curious, if we're respectors of the law, why not stand by it? Why the sudden call by the Senate? Why the sudden call by certain people who are in government, certain politicians, including a former president, why the call by a BKW Herrera asking for clemency, if we are, if we are saying that we want to stand for the law and we want to make sure that the law takes its course, why the sudden U-turn? Yeah, I do not know without, if you can hear me. I can hear you. I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Okay. You may mention of the calls and appeals from several persons, both are not both high-placed and Nigerians. So you get to thump out justice with message to me without sounding immodest. All those appeals will amount to nothing, they will amount to nothing. In the United Kingdom, the law does not respect anybody. There is no law for the so-called quote and unquote big man and not a law for this moment. For those that went all the way to the UK, to the United Kingdom to thump out justice with message or for clemency, how many times have they written, how many times have they stood up for the common man in Europe? If you go to the United Kingdom's prison, you will still find Nigerians, you will find some people that are from lower rung of the ladder. How many times have they written or appealed to United Kingdom for clemency for those people? Is it part of the same thing that we do in Nigeria? Maybe some of them think that it is still the same system that is in Nigeria that is pervading United Kingdom. I am very sorry to show some of them, that's not going to happen. It doesn't matter how many letters you have written, it doesn't matter how many ideas you have made, it doesn't matter how many motions you have made at the floor of the Senate. That will not change anything. If the law, if the law, if the prescription for punishment for your friends committed by Dr. Kuremado is five years, nobody will change it, nothing will change it. I can bet you the Magistrate will come at that day, will come at tomorrow as the case may be and read out the punishment in United Kingdom, the respect laws and I can tell you if the so-called quote-unquote travel travels of the former deputy president Dr. Kuremado, if it has happened in Nigeria or if it's in Nigeria, I am sure the reverse will be the case. But I quote me or quote me anywhere, the appeals made by the highly placed individuals in Nigeria will go to no issue, it will not in any way placate or make United Kingdom to change their laws. What may will happen at the end of the day is that if the prescription is five years between ten years and no option of finding, the only time the claimancy or whatever will come to play is if the offense has, there are latitudes for Magistrate to exercise dispassion, if there are no latitudes for exercise of the dispassion, nothing will come out of it and I can bet you that's the way it will be. Okay, let me come back to you, let's look at this issue Elvis, there are those who have said that there is some, you know, politics to this, I mean, for example, Ike Gurumada himself had told the court that he was being scammed during preliminary hearing of this case, but there are those who have posited that they suspect foul play and deep-seated politics of ranker from the get-go, especially because he was trying to run for a particular office at the time, what's your thought on this? Well, I mean, you cannot rule out the possibility of politics in the travesties that Ike Gurumada is currently facing, don't forget that before his arrest, he was practically a symbol of opposition in the country. You know, the PVP opposition to the present administration as a 2022, Ike Gurumada was practically the head of the group, you know, both at the Senate and in public forums. So essentially, you cannot rule out politics. But again, you also played into their hands. You know, I mean, you know, like my colleague earlier said, the law does not respect, you know, personalities, particularly, you know, in other countries of the world, like in the UK. The offence of trafficking, you know, under the Modest Liberal Act of 2015 is a very serious offence, and they take it very seriously. And the UK has been looking for a scapegoat to showcase the dynamics of that legislation. And they found it in Kurumadu. And unfortunately, like I said, you know, there was no support. There was no diplomatic support for Kurumadu. And so we couldn't get off the hook, particularly before the parties were preferred. So you cannot rule out politics. But like I said, you also as a politician, you have to be careful not to, you know, give an advantage to those who are seeking to put you down to do so. And on this particular occasion, Mr. Kurumadu has given his opponent the gun with which to shoot him down. Interesting. Let me come back to you by sobbing that. Now that the situation has come to where it has come to, does this, if of course the sentencing is just around the corner, like you have said and you have strongly stated, that all these pleas might just fall in deaf ears because the United Kingdom is not Nigeria. And on one way or the other, you're also saying that you do not trust the justice system in this country because its eyes are totally open and you can see the rich, the poor, the high and the mighty. Is this going to one way or the other send a message of sorts, a strong message to those who you would regard as the high and mighty in their dealings outside the borders of this country? Okay. I think your voice is a bit sent, but the few things I address, I think you mentioned about a kind of a comparison of the justice system in Nigeria. Let me say this again, maybe you can hear me better now. What I'm saying is that you had said that our justice system is not anything close to what you have in the United Kingdom. You had said that if the rules were reversed, Nigeria would one way or the other give the former senate president to slap on the wrist. And so I'm asking, what would people like him, what message would this send to people like him in terms of their dealings outside the shores of this country? Okay. It is very, very clear. I think without sending a modest derogatory to the judicial system in Nigeria, yes, we have met some progress or some levels of progress in certain areas. Yes, but there are still areas that the judicial system in Nigeria is still lacking behind. There are still no doubt about that. And there is no comparison between the two. Again, looking at one of the areas is that the quick response of the, if you look at the duration of this trial, you will see that obviously you can compare that with the Nigerian judicial system. If we still, if that trial took place in Nigeria, that would have been unsure by now, would have still been still at the preliminary stages or so. But that cannot be compared. Then another thing that you mentioned is that again, if Nigerians, we must understand that the two judicial systems are not safe. In the United Kingdom, like I said, there is operation of the law. There is a rule of law. The rule of law takes place. It's not the rule of mind. But in Nigeria, we have a somewhat, what I would refer to as a kind of a pseudo-rule of law, where rule of law takes happens only when the interest of a quote and unquote the powers that be wants it. Any time the powers that be is not interested in that, you will find the rule of law in a day. That's what we have here. And I think there is one big lesson or lesson or lesson that Nigerians must learn from this is that outside Nigeria, particularly in the West, it's not business as usual. There is no way from the beginning, anybody with a legal mind will know that a woman will be convicted because you cannot have somebody who is not a relative. You share no blood relationship. It's not a friend. It's not in any way related with a family for which a healthy adult or young person will want to donate a kidney. If you look at it from the intricacies, you will know, obviously, that we'll get to where we are. The lesson is that it's not the same thing. And again, it's high time in Nigeria we'll begin to allow for complete rule of law. This thing, you don't need rocket science to do what the United Kingdom has done. And for people that are saying there is politically contributed, I think that's, to say the least, that that's not true. It's not true. It's that I got Dr. Kuemadu to entangle himself in what has happened. It has no political connotation. That's what they do in Nigeria. Once they need the so-called big person, guess him for what is at the wrong side of the law, he cites and promotes political... All right, all right, by stopping that. Because of time we have to go, unfortunately, I was hoping that we would be able to get Elvis in on the conversation. But we're out of time. I want to say thank you. Elvis Asya is a legal practitioner. So is Obinacik. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for being part of the conversation. Thank you. Thank you for everything. Thank you. And that says on the show tonight, we want to thank you all for being part of the conversation. We will be back tomorrow, on Friday, with more politics stories within an outside Nigeria. I am Mary Ann Ako and have a good evening.