 Hello, welcome to NewsClick. As you all know, on November 25, the Rajasabha has passed Transgender Persons Protection of Rights Bill 2019, amid widespread protests from the community across the country. Though the opposition parties has urged the parliament to send the bill for refiner scrutiny, it was not done and the bill was passed. Earlier on August 5, the Lok Sabha had passed the bill without having much discussions. So, today we have with us Ray, a transgender activist and a student and Shun Banerjee, a lawyer and a transgender activist to talk about the ongoing protests and how inclusive the recommendations of the transgender bill 2019 are. There is a particular definition about transgender. So, how happy are you about the definition of transgender in the particular bill? I would say that we are not happy with the definition because the definition even now conflicts intersex persons with transgender persons. We often have this stereotype of transgender persons usually being people you know who are different at birth but that's not the case. That's usually intersex persons may or may not at birth have different characteristics which we may not be able to classify clearly within male or female. What this bill is doing is putting intersex persons under the definition of transgender persons. They may identify as man or woman or transgender person but directly putting them under the definition of transgender person is taking away their right to self-identify as man or woman. In this country when there is so little information and understanding of even transgender persons and intersex persons, taking this right away is going to put more amount of stigmatization and ostracization for even intersex persons. So, how this definition is contradicting with the NALSA judgment? So, when we talk about the definition of transgender, we should talk about the definition included in the Tiruchisiva bill. So, the Tiruchisiva bill is a private member bill which was introduced in the Raj Sabha and it was introduced in 2014, stood on 15 right. So, I will read out the definition that is mentioned in that particular bill. It says that a transgender person means a person whose gender does not match with the gender assigned to that person at birth and includes trans men and trans women. So, this part is there in this particular bill also in 2019. What they did not include is that there is a in this Tiruchisiva bill they also included whether or not they have undergone sex reassignment surgery or hormone therapy or laser therapy etc. So, they have excluded this part where they say that they have it is not necessary or mandatory for you to go through a sex reassignment surgery or a hormone therapy or a laser therapy to be associated under this particular definition of transgender bill, transgender. So, this is the main difference in the bill in the Tiruchisiva bill and the current bill. So, it is actually taking away or snatching away the right of self-identification because they are making it necessary and mandatory for us to be biologically to biologically prove our gender you know and which is which is also against the NASA judgment which says that it makes it illegal for us to be identified as a male or female through a biological test. They say the only test that is allowed or that is legal is a psychological test and any kind of biological test being asked from a transgender person is illegal. So, this definition is contradicting the NASA judgment directly. Transgender bill 2019 talks about the involvement of district magistrate in the process to get the identity certificate. So, tell us tell us the processes of these getting identity certificate and is it a regressive process or how it is affecting that dignity of a person? The only way that we can change that particular identity of a transgender to male or female is only after the sex reassignment surgery. For that there is another national agency of transgender national council of transgender person there is a new authority that they will be making under this particular act. So, this is regressive because this is asking a person to prove their identity of male or a female through a biological test because they are making it necessary for us to go through a SRS only then we can go and change our gender from transgender to male or female. Even now my documents state that I am a male or a man and I claim or I self-identify as a woman. So, if I have to change the legal documents under this bill if the bill passes and becomes an act what will happen is I will have to go to the district magistrate right now without any surgery I will be given certificate only as a transgender person. Once I go through the surgery then the chief medical officer will have to give me a certificate then I will have to reapply to the district magistrate and the bill mentions the word satisfied that is purely giving discretion in the hands of the district magistrate. This entire bill is about giving power to everyone else if you see the bill it's giving power to the district magistrate it's giving power to the chief medical officer it's giving power to the court all these people over us but not to that very transgender persons whose rights this bill claims to protect. So, while talking about the surgery normally how expensive are these surgeries and is our country well equipped to perform such surgeries in current scenario? First of all our country is not equipped. Even if there are surgeries being performed even the best of the doctors are not extremely experienced the levels which we see in the international levels because for this surgery and as such transgender persons identities have been very stigmatized. So, and medical community has pathologized us like anything made us into they made us into a disease then shifted to disorder now they have understood that it is not. So, even under the surgery it is expensive first, second there is no strong medical negligence law even this bill does not have any kind of penalty for transgender persons who are going through surgery and who are facing some wrong consequences of going through the surgery like there are people who have died on the operation table people who have had life long health consequences because of the surgery the surgeon can only do so much many or many times we might end up going to some other doctor also the very fact that doctors themselves do not even want to touch us many many doctors many doctors who do not want to even you know talk to us without stereotyping us is the fact that you know access to medical care is very very difficult and this bill does not even mention free access it only says access the bill doesn't talk about the free access it doesn't it doesn't mention anywhere that we will get free access to gender affirming procedures and currently now in India all this is classified under cosmetic surgery it is not classified under a vital or important surgery so we don't get insurance coverage also in the particular bill it doesn't talk about the expenses or whether the government is going to be or the expenses or not right see even under this bill earlier versions of the bill said 20 crores in its financial memorandum then it said 4 crores now it's only 1 crore i mean make it 0 crores if you don't want to give us money if you don't want to give money to implement the objectives of a certain actor legislation then why set out a piecemeal amount of money i would like to add one example of kerala over here because in kerala the state government has introduced a special transgender policy so in that policy they ensured reservation in certain colleges and for higher education and in health system i mean in the health care system in all medical colleges there is a separate team to deal with the issues of this community and it's free of course absolutely so in that way it's helping the community to treat their issues i mean if the community i mean if the person wants to go for a sex reassignment surgery then the government will bear the cost also for this actually i think we also need to understand that the kind of discrimination that we both people generally ask why do you need reservation why do you think education in unit reservation in education or employment so i'm not saying that we are not saying that it's the NASA judgment that said that and we were fighting for our personhood and our rights because this discrimination starts back from back from the colonial period in the under the criminal tribes act where a lot of communities including the the banjara communities were also banned and the people in the transgender communities were also banned to do certain certain works to do certain you know occupations they were banned and this affected the mindset of the people so much that we can still see the signs of the mindset even after the criminal tribe act was repelled and this this is pushing the you know there is a line through which we there's a starting line and when we say we need reservation because everybody is not starting from that particular starting line we are actually behind and the the reservation will only bridge the gap and that bridging of gap is the reason why we ask for reservation it's not something that because we are much just because we are marginalized no there is a lot of discrimination and there has been a lot of there is a lot of change stigma around this particular issue yeah in the bill there is one clause for national council for transgender persons but how inclusive is this particular council where you demanding for a national commission instead of national council if you remember there was a kochi metro you know whole thing that happened where the metro hire transgender persons I mean there is a lot of criticism of that too of how it went by because reality of society right but the very fact that there was a police commissioner of kochi city who came in and who made very transphobic comments saying that we will remove all these people you know all these nuisance from the city you know such people are the ones who have to be held accountable by this council who have to be sensitized you know the government should be held accountable for the their implementation of the schemes national council is going national commission on the lines of commissions for minorities that have been existing in this country and on the lines of national commission for women is what we have been demanding this council has majority of cisgender persons deciding for transgender persons five transgender persons how are you deciding how are you going to pick up five transgender persons so all this debate the rajasaba unfortunately did not go into this the this uh this national council is toothless powerless to do anything for everything the social justice minister has only one response reservation rules national council problem rules everything rules then why are you making a legislation make a policy and go about it bringing a legislation and parliament is to you know is for the all the representatives people's representatives to sit down and deliberate and see what is the best path and remind ourselves that this is a democracy where executive has to be held accountable by the legislature which unfortunately I don't understand why the executive and the social justice minister does not want to everything in the rules then I don't understand don't make an act for us as per the bill the transgender person cannot protect another transgender person if the person is facing some violence and subsequently the bill talks about rehabilitation senders so isn't it devaluing the kinship of the community which is prevailing right now not all the families of transgender people they they are being supported by the families and it will be great if the government is actually coming up with a shelter so that you know we have the all the facilities but when you say rehabilitation you treat that person as someone who has some disorder or is something to some illness yeah need saving we don't need saving if there are there are some facilities that you will provide us please provide a provided to us under the name of shelter not rehabilitation if you don't if you don't consider transgender people as something in the name of humanity if you say someone tell someone don't help this person it's the same as don't help this person after they meet meet with an accident on the road and even if they are bleeding you can have a police case so don't help that person so this will be the mindset that people will carry so for example if I am under 18 and I have a problem with my family the court will decide where I am going to stay that's what I said it's I ties back to the previous answer I gave that the court the chief medical officer the district magistrate all these three people are going to decide where how our bodies are going to look like where our bodies are going to stay and where our bodies are going to move so that is not right no you know if even if we can make an argument that people may not have any kind of friends nobody wants to help put a mandate on the states and the union government to open up shelter homes everywhere don't put the mandate on transgender persons to go into rehabilitation centres we have hijra groups, skinner groups, we have jokhtas, jogapiles, arvanis there are so many traditional socio-cultural communities in India to whom many of us especially trans women end up and that is not being recognized under this bill this bill says forced and bonded labour means they'll be criminalized this bill does not no longer mention begging but we all know that if they can't touch the nose by this way they'll touch the nose the other way and they will say that forced and bonded labour in implementation will mean police will arrest the gurus and elders of the community that is what is going to happen even under the anti-trafficking bill administration of hormones is being criminalized well a lot of us transgender persons are not given medical care as I already said so a fellow transgender person giving hormones to one more transgender person is criminalized so I don't know what the government is up to also in the obtaining identity certificate a minor person that parents of that minor person has to apply for the certificate so I mean in a way it's forcing the community to go back to the blood relations if we want to change our name say for example my name is Ray I want to change it to Kanmani I can't change my second name I can only change my first name if I have a problem with my family the court will decide and put me in a rehabilitation center with no time limit so if I'm gone there I'm gone forever it's like they are trying to ghettoize us they're trying to put us back into our natal families forgetting that natal families are the one of the first people who perpetrate violence on us often and that we have other structures which may not conform in your this heteronormative understanding of families of natal families they don't want that you know us like they don't want us to go beyond binary they don't want to go they don't want us to go beyond family and they don't certainly want us to decide our futures and have rights over body what what government in other countries like some of the countries those countries that I know comparatively they provide counseling for the parents you know which is so that even the parents can identify gender dysphoria in their kids from the very start because that will be helpful for the kids psychological issues will be less the trauma will be less because there's a lot of in under gender dysphoria the confidence of a kid gets affected a lot and if the parents are given counseling the they will have awareness around this issue and they will not look at it as a disorder or as a disease in their children you know and how many I mean I don't understand how how does the bill expect transgender children on the streets to access services of the court I mean I am a law student and I know for a fact that the court is extremely inaccessible to even very educated law students and lawyers how are people children under 18 going to access the court and is the court going to take in their consent their inputs as to where they want to stay the court that there is nothing under this bill which provides for the court to take in our inputs where we want to stay the bill simply says if you have problem with the family you the court will put you in a rehabilitation center that is basically like ghettoizing us our family mean here I think they are the funny part is the court is not approachable even after you are more than 18 you know have you got any chance to convey your concerns and demands over this particular issue see I don't understand I mean what we will I don't understand what consultation means because if they are going to consult us on a bill which affects us they should be taking in our inputs there is there was a whole parliamentary standing committee with MPs from both Rajasabha and Lok Sabha and there were transgender persons from across the country who deposed before that committee it brought out a huge amount of recommendations based on the an early version of this bill but none of those recommendations except improving the definition made it to this bill even the begging clause was removed only after like we have been protesting for two three years social justice minister by now knows all our inputs what our demands but somehow everything for him is in the rules including the fact that you know for sexual abuse and rape he'll put everything in the rules and that sexual abuse is not the same as rape I don't I mean we have tried and made them understand MPs after MPs I mean how opposition MPs have spoken there were more than 20 opposition MPs who spoke and many many MPs spoke against the bill but not even one amendment was taken by the government so this shows very clearly that they know what are the demands it's just that they don't want to take in their minutes so are you people planning for further protests in coming day what is the other option give us another option we'll take that there is no other option you know because if we will not protest there is no this is the only right we have right now there is already protests going on there is already protests there were protests in Bangalore Hyderabad there is protests in Mumbai Pune Chennai there have been press conferences which have been held in Delhi and multiple other cities the issue is that these kind of protests is not like just after this bill has been passed now these kind of protests have been going on since about 2016 in fact one of the largest protests happened people from across the country you know with their hard fought money came to Delhi to make the government listen but unfortunately they haven't listened we just have one demand the president should not sign this bill they should send it back to parliament using their pass under the constitution and this bill should be completely rejected so the community feels that the bill I mean the transgender bill 2019 tries to reduce the community to mere bodies rather than recognizing their rights so thank you Ray thank you for joining with us thank you