 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Okay, welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself Jackie Jones and the wonderful Mr Bob Cook. And we're on episode 96 now. Oh, I was wondering what episode it was as I was settling down. 96. Oh, four more to go. Four more to go in a month. We'll be reaching the centenary. I know, God. That'll be, that's going to be some celebration, a year of podcasts. A special one. Yeah, 100 episodes. That's nearly two years, Bob. If we're doing one a week and there's 52 weeks in a year, that's not so far off two years we've been doing this now. No, it's pretty good. Pretty good. Pretty good going. So this episode is called Hope and Dread in the therapy process. Yeah, and I'm now looking at you in your therapy room. Yes. So it's very apt. Yeah, it's actually, what I come with this title was that, there's a very well known, well he's died now, unfortunately, but very well known British psychoanalyst, probably, I would say the last most successful, most well known one in recent times, Stephen Mitchell, and his last book was titled Hope and Dread. I'm not sure it was in the therapy room, I think it was Hope and Dread I think it was just titled Hope and Dread. He was a relational psychoanalyst really, but he was well known. And this book is really interesting. It's 2010, I think, paperback, if you're interested in the subject matter. So I was wondering whether I was going to dread this podcast or whether I've got a feeling of hope and expectation. So I wasn't quite sure one, but I settled on the last one and I looked up the definition of hope. And it is, I believe that something better will happen. Oh, see that makes me quite emotional that Bob, I like that. Yeah, I believe that something better is going to happen. Yeah. However, or stroke and emotional or not, hope in the therapy room, or in a clinical setting, I believe has a double-edged sword. Okay. In other words, I used to say to a lot of my clients, hope was one of the most dangerous words in the English dictionary. That's what I mean by a double sword. Because hope, of course, I think there's a truth in the human essence that we keep hold of and believe that something better is going to happen. So therapeutically, that's a positive side of hope, keeping that desire, of course. The negative side or the flip side to that, of course, is when people, especially in relationships, stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. Hoping for something better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that. I mean, another way I look at this, that most people coming to therapy want the therapist to fix whatever the problem is. Yeah. And then they stay in the world of hoping or can do far longer than they should. And they may take a long time to be proactive because they're hoping, magically, that things will get better, which I said is the definition of hope. But if you stay too long in that place, you might hope forever. Yeah. So you think that sometimes people are just sitting hoping rather than being proactive in making a change? Yes. Yes, definitely. Okay. And they might have a magical belief that somebody's going to come around and fix it or change things for them. Yeah. And there's also that mindset of until, do you know what I mean? I'll stay here until something happens. I'll stay here until they change their mind or I'll stay here until things get better, whatever. So we just kind of tread water until something else happens. Which may never happen. Exactly. Yeah. I'm Eric Burnley, originator of Transaction Analysis. And he's one of his last books, which is one of his famous books on script. One of the scripts that he named was one you just talked about there. The until script. Yeah. Where people do exactly what you've just said. Yeah. And I think I come across that quite a lot with clients. And I think at times I actually have that myself when I think about it. That I'll do this until... You have a trait of that in you? Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting because you might have a trait of it. I don't know. But you're successful. You're proactive. You get things done. I can be at times. But then there's also that flip side with me, I think, where... Yeah. Where you can just hang around waiting psychologically. Yes. Yeah. I think to all of us to a certain degree might have that trait, if you want to put it that way, a little bit. The problem though, therapeutically or on the clinical setting, is when that process becomes... Or that script becomes fixed. Yeah. And nothing much else happens at all. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's something about handing over that control to another person. Do you know what I mean? You say if you're hoping that the client hopes that the therapist is going to fix them. It's like you're handing your future, your life and everything over to somebody else to sort out. And you must see that a lot of that in the therapy room over the years, haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And having that magic wand to me when the client wants me to fix them. The way that I look at it is that they've gone into their child ego state, and they want somebody else to take control and to sort everything out for them. Yeah. Because it's a desire that comes from the child ego state or the younger self. Yeah. I mean, you know yourself that our children, when they're younger, hope, desire, whatever word you want to use here, hand over that the parents will fix things for and do things for them and anticipate their needs. Yeah. And to a certain extent, of course, when we're younger, you know, as a child growing up, in a way that is the function to some degree for the parent. The problem comes in later life if they're still, you know, caught up in that same process. Yeah. And I think at times I've kind of held the client in that safe space without, you know, taking the control off them or letting them think that I'm going to fix it. But I think sometimes clients just need to know that we're on their side. Yeah. I mean, this big word here often used in the clinical parlors, and that is infantilization. Where we keep young, we keep clients young. Yeah. And we do it by attempting to sell pumpkins for them. Yeah. Or attempting to fix it. So they never have a degree of autonomy or independence or way of working things out because the therapist there does it before they do it. In other words, in other words, it's the opposite of what I think is one of the major principles of psychotherapy I follow. And that is that the therapist works towards helping the therapist or get to, sorry, helping the client get to the opportunity of their own truth, not the therapist's truth. Yeah. Have you, I have clients that often it's like a hot potato that we pass between us, do you know what I mean? Where I say, you know, if we're doing every so often, I'll do a, you know, like a catch-up session where we look back over, you know, what we've done and how far we've come and the changes that have been made and all that sort of stuff. And I'll say, you know, when we look back how far, you know, you've come and the changes that you've made, I'm really proud of the work that you've done and, you know, how do you feel about it and all that sort of stuff. And then they'll, you know, usually say something like, I couldn't have done it without you. It's because of you that I've done all of this stuff. And then I'll say to them, yeah, but you've done all the work. I've just been along with the journey for you. And we kind of like throw it backwards and forwards over whose responsibility it is, you know, that the changes have happened, if that makes sense. Yeah, it makes much sense. And this is why Eric Burn in 1961, when he created as a model of, you know, eager states and transactional systems, you and me trained it, put contractual theory at the top of his list. In other words, he wanted therapists and clients bilaterally to create adult to adult contracts for specific change, not parent to child contracts. Yeah. Yeah. Which sits better with me, because, you know, I know we've spoke about this many, many times in a lot of the, you know, the episodes that we've done that, you know, I don't feel like I'm the expert and I'm the one with all the answers. You know, it's like, we go, I'm okay, you're okay. And we go in on the same, the same level. And I feel comfortable with that. Yeah. I think it was 2019, that the drama series set in Vienna in 1901, called Vienna Blood, I think it's called. And you have a budding detective. And I have to explain this, a sort of consultant who's a medical person. And he's also one of the first Freudians, in other words, psychoanalysts. And it's interesting because, though the program is mainly about, you know, solving cases, he also comes up with these interpretations of what Freud would say, what Freud wouldn't say. And you're correct. Freudian psychoanalysis is based on a one up, one down position, where the psychoanalyst is the expert interpreting the meanderings of the patient, not a adult contract, bilateral contact, where two people are working towards a specific change. So that would be a parent to child contract then, a Freudian contract. Absolutely. To the extent that the analyst, the, what do they call them, the clients or patients, let's say patients would lie on, you know, a couch. And the analyst would stay as much as they can behind the vision of the patient. And I think they were told to take, to say no more than three interpretations in the 15 minute meandering, but they would be parent led interpretations. I quite like that word meandering. I mean, just going anywhere you want to go to. Yeah. It's often called in the psychoanalytical parlors, free association. But the interpretations were parent led. So the opposite of the idea of contractual theory and adult to adult specific focuses on change. Yeah. I think it's empowering for the client to understand that, you know, the changes that are made that they've been proactive in it. It's kind of like hypnotherapy. I've got nothing against hypnotherapy or hypnotherapists. And I did an NLP course that had hypnotherapy as part of it. And I think it has a role to play. But for me, it's kind of like done to a person. The person isn't proactive in it. You just lie there with your eyes closed and you're, you know, you're not really an active participant in it somehow. Yeah. I'm often paramount adult to adult contracts at the beginning of the therapy. Yeah. A focus on the bilateral change, both therapists and clients sign up for. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's very empowering. So what about dreading the therapy room then, Bob? That's just one, yeah, I'd like to go with that. I just want to catch one step back on hope. Okay. So, so I'm saying the negative side is what we've just said, all those things. And a really big negative side is when people stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should, hoping that somehow the relationship will change. And they may stay in it to a level where the toxicity is so harmful that they then have to come to therapy. So that's what I meant by hope can also lead to people staying in it. Very toxic, harmful relationships, hoping that the other person will change. Yeah. And when you're talking about toxic relationships, you're not necessarily talking about husband and wife or girlfriend and girlfriend or anything like that. It could be, you know, siblings or it could be a working relationship or it could be your parents and child or the child's adult. So any relationship, yeah. We stay in it and in TA language, you know, the child in the crowd yearns for an expected process where things will get better. Yeah. And that's a very de-empowering place to come from. So I just want to say that, of course, the other side I've just talked to you about is a positive side where we can keep hold of the desire that things will change. But that balance around what hope means and what it doesn't mean for the clinic, for the crowd is a really important one to reflect on, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Because as well as, you know, external relationships or whatever, the relationship between the therapist and the client as well. You know, I always say to clients that, you know, if there is anything that's kind of rumbling in our relationship, that we need to bring that in the room and discuss it. Yeah. That's right. And you know, Jackie, and I hope you do know this and I expect you do know it. But you carry, you are the vehicle, usually, of hope for the client. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You carry their flame. Yeah. Which is a responsibility. Yeah. It's a responsibility and it's a very important, I think, concept to reflect on that you don't get rid of that hope, that you carry that hope and at the same time explore the darker side of hope. Yeah. So I think hope's a really important thing to think about when it's therapy. And of course, if we're going to go to dread, dread is basically when we get so frightened and so worried that something awful is going to happen. So we dreads going into a situation because we get excessively frightened or worried that the world will collapse or something dreadful is going to happen. That's really what dread is about. Yeah. In the therapy process, you're going to experience that a lot with clients, of course, who know at some level that come to, you know, have a motivation at some level or some hope if you like. This is why hope and dread is sort of on this sort of fine balance. That through a therapy to exploration their lives will get better. However, they often dread, excessively worrying and get very frightened of the dark sides they might have to go to. Yeah. To find the lightness of hope. Yeah. And, you know, that's something that I often have a discussion with clients in the early days. And, you know, I don't want to frighten them off or anything, but that sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. You know, coming because of anxiety. When we start to make a change and we do something different, that can be quite anxiety provoking. We can feel a bit more anxious if we're stepping out of our comfort zone or doing something that we don't generally do. So, you know, that feeling of dread or overwhelm is something that you see quite often. You see it very often. And that's why I said to you that you carry or you are the vehicle for the hope for the person or the client. Because a flip side is a dread. Yeah. They have to go to darker places, which perhaps then put into a compartment and repress for a very long time. Yeah. That's what I mean, you see, by saying you carry the hope, the lightness, the beacon, the change can happen. Yeah. That's why they're interlinked. Yeah. And it's kind of like you being the stability or the anchor and know that, you know, it's okay. Yeah. And you do both to some dark places, sometimes with some clients in the therapy room. That's why I think dread is a good word. Yeah. Because that excessive fear and worrying that maybe they'll never get back or get stuck in a place. I've just watched the whole series of dark materials, which is on television. Do you know that? It was the trilogy of the Pullman series. And for people listening to it, they'll probably watch the, you know, what's this, these four episodes, I think, of the three books. And I think this episode is gone, so we're okay. Where the lead person, I can't fit the girl, I can't forget her name at the moment. But anyway, she feels she has to go into the land of the dead to actually find her friend and redeem herself because she let her friend down. And the hope that he will be there and that he will forgive her. So though she dreaded and she was frightened stiff of going into the land of the dead, the beacon of hope that something better would happen and forgiveness in this case, drove her to go into the land of the dead. She did actually find a friend who did, little boy, did forgive her if you want to put it that way. And together, they found a way out of the dreadful place of the world of the dead into a much more hopeful scenario. And I think therapy's like that. Yeah. I can't imagine a life or a world without hope. I'd like to think that we always have that beacon. Somebody somewhere has got that beacon. Well, in the clinical room, you often carry it for the client. Because they're so afraid of the dark places, they can't quite grasp hold of hope, or that beacon of hope just for a while has gone out of sight. So it's the therapist's duty if you like or therapist's position, just just hold that hope of them while we explore the darker places. What a wonderful way to end it. I quite like that. I'm very visual. When you're talking in metaphors and using all these sorts of things, I usually picture things in my mind. And I quite like that one. Yeah. And that payback is about this. And that balance between hope and dread is such a crucial, I think, place for a therapist to not only reflect on, but take on the beacon of hope that the client just transfers over to you for a while, while they go to places they've made dread. Yeah. And it's through permissions, I think. And we've talked about this in another podcast, validity, protection, all the things that we have talked about in the podcast, where a person tentatively holds the beacon, oh, sorry, passes the beacon of hope over to you, the therapist to hold and to not let go of and to give back at a later time of the therapeutic process, I think. Yeah. And, you know, for anybody listening, this is why, you know, the therapy relationship is so important because the trust that you need between two people in order to do that. Oh, this won't happen with that. Yeah. Yeah. This will not happen without deep trust. Yeah. And therapy, in my opinion, therapy effect, you know, effective therapy also won't happen without deep trust. Absolutely. And it will be requisite of a working relationship. Yeah. Because if you're talking about somebody, you know, practically or metaphorically handing over the beacon of hope to somebody else to hold on to while they go to these dark places, that's not going to happen overnight. That's not going to happen in, you know, a few sessions. No, it won't do. And that's the therapy that needs to happen. I do all the assessments at the Institute. That means people come in and sorry, they've phoned up or the email or whatever it is, they come in for half an hour, have an assessment, and then I pass them on to the therapist of their choice. Now, I always, well, this podcast has made me think about this, but I think I always think about how, you know, courageous it is for somebody to come into the therapy. And I also think the pin concept, you know, the pivotal concepts of what we're talking about, the hope, the desire that something better will happen through the therapeutic process coupled with nervousness, fear, worry, that it might not, that it might actually not get better. Yeah. They are huge components of a therapeutic process. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, if you've not been to therapy before, you don't know what to expect. You know, it's a massive journey that people, you know, endeavor to take. They endeavor to take it. And I never for one moment forget the courage it often takes for the person to come through the door, even if they don't think they're brave in the first place. I think that quite a lot with clients when they first come that, you know, for us, and I'm not making light of the situation, but for us, you know, we do this day in, day out. We have a lot of clients and we, you know, we're going through this process, you know, consistently. But for somebody to walk in for the first time, it's a big deal. Very big, dear. And quite often they may cut part of themselves off to force themselves to come in the therapy room. Yeah. And pretend it's no big deal, but it is a big deal. And hope and dread are very pivotal, you know, processes that play out in the therapy room from the beginning, I believe. Yeah. Absolutely. It's interesting because only this week it's happened that I've had a new client that canceled. And, you know, straight away, I always think, right, I'll, you know, we made another appointment for, you know, in a week's time. But I got a sneaking suspicion that they canceled not because they weren't feeling very well, but because the fear had started to creep in. So I'm going to kind of give them the week. And if they cancel again, then I won't, I don't want to say I'll be on them, but I will be having a discussion over the phone with them as to, you know, what's going on. Yeah. So dread. Yeah. Fear of the unexpected, a fear of black things, a fear of darkness, probably started to overwhelm them. And this is where I'm saying that the therapist needs to pick up the beacon of hope in this situation if, and it's very difficult if they're not arrived, there's only been one session, if the person allows the beacon to be handed over to the therapist. Now, of course, you know, clients may be not ready to do that. And that's what I meant. And sometimes people come into my office and they said, Oh, I've been meaning to come here for the last year. Oh, I pass the front door when I look at the sign says counselling and therapy and I keep saying to myself, I must go there. Yeah. And eventually they find the motivation and the hope that things will be better. And they ring me up. Or they come to the front door. Yeah. Because I suppose there's always that situation or the possibility that, you know, the clients are thinking that I must go to therapy. Or if I go to therapy, things will get better. But then there's always that fear that what if I go to therapy and things don't get better. Yeah, hope and dread. That's literally the hope. There's always going to be therapy that can help me. But what if is can often follow it? Yeah. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. And that's why I feel and I haven't felt for a very long time through my career, how privileged I am when people hand over the beacon of hope to me. Yeah. And you've held a first few, I would imagine over the 38 years that you've been doing it, Bob. Yeah. And I, it's always been a privilege for me. Well, thank you for that. You're welcome. Another enjoyable podcast. So what we're going to be talking about next time is re-parenting and what is it? Oh my gosh. Big topic. We should have about four podcasts on this, but we've only got one. Oh dear. Anyway, I've really enjoyed this podcast and I'm sure I'll enjoy the next one. So until next time, Bob. Bye bye. Take care. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.