 All right. Welcome everyone to our event today. My name is Carrie Hansen. I am the vice president of SoCAP. We're really excited to host this event in partnership with TIP and all of our esteemed authors and guests today. Not only is this our first book launch party virtually or otherwise, but this is also a first in terms of being an event that's admitted through our SoCAP community platform, which is where we are, it's user generated content, and we are bringing your voices forward, highlighting the important topics that you are working on, and that we need to work on together and creating space for more collective action. And so I am delighted as part of the our next steps to turn the mic, not only over to you as the community, but to turn the mic over to Monique Akin, managing director with TIP, and she is going to get us all rolling for the rest of our event. Please chat your comments, questions, ideas, what's your loving hearing? In the chat feature, you are all muted as you're coming in. But then we will have space and time for Q&A later. But Monique, over to you. Thanks, Carrie. And thanks to everyone for being here to celebrate the launch of these two frontier pushing books, 21st century investing directing financial strategies to drive systems change, and moving beyond modern portfolio theory, investing that matters. Over the next hour or so that we're together, we'll hear from Steve Prasanti, founder and senior editor of Barrett Kohler, the publisher of Bill and Steve's book. Then we'll hear from Bill, president of TIP who provide a high level overview of the themes from his and Steve's book. Then Jim Howley, senior ESG advisor at True Value Labs, a fax at company, and professor emeritus of School of Business, sorry, School of Economics and Business at St. Mary's College of California, will share a synopsis of moving beyond portfolio theory, his and John McConnick's book. John is the managing director of Sinclair Capital. We'll then be joined by three leaders in our sector to share their hot takes or warm takes, I'm not sure, but there'll be warm takes who and then they'll be joined in conversation with Jim, John and Bill. Lisa Davis, executive director of Impact Investing at J.M. Real Estate, Kelly May-Green, institutional consultant at Greystone, Renee Manley, deputy director of strategic initiatives department at Service Employees International Union and deputy trustee at SEIU Pension. Finally, we'll have Q&A with all of you to follow. And as Carrie said, please share your questions and comments in the chat and we'll try to get to as many of them as we can. So thanks again for coming. And with that, I'll turn it over to Steve for SINC4Q opening remarks. Thank you. It has been a great privilege to serve as the editor working with Bill and Steve on this book. I have been a business book editor for 39 years. So I'm a little bit ancient in this arena. And during those 39 years, I have worked on many, many hundreds of books. And so I have a lot of experience in this realm. I may be the most experienced business book editor in the country. And I can say, in complete honesty, that this is one of the most important books that I've worked on during these 39 years engaged by the importance of the book, the potential impact of the book, how much of a difference this book could make in the world, how much this could change. It could affect the flow of billions and maybe even trillions of dollars of investment over time as people start to put into practice the ideas, the concepts, the messages in this book. There aren't very many books that one has the privilege of working on that can have such a far reaching impact. But this is one of them. And of course, that all depends upon whether people actually pick up the book and read it and apply the ideas. But this group here that's on this call today is going to have a very big impact on that. You are what we call ass alongers or the first adopters or the people that will first others to get them excited about the book. And so you're going to have an outsize impact on what's the trajectory of this book and how much does it make a difference. I will say that it was also just a great privilege to work with Bill and Steve on this book. They were tremendous as authors. I threw everything at them all the tricks in that I had in terms of giving them a hard time putting them through the ringer because the subject matter is very complex. Any time you're talking about systems change, but by definition systems change is enormously complex. And and then you bring in financial change. I mean, kind of everything was going against it in terms of writing a readable book given the systems focus given the financial focus given the this being so about guard being looking forward. Everything was stacked against the authors. And so I we worked round after round after round of refining the concepts and and they bill is laughing here because he knows he really was put through the grinder on this. But but they they kept coming back for more and coming back for more and we kept refining it refining it. And so I think they they're champions. They did a tremendous job, Bill and Steve together. And and so even though this this is, you know, I wouldn't say the book is an easy book, but it's about as clear, straightforward, simple as one could possibly make it given the the the importance in the complexity of the material. So I consider the book to be a great accomplishment. And and and I'm I'm I'm thrilled that Barry Kohler is able to publish it. It's a great fit with our list. I think it's going to make a huge difference in the world. I will stop there. And I should mention also, I'm going to have to jump off after a while. I actually have another event. Another one of our authors is having a similar event at the same time. So Bill and Steve got first, first preference, but I have to jump to another one after a little while. Well, thank you for joining us, Steve. And honestly, we're collectively humbled by those words. I think the path ahead of us is good work, but hard work. And thank you for making a readable book, Steve. Bill, you're up and please share a little bit more about about for 21st century. Yeah, so just first a big thank you to Kerry for hosting us and and obviously to Steve for literally every gray hair that I now have in my head that came through in the last 18 months. So Steve ended with a statement. I want to start with a question. So what are the biggest threats to an investor's portfolio these days? Climate change impacts all investors across all asset classes, income inequality, threats to polarized politics, paralyzed governments, destabilized democracies, and lead to nationalistic populism, trade wars, and even geopolitical conflicts. Pandemics disrupt economic models and require heroic efforts by governments and private enterprise to keep system wide collapse at bay. These are the 21st centuries fundamentally destabilizing new and different social and environmental challenges. They are global. They have tipping points that once past cannot be reversed. They are systemic risks in a highly interconnected and complex world. And they threaten long term investment across all asset classes in ways that traditional risk management cannot cope with. All of which leads to the $200 trillion question. How are investors supposed to act on the systemic risks tips new book out today by myself and Steve Leidenberg on 21st century investing redirecting financial strategies to drive systems change provides an answer. The book which lays out a roadmap for how investors can shift their investment practices to meet the challenges of modern times is based on the work Steve and I have been doing for the past six years with our team at tip a consulting services and applied research firm. The big idea at the center of the book in our work generally is that investors need to better understand and act on the big picture context of their investments and the feedback loops between their investments in the planet's overarching systems that make profitable investment opportunities possible. We at tip have coined the term system level investing to describe this challenge. Now to navigate this bumpy terrain 21st century investing essentially provides the what why and how of system level investment. What it means to manage system level risks and rewards. Why does imperative to do so now and how to integrate this new way of thinking into current practice. The six key elements of that process are the same for all investors set goals decide where to focus allocate assets apply investment tools leverage advanced techniques and evaluate results for each step along the way we illustrate the need for and benefits of incorporating a system level perspective. Take an issue like income inequality for instance system level investors ask not only how they can manage the risks posed by the systemic issue by the systemic issue for this or that portfolio but what initiatives they can take that will create fundamental change in the system itself that has generated growing income inequality. They look for leverage points within the current system that will drive change. This means for example advocating for setting of a minimum wage not just by one firm but in a locality state or nation. The same can be said for other key leverage points such as diversity unions and workers rights taxes and safety. They want to see to it that industry standards are set voluntary if necessary regulatory if possible and demand that government enforce the laws and regulations already on the books. They recognize that to make system level change happen one voice is not enough system level investors join with their peers to amplify their message on the importance of addressing income inequality and increase their influence. So put another way those making progress adopt tactics such as investing in portfolios entirely targeted or heavily weighted towards social and environmental solutions and advocate for public policies that reduce systemic risks and advance the health and resilience of crucial systems. They engage in industry levels to set standards and norms they collaborate with others to amplify their influence and they set clear goals for system level not simply portfolio related progress and report on how they're working to achieve these goals. What these examples show is that it's time for a big leap a really big leap into the future with a new era of investing as we describe in the book doing so is not only what investment should be but what it must be if the financial community is to do its part to avoid a multiplicity of collapses and crises that will threaten our complex world in the coming decades and take advantage of the opportunities that addressing these challenges head on at a fundamental level can generate not only for themselves but for all investors and rest assured the investment community is catching on to the importance of this idea awareness of systemic issues and the urgency needed to address them is increasingly reflected in the heightened concern by investors for responsibility for the stewardship of their assets one that policymakers and those concerned with corporate governance are gradually integrating the language of systemic risks into for example in the UK stewardship code 2020 principal for directs as asset owners and managers to identify and respond to market-wide and systemic risks to promote a well-functioning financial system the CFA Institute the Global Association of Investment Professionals has also echoed this sentiment in a recent report acknowledging the multiple fact interconnected factors that drive the investment ecosystem CFA advised readers to move beyond traditional ESG practices and into system-level thinking today investors of all stripes have the opportunity to become part of this important transition in early adopters of a transformational movement Steve and I have been on this journey together for nearly six years and there are many more steps for us to take TIP has a number of projects in the works that build on the book and that will make the journey easier for other investors chief among them is a turnkey program that TIP will soon launch that will enable investors to implement internal processes geared toward system-level investing this initiative will provide investors with a resource for navigating the complications of building a system level investing knowledge base and practice identifying effective actions partners and initiatives measuring reporting on achievements keeping up to date on global developments and key aspects of public policy industry trends and innovative initiatives and identifying future trends so as you walk with us down this path please share the good and the bad the simple and the complex in your transition to system-level investing and for those not yet on this path to a new normal for investing practice we welcome you to join us you know I can't help but smile at the incredible group of panelists authors colleagues and attendees that have joined us today to think this whole thing started six years ago at a Panera bread downtown Boston over some pastries my co-author and dear friend Steve and I had met to discuss a report I had written a report I thought was superb and Steve thought was and I quote fine now Steve has always been one for brevity and I like to think that that's why he didn't overpraise my work but the real reason was Steve had had already been working on the idea of system-level investing and my report missed that mark he would explain this idea to me that day either I would decide to join him in building a company around it six years later I'm still in all by how far we have come and the potential of where we can be another six years from now so I can't help but smile because we are on the road to systemic change because we know how to get there because we have met some remarkable people on the way because Steve and I had that crucial meeting in that Panera all those years ago and because we just released a book that can help push the industry forward a book Steve describes as slightly better than five thank you guys for having us thank you Bill are you a croissant guy or more of a Panerazone chocolate croissant all the way come on okay very good and thanks for that and Jim Jim if you could unmute yourself and you know share some thoughts about your and John's book sure thank you all for organizing this the Bill and Steve's book and ours we did not plan together nor did we consult with our publishers to have them published two and a half weeks apart but nevertheless it is a fortuitous coincidence I think and I think actually it has meaning aside from the chance element of it and the meaning is at least two fold that John and I have long known both Bill and Steve and we've all had conversations that said these were I think somewhat parallel track books and ours in a sense is a background I think to Bill and Steve's and our book is obviously on modern portfolio theory and the notion very quickly is that the MBT revolution which in some ways began in 1952 with Harry Markowitz is a famous article but actually got going in a practical sense in the 80s for a host of reasons has really outlived its age and not its usefulness but as sort of a totality of complete way of investing and thinking about investing it's time to move beyond it and our book is an attempt to do that the purpose is not a modest one the goal actually is to redefine what investment is and what its true north star should be and it's time to reintegrate finance with a broader economy and society and in that sense also very much has the kind of systemic outlook that Bill and Steve's book does there's no way I'm going to take approximately seven minutes more and summarize the book that is not something I'm going to try so what I'm going to try to do is highlight a couple of the what we think are some of the key elements of the book one of the ones we talk about is a major paradox we call the MPT paradox and I think the analogy is to a one-way valve it lets air or water in one side and compresses it or expands it and pushes it out on the other side and what that means is that essentially built into the MPT worldview is that markets affect or can affect your investments but that you cannot affect the overall market and so the MPT focuses on what matters to investors least that is to say you can't control beta you can or at least think you can control the search for alpha what matters least is that alpha or what we call the alpha beta spectrum is that beta swamps alpha in terms of determining of returns and so that the issue then really becomes the how risk management is defined in MPT and how we attempt to essentially redefine it I would say expand it it's not that we're throwing the MPT baby out with the bath water but the baby has grown so to speak and outgrown the little tub that the water was in when the baby was an infant so if you look at MPT in terms of its risk target its idiosyncratic risk if you look at the technique it's clearly diversification and it is looking at in that sense the least mean variance of the portfolio along an efficient frontier or in some cases multiple efficient frontiers the playing field is or are the capital markets and the focus clearly is on volatility but not necessarily or indeed not at all on the causes of volatility we talk about something we call the third stage of corporate governance we've also talked about that as beta activism a term that has been picked up a lot and we're very pleased with that I'm not sure we coined it we thought we coined it but perhaps not but we have no proprietary ownership of the term at all and at the very end if I have time I'll give some examples though I think they fit in very much to what Bill talked about in terms of what beta activism is so that to take the valve analogy really what we have here is a two-way valve it's got at least two inputs and one outcome and that's really a very very different way of looking at investments so to follow through for a minute on what I talked about it targets risk but the risk it targets is systemic risk is systematic risk excuse me that is risk that affects the whole portfolio or at least a very very large chunk of it and that is very much related to system risk the kind of risk that Bill talked about issue of gender and ethnic and racial inequality income inequalities issue of climate change issues of biodiversity things that affect the core functioning of the economy the society and therefore of the financial markets the risk technique is to mitigate risk around social environmental and financial risk beyond the structure of the investment portfolio that you control or indeed perhaps think you control the playing field in that regards is not simply the capital markets but it's the broader economy and society and that has multiple implications the goal is improved market market risk and risk return of profits but it has a different way of looking at that then in a narrower and self defined or self constrained internalized MPT view of the world which is strictly constrained and the focus therefore is really between issues of volatility as MPT sees them but other forms of market risk in the broader political economy and the book is an attempt to play that out in terms of examples and how this came to be we focus a lot on issues of externalities we focus a lot on a collection of classical economists three of whom won Nobel prizes two of whom didn't because they were they died too early starting with Smith and talk about each of their own very radically different ways what was important to them was the relationship between markets and the broader and the broader political economy and in some cases financial markets as well and so we essentially try to bring economics in a broad sense back in and we feel that in general finance obviously had its origins in economics but has especially in its U.S. version starting from the 50s on has really shot off in its own direction and in that sense the culmination of that has been MPT but it has been again in a very isolated way which has done in our view both significant damage by going on as usual there are a number of elements of this let me just mention one obvious one that when MPT even in the 80s but certainly when it was theoretically conceived and began its development in the in the 1950s the capital markets were extraordinarily decentralized in the U.S. 92% were own of assets and equities were owned by individuals 8% by institutions is close to done a complete flip by now so that you have highly concentrated markets and everybody more or less is using a similar analytic technique and that's a problem that is MPT has been unbelievably successful but has now not accounted for the problems of its own success and our book attempts to address that so that's a very quick not a rundown of the book but a couple of highlights and perhaps some of the context so I'll stop there thank you thank you Jim and I think we'll begin at the beginning with our discussants Lisa, Kelly and Renee and I just love to hear a high level response from each of you on the concepts that Bill and Jim outlined and the utility of them and broadly in your own work so perhaps Renee, maybe we'll begin with you and then we'll turn to Lisa and then Kelly Yes, so first of all I want to thank Sokka for and the authors for inviting me to be a part of this discussion today you know I'm thinking I'm excited about the theories that both books raise both in my work with institutional investors and trustees and in my own role as a trustee you know we see that in our dialogues with investors that they want to be to be able to address these issues and a more systematic and holistic way and they often are feel like they're prohibited from doing so you know from you know kind of the institutional kind of traditional corporate governance of viewpoints and I think this provides and kind of an alternative theory that support you know their role in thinking about this and supports supports it from a prediciary standpoint and I think that's really exciting and I can't wait to I've already begun to share this with them and I can't wait to have them kind of read the books and get their viewpoints on it so this is really exciting Thanks Renee and Lisa what's your take Thanks I mean I agree wholeheartedly with Renee it's really wonderful to have a lot of very specific and well researched conversation to support some of the things that many of us have seen intuitively in our work and I would like to just take a moment and talk about how I see some of this playing out in the sector where I work which is real estate sector so I work for Pijim real estate where one of the asset management companies of Prudential Financial and I lead an impacting investing strategy at the firm and you know one of the things that has become very clear to me in the last year is that real estate is not the stock market and so it actually responds and is incorporated into multiple systems that you all speak about in very concrete ways but to date because we've looked at it in the aggregate we have been subject to a market bias towards looking at how real estate is affected by people with high incomes so you know real estate investment and portfolio theory with real estate investment is that you invest in industrial office residential but you think about it in terms of where the highest amount of money is spent so high-end retail class A apartments and the reality is that if you bifurcate the sector and look at not just the highest income spending but spending across all incomes and therefore addressing inequality you see that we have to address things like affordable housing and industrial production and essential retail and essential services if we're going to have a healthy sector overall and we're really living through a time where we understand how closely all of these systems are integrated into one another so that when people are struggling in terms of losing jobs through the pandemic when people are struggling with racial inequality that's manifest in the physical systems that we all live in that the whole real estate sector suffers and that in fact the essential parts of the real estate system affordable housing and industrial production are the most stable through a time like this and that runs in many ways counter to this seeking alpha kind of approach that a lot of traditional real estate investors have focused on and so you know just to conclude I think there are a lot of things that we can talk about in the real estate sector that are very concrete about how these systems interlock from labor to raw materials to manufacturing to some of the other sort of societal systems like you know race and income but the one that I'm really interested and focused on right now is the connection between climate change the climate change system the climate system and inequality so look forward to talking more about that thanks a lot Lisa we deeply appreciate those comments in the practical nature of applying these ideas to your work and your asset class and it will just turn to Kelly also for some some thoughts broadly how these books are landing with you in your realm thanks Monique and thanks to SoCAP for hosting and thanks for a tip for inviting me and thanks Jim for writing your book there are three points that I'd like to cover Grace on Consulting is the institutional consulting business of Morgan Stanley wealth management and so we have a continuum of institutional clients that we work with and the concepts in the books that are most resonant with me at the moment as we're unpacking them first is you know the more things change the more things stay the same right the process that tip laid out the methodology of setting goals and understanding belief systems you know those are are you know practice practical steps that we take that we lead our clients through at every level right the question is where are the belief systems sitting today for our clients and where should they be sitting and you know this book 21st century is really challenging where should they be sitting and then for our role is to try to figure out how then to implement some of these actions to move down the continuum should a client be so inclined the next thought was really about and captured on the book about in the books about applying you know kind of old world thoughts to a new world system the analogy that was used if you would go to a doctor who you know was using 50 year old practices would you turn around and walk out or stay the same and I and I thought that that was really resonant in trying to challenge all of us about the practicality of how some things change and some things stay the same and what things should be changing in our own methodologies and then the final point that I'll make is really about risk and the definition of risk and Jim talked about this a lot in our work we look at it a lot we look at risk as it is defined or has been defined as those risks that are affectable through the investment process and you know we have been operating under the presumption that market risk is not affectable right we've been operating under the assumption that the role of investors is to deal with the things that are manageable within the system or definable and quite frankly the role of consultants have been to create trade-offs between risk and return on a two prong access and now risk return and impact on a three prong access and this is really pushing conceptually much further down on that continuum about what risks are actually affectable through different approaches and I think you know many of our thought leaders inside the firm around impact and impact investing have been wrestling with how we deal with discrete pillars of impact based on a client's belief system and structures and how do we push the asset management community to create more products this is really a conversation that might be a new frontier for the consulting business to help to understand by clients and help to shape for clients what their actual theory of change is so if we have clients who have an interest in gender equality or racial equality what is the theory of change that they believe in and how does that manifest itself in investing I know we're going to talk about this more but there's a lot of advocacy and approaches and historically that has not been the role in the consulting space not only not to advocate but to relinquish the advocacy toolkit in the quiver to others and this is really showing the intersectionality between those tools to be more comprehensive and so it's interesting I think you know kudos to the authors of both books for really challenging the assumptions here that are critical and you know we've seen what managing systemic risks and external shocks can do to the financial markets and the markets you know in many cases many investors will say well the market is not the economy and I think that is what we're being challenged to rethink today right the connectivity between the market capital markets and the economy and the responsibility as investors and as living within the economy so kudos to everyone and I look forward to continuing the conversation thanks Monique thank you Kelly and Renee um I think you had another thought that you'd like to share before we allow Bill and Jim and John to um respond yeah I also just wanted to just write how I felt this resonated for our our members at FDIU you know we represent um service workers primarily and healthcare workers and so um you know our average member retires with a pension of about $28,000 they're not rich by any means you know we are the union who is fighting for a minimum wage increase and so when we're often engaging with either you know large institutional investors or corporate players about you know where they can play a role I think we look at these issues from a structural and systemic vantage point and I think you know both of these publications really um provide us with tools I think that empower our you know our I think our existing arguments our existing our existing frameworks and I think it's important because I think you know for folks who are used to kind of corporate governance as usual investing as usual they need the new context and new frameworks and new data points quite frankly that helps them kind of step out of that box and I think both of these publications help provide that for them so just wanted to add that Thanks Renee and John maybe we'll bring you in since you are also one of the co-authors but didn't get a chance to have your seven minutes of airtime but like to hear your responses given what Lisa and Renee and Kelly have shared and I also want to thank Carrie and Sobeck never would for inviting us you know it's interesting I think I think you guys nailed it the you know as Renee said people feel prohibited from dealing with these issues and in some ways people think these ideas are radical because oh my goodness why don't you just stay in your lane and you know I think Kelly would recognize that what MPT does it's a very efficient vacuum cleaner for extracting the best possible return from the extent marketplace but that's only six to 25 percent of your return if depending on if you're reading you know if it's in a Brydson or whichever background paper you're getting systematic risk is much more and the problem is that the only link to where value is created where the system systemic risk is being generated and in this case risk is bilateral it's opportunity as well right the only place where value is being created is in the real world and the only link that MPT has to it is price and price is a pretty thin read to convey all that is going on right and and it's in some ways MPT here's a combination you've never heard before MPT is Oscar Wilde's definition of cynical right it's something that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing it also incredibly hyper discounts the future because of this assumption that these risks are not mitigable because they don't yield to the only tool MPT has which is diversification and they're not diversifiable so you have to deal with them at the source in the real world and so this feels very radical that we're not staying our lane and that we've all grown up thinking somehow the capital markets are this hermetically sealed mathematical calculation away from the real world but really what we're doing is we're bringing back a very old idea and it's MPT that was radical in and the current way of investing that's radical in saying no you know you don't have to consider the real world Lisa pointed out that in real estate you have to consider it all the time occupancy rates in you know different sectors and what we need to do is take a step back and say if we are going to fulfill the twin purposes of investing which are to create the best risk adjusted return for investors which is not an alpha risk adjusted returns a total risk adjusted return right if you're up if you're down eight when the market's down 10 great awful risk adjusted return you still have 90% on the dollar to retire on right and to intermediate capital to where it's societally useful you have to realize all investments have impact their feedback loops as bill said and bill and steven pounding this for six years correctly there are these feedback loops reaching the capital markets in the real world and if you want to improve the return of the markets you've got to deal with the real world systems so I think these two books fit great together I call Steve and bill's book the how how to do it and our book the why why you should do it so and they overlap obviously they're not just how we're not just why but primarily the how and the why but thank you again thank you for having me before we get into some more specificity with respect to how you might think about application and applicability and what are the rules that potentially prevent folks from implementing some of these ideas Renee Kelly and Lisa will go to you in a second but bill do you want to just respond to some of what you've heard as well momentarily yeah absolutely so so I I want to thank John for so if Steve Prasad is responsible for half the gray hair that's on my head John McCormick is responsible for the other half because he was one of the early supporters of tip and and all a lot of the ideas are definitely attributable to him as well I want to just point out something with the folks that we invited to be discussing here and obviously with Jim and John joining us is what you're seeing is it kind of speaks to this kind of mosaic of activity that has to occur and mosaic of thinking that has to occur so what you have is you have Jim and John who taking years of experience are directly challenging MPT and the boundaries of it you have an asset owner and Renee Manley who is struggling with thinking through it's like what is the what are the many ways that as an asset owner you can use your influence to exert this kind of change and the struggles and opportunities of actually kind of operating through those various windows you have a manager in Lisa who is looking at a particular asset class and kind of understanding the functional utility of that asset class and and the real the kind of purpose it was initially designed to affect in society that's huge and and potentials long work and kind of be a little bit place-based and kind of the different complexity of investments that go into that that's another example of a kind of system a couple of system level strategies that we talk about and then finally you have Kelly who brings in this kind of OCIO perspective right and she focused in on beliefs a lot and kind of how do you help the client you know articulate this better and start to think about this more holistically and I think that was really important for one of the things that we wanted to kind of demonstrate here was that this really is it's not just about what big institutional asset owners can and should do it's really about what that entire ecosystem of players needs to be doing to really be able to move us along collectively because at the end of the day the only way we say this so often the only way we're going to get to systems change is through collective action so it's going to take everybody kind of seeing their own way into this so hopefully that's apparent with everybody listening in so I just thank everybody for the comments and can't wait to hear yeah and to get more specific I think is where we're going to go next and we'll begin with you Lisa then we'll turn to Kelly and then Renee when we talk about how this might be applied in your own work in your own sector what is is there anything in specific that you think is the messaging that you want to advance particularly for folks like you who look like you as Bill just described kind of the very distinct roles that each of you have in the community Lisa we'll go with you first yeah I mean as owners as I start where I started where as owners of real estate we are firmly embedded in all of these systems and also so much subject to a lot of the pitfalls of modern portfolio theory so as I think about how we advance change in real estate and sort of I think of real estate as if you will the social production of you know it's the social manifestation in the built environment I think there's two things that are critical one internal and one external and the external one is to really have big investors asking these questions our investors are our largest investors our pension funds public and private pension funds like Renee but increasingly they're also private wealth investors and so to have large investors like those asking these questions of us I think pushes us to go further and then you know as an asset owner an allocator I also think that it's important that we look internally not just about our investment selection but also about how we manage these investments that's really in real estate how we impact people's lives when we own real estate when we operate real estate how are we affecting people's lives and how are we thinking about this not just the individual properties but the systems that affect people's lives and how we interact with those so those are you know the systems of labor the systems of you know raw materials production the systems of industry as well as things like transportation and environment and environmental justice and those are things internally that for me I'm always thinking about where do we find the nexus of improving those systems improving the outcomes for people in those systems but also generating the kinds of returns and performance of the investment across the market cycle that our investors expect Yeah, Monique I think you wanted me to go next so I'll jump in Yeah, there are three things that really to get practical about this that I think are takeaways The first is we talked about this large asset owners having catalytic investment in their allocations that really allow them to push the envelope in terms of making statements with the capital that they're moving Bill said that you know you can't do this alone it takes all actors in the system that there's a very specific intention and we're seeing this much more with the events of 2020 and the events of Sunday where people are trying to be much more catalytic in letting their capital speak our firm has a statement that says capital creates change and we're seeing that at a much different level and so for those particular actors thinking through how the capital is speaking and being catalytic in very particular asset classes private equity venture other things that can be catalytic but this idea of collective action where not just very large institutional investors but private wealth investors of all sizes can actually collectively move a particular idea forward through collective action is really critical and we're seeing a lot of that from our individual investors who have interests in wanting to know how to really activate portfolios in a way that aligns to their value and belief systems right and that collective action has actually been resonant in grant making organizations and other organizations that have had to articulate what their values and their outcomes from a community perspective what they want them to be and now these books and these thoughts are forcing investors to start to try to articulate that point and quite frankly it will be organizations like TIPP and others who can help facilitate with clients you know crystallizing what their beliefs and values are so that they can be incorporated into investments and finally I have to come back to this issue of risk because we talk about it so much and yet we think we have some control and portfolio construction about how to mitigate risk about risk adjusted returns and we have seen one of the most volatile periods in capital markets in the last you know 12 to 18 months and to John's point it does create concern and it creates opportunity and so the question then is how do we construct actions that will take become opportunities for our clients through risk adjusted returns or through taking advantage of volatility in the capital markets I mean it is it is a concept that is very real and that separates the wheat from the chaff in my business of those who want to take on that kind of detailed construction I thank you Kelly and I will let you close out this segment and we have about nine minutes left so I will do what is coming next so that folks can be braced for it I am going to ask each of the speakers everyone who is here your book title for what is next Bill I know that probably just gave you PTSD to even ask but it does not have to be something that you are really working on but what would your book be and I will just give a foreshadowing that mine is a children's book title so you can be expansive in your thoughts but Renee I will let you kind of share a little bit about how you and the pension funded industry are really going to think about how you talking about behavioral change and actual ways of practice change that kind of Kelly began to allude to yeah so one of the things we wonder about is how embedded the desire for structural and systemic change is within the kind of the investment offices or industry are we know that within the plan participants and with the trustees I want we wonder you know kind of if the structures kind of lend itself to the structural change that we see that we want to see and whether the competencies are there and so that's something that we're really concerned about I think that for SCIU I would say that we're kind of practice this life you know like we've committed for the past six years on diversity and human capital and you know and we have tried to implement and practice this by going large and trying to you know really look at how we create structural change address you know systemic issues specifically around diversity and equity and some around human capital and you know we think that we are making it a different we believe that we're making it different but when you get half the distance like you know 40 percent of boards are not monitoring you know diversity the statistics you know that causes concern and that's why you know we have to have the type of kind of structural systemic approach to these issues you know that's the only thing that's going to create the type of change and we have to have the large asset owners weigh in and I my favorite saying the shareholder season is an intent does not equal impact and so one of the things that we saw you know last summer was a lot of organizations who made a lot of commitments and promises that they were and have not been able to execute on and you know no one's here for that we have to create structural change that is sustainable because these issues are material and they're not going away and so that's just one example that you know I just like to bring up in terms of my book my book title would probably be something like from the streets to the suites or something like that I like it you know I'm in the sea suites kind of like that so I guess that's a that's a autobiography that's a autobiography yeah we'll figure out who is going to be cast to pay you to play you in my Iopic Kelly your book title be Kelly you might be muted yeah Kelly I got it so my book title is actually going to be impact investing because I actually think what we're trying to do is impact investing not impact investing but we need to impact investing and that's the title of the next book and I think that these two books are our feeder books to my book on impact investing because you all are trying to impact investing in the way that we invest that's great I want to Kelly I want to pick up on something that you said and maybe this is the fourth book in the series after impact investing and I think the title of the book is risky business I want yes you guys to write about reframing risk and return because I think we've got it wrong and this is all kind of leading up to that Kelly I love it good morning the original title of the book is anyone's written a book knows you don't control the title of the publisher the initial title of our book was actually included risk so yes it's all about risk and Jim what would be your next yeah I've written five or six books I think I'm done with books but I do have a couple of articles in mind one is something that I've talked I've thought about for six months haven't done anything on but I've got a title for it and the good thing about writing an article is you actually can control the title it's common ownership and the ownership of the commons and if people are familiar with the debate and the sec and the legal issues of common ownership I think it's a big deal in the Biden administration it's sort of not taken first place but clearly under Trump and from the right it was it was not going away that said I think there's some really real and interesting issues there and did relate actually to one of the questions or a couple about universal ownership not going to go into that now but it does play on that and the and the issue of course what is the ownership of the commons the other thing I'm really interested in it's not something I'm writing but it's something I follow and might want to write about is a number of projects which again talk about impacts but it talk about it's the quantification of externality impacts of product and service creation right down the supply chain line in terms of what that means for the functioning of a broader economy around suboptimal or non suboptimal performance and I think there's some really interesting work that has just begun on that in a very serious way it's a huge project but it's interesting stuff so no books carry what would your book title be ooh uh tough my daughter is very into graphic novels right now so I think I would take that tact and it would be something like what's your system I like it and for those who are wondering what my book title would be I actually have a manuscript drafted and the children's book title my son it's going to be two on Saturday is our is are you my cutie patootie so that said um Bill Jim John I'll turn it over to you thank you we have captured all of the questions and comments in the chat apologies that we couldn't we see the time is tight and such brilliance was here so we wanted to have a chance to share but we will maybe address them directly to you maybe in a blog post layer as a collective and we'll try to make sure that we do continue to engage in these topics because I think it's important and then this is I think we just have the fun I think we just lost Monique but I think she was just saying thank you to everybody for joining us and once again the so cap for hosting all the discussants attendees really means a lot guys so thank you