 A week before protests and riots broke out in American cities as a response to the police killing of George Floyd, demonstrators were also out in the streets of Hong Kong. Police misconduct is also a major concern in Hong Kong, and activists are demanding an independent investigation into the city's once world-renowned police force for its brutal treatment of the demonstrators. The Hong Kong protests, which first flared up in the fall of 2019, have also at times turned violent, with property damage and attacks on innocent bystanders. Triggered by the gruesome video of Floyd's murder, the US protests are about the mistreatment of black Americans by law enforcement, while in Hong Kong the issue is whether or not this bastion of political and economic freedom will maintain its autonomy from the authoritarian Chinese state. The inciting incident last fall was the introduction of an extradition law that allowed the Chinese to transfer fugitives to the mainland. And now China's passage of a national security law that criminalizes the so-called subversion of state power has incited the latest round of unrest. Prompting Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to tell Congress that Beijing's actions mean that Hong Kong is no longer autonomous from China, putting an end to the one-country-two systems that was established in 1997 when the UK relinquished control of its former colony. On May 29, President Trump announced that Hong Kong's special partner trading status would be revoked and that sanctions are forthcoming. China has replaced its promised formula of one country, two systems with one country, one system. Therefore, I am directing my administration to begin the process of eliminating policy exemptions that give Hong Kong different and special treatment. Days before China's National People's Congress rubber-stamped the new law, I interviewed Charles Mock, a Hong Kong legislator representing the tech sector, who's part of a pro-democracy coalition to discuss the impact of the new law and what will happen if China sends its own police force into the city to go head-to-head with protesters. It's now been more than a year out since the latest protest movement began. What is the on-the-ground feeling in Hong Kong right now? So a lot of frustration on the one hand and a lot of anger and much of it because of the lack of response from the government for the whole year with all these apparent and obvious police brutality, violations and so on going uninvestigated and the government refusing to negotiate with us, it is after all the majority view in Hong Kong for more than two decades that we should have a more democratic system. We're actually moving farther away from it. Recently, we had this coronavirus concerns and outbreak, but that is pretty much fortunate for ourselves and for the cooperation of our citizens. Much of it is under control and we haven't had new cases for quite a while, local cases. So in that sense, the government cannot use the virus control as an excuse to tell us, don't go out, don't have protests and even any gathering and so on. So some people really are not coming out as before, but I think this doesn't mean that people are giving up, they are using other means, they are turning to other possible alternatives, just like in last November when a huge number of people, voters turned out was unexpected, unprecedented voter turnout in our district level election where our pro-democracy candidates got 80, more than 80% of the seats at the time. So you could see that people are using different means. What exactly would the national security law which is being proposed in Beijing have on Hong Kong? So they are going to impose a law that would be a national law, but it's about Hong Kong and it will be superimposed on Hong Kong. We are expecting it to be very draconian. There are going to be a lot of conflicts between the kind of Chinese law system with the common law system that we have been practicing in Hong Kong, continue to practice after the handover that the global business community would consider to be more accommodating and reasonable. So this is going to be very problematic in terms of even some of the terms that were being proposed would mean that the central government can send their national security people, their officers to Hong Kong to execute the law. That would mean that basically it's not just the Hong Kong police that we are going to be confronting. It would be mainland officers. And think about that. What is national security? It doesn't mean shouting one slogan that the government or central government doesn't like. Some people have said that we could even be saying something against our local Hong Kong government and that would be considered as part of the regime of China. So that would be illegal as well. The central government wanted to de-escalate the situation rather than amp it up. What are some measures that you think they could realistically take at this point? A thorough investigation and accountability on our own government, that is I think absolutely the first step. And also there's got to be more liberalization in terms of talking about how to give Hong Kong people more autonomy in terms of a democratic election. But when I say this, the reality is the central government has already basically sent no to all these things over the last year and moving farther and farther away by clamping down and saying that you cannot even ask for those things. If you do, then we consider you to be a separatist or consider you to be calling for independence, which I think most people in Hong Kong, including myself, are only talking about truly implementing the One Country Two System that we were promised. The unfortunate thing is I think the solution is there. But I cannot confidently say that the central government is going to take up these steps because the reality is the further and the longer that this is dragged on and the further they move to the other side of using draconian and drastic measures is becoming more and more difficult for them to move back to the central, to the center, to try to take these more liberal and open-minded steps that could have solved the problem a long time ago. Mock was one of several legislators involved in a disagreement over committee leadership that devolved into a physical altercation on the floor of the legislature on May 17th, resulting in the majority of pro-democracy legislators, including Mock, being escorted off the floor by security. Mock says this amounted to another power grab by the pro-Beijing coalition, which because of the peculiarities of Hong Kong's electoral system holds majority power in the legislature despite drawing fewer votes from the public. The situation right now is we are trying to use every which way we can to try to not let them legitimize this whole process, but it's going to become more and more difficult because the whole power, the whole infrastructure apparatus is being controlled by the establishment. Would you imagine the security force in the Congress holding the minority members, like let's say in this case the Republicans in the House or the other way around the Democrats in the Senate, because they are trying to filibuster have you ever seen the security or the Congress police or whatever, how parliament police come out to help the chairman take away the other elected members? As that grip seems to continue to tighten to the degree that the minority party is now being forcibly removed from the legislature for these unconventional... In order for something to pass. How does that affect you personally? How do you think about your position in this party as someone who's obviously been willing to speak out and be critical? Do you ever worry about that? Do you ever come under any sort of surveillance or anything of that nature? Well, I have to say that I think people in Hong Kong not just us in the legislature, but a lot of people, even common citizens are becoming very concerned about surveillance. I mean, ever since last year, there were a lot of concerns about all these cameras all over the street because of surveillance cameras that were supposedly used for traffic control, but then they might be high definition and they might be doing facial recognition of people, whether you joined the protest or where you were at whatever time. A lot of concerns about these kinds of surveillance issues and over the last couple of days, ever since the announcement by the central government of this national security law, I think there's a huge concern of a lot of people here that the internet, for example, and the communications over the internet will be surveillance, will be watch over, and suddenly everybody wants to install their own VPN, their own virtual private network to make sure that at least that part of the communication can be secure. A lot of misconception, I have to say technically, but still a lot of people are afraid and they are resorting to these means to try to protect themselves. As for me personally, I think we're in this position, we have to stand for what we believe in and we're still just trying to make sure that we're doing the right thing, the best thing for Hong Kong. We don't want to see everything being destroyed. And we're worried as you started off saying that some people are asking, is this going to be the end of Hong Kong or the end of one country, two system? And the more you look at it, the more it's like it, that this is going to be the end, because how do you turn it back, especially for regime like Beijing? They are so concerned about the losing face or they've said it, that they have to do it. So how could they rescind? That is the big question. We obviously would want to make sure that we urge them in every way we can. Protesters may have their own way. We try other ways, but at least we are trying to send the same message, and I hope to the international community as well, that if this happens, it will hurt everyone. It will hurt Hong Kong. It will hurt everyone. And it is an international city. It will hurt every country around the world. And if every country around the world stood by for too long, things could lose control. And we're seeing it since last year. I would have hoped that there would be more actions locally or in China or the world over Hong Kong a year ago. And maybe it could have been better, but I don't know. I mean, right now, the situation is just getting worse and worse. Well, what are you hoping for from the world? Because everyone is looking at China right now, it being the epicenter of the outbreak, the way that was handled, the relationship with the World Health Organization, Hong Kong, obviously, surprisingly to a lot of people has handled it incredibly well. And you've had very few deaths from coronavirus there, as far as I understand. Five, I think. Five. So there's been some belligerent statements coming out of our politicians from Mike Pompeo and Trump himself. What are your worries about what could happen internationally, and what do you hope the global community in the United States in particular does in this situation? Well, I don't want to be here telling other governments what to do, but I think it should be legitimate concerns for all governments, for especially an international city like Hong Kong. Because we're after all a financial center, we're a hub for many important business activities, whether it be with not just China, but the rest of Asia. It's hugely important for global interest. And think about this. If we used to say that this is Hong Kong is one of the three top trading markets in the world after London and New York, if it's gone down, it's not easily going to be replaced by somebody else. It would have huge implications. And I think I hope that people would also look at it in such a way that Hong Kong is also a city with 7 million people, 7 or 8 million people. And we have a lot of human assets over here, in addition to the financial assets that people, maybe some foreign companies, foreign interests, are trying to pull out some of these financial interests. But there are also a lot of people over here. And we're talking a lot of people here in Hong Kong that are going to be subjected to a regime or a kind of rule that they were not expecting when we were handed over to China. So what do we do about these human assets? Are we just saying that too bad? We didn't expect this to happen, that we trusted the Chinese government 20 or more than 20 years ago, 30 years ago, with this joint declaration and so on. And now, what too bad? Or what are you going to do about these people, let alone the economic interests? So I think that is the question that the global community has to think about. I don't want to be here telling them what to do. And obviously, you saw that there were different politicians in different countries making different statements, Pompeo or over the last couple of days. I think the National Security Advisor, O'Brien, also had something to say. So I think they would consider their options from your interest point of view. But I think I hope that they would also think about it from the interest and the point of view from the people here in Hong Kong, in addition to the global US-China relationship backdrop. How do you expect this to play out for you and for Hong Kong over the next few years? It's very difficult to predict. But I think the lesson since last year in Hong Kong is that we probably have to prepare for the worst. Because if you asked me two months ago or even two weeks ago, if we expected this, a sudden and abrupt announcement, saying that they will legislate in Beijing and overruling Hong Kong, I would still be saying, is it going to happen? I doubt it. If you asked me two weeks ago, so things are getting worse and worse. Out of, I would say, really out of ours, my or many people's, most people's expectation. So I think looking forward, we have to be prepared for the worst. Like I said, the legislation of the bill in Beijing, and then they working out the details, and then maybe pretty soon, and actually they've said it in Beijing, that they would probably enact and execute on the law possibly to arrest a few people, or I don't know what the few means, some people, to make an example to make sure that if they legislate the law, if they don't use it, what's the point, right? So to a dictatorship, obviously they will do that. So they will use the law, they'll put some people in jail, whether they be in jail in Hong Kong or sent back to China, we don't know. And it will get worse. Some people will look at the September election of our legislature. My view is that, and I think the majority view here, the worry is that they will use a lot of means to disqualify, to manipulate the result of the election, which means that if they think that you are going to get elected, they may just disqualify you from standing from the beginning. And then if some other people still get elected, and there are too many of us, they will disqualify you so that to make sure, which they have been doing in the last, in this term currently. And so even though we are talking about our camp, it has been advocating voter registration and all that to tell people that we need to win the majority. But deep down, if you ask me, my worry is that I'm sure Beijing is not going to let it happen. So, but we still have to tell the people to vote, right? This only means they have to express themselves. Now, but the worry is that we are going to win the majority, but they will disqualify us during nomination and after the election to make sure that we are still a small minority in order to continue to make sure the legislature is a rubber stamp. So, my outlook, my expectation on that, which is going to be just a few months down the road for us, my view is pretty dark on that. I mean, how worried are you about this turning like seriously violence given there's a very entrenched resistance to this? And I'm just imagining the prospect of China sending their own, you know, police force. Yeah, police. Yeah, that's a big worry because there are obviously a bunch of very agitated and aggressive and frustrated young people among the protesters that are using relatively more violent tactics in Hong Kong in the last couple months or even yesterday. And my biggest worry is that this will be definitely used as an excuse by the authority to turn up the heat again. In such a situation, I think any reasonable liberal government would understand that, you know, pure force would not be the solution. They are, you know, if there's a riot, I mean, do you send even in the US in Los Angeles, right? Do you send even more troops to put everybody in jail? Does that solve the problem? Your experience told you that there are other ways to really do it to resolve the problem, right? But in here, I am worried that these kinds of so-called violence on the side of the protesters, it's just going to give them more excuse to legislate in even more draconian way, to enforce in even more draconian ways, to try to send in mainland forces to execute in Hong Kong, whether it be to arrest people or to act against the protesters and so on. So my worry is that it's going to get worse. So I think I do hope that the Western audience will look at this in such a way that, you know, think about what's the cost of the whole conflict and not just individual acts of violence, which we don't want to see. But unfortunately, if the two sides are going to be put farther and farther apart, we have to ask for those people who are in an authority position, the government, can you just simply blame the people for being violent? I mean, if you put it in the context of many of these conflicts or even riots in the US, you would have probably hopefully come to the same conclusion. It must be something wrong that the government has been doing and not just blaming the people who may have conducted acts of violence. It must be the government also or even the root of the blame. Yeah, it didn't come from nowhere. That's for sure. And I think our audience understands that and it's following this with great interest. And I really appreciate you filling us in and giving us this kind of on the ground report. It was very insightful. So thank you for your time. Thank you.