 a lot of fun, because we're asking the question, I should say, are you an influential nonprofit? And this is a big, big issue for so many of us. If we haven't met yet, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. My intrepid co-host, Jared Ransom, is going to be off for a couple of days. We'll be rejoined by her next week. Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors who are with us day in, day out as we move into year three of the non-profit show, which blows my mind to say that. But yes, we're moving in to year three, 450 plus episodes. I'm giving you a prom-com shake for that right now. Whoa, that's amazing. Thank you, Mary Ann. That's the best. And you know what? If you missed our live episode, you can see us on Roku, YouTube TV. I should just say YouTube, Amazon Fire TV, Vimeo, speak into your smart speaker and say the non-profit show, and it will freakishly come up. Okay, Mary Ann Dersh, you are back with us. Woo-hoo, CEO. I should say Chief Excitement Officer. That's why I sit so close to Palm Homs. Well, that's the way to be. That's definitely the way to be. Here's Mary Ann's communicating how to get all to Mary Ann. But okay, let's dive into it because we're talking about influence. And in the green room, you were giving us your idea of what influence means. So if you could start there and then talk to us about what the traits are. Yeah. So first, I'll say influence is like not, I feel like the word gets kind of a bad wrap lately. You know, it's like I'm an influencer, which feels like, you know, can feel a little shallow or a little conniving. And so then influence my definition and the definition that I work with is getting people you have no authority over to do what you want them to do. And so in the nonprofit space, we have so many people we have no authority over that we need them to do things. And easily it's the ability to easily enroll people in your vision. And a lot of times in our world, we kind of feel alone. You know, like we're carrying this organization on our backs and trudging through. But the traits of an influential nonprofit is that that is no longer the story that you feel that connected and the support of a community. And you feel that, you know, you are not in it alone that you have a army of support around you. You know, Marianne, that's a fascinating thing to frame it that way. And I would have never framed it up that way myself. But it seems to me that that isolation and that sense probably leads to burnout, it leads to job dissatisfaction. And think about when you are supported and engaged in that way of being like, yeah, we're in a team, we're going through this together. It allows you to move through tougher times. I mean, so it's a healthier thing. 100%. Like, and like the organizations that I work with, you know, during COVID, they felt the love from their board, they felt the love from their donors, they, they asked and God, you know, that's the thing about influences. When you have influence, you can easily ask for and receive what you want. And a lot of times, you know, with that asking, you know, asking for money, asking for support, like in that can feel really overwhelming. And so mastering the art of influence is being able to easily ask for what you want and then and have people respond. And you're right, you know, that, that I think isolation is a big issue for us, like for the community in general. And, you know, and the ability to then have that feel that support, like that is so like, like the quote I use all the time is, we don't give from the depths of the well, we give from the overflow. And a lot of people are giving from, that's a roomy quote, right? Like a lot of people are giving from the depths of the well and the influence when you have influence, you're giving from an overflow, you're giving from this energy rich place. Wow. Okay. I love this concept because it seems to me, Mary Ann, this is almost like a foundational approach to how we manage our nonprofits, how we look at our nonprofits, how we look at our relationships with staff, community donors, leadership and all that. But the bigger question is maybe how do we get there? How do we build this, this influence when we now understand it with a different lens, that it's not manipulative? Yes. Right. So that again, I'll start with what it's not, which is we don't convince, push, pitch, sell, that's not, that's not what we do. And we've been taught, this is how you get money, you have to pitch, you have to convince. And that actually causes people to get defensive and push back. And so the influence, let me just say this before I get into the how, it's sort of like one of the things I say a lot is people hate to be sold, but they love to buy. And what I mean is I didn't want to be sold because that's pressure. And then you get defensive. And when you get defensive, you go back here. And when you go back here into your instinct, into the base of your neck, the back of your brain, then your, your ability to have reasonable thoughts to take into information decreases. It diminishes exponentially. So we want to keep people open and open to new information. And that's by like, by buying, they're choosing, right? They're choosing every step. You know, and go ahead, what are you going to say? No, I love that you said that because I can put, I can see that with the donor. Writing the check might not be the best part or making the commitment, but then the engagement and the joy of, as they say, the joy of philanthropy, you know, that you have invested in that is where it's at. I've never heard anyone say it that way. Yeah, you're good for us. Yeah, you're welcome. And you're right. You know, people really don't talk about this in a sense of like, you talked about it being the foundation. And that's why I do this work is because what I've seen over so many years is like, how come some messaging and marketing work for some organizations and dinner for others, you know what I mean? It was all good stuff. But why would it stick in some places and that and others? And it was really around their internal communication. Because if you're not in turn and communicating effectively internally, you won't be able to do it externally. And I, and so my work started to move more and more towards internal communication. And, and, and my internal communication, how do you get better internal communication? You develop better leaders, leaders to yourself and to each other. So in the sense of being, how to be an influential nonprofit is really turning the lens to yourself. Right. And when I say turning lens to yourself, say, okay, I'm, I, our habit, I feel like this is what I've seen is to say, okay, if only my board would do this, if only my donors would do this, right. And then I would be happy or I would be successful when, when influence turns the lens to you and say, okay, how am I contributing to this? How can I, right? Because I, I can't expect other people to show up differently unless I'm willing to show up different. Right. I want to, I raise my game first, right. And influence for me, it's all about attraction, right. Like we're all master attractors. This is what I truly believe we're all master attractors, whatever we put out is exactly what we get back. And so you can't put the same thing out and expect a different thing back. So I just teach people really how to do it is we're willing to send out exactly what we want back. And that's how we're going to get it. So if we want, you know, support, we need to be supportive. Does that make sense? Is this? Yeah. And I think it's, it's for me, it's modeling. I think it's, it's like, and this is going to sound really crass, but it's like, you know, going to the doctor and the doctor says, you need to stop eating potato chips and stop smoking and stop drinking. And then you see them outside in the parking lot with a bag of potato chips, a cocktail and smoking, which is like, you know, that's extreme. But do you know how I'm hearing it? Is it, you got to walk the walk and, and to look internally and say, what does that mean? Maybe that's the starting point. That is, I can't believe you said that, that is so perfect because that is one of the things about alignment, right? Being in alignment means what you say and what you do are as close as possible. And when you see that doctor, right in the parking lot, like, don't be like it, and then they're doing it like, wait, come on. So the alignment is what I say and what I do is close as possible. And that builds trust and trust is the foundation of anything, including influence. And, you know, sometimes our organizations will say, you know, we support strong families. Well, like, yeah, our clients, but then we're working our staff so hard that they can't take care of their families. That's not that right. Like it's alignment is we've support strong families all across, not just these families. And that's what sometimes the culture can be crazy making because you're like, wait, why doesn't that sit well with me? Oh, okay, that we're out of alignment. Because what we say, what we do aren't as close as possible. So what can we do to put ourselves in into alignment? And we were talking earlier about like, like showing up with confidence. But that's how we create the confidence is like, I understand who I am as a person, as a leader, and as an organization and the value that I bring. That's the like, that's like the first step to influence. You know, I love it. And I think what you just said is a magical way to reframe this, because I think a lot, I think in the nonprofit sector, there's a lot of judgment, you know, and you could talk about that from the, you know, white savior approach to I'm going to help those people on the other side of the tracks to all these things. And I think you're right. I think that's also part of this great resignation where you do have staff, but they're burnt out and they're like, what the heck, you know, we talk about these mental health issues and behavioral issues, but it's only really for our clients and not for our teams. Yes. But I love that you brought that up. That's fascinating to me. And that's another aspect of how to build influence is like you were saying, like, like you were saying, being the model, right? Like, I'm the model for the change I seek. And I, in our culture, and especially in the nonprofit, we have to sacrifice ourselves to make other people happy. When really the opposite is true, we when the more that we care for ourselves and then and then we then we become the model and and again, because what you put out is what you get back. And so we become the model and we become the thing that people gravitate to and want to be around. And and then that becomes very powerful. And it's all about like the work I do, you know, is like that roomy quote, you know, we want to give from the overflow, not the depths of our well and the influence, right, that's you have that comes from that overflow. And who I mean, wouldn't you rather be a donor to an organization that's energy rich and comes from the overflow and you feel connected and positive, not that bad things don't happen. I'm not saying this is not rainbows and uniforms. I'm just saying like, but like their approach and their culture is one of possibility and problem solving and boldness. And that's what we want, you know, like, Oh, yeah, I want that. Right, that's what I'm saying. Like, are the major law of our universe is like attracts like, you know, that's that's the end. So if if if we use that, okay, so that's influence like, what am I putting out there? Well, okay, so what else can I put out to get back what I really want? And that's that's the truth. And it's not about changing other people. It's starting with yourself. Wow. Okay, this is like, I'm just so intrigued by this because I love this conversation. I think it's the right time of the year to have this conversation. You know, Marianne, sometimes with a nonprofit show, we get these amazing gas and concepts that come through. But at some points, especially towards the end of the year, I know that with my team, I'll say, you know what, this is going to be a topic that frustrates people because they're at the end of the year. And they're trying to get much and it's it's going to be it's not going to be a positive, it's going to be a negative. But what I love your what you're saying is that this is the time to start that this is the time to start working on this and refining this mentality and this approach, so that as you we get into that heavy season and we're ending, you know, we're moving through the quarters of the year, that we're more we're armed, you know, we're better for it. Let me say something that's going to blow your mind. Okay. I'm going to get I'm going to get like, hold on. Okay. So time is a really an illusion and all time lives in our head. The past and the future live in our head. Really the only thing the only thing we have is this present moment. And anytime we think of the past, like, you know, or worry for the future, we're in our head and we're not fully present. So really, all we have is this moment. So I look at it like this, if you want tomorrow, which never really comes, if you want tomorrow to be different, then you do something now. Right. Okay. That makes sense. Like, oh, and next month, I'm going to get I'm going to do this. Well, next month, right, you know, like, but okay, so what, like, like just really focusing in on this is like, there's no perfect time to make stuff better. Right. Like, oh, when we're going to like get all this organized, and then we're like, it's just like, this is all we have this moment. And so anytime I'm like, I'm like, ruminate like past regrets or future worries, that means I'm in my head and I'm not present. Okay, I needed to hear that. I told you I was going to blow your mind a little bit. I needed to hear that for many a reason. And I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right, especially in our sector. Yeah, I think it's really an important thing. Now, I want to ask you this next question, because our time is blown by and you've already given me so much to think about. But how do we know when we're successful with this concept? I mean, okay, what does it mean? I like, and I know we're like overly cautious or or centered on measurements and everything. But how do we intuitively maybe or we are we can actually measure this out of way? So I, you know, for me, it's, it's really about the mindset, either a scarcity or an abundant mindset. All of these concepts I'm talking to you about are rooted in abundance, that they're the infinite, the universe is infinite. And there is infinite amount of resources, and there's infinite amount of time, because like we see time is linear, and that's not really how time works. So if you can ground yourself into light, instead of coming to work every day, like, Oh my God, there's not enough time, there's not enough money to like, don't you come into the office and be like, you know, we feel safe and supported, we're excited. Yes, there's difficult times, and we know we can find a way through. That's that because we know that there's resources out there. And so much of our I feel like our fundraising gets hard, because we're afraid to release people that aren't the right fit, because we're afraid we won't find somebody else. But if I'm rooted in abundance, that means I can let you go because I know there's somebody better for me. And so like, so for me, that is the most basic shift is one from a scarcity mindset to an abundance, or, you know, like a scarcity fixed mindset, nothing will ever change, blah, blah, blah, to a growth mindset, an abundant mindset. And like, we may not exactly know how we're going to do this, but we know we can get it done. We just always, you know, and that that is that's when the possibilities open up and then the solutions kind of flow to you. And for me, I think the biggest thing is, and that's this is the thing you can measure is, is, is when the money, the people, the energy starts to flow to you, right, like, like people are coming to you saying, I want to be a part of you, tell me what's going on, that's when you know it starts working, it takes a little bit to get there. You know what I mean? There's some, it's a process and it takes some consistency and it takes a lot to turn the yacht around, you know, this isn't something that's going to happen. You know, you can start shifting and then, you know, and then the organization will slowly shift with you. And then you'll be like, wait, all of a sudden, oh, wait, we don't have to like go scrounge around, like people are coming to us and wow, and whoa, you know, and that's the organizations I work with, that's how they feel. I'm in 100%. It's really, it's an interesting thing. I learned this great, this phrase from that great Terri Axelrod, the woman who started raising more money. And she said, I remember learning this from her almost 20 years ago, you know, the concept of bless and release. If something doesn't work or it's not working for you, it's okay to say, all right, this isn't working. And so we're moving on. And that then you free yourself from. Yes. I just did a webinar yesterday and one of the things I taught them was like the 10 words to never, never tolerate again is let me think about it and get back to you. Because you've said it and I've said it and we don't mean it. And they don't mean it, but we're saying it to be polite because we don't want to say no or we don't want to feel rejected. And that's right. Like, so the bless and release, if I can go, you know what, hey, whatever you decide is totally okay. Because, yeah, and I can hold space where I would really love this gift. And then I can hold space for and if it's not the right fit, I'm okay. So there's, there's this, I think there's this for influence for me, it's this underlying value of trust, right? Like just trust that that that your donors will show trust that you're, you are supported trust that you have value. I love it. I think this has just been amazing. I want to talk about a few more things and our time is drawing close. I mean, it's shocking how fast this conversation has gone. First and foremost, here is Marianne's information. She's got a great website and you can get a lot of different information. And I think it's just so positive and supportive and giving for at least for me, Marianne, it, it almost articulated things that I kind of know intuitively, but I needed like a reframe or just like an injection of, yeah, this is the mentality. This is where I need to be. So check out MarianneDurch.com. I want to also make sure that everybody knows you have a podcast, the influential nonprofit, and you can find those on that site as well. So it seems to me, this is not a one and done Marianne, right? I mean, this is like a coaching kind of like reframe of our approach. And so I love that you have these tools that we can get back to because this is not a conversation that everybody's having. I know that's, that's, this is why I, that's what I saw the gap in the market was we were trying to solve mindset and communication issues with strategy, right? Like my board doesn't trust each other. Okay, let's get a plan. No, like, no, we need to build a trust. It's okay if they don't trust each other, like we can, but let's work on that and then we'll create a plan and we want to kind of avoid the drama or avoid difficult conversations. And that was, that's a high price to pay. And people just don't have the tools. And that's where I really saw the need was, you know, was to help people navigate and become better leaders of themselves and take more ownership of their own outcomes instead of looking outside for everyone else to solve it. I love it. And I think that's super magical. One other thing I want to dig into is this is such an interesting thing, the donor attraction forum. It's your second annual, it's coming up later in the month. Talk to us about that and share with us what this, how this looks and how it works. Yeah, so this is a two day event. I have gathered so many amazing people to talk about donor, attracting donors the different facets of it. So from using advocacy to attract donors to copy, how to, how to craft your copy and messaging, how you, how to use video to attract donors, you know, like, and I assembled out using email, like how to better because I think that's a big thing that nonprofits and that's a, that's an inexpensive tool that we could use so much more effectively to attract donors. So how do you, how do you bring people into your organization? And we're really going to cover a bunch of stuff. And I have just some wonderful speakers to just talk about different ways to attract donors. So the whole, the whole schedule is on there. It is a free to register. So there's no just go ahead and register, you can pop in. There's a VIP thing you can buy on the other side if you want to get the recordings, but it's totally free for you to pop in. I'll be speaking more in depth around influence and growing your influence as well. Like some of the concepts that I shared with you, I'm going to go in a little bit deeper, especially like around managing rejection and objections, you know, navigating those kinds of things, because one of the biggest things of influence is being able to ask for and receive what you want and need. And what keeps us from asking is because we're afraid we're going to hear no. So how do we navigate that? So I'm going to be talking about that. And it's just, I host it. So I'm there. It's not like, it's like you and I talking, right? Like, you know, and so I'm hosting it the whole time. So and I ask questions and you can ask questions. And it's just such a really, really cool experience. Great. And it's donorattractionforum.com slash Marianne. Yeah, look it out. I think it's a really great how you had a huge number for your first one, didn't you? Yeah, like we had 800 people registered. Our goal is 1500. We have almost 500 now. So and what, you know, we have Amy Fazio, Bethany Snyder, Michael Hoffman, you know, like all of these people that are experts in attracting donors in different areas. And I'm really excited about this. And I'll just share like this VIP package, which is which you can purchase. But after the event, I do a workshop with anybody who gets that. And we I teach you how to figure out what ideas will work best for your organization. So like, you can just take all of this in and then be like, okay, because sometimes we go to things we're like, Oh, I need to implement that. I need to implement that. And you're like, and then none of it happens. Right, right. Well, it becomes frustrating. I think too, when you go to something, and you get all excited, and then you go back to your team. And to your very point, you have to articulate an influence. Yes, people that weren't there to buy. And that's not like selling Oh, I hate with this really good idea. It's like, it's really about listening to their needs. And then whatever your idea is is going to meet their needs, which is different than how we typically learn to get our ideas across. Right, right. Oh, my gosh, well, this is going to be great. I'm going to be there watching and participating in that, that, you know, looking for new ideas. And I think, too, a big part of this courageous communication is that we need to be supported or reminded, I mean, you know, touch base with some of the things that we know, but we forget, or we lose our way. And so I think something like this is just so powerful to help you get on track, maybe even start a new track. So I'm going to be really excited to see how people respond and what what the feeling is, because we need to be doing better. And we can be doing better, but we need the tools. And I think this is one of them. So Marianne, thank you so much for doing this for our community. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh, it's been a lot of fun. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Sherry Ransom will be back with us next week. She's enjoying some time with her family in the South. So how cool is that? Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors. Without you, we would not be here having these great conversations as we have today with Marianne Durge. It's been a lot of fun, Marianne. And I suspect we're going to have you back on, because I love your energy. Oh, thank you. And I love the things that you say. I think it's really powerful. And it might be fun to have you back on in a bit to find out what your take is and the pulse of what you're seeing with these Q1 and Q2. Because it's a different time, but it's going to be the same time. We're going to be having to deal with things that we're dealing with. So best of luck. You're going to rock it by the end. Thank you. Oh, this is the end of the month. This was the fastest 30 minutes ever. I know. I know. Believe me, it goes fast for me, too. It really, really does. Hey, everybody, check out MarianneDurch.com. I think you're going to find a lot of really cool things we were talking about. And then, you know, see about finding some time to pop in to that two-day workshop. I think it's going to be a great value. And again, it's free. So that's when you register, you'll get the lineup so you can say, you know, oh, I really want to hear this person or this person. So you'll, you'll, you'll can figure out the timing and you can, yeah, pop in for a little or all, whatever you want to do. I love it. I love it. I love it. Well, hey everybody, we end every episode with this little mantra. Stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Thank you, Marianne. Thank you.