 to talk story with John Wahey. We have a most interesting conversation plan for all of you out there. I have with me two special guests. First of all, John Radcliffe. Thank you and welcome and Amasha Joyner. And they are united in an effort to bring about the understanding of and hopefully the passage of the ability to decide for yourself when it's your time to pass on. So the death with dignity issue or what's the way you best describe it? Well, this is really what this is about is giving people a choice at the end of their life when in fact they're going to die anyway. Right. This is a this is a situation where it's very for very few people who are suffering a terminal disease which is going to cause them agony and suffering and pain at the end. And there are several ways to get out of this life. Right. You know one of them. This is one. This is a better one because it's a it gives the individual patient. So it's kind of like choice and dignity. Yes. It's about choice. And I think 80% of the people of Hawaii support that. The number 80% doesn't the vast majority of people support death with dignity and compassion in the state of Hawaii. Well, I think that's that's that's an extremely serious and interesting subject. How did you come about to be an advocate for this issue? Well, in in June of 2014 I was diagnosed with terminal colon and liver cancer stage four cancer and given six months to live at that point. They said if you do everything we tell you to chemo or radiation or surgery or whatever it is or all three whatever you might make it 24 months. You know it could be so you know they gave you a range basically now it's been 30 months. Fantastic. Congratulations. And that's nice. But there is any question that I'm terminal. So how did I get into this? Well, the the people who are interested in this who tried to get it passed and in the past in the legislature came to me and and I said well as long as I'm able, you know, yes, I would I would love to be able to to stand up for this issue. I'm not a lobbyist for it. I'm more I guess I'm sort of a symbol. Well, that's that's that's interesting because you're known as one of Hawaii's best lobby lobbyists. Yeah, I'm retired and you're doing this as as a private citizen. Yeah. Well, my name is down as a lobbyist because it sure as hell if you don't put your name down into lobbyist somebody will come along but nobody's paying you. Okay, no, no. No, I know I've known Marsha. We have known each other for years. I'm not going to name the number of years. But I've always known you as being an activist. You're very interested in community affairs. You're very active with the Democratic Party, for example, mostly with a lot of progressive issues. And how did you get into this particular issue? I mean, it just seemed a natural cause that you get to choose who you marry, you get to choose where you go to school, you get to choose what movie you're going to watch, you get to choose everything. So why not choose at the end how you're going to leave because we're all going to go. But some people, like our dear friend here, who well, he's not going to die is that cancer is going to eat him up, you know. So when you have people like that, they should be allowed the opportunity, whatever that may be, you know. And I'm not going to say what is right and wrong for you or for you. For instance, if you're a Catholic and you chose to be Catholic and the Catholic Church says you don't do this, well, then obviously you don't do this. But why should that stop someone else who is not a Catholic from doing what works for them? But you're going to get into the conversation, John. Well, I forgot what I was going to say about you, but what Marcia got going on, I think, but what this is really all about also is not so much what it is, choice for a person like myself. But it's also the law, which has to do with doctors being able to prescribe. And currently the state of the law in Hawaii is that doctors cannot. Now in the past, the medical association has taken positions against death with dignity. Because they don't want to be responsible. The Hippocratic oath and so forth, and I understand all that. And that's good. Medical science has really gone beyond anything now that we've had in the past. Beyond the Hippocratic oath. They can keep me alive a lot longer than I can die with dignity, I guess. But the point is that this is for doctors so that they won't, when they see a situation in the offer, they give a prescription that they won't be put in jail for it. Well, let me ask you that, though, because you see, I just whenever you go in for a procedure or to your doctor for a visit, they'll hand you this sheet of paper. And it looks like they're giving you a choice because what it says is something about, I don't want to be on life support in these conditions I'm in. Or I want to be keeping me on forever. Or I think the third choice is that this person decide whether I should be or not. But it looks like you're giving a choice. And how is what's there now different from what you are at? Those are in situations where you would accidentally be put into a situation where you were going to be brain dead or something like that. And you say, no, I don't want to be brain dead. That's sort of a situation. I'm in a different situation altogether. I'm not going into the hospital on the off chance that I might end up dead. I'm going to an end of life celebration. Right. I'm going to. There's a certainty here. So why couldn't you just check the first box? Oh, that when you're in the hospital, at that point, don't put me on life support. Well, what's the difference with this and that situation? Let's assume that he wants to be at home. That he doesn't want to be in the hospital. Let's assume that he wants to be home with his wife and children and grandchildren. And that there is no way, no way, going to the hospital is not going to help. It's just, you know, it's not going to help. So why couldn't he choose to have the doctor write a prescription? You see, I think that's a major issue because it seems for some people that because if you're at home by yourself, you have no life support anyway, it's going to be natural, it's okay. And if you in the hospital and they remove the life support, I don't see the same objection by the people. But what you're advocating is actually a step more than that, which is getting somebody to actually assist. Not really. The doctor signs a prescription. I have to do it myself. But he has to take it himself. He has to. I can't be a cyst. The doctor can't assist. You're taking it for yourself. I can't. It has to be perceived. You have to be able to take pills. You know, and it's that particular point that interests me because when you really look at it, and I'm going to say this, and maybe countries might even be, you know, some people might even not like to hear it, but really when you take somebody off of life support, you're actually starving the person to death. Isn't that horrible? I think that's horrible. And that's a horrible way of dying. It is. It is. And so I, in fact, I actually had this discussion with one of my doctors. I said, I don't want to check this. No. Feed me as long as I can eat. I mean, put food in my body. This is a Hawaiian body, you know? You don't do that if we have an ethic at all. You keep eating until you, you know. But what this, at least from my point of view, seems to allow, which I find, you know, actually quite acceptable is the idea that I can actually not have to starve to death. I can actually die with dignity because it's my choice, however the procedure is. And I'm not going to be just removed from life support. I'm going to actually, you know, get something that'll put me to sleep. Yes. And you have to be of sound mind. You have to be able to take it yourself. Right. I can't administer it to grandma. You know, that's out. This has to be your choice, your doing. Nobody else can do it for you. Well, some people, so, well, actually, because of what I just described, is why I, along with Governor Yoshi, Governor Kaitano, Governor Abercrombie, and myself, signed actually an opinion letter to the newspapers. That's very helpful. It was great. Thank you. Supporting it, because to me, you really need a fourth option. You know, the option not to be starved, eat brain dead forever, or have somebody else choose for you. It's interesting also that there are now six or seven states, I think, six states that have this sort of statute. And there are 20 more, including Hawaii, that are up this year. So it is a movement which is not unique to Hawaii. It's certainly been sweeping the nation. And I expect you're going to see this become the law of the land eventually. I know that in those states where this has become the norm, people feel, they just feel that they're more comfortable, that they're not on edge, they're not anxious about the matter of dying this much. And even for people who are never going to ask for it, probably never will. They think it's nice that their state has it, because they might... Well, one of the objections up through this that I have heard are people who say that when you reach that point in life, you really are not as rational as you should be. Look at me. Well, what do you say? Look at me. Come on. He's a pretty rational, yeah. I mean, is there any grievance to that? Is there any studies or anything, though? No. That's a fallacy. I used to be a debate coach. There's about a million argumentative fallacies, red herrings that you can do. That's a red herring. That's a red herring. That's like, oh yeah, it's going to cause teenagers to commit suicide. Exactly. No. Is there any thing that you can think of in terms of the opposition against having this done? Opposition. That is rational. On the side of the fact that somebody says, I just believe that I shouldn't do this to myself. And if they believe that, then that event shouldn't. Absolutely. There are people that believe that God, exactly, is the only person that... Yeah. Yeah, even if... I don't... See, I happen to believe that God doesn't want me to start to death, but that's just me. The world of ours is in turmoil because of religion. Yes. No, we've been down that road with religion. Yeah, but basically, I do believe, though, that if you... There might be a religious objection, but because of belief, but outside of that, you have not come across anything. No. Doctors are now neutral, I think. Yeah, and I think the religious belief, like I stated before, if that is your belief, then by all means, that's what you do. You don't impose that on someone else. I can't tell him, no, you can't do that. Well, we are going to take a short break, and we're going to come back, both of you, to tell us what people can do about moving us all forward. Okay, great. So, thank you. Hey, has your signal just been taken over, or am I supposed to be here? This is Andrew, the security guy, your co-host on Hibachi Talk. Please join us every Friday on Think Tech Away. Hello, my name is Crystal. Let me tell you, my talk show, I'm all about health. It's healthy to talk about sex. It's healthy to talk about things that people don't talk about. It's healthy to discuss things that you think are unhealthy because you need to talk about it. So, I welcome you to watch Quok Talk and engage in some provocative discussions on things that do relate to healthy issues and have a well-balanced attitude in life. Join me. Aloha, my name is Josh Green. I serve as senator from the Big Island on the Kona side, and I'm also an emergency room physician. My program here on Think Tech is called Health Care in Hawaii. I'll have guests that should be interesting to you twice a month. We'll talk about issues that range from mental health care to drug addiction to our health care system and any challenges that we face here in Hawaii. We hope you'll join us. Again, thanks for supporting Think Tech. Governor, right there. Aloha, and welcome back to this most interesting conversation. Our guests today are John Radcliffe and Marsha Joyner, both who are advocates for dying with dignity, I guess we'll call it. Now, for those of you that want to participate in this conversation, you can call us at 415 871-2474. Now, here we are. We went through, you know, some of the reasons for doing this. Now, I am told that there's going to be a meeting at the legislature tomorrow. Something's happening at the legislature. From the forum tomorrow night at the state legislature in the auditorium, Marsha, at 530 to 7 or so. And it's being put on by our organization, compassion. What's the name of the organization? I'm trying to think. Compassion and choices. Yeah, not compassion and care. Compassion and choices. Right. And that organization is sponsoring it. Yeah. But everybody who wants to learn more about this should come down and have an opportunity to talk about it if they want to or listen to those people who are going to be able to speak tomorrow. And I understand they have some speakers lined up for tomorrow. And these are speakers that... They're all going to be in favor of... Yeah. But they have had experience somewhere with this... Right. One of them will be Dr. Chuck Miller, who is along with myself as a plaintiff in a suit against the state of Hawaii on the issue to determine the law. So you're suing the state again, right? I've never sued the state. Somebody's suing the state. Yeah. Some of your clients have. My clients are sued. Yes. Many times. Please tell us about the suit because... Yeah. Really? Yeah. Tell us. Well, the suit is there because both the most recent attorney general in the state of Hawaii have opined that medical doctors do not have the right to prescribe such a prescription that would... No. I'm going to understand some of what we're talking about. This is not Dr. Zagarian, right? No, no, no. The image that people have. No, no, no, no. And actually, he's a great pioneer. I'm not trying to knock him in the sense that... Kavarkian or something. Kavarkian. Yeah. No, no, no, no. He brought this. So it's not somebody going around. He's not asking doctors. One of the doctors you'll be speaking tomorrow will be Dr. Chuck Miller. And he is the former head of oncology at Trippler Hospital, and he's also been the head of oncology, I believe, at Kaiser Hospital. So, you know, he's retired now, but he is a long-standing oncologist expert in the field. So he'll be there. So what you're trying to do is not get doctors to actually administer anything. No. Why not open it up to pharmacists as well as doctors? I'm just curious. No, no, no, no. Doctors, medical doctors. This isn't something that's going to be... You know, it's going to be out there. This isn't death panels, Governor. This is a very specific sort of legislation for people who are terminally ill and in pain and suffering. With all kinds of safeguards to make sure... Many, many safeguards. Oh, my goodness, yes. Yeah. And as it moves through the legislature, everybody puts in another safeguard. Well, you know that. You know that, too. We hope that it'll be safeguarded in the... Well, you understand that. So, tomorrow night, and this is at 5 o'clock... 5.30. 5.30 at the auditorium. At the ceramic capital. So, all of you out there, really, this is your chance to really learn about the subject. And ask questions. Really? All of those... All of the questions you just asked, this is the time to ask those questions to satisfy yourself. Now, you know, my issue, of course, is different because he's a survivor. This is a real survivor. Well, he's a real hero. No, I mean, you've got... You know what he is. He's survived TV. Oh, gosh. He's survived polio and he's gonna survive this, too. Now, but if you look at the side effects on some of the medications that doctors prescribe every day and one of them says death, what in the world how can they say, well, we take a note not to do any harm. Some of those medications that they prescribe do harm. Do harm. Yes. Well, I had an earlier show with Medical Marijuana and we demonstrated that some of these medications are a lot worse. Worse. Then you can do... Now, I'm gonna change the subject about marijuana. No, no, we're not gonna get to that. No, no, one little thing. If you look at who owns the patent for marijuana from 1949, it's the U.S. government. Exactly. They've owned marijuana since 1949. Okay. Well, I wanna... I wanna get marijuana all together. But you're right. The medications that are being prescribed for people, look at the painkillers. My wife, you know, suffering had a problem broke her arm and she gets the prescribed she's in severe pain. They prescribed this painkiller which she faithfully tries to take but it has so many side effects. Oh, it's awful. Yeah, painkillers and all the morphine-centered drugs are very difficult. But, you know, when you're talking... Now, let's be very seriously talking about dying here. So, the fact is that the chemotherapy itself, the radiation itself, these things are rough. So, you know, I've had 40... 43, I believe, three-day infusions. I start my 44th next week Monday, a week from today. And then I'll be in this phase for another three weeks and then I'll go through that for another three weeks. And the side effects of the chemo are different at different times. So, for right now, the chemo is keeping the cancer at bay in my body. At some point, it could be tomorrow. It could be two years from now. It could be, I don't know. It could change. And my body will go into a quick decline. Always pays to be prepared, Governor. Yeah, which I think reinforces Marcia's point. And that is doctors are already prescribing as a necessity for health reasons, very dangerous things anyway. And so, but this will not... there's not your bills that you're supporting. There's not required them to administer. And as a matter of fact, in fact, the doctor has to agree that you're a terminal. So that's actually a protection. Two doctors. Okay, so two doctors will say you're a terminal and that's all they do. There's nothing else. One of them or the other may give you a prescription. But first, but doctors, this is a medically determined medical term. So this is not something, you know, we have some bills in the legislature. A number of bills in the legislature. I wouldn't get hung up on numbers at this point. But the issue is, what do they call it? Well, it's related to... Medical aid in dying. Related to medical aid in dying. Okay. Or death with dignity. Medical aid in dying. Medical aid in dying. Because, you know, I'm using that phrase. But it seems to be a little passe, actually. It seems to be a little old. I think I like this phrase a lot better. Death with dignity is the name of the Oregon organization that started the whole thing. So that's why people use it because it's the organization just like compassion and choices is the name of an organization. But that's the one that started in Oregon, so the name has just evolved. And John, you know the legislative process. Where are these bills right now? Those are in front of the health committee on both sides. And on the house side, that's representative Della Bellotti. And she's easy to find in the legislature. It's under B and it's going to be on that. Della Bellotti. Della Bellotti. D.B. Della. Not Della. And in the senate that's Senator Roslyn Baker. So would you recommend that people call these Well I don't recommend that they inundate the four members of the legislature but I do recommend that everybody try to let their legislators know best they can. Not only these two gentlemen but whoever represents that. I think you know every legislator needs to be touched on this one. And the speaker Suki made it one of his when he opened the legislature he said that was one of his priorities. So this is one of the speakers priorities. He was ever so kind to invite me down on the floor on opening days as a matter of fact which is a terrific honor and I'm very grateful. Well I'm glad he's sponsoring. In addition to the speaker is there any other champions in the legislature? On the senate side is Senator Lorraine Inoy and our new senator Carl Rhodes. Oh yes right Carl was the health chairman in the judiciary chairman. How does the judiciary take all of this? Judiciary is going to be fine with it. Both of them go to judiciary chairs so it's going to go to health and judiciary and that's it. So it's going to go to those two committees. Now there are a number of bills and go through the process. This is still only January but we need to get people to let I think the most important thing is get educated. Absolutely. Tell your legislators those you know personally whether you see them in the supermarket or anything like that tell them that that's the legislation which you know choices for the rector that's talking about what we need people to do this. I really am getting more acquainted with the issue. I mean I sort of went a lot you know understood it it didn't have any meaning until actually recently when you know when I was invited to sign the letter and then I actually really read up on it. I mean just me seem logical but emotionally I wasn't tied to it but no I am. I think the governor did a lot on this earlier. I think it was wonderful. All of your work was terrific but you know Haitano actually put a committee together did some stuff on it. Exactly. He was you know he was really active. And so again there's tomorrow evening what time was it again? 5.30 I guess. 5.30 at the auditorium. At the state capital auditorium I just want everybody out there to know that. And then we have these bills that they can talk to their legislators about. On the House side the chairman of the first committee that will be viewing this is Representative Bellatti. And I think the judiciary chairman is Scott Nishimoro. New chairman an excellent chair really looking forward to his work. Right. And you know of course in the senate skill agrarian. And with that I think this is a most moving issue and it I want everybody out there to at least know about it. Yeah. So again all of you take the opportunity to go and go to the workshop the auditorium at the state capital and talk about depth with dignity, talk about compassion. Medical aid in dying. Medical aid in dying? Yes. Be very grateful folks if you do that. We would start getting active on this. Right. So thank you very much and we look forward to you in us in two weeks.