 Please tell us a little bit about where you grew up and a little bit about your early years My early years, I divided between the Sunstake, the Bergen, the Bergmann, which is a sea side, more like a sea side, me as a baby. Whatever you feel comfortable sharing. So I grew up there, I studied there and then I consequently went to Amsterdam where I finished studying the print management. I started working with a positive family, which was the 70s, and in the 70s I felt the comfort of the energy of 100 people there. Also the technology was changing very fast, and as a creative person I started to immerse the printing company with another company. I stayed there for a year and then I started an advertising agency in a new field of marketing. I began an advertising agency and during those years, when working in advertising, I met a person. Sorry, we only have one mic so we have to pass it back and forth. Well, you were once married to a woman, you have a son, they're both very special to you. Please tell us a bit about them and how do they feel about your leather involvement? My son, my wife, yes, I have been married. Well, you see, I'm a prophet of the 60s and the 60s, then what is life now? Being gay, or when you grow up under present times and when you grow up in the 60s. So, to give an example, I studied in Amsterdam and I knew that was before I was married. I knew I had this inclination for men. You didn't know, and you heard things. You were looking. There were some bars apparently, and one was in the very, very south of here, which was a very dark street at the time. And you would go in, when you see pictures, for example, you go out in a suit and tie everybody, whether you were 16 or 18 or 20. So the pressure, not only the family, but also the pressure from friends was quite substantial. Because you felt somewhere that you were different, but there were a few who resisted and were rebellious. And of course you were envious, but some could do it and some could. What happened was that I was found out by my brother, who talked to my father, who talked to my mother. I was sent to North, of course, in those days. You want to please your parents and your doctors. Oh, that's just a phase that will change, which I wanted to believe. And then life has lots of sudden turns. It's partly, of course, you direct your life, but it depends what you choose. You may, but you don't have to write. As it happened, my best friend told me that he, his sister, was just 18, and he gave driver nursing to him for some reason. Anyway, next time I would come there, I came to the house. We go on and it's in Europe at an age where sexuality, any sexuality, is interesting. So that's why in the end I got married. And then, of course, it is like, it is like trying to put a lid on to boiling water. So first year, the time you notice that you start sort of lying or at least thinking about different things. So one evening we went out to Tysinski, the local cinema. And I had read a book of James Baldwin, which is a writer who partly thought a lot about this. So my mind was already serious about the book, and when we walked out of the cinema, I saw this book again. So I decided to tell him. Which was a pay, so first you say, bisexual. Which you don't know yourself, totally. Although I think you know, but you don't want to know. And we didn't divorce at that time, because we were both young, 27, 24. She wanted a child, I wanted a child, so a son was born. So there was no, then it was decided that it was better to separate, because at least she would have a chance to remarry being young. And which is what we did, but we always kept on telling her. So my son slept between two men, my first late husband. So when he was not even one year old, he slept with a plan. And when he was a student, he worked in the workshop of Rob, making anal balls with his best friend. So to talk about whether they accepted, there is no word. My now grandfather, his first child was named after my second late husband. He accepted as their, hopefully I don't shut this thing off. But I ended up creating a problem. When you were young, tell us about the first time you came. How did you come? Well I didn't know that I came. There was a lot of children. We did talk a lot, but I don't know what the question is. The company was a big complex. Somehow there was this empty room where there were two rings, and so I was playing with them. One day I was pushing myself off with my hands like fate. And I got this strange feeling. I thought, what's happening? Quite nice. So let's do it again, let's do it again, let's do it again. I was 11, I think I was 10 or whatever. Yeah. I think one thing a lot of people would like to know, particularly younger people, is how the scene was back when you came out. Would you please depict the answer then, Gay and Leather's scene for us, as you knew it coming out? I think there are probably other people who can do that better than I do. I think I want to, first of all, I think that Leather is not the word for it, or SM, it is a combination of things. And I also feel that when you lie, they say being gay is in the genes, and it's only in the same, of course, that's true. But I think it's also true that somehow DDSM, to use the term, is also somewhere in the genes. I don't think that when you are not into DDSM, or you have no affinity with it, that somebody can persuade you to do that. When they persuade you, then it must have been in you already, that's what I think it is. So, since I was young, I felt that not only that I was gay from boys, but there was this Leather that was interesting, and sort of what you might say, a kinky side of it. And when I dabbled in that, my nephew played, and I played with a school friend, of course we were not gay, we said we were not into these things, we were just playing. When I went to Amsterdam, and you discover the scene, you don't know where to go, it's a different time than what it is now. So you are searching for something, you don't know what you are totally exactly searching for. And I met this guy, who picked me up, because those were the days, he picked me up, we had sex in the car, and then he said, you want to drink? I know a good bar, you may even have been married, but he brought me to the Argos, which I later knew it was the Argos, I didn't know it was the Argos, so that was the Argos in the Andrew Hooks days. And we got into the bar, and then we got on the drink, and as I said, I've noticed that with people coming to Rock Young Cooper as well, they come into the shop, they look like this, and they go to the end of the shop, and then they walk straight out, and then three months later they come, and they choose things. And that's how I, that was my first contact, my first discovery with, what I didn't know was the letter, gone with the, if we may say, if we can describe it as that. So, we're talking about 7234, somewhere in that period, and the scene, it concentrated, the Argos was the center, I think, at that moment. No, not the Argos, what I soon found out because it was leaflets, the motor sport club, Amsterdam, seemed to be the fraternity, the secret society, the sort of, wow, that's where it is. So, it was a totally different, a totally different scene, from the scene we know now. Why was it so different? Well, the difference, the difference is that I think when you are young, and that's, that is, at any time, whether I was young, whether people were young in the 50s, or 60s, or 70s, or even people who are now 15, when you realize that you have a different feeling so that you are a bit different from other people, you search, and you don't know, especially in the 70s, and the 60s, you don't know where to go, so you follow people when you check, and then you come into something which you think this is it, and then hopefully you meet some responsible people when you play a group, and take you further, and with every encounter you learn at least most of the group. And that's, the difference between the 70s and the 60s and now is that you still don't know where to go, but you Google where to go. So there is no, no old man talks here, where you, you have this, you got sick, your stomach of tension, things like that, which I think nowadays young people will still get it, but there's much shorter period between, I want this always, I'm not the only one, and to find out that I'm also one of the people. When we were preparing for this chat and we were doing your pre-interviews and talking about topics, we spoke about the cultural differences between the European and the US leather scenes. They are very, very different. Would you please depict those for us? Still. Yeah, it's an interesting, and of course I cannot, I cannot prove this, it's my own assumption. Well, I think the Americans, they, they like to go to Europe because we play and we also have uniforms which is whether we admit it or not, why it is all developed. And where in, but in America or in the US, they are more theoretical, they organize themselves, like, it's almost like a handbook on how to be, how to be a good leatherman. And in Europe, we have less of that. So they think, because the uniforms are in Europe, that we are even more regimented than they find out that we play more without, well, without rules, but it is a different, it is a less structured life than the Americans, I think. And you can see that in clothing when we sell, Americans don't mind whether trousers are wide or whatever, they buy it. So clothing is less important for them where for us, if it is, if it doesn't, let me not start. There is a problem. So yes, there are cultural differences and I think that is the leather handbook has been written by an every-time center. Also, the lack of social security means that you need to stick together to survive far more in America than over here. It seems also a little bit. So yes, there are cultural differences. What's the biggest cultural difference you perceive? For us in Europe, all the porn videos came from America, so we thought there are all these hungry men and you can have sex in America, you have sex 24 hours a day. And when you come over there, and you go to New York, there was about two or three days, like us Europeans, so I should go to the West Coast. So differences, I don't think we are, there is more theoretical, there is more how to do things than here. So we learn from, hopefully learn from experience by meeting responsible, talk about what we learn. And in America there is an emphasis on how to do and which is less here. I think that's my observation. Stepping back slightly, you spoke a little bit about the MSA and it features very prominently in your history. Would you please tell us about the MSA, what did they do, how did they impact you? I can't say exactly what they do because I was on the board remember. The MSA was basically a group of people initially, a group of people who assembled to have fun as gay men who were interested into leather or end or SM. And I think 70, whatever, three became number 29 and it grew at a time to 100 and there was a schism because somebody voted that only people with a bike could be a member, whatever, like everywhere. But the main function, the main function of MSA and they for a very long time fulfilled that function whilst being a living room, being a get-together, being social contact with leather men or from men into leather SM. It was a far more a a club of friends who knew each other and that over the years wasn't necessary anymore because you but now if the internet or whatever. So the social function of the MSA that need to have this social function for lonely people who at the time were not accepted because let's not forget in the 60s and the 70s you couldn't all in a pair of leather trousers because you were impossible. And slowly with the acceptance of that and the acceptance of SM the need to have a social function to ask other people to help sort of diminish. Well Leather Pride Amsterdam is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. That's a huge achievement. How did you and why did you create Leather Pride Amsterdam? Why? Why is a simple question like with everything in life. You need to you need to love what you do with the interest whether you are a carpenter you need to love your trade you need to like it so that work is not something it can be a hobby or whatever. And through my friendship with Bob of the Heels I was sort of should I say that sucked into the Leather scene and and then Rob and I died in 1990 and I started to the rock shop I got more involved into and then in 1995 I think the MSA had their 15th anniversary I think they favored themselves about 25 so in 1970 their 25th anniversary and they organized that in the what we now call the old arena I think at the time it was only and it was an old the buildings were an old convent there was a restored convent with like a church with angels painted on the ceiling there was a restaurant or a hotel and this this 35th anniversary was a huge success and and I thought because at the time we already had a business in America and I had Leather Pride there and of course there was Hamburg Leather Pride and there was East there was Berlin and I thought we should do something in Amsterdam this is the perfect venue so I asked one of our employees the next day I said go there and try to reserve the days in November so that we didn't intervene with other parties and try if it is possible to reserve these days so we didn't know exactly what we would do but it was important to have at least the days that we could do something so that was basically the scene which Leather Pride Amsterdam was born and from a very small thing it went to over that year it involved a lot of people other businesses to help that but ultimately in the 1996 Leather Pride was fantastic I think you mentioned again what we were preparing for this that years ago a lot of German tourists would come to Amsterdam to enjoy its much more liberal lifestyle and it's wise would you please tell us a bit about that well we what we forget nowadays is that it's not that long ago it was not without any risk apart from sexual risks when I went out to this bar I mentioned before for the first time and which was probably let me think let me think probably in the 60s if you would come too close then too close to another man although if you would hear the bar and say think about it think about the favors we get because officially it was forbidden to be well it was forbidden the laws were against it was something against something else everywhere in Europe very soon within a couple of years in Holland they lifted those banners things to but and therefore in the people in Germany who still have these these laws came to Amsterdam being a free city of course Cannabis Marijuana started here and there so the DOK the dance club was famous or infamous for other people and they would come literally by bus lots and buses came to Amsterdam and the same was for other people because at the time you had Hamburg once a year you had Berlin where there were more there was nothing in in London there was there was a back seat where the owner would go around with a light to see that you wouldn't have sex and in those days I know from friends they would fly in people would fly in to ten times a year to have to come to Amsterdam purely because tell us about Rob who was he over the years of course but who had known him he has become a bit of a larger than life figure figure he was he was either people loved him or they hated him he was big faces but who am I to say who was he he was a craftsman he was a you could call what a real fetishist he was a leather leather was his fetish he didn't rubber or whatever leather was and he was also he was thinking about this whole leather scene coming out he helped a lot in people accepting the leather scene and he wasn't afraid to he probably liked it to cause controversy in public but he had very good views on that so he was very kind and intelligent so a pity that he departed too early I think what kinds of what kinds of controversies did he create well when when I still worked for this printing company we instead of picking gifts for Christmas we invited our customers once a year for a theater evening with their new partners and as I as I and my customer knew I was gay I was open about that but didn't know exactly of course what it was that was a really a bit shady so I took Rob to this to this theater evening so he would he would make an outfit for me in leather which was a suit I want to be nice and he came overall with cut-off with cut-off arms with these tools here and there and steering controversy but at the same time women loved it of the customer what is this but it helped to bring out in the open the diversity of gay people because we must not forget that in the 60s and 70s when you were gay you were effeminate when my wife and I split up about a year later she said I think that my brother saw me walking on the street with these white gloves or whatever indicating sort of together that's not gay so there has been a seat change in in thinking of what gay means gay people and that they are like and he has worked very hard he has been on television of course one of the things which sadly how was the how was the HIV start but it's another thing how did you come to own this the third rock shop here in Amsterdam that was because of HIV what happened was that I met Rob and we had just started his business and I wanted to we made something and we got on by out of crime so we we thought and one day we tried to have sex with last one minute I think but we we were into the best of it in 1984 my husband died it was a very nasty thing he had to take came from Cologne his parents a mess not accepting gay people and Rob and I said God this is you don't think about dying when you're young when he is at the age of 43 so we decided that he would become my executor in the following years he married or he could marry of course he met die happens is my father and in 1987 I lived in London first die was well we all had AIDS at the time because HIV was not invented the term was not invented there and about a year later Rob was also diagnosed and they both died in so you have to ask yourself a question after a year so is that finished or not from then on it started so you mentioned HIV impacting the community but when it did it also affected the sale of the newer caps Rob would you tell us why? not only newer caps but it was an interesting observation of course what happened was that suddenly within a couple of years five years a whole I said all the people by they maybe survived and then you had very young people but this whole middle people between 20 and 40 50 were sort of almost wiped out and it means that the whole letter scene suddenly I mean you didn't have friends anymore and I'd be lucky very lucky that I seem to have gone through that but the letter scene was decimated and and therefore people from 18 when normally you have younger people come into the scene and they are other people and they slowly get interested in more and more experience they start to buy leather and then they get a newer cap as an example and so newer caps were there because there was nobody there to buy them there were no people anymore and then suddenly in 19 five six seven or two thousand they started to pick up the gun so you could see that the next generation was coming into coming into play well you've also said that each employee of Ron was able to teach as that what is that I think I a bit over optimistic I know everything I can think of some people working for God who do that but let's say the people who mainly talk to our customers they have experience they are experienced and they all have their own speciality but we we love our we love we're into SM we're into PDSM and everybody who say again the words women women but people are from people all like and are all into SM and I think that's necessary because otherwise you know why would I do this it's very important to kind of to love what you do and to be interested you were the last owner of the Argos and that was truly a world-class leather bar why did that close we are dismantled they do very world-class and be credit but in the dark you don't see that the very simple reason because people didn't come to the Argos anymore so it's amazing how quickly that changed and no other way with the Argos everywhere we I think in 2011 it was still okay and in 2012 we could see a dramatic but more than dramatic drop and so with the start of the smartphone it's nowadays it's sort of old habit to say but with the smartphone internet has killed off the social aspect of the leather scene and you know are we in Amsterdam I think we were still lucky in Amsterdam but everywhere I mean let's face it we can complain but when you count the number of leather bars here we come from a very large number of bars because Amsterdam was or I don't know was it seemed to be or said to be the gay capital and and as I said before they came by the bus routes to Amsterdam so we had I don't know seven leather bars eight and at the moment we still have probably about four five in Berlin we don't have five leather bars in Paris they don't have five leather bars in London the hoist closes there's no leather bar well there's the backstreet so I think we can count ourselves lucky that we still have leather bars with and therefore can have a leather scene but it it all depends on people going out people being active in the community and unfortunately life with everything whether you have football or whatever it depends on the other few people who do that Drummer magazine was an amazing teacher for you how was that and how did you come to own it I seem to do something long like buying the internet stars or the smartphone stars and the same happened with Drummer magazine to go back Drummer magazine when I was young there was you had this these little magazines with new men the old fashioned American organizer and then suddenly you in the American bookstore which was in the coffee shop you could find Drummer magazine wow so there was nothing like Drummer magazine you had the publications from Denmark Toy and SM which were pictures but here we had stories and things like that so for me at least and I think for what I found for my generation most people Drummer was a beacon of BDSM sex and I wasn't I wasn't specifically interested in magazine to buy the magazine but what happened was that we got a visit in 1993 from the sales manager from Drummer magazine and we had dinner and you had dinner he invited me to come to San Francisco to see a judge at the Drummer contest that was 1993 I think and when I was there I was for the first time I was in West Coast I talked to people and very soon newly they got bankrupt they were there and this and that and I also had a small male company attached to where I saw those things so then thinking and the end of the story was that we bought the magazine and about eight years later and lots of money I decided to stop because then the internet came in 1995 so we couldn't get any adverse anymore it was America far away let me not let me not elaborate but I've tried but it was impossible to do that so yeah it stopped unfortunately I think I agree but I'm sorry I shouldn't do less work thinking to save the world changes when you judged IML some years ago you said you felt like an outsider why did you feel like an outsider it sounds maybe it sounds strange because nowadays so many people go to the United States and only bail for business but not so long ago not many people went to the United States and it was a different world when we had the drama contest in the early 90s in San Francisco the organizer of the IML talked to me and invited me to be a judge and I coincided that year with the first contestant first contestant in Europe but from Holland I think and we said half and so I I said yes I did that so I've I don't know I had to be there on a Friday and I flew in and I got to the venue and they were all busy and I didn't know how they organized it it was it was a very very close-knit American group of American people who they didn't have any time to breathe me or sitting at their table not knowing how nobody knew also the Dutch people didn't know because there was no experience and I felt I felt an outsider I thought more or less which I find but it was not a pleasure and when did you judge by ML I think there was a week out of 35, 6 30 90C 90C oh got better so 93 that other people assisted so I mean so what are your thoughts regarding mentoring in the leather community well I think mentoring as such is a concept at least I think it is a concept we don't know in a structural way it is not a concept you know in Europe it may be in America but I think that here again it is about structure and by book and I think in Europe I think when you come out and you find people to play with you learn at least when you're open you hope that hopefully you'll meet responsible people who can teach you something and that you are open but you learn everyday so it's it's not mentoring as such I don't think there is a rare case of mentoring in Europe I don't know but we don't know how do you see the leather community going forward business that's my question I think that that see we must not forget leather leather has always been there so and BDSM leather is not the word for what we do we do BDSM and we use leather to more attractive for us for other people so it's a mean not the reason and the community has been know it leather bars etc when you look at the bigger picture it has been it started 50 years though a year and now it has ended so we have had a period of 50 years in which we had a leather leather a community of people gathering and organizing themselves which went up and it was probably at the top okay became a different reason for health reasons because of HIV so you have now with the internet and the smartphone it has exploded into a period of little groups of interest and so I don't think you can talk about the leather community leather or BDSM I believe will always be there and it was there before the first leather bar Siren or and it will also even if there is no leather bar left BDSM will be there will be there because it is you cannot you cannot it's a bacterial or infectious it's there and when you have that you will try to find other people and it's also thank God more people are more flexible now because people have learned that BDSM is not only leather and that was before HIV and you had this handbook you couldn't combine leather with latex or whatever you had this religion this religion and that has faded away which is good so it will be there but different what advice have you for people who are new to the scene that's difficult to say it is it's for everybody it's for everybody the end there is no advice it's just people who are here be critical try to meet people and play with people where you learn something from hopefully meet those people are new things that's there is no advice really I think we all had to we all had to learn we all have had our encounters where we say God never again and others where we say God that was nice and so it's difficult there is no general advice what are your personal fetishes a fetish personal fetish I have no personal fetish fetish I have too many fetishes well yes yeah I think so I think so what is my well then you need to find a lot of fetishes fetishes it is fetish it's not the word I think but but I'm not into a special fetish I would say I don't there is too everything almost everything what's your fate depends on depends on the depends on the person it depends on the so you can you can you can have a wonderful time wearing a suit you can have a wonderful time that's it you have to make the occasion be creative what's the biggest misconception about you it's an even more difficult question I think that's difficult to answer because everybody will have a different a different view on anybody so there are a thousand different views of me I don't say I'm a public figure unfortunately sometimes in my mind and therefore see everybody has its own view of I cannot say for myself because this conception is I don't but the interesting thing is often that's why it's you cannot answer this question because everybody is different mostly when people see you or talk to you they expect you to be the same as they are when you are when when you are not there then you suddenly so people look at when people talk to other people they expect something from the other person to act as they do to themselves and when it doesn't stop with their view so misconception well that concludes the formal interview I would like to give you a very sincere heartfelt thank you