 I think this book talks about technology as a very positive tool that comes with one downside that, which is it allows us to use it unconsciously. And when when Americans are being asked about how much time they think they spent unconsciously with their devices. It's about 50% of their time. So if we're connected for over 12 hours, that's over six hours being spent unconsciously. If that was turned into action into into alignment with ourselves like one can become a millionaire in this country in a few years of six hours per day. That that is the reality that we live in so it's there's a lot of wasted potential and that wasted potential can be used for a lot of good. Cindy Ninkovic is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine. Cindy's family fled former Yugoslavia in 1992 and found refuge in Austria, where he quickly learned the most important skill of his life, adapting to new circumstances. Since then, Cindy received an MBA from UC Berkeley and help companies like BMW, Lucid Motors and Apple for 10 years to release new tech into the world. In 2019, Cindy left Apple as he realized that he needed to adapt once again, this time to a new reality in which digital technologies have been creating distractions that keep us away from realizing our dreams and full potential. Cindy currently lives in San Francisco, where he wrote untethered and where he helps clients overcome distractions create healthy habits and achieve their dreams with the use of their devices. We are here to talk about untethered and how to overcome distraction, build healthy digital habits and reconnect with life. This is Cindy's wonderful book. We have a few things in common. So my grandmother was from Innsbruck, Austria. I have family there currently. I haven't seen them much since the pandemic started, but Cindy actually grew up in Innsbruck and we have that in comedy. She's German and English and originally from Croatia and Bosnia and has all sorts of wonderful experiences, but loves the English language loves to help and communicate kind of like the Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of like me. English is my mother tongue but actually German is my mother tongue. That's what I grew up. That's my mother spoke German. Welcome to the podcast, Cindy. I'm so glad to have you here. Thank you so much, Mark. I'm super happy to be here. Well, you sent me your book and it's still not out officially yet the launch hasn't occurred yet. You gave me an advanced copy to review kind of as a beta reviewer is kind of a podcast host do and and people review to give you some books and that was actually through Goodreads Goodreads is a good platform that I use a lot to review a lot of the books that I that I read and people who I have on my podcast, and I appreciate it and I devoured it I read it. Pretty quick but I read all books kind of quick and it was a good read very timely, very necessary. You know talks a lot about the coven and things in there, but I want to start a little bit earlier. So your background. I touched upon a little bit in in your biography, but you touch upon it quite a bit it's your story it's your a lot of your life and your personal experiences are in the book and you've not only been very fortunate in your upbringing kind of a global citizen. I would say a couple languages traveling and then fortunate, not only through your education, and the jobs that you've had the positions you've held and companies you've advised and help to really be a cutting edge in many respects I think to really cover what what you've done and where you've been. All that, all that wonderful experience. Did it help you at all to weather this crazy time pandemic black lives matters. People of color, just recently what's gone with the Asian racism and violence that's that has occurred the craziness around immigration, you know, Brexit I could go on and on and especially the COVID lockdowns pandemic and, and now we're kind of seeing slowly the world kind of emerging out out of that. What did that experience that past knowledge that wisdom around tech around things help you, or did it actually make what we'll go into next, this addiction with technology worse was it like now you're forced into the tech even more. Those are great questions mark. Well, well to start off I would say, there are two main experiences that have helped me or at least changed my perspective on this pandemic. One of them is certainly coming to Austria as a refugee right and having to start in Austria learning a new language, learning a new culture, establishing a new way of life that we weren't used to as a family. So what, what I learned there is obviously adjusting to new circumstances but also the value of looking into the future. Right, because when you come to new countries of refugee and you, there is a natural inclination to give into sadness. Right, because you just lost so much you lost everything that for my parents especially everything that they worked for for 35 years of life was lost within of a couple of months. So it's easy to fall into sadness but I think they what what my family did really well and that that's what they taught me was to like, look forward and and see what's ahead rather than look into the sadness of the recent past. And during cold with that was also extremely helpful. So I think the first month around March, April, that was, that was a tough month because I felt the, the, the energies around me it was hard for a lot of people. And so even though I personally didn't suffer too much at that point I've already given up my job at Apple I've already faced a new reality for myself. So it wasn't the hardest month of my life personally but a lot of people were struggling and so with with that I had a lot of friends that were calling me and and obviously my family as well. So, it was hard from that perspective, but not necessarily in terms adjusting to new circumstances. I think growing up in the ways that I did help me to actually create the best out of this crisis for myself, my family and some of my friends, as a few examples, early in the crisis I decided to spend some time in in places I've never visited before, because I realized that, well if nobody is traveling, there won't be any tourists, meaning wherever I go I'm going to have the most local experience I will ever get in my entire life. Right. And so I decided to spend a few months living in Portugal. I've experienced a very different culture there that I enjoyed a lot and spend a few months living in Taiwan, which was one of those countries that was able to combat COVID in in phenomenal ways, meaning while I was there I hardly felt any effects from COVID. Everything was open restaurants were open bars were open. It was a pretty normal life over there. So I had, I had the advantage that I could live on three different continents during this pandemic and really experience how culture is affected by COVID. And that was that was just super fascinating. So that's the first experience from a childhood that kind of allowed me to just look into the future and adjust my needs and desires during this time so I traveled a lot actually on mostly empty airplanes and experienced local cultures in ways that will probably never be able to again. And this is obviously the the side of tech dependency and tech overuse. And I think that had quite a negative effect in the beginning, because as you know I talk about this in my book about the effects of the negative negative media bias meaning there is a big incentive for media to report articles that are highly negatively racist. And that showed up in March and April, like no other time before I mean it was impossible to open a news channel without hearing about people dying and how it's going to affect us all and how bad the future is, and what's going to happen to the stock market. So it's kind of hard to flee from that and, and at the same time I was living with a few people and so we kind of rallied each other together into into states of consciousness that weren't necessarily beneficial to us in this first month. And I think tech added to this crisis to a certain degree by by making this news easier available to us by allowing us to wake up to notifications of negativity. Right. And so I don't I don't necessarily think tech helped me through the crisis as much as these childhood experiences did. Now obviously on the positive side of things. There are a lot of amazing developers out there who developed software like zoom that allows us to still connect like we're connecting right now, and still have a certain degree of human experiences so I think without technology, on the other hand the crisis might have been much much harder on all of us, as we were would not have been able to keep up that social conflict in such an easy way. I love that thanks for sharing that. Taiwan is a beautiful place a wonderful, very advanced civilization you kind of touch about on Taiwan kind of it closer toward the end of the book. I had actually had Audrey Tang the digital minister of Taiwan on on the podcast and did a lot to help Taiwan and many the other social and governmental structures there helped a lot as well as an advanced society. I also touch upon that, you know, Taiwan wasn't always such a place that dealt a lot with the garbage and litter and recycling issues and wasn't the best place in the world to live but now it's a totally amazing place to live very advanced and there's one caveat that comes to that is broadband as a human right in Taiwan. And what we're going to get into now is you actually started out with some addictions and probably still have some lingering addictions to technology. And that created some pretty big issues I guess in your life that that made this realization hey I've got a change I'm going to make this shift I've got to really figure out how to use it for the good, not how to be my kryptonite as you mentioned in my book as well. I'm going to say and how can I use it for for the good. So now you're going to a place that's probably got five to 10 times better broadband than the US and Europe and different places and everything's connected they're still open the the bars the clubs the concerts the events of baseball and that was fine you didn't have any problem or did you did you notice okay now I've really got to be disciplined or how was that like explain that to me. Yeah, what I think was interesting experiencing Taiwan during the crisis was not only the advanced civilization that you're mentioning which is, it's truly incredible at what level they are from a societal perspective but also from a technological perspective the systems just interact with each other as a simple example. When I picked up my visa there, I went to their visa office and there was an information stand at the entrance and I just asked hey, you know I have this type of visa where could I pick it up. And the person literally told me wait a minute sir, and came back with my card within a one minute. That's how like, well the systems are connected to all they needed to do is look up my name and within a one minute I had a card. And this trickles down through the entire society where the underground card can be used to the grocery stores to buy groceries. So all systems are just connected with each other and so is their society. Experiencing Taiwan during the crisis made my personal technology use change, and it made me realize that when everything is open what I focus on in my technology use is the social perspective meaning social media social networks. And I think over WhatsApp Messenger and all the other apps that allow us to connect with each other. While during Kobe that was less of my focus during Kobe the problem applications were Netflix, YouTube, entertainment applications that allow us to escape from the realities that weren't always positive during those times. So it was more more of a shift rather than necessarily a change in the overall usage it was it was a shift in apps that I've experienced during that time. Personally, I think that each one of us has a different problem that right we all love different things for some it's Kindle right they love reading books and they just can't close their Kindle application for other it's YouTube I just love motion picture. And so videos work really well for me as an educational material but also as a material of dependency to a certain degree. And for others it's it's social media, right, especially for teenagers that seems to be a huge issue. Yeah that that's a nice insight and it really transitions nicely to kind of some some other questions I want to draw out of you but also how they tie to the book. During this time of the pandemic the lockdown all this craziness we've seen a lot of a strong rise of nationalism a lot of racism problems around race as well. So really, really, nationalistic views in some respects. That's okay because we kind of go back to our home and kind of get localized and say okay we need to make sure we're all taking care of here in our local areas but in other respects it's kind of horrific things can happen and, and it can go right. Being in Taiwan Taiwan was one of the first to kind of recognize through their technology through those innovations. Okay, the there's a doctor in Wuhan he's saying okay there's we need to be aware of this and he was he was kind of facing, going to go into jail or prison and some some big even mentioning it, but they have this upvoting system in Taiwan that quickly recognize that what he was saying was accurate, so that they could lock down. And I believe in some respects they were probably already wearing masks similar to like in Thailand and Bangkok and other places in Asia, because of the air pollution because the air pollution is kind of bad and some of those places. It's a sign of respect as well right. Yeah, I think in Asia what's fascinating to me wearing a mask is a sign of respect and awareness, meaning, I am aware that I am currently sick, might be just a little cough, might be a flu, I don't know, but what I can do to around me is to wear a mask and I find that that voluntary giving up of some little freedoms is fascinating to protect others. I love and I do too I go to Asia quite a bit mainly Thailand and Singapore, but a matter of fact during the, during the same time I was supposed to go to Kuala Lumpur and Japan and, and Thailand again and it was just canceled. And what I'm kind of going is what with this nationalism and things that are going on, and how that ties to technology and how to having kind of a digital ecosystem or digital twin of the earth and having technology that offers broadband as a human right and kind of having those tools. There are some true benefits and so true things that really help but on the flip side there's some things that really can lead us arrive fake news is one you mentioned misinformation and things like that that that occur. Now a bigger question, do you feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel about a world without divisions of humanity one from other without nations without borders without these divisions you yourself had a journey as a type of a refugee that made it to the US. How did it make you feel during these times but how do you feel about it in general where we're moving forward in the future, especially now that there's in the past few years there's a lot of talk about potential did digital politicians digital ambassadors kind of this new digital governance and and things with emerging technologies. Tell us a little bit how you feel about that and also how you address that in your book. Well those are big questions mark, not sure I have an answer to all of them but. Well my thoughts on the first one is demonizing technology is something that we should be really aware of as a. It has a lot of potential downsides if we start demonizing technology being realistic technology, especially the smartphone was a revolution we're talking about an iPhone that came out in 2007 with the App Store I think in 2008 so talking about 1213 14 years of having smartphone and how did it change our lives, it changed our lives in ways where 97% of Americans can't even imagine walking outside without their smartphone. Like that is something that happened over a good decade. It's it's incredible change and there is a reason why we love our smartphone so much because the utility is is more powerful than any other tool has ever provided before in in history. There was no single time where an individual user had so much power in their hands. So that's something that we should cherish I'm. I love technology I love my smartphone I think those are the best tools we have ever developed so let's not demonize them. From the beginning, there are some disadvantages with with power always comes responsibility and so we have to be aware that these tools have some negative aspects to them, for example. As I spoke in the Taiwan chapter convenience is not always helpful to us right some of the conveniences our smartphones provide are actually acting against our interest. The complexity the negative media bias, the extractive algorithms, those are just some, some negative perspectives to technology that we have to be aware of and so my book in my book I talk a lot about awareness and how we can bring that back to technology use. So that's that's the first point I wanted to make. Let's not demonize technology let's not demonize tech companies. Obviously they don't always act in our best interest because they at the end of the day are within of a capitalist system so profit in profit incentives are there for these companies as well. In fact companies we could also say what other industry is interested in self regulating themselves in ways where they actually provide us with tools that allows us to use technology less. Right. Apple provides us the screen time tools that allow us to see okay, I'm using this app for that many hours and this for this many hours I can set limits. There are a lot of other industries who are willing to allow their users to visit them less often. You know, so there are some good, good sites to what tech companies are doing and so I don't want to demonize them because demonizing has a political perspective to it as well. The second point that I wanted to make, you know, the social dilemma for example at the commentary that has been seen by, I think, over 100 million households at this point it really, it really made a huge splash around the world. When I was visiting Taiwan people knew about it when I was in in Portugal people knew and heard about it so I have a lot of respect for Tristan Harris who put out this documentary and his life's work to help us understand what's really going on. At the same time I think demonizing technology has this political perspective to it. I remember one week after watching the social dilemma I turned on Fox News, and I heard the same talking points that I've heard in the social dilemma, but turned against the original intention. They made a comment like the liberal tech companies are using our attention against us. And so we need to develop conservative media that is telling us the actual truth. And so that's the kind of political downside of demonizing technologies, which, as far as I'm aware, liberal tech companies are not necessarily biasing our opinions in liberal ways that's at least what I've found in studies necessarily. So yeah, that's the second point that I wanted to make. And let me see if there was a third point. Global citizenship global citizen re globalization kind of. Yeah, yeah, that was the third point so. What's interesting to me is that we spend a couple of decades, going towards globalization and I think on a political spectrum we were first able to see. Oh wait a second not everybody is sitting on the same train. The nationalist movements that are showing us not everybody is on board with globalization not everybody wants to to give up some of their cultural elements to fit into a wider global structure. And now on a technological perspective, I think we're seeing similar developments of decentralization. Cryptocurrency is a great example of decentralization, because at the core of its technology is decentralization. And also the way we use messaging apps is proving to become more decentralized meaning what's up telegram groups, for example, are being used as local communities to develop local community around different interests, rather than having a shared platform where all of us are getting the same information people seem more and more interested to develop their own little groups. And so there is, while we're moving towards globalization and a unification of culture globally. There is also this this this movement which feels very human of building your own little tribe around you. So, in a gist you are saying you are a global citizen you feel good about that how would you feel about a world without borders divisions of humanity one from another. Part of part of your answer as well. When I went in the question because you went back to Taiwan and Portugal. During the beginning of a pandemic where most people said okay we're going to stay we're not traveling you know as you said, as a perfect opportunity to learn new cultures experience new things and traveling, and it worked out very well for you. I think it just in that action it seems like there's some kind of answer there as well of how you view the world. Yeah, absolutely I mean, I, I personally think we should be able to travel wherever we want to travel to and experience other cultures, the main reason for that being is experiencing other cultures whether that's within of the US or outside the gives us a new perspective. I know that for myself, having lived on different continents experienced different countries as as a local has given me a completely different perspective on the world and, and I've definitely become more liberal through that perspective because there is a understanding that's being developed off why the cultures behaving in a certain way why certain people are behaving in the ways that they are. I think that understanding is really hard to to come to when one is enclosed in the environment that we spend our every day said right so so traveling from that perspective is is I think one of the most unifying forces that exists around a question, should there be borders or not. That's a hard one for me to answer I don't think I'm like politically savvy enough to answer a question like that, but personally being able to travel everywhere I think that's important for us, whether we should be allowed to live anywhere that's a political question that's hard to answer and, and I think the, you know, the right wing and left wing sides have probably split on answering that question. I don't know what the right answer to it is. I've obviously profited myself from being allowed to come to Austria and grow up in Austria as a refugee so I think there's a lot of value to refugee programs when when countries are unstable. And there's a lot of value to visiting every country in the world. Does it make sense to allow all of us to live anywhere. That's a big question I'm not quite able to answer I, I wish I could from a personal perspective but if it makes sense in a political level I'm not sure. To be honest with me and didn't mean to put you on the spot. The real, the real reason behind it is during the pandemic, where you know most humanity was locked down kept behind their borders, but air water food. The global trade was still moving the pandemic obviously continued to move exponentially around the world species moved without borders, but humanity didn't, and we saw some real ripple effects of what some of the causes of that that restriction was a type of really lack of movement and I'm also kind of there there's a there's a bigger point to that and that is, we're all crew members on this spaceship Earth. So we're none of us are really passengers we're all kind of have our hand on the steering wheel can guide our future and our destiny, and are on this course to kind of guide where we're going and you know there's maybe babies and maybe right, right before they pass away are considered passengers but their passengers who usually teach other humans how to be better crew members and give them, you know, better stewardship over not only other humans but our planet and so I wanted to kind of get your views on that because now I'm going to go back to even the beginning I have some few questions for you before we dive even deeper in the book I want to know so you're once the book launches you're going to have seven day courses on on tips tools tricks how to untether that anyone can use and especially you you discuss this as well kind of parents because there's some complexities children parents, you know, and managing lifestyle work life balance things like that that it can be get into that complexity that you talk about, but I really want to know. Who is the book for what's your audience did you, before you started say this is my audience or is this anybody who has a smartphone or device in their surroundings can you tell me more about that. Yeah, absolutely. So originally when I started writing the book, I was focused on a teenager to young adult, because I think that they experienced technology from a very unique perspective. So until the age of let's say 22 were typically many of us are stuck in educational institutions stuck in a positive way as much as in a negative way but our perspective around how we use technology is very tight to that environment. And that environment is focused on learning and socializing those are the two perspectives of educational environments and so social media is social media and social media networks are influencing them in ways that they're not for most of us because we use technology beyond those two perspectives. Right. We can see that in data as well on Canada is is is amazing and how much data it collects about their elementary school and middle school children, and one of the pieces of data is in, I think it's in the state of I'm not sure I think it's in Ontario if I remember correctly, there is an interesting survey that is conducted every two years when they ask middle school children about their mental health the physical health, and how that is correlated to their technology use. And so over the over 2017 to 2019, they did the survey and I kind of looked into it to to understand what is changing. And there is this very clear correlation between screen time and physical health and mental health that can be the can be analyzed out of out of those two surveys. So, for example, with with a 20% of screen time. Physical health issues increased by about 20 to 25% mental health issues increased by 20 to 25% loneliness increases by the same number and and depression increases by the same number so obviously I can't infer causation from the screen time, but it is pretty clear that we when we increase increased screen time with with youth. It leads to more feelings of loneliness, although they spend so much time on social media networks. It increases depression rates it increases physical health issues so that was surprising to me initially when I saw it I was surprised by the loneliness crisis that is actually caused by screen time, although it allows us to connect more. That was that was fascinating for me to figure out and I think from that perspective technology is obviously for you not only a way of connecting but it's also a way of disconnecting from themselves and other seemingly so. And I wanted to focus my book specifically on a younger generation that is just coming out of educational institutions that will broaden the ways that they're using technology coming out of it, but also, I'm hoping with the book to provide him a perspective on the experiences that they have and hopefully the experiences that they might have in future with technology, so they can place themselves and they usage in a way that actually serves their future needs. I don't know if you're the millennial group but you're you're around 3334. You mentioned it in the book and so a question that came up in my readings and before we get into kind of some of the struggles you had and the transitions growing up. My concept thought is definitely younger generation I struggle to reach that younger generation so when I'm asked to speak or address those groups it's okay okay you have 10 minutes to tell us how to save the world. Yeah, 15 minutes of Ted talk to tell us how to save the world. And it's just extremely difficult but it's also dependent on how you know Ted says Ted talks will work around 15 minutes and the scream time and these tick talk versions and the YouTube the shorts and those things work the best to capture the attention and to feed that, which we'll talk that gets into as well as the social dilemma spoke about that as well. And so I'm as I'm reading this I get this entire filling throughout the book that it really is kind of for that audience, but I'm saying, I don't know a lot in that that group that read big books that read you know, a biblical book of you've all know a Harari, or you know, black love smell or whoever else that that is like that and so how do you capture that audience or how are they reading how do we get them to get this great wisdom that you're going with and have you thought about that. Besides the story of your journey that you take them on to a certain point and then you say okay, this is what I dealt with maybe you'll deal with some of the similar. And now here's the tips to get out of that or to use to to take, take control. I'm just almost worried to the, you know they're like, Oh my gosh what you know this is a book. This is longer than a minute, you know. Those are great points. Um, I mean mark you're speaking to my biggest worry from the beginning of writing this book I was like, see me why are you writing a book this is not the audience of book readers that they're a different audience at different generation the way they consume information. It has just changed so much the speed of information, how quickly we need to get to the point, and a book is not that format. So I am actually developing. Well first of all, the book can and should be read by read by people outside of that generation certainly so I'm happy that that you were one of the readers and I think it is useful for truly anybody who has a smartphone and feels dependency from time to time. That being said my desire is is to help the you the most and parents because I think they have they have pains that that others might not be feeling through technology. Now that that being said I think when I started writing the book I was aware that okay this book might not be bought primarily by young people because they consume information differently, but it was also a tool for me to really understand what tools are out there what is happening to us and I think a book for the author is as much a learning experience as it is hopefully for the reader and it was certainly for me. And so as the second step in my journey, I'm developing tools and courses that are more available to that generation so for example, the seven day course you shortly spoke about is one hour a day for seven days so that's a total of seven hours over a week that is life interaction with the audience that hopefully and that's the goal of the course helps us save one hour in our day after just seven days. That's the first step. Another step I'm working on right now is actually the the nine tools the nine tool frameworks that I'm presenting in the book. I'm getting them down to a few pages, and I will be posting them on my website for free so that, you know, younger readers who are interested in getting the core information and getting it right now have, have a chance to do so in ways that are accessible to them. Are you doing tick tock videos in future I'm not sure yet. I personally love tick tock I think it's a great platform. I'm actually subscribed to a couple of psychologists on there who deliver really amazing insights about human nature within a one minute so it is very useful information. So maybe I will pick up on that as well. It's also highly addictive. It is true. So we both know Tristan Harris for the Center for Humane Technology and last time I saw him was in Davos. He was speaking at the SDG cities event and then afterwards out in the lobby at the hotel we had a discussion and you mentioned in the book he came over to your house and you kind of know about what he does you've got a special dilemma you talk about that. I really think that there, the tools that you give in the book and that that is perfect. I was really thinking that be how do you reach these audience that's why I brought you that question and so luckily over the weekend while I was reading I was at a good friend of mine's house who has three children, they're all teens and below so kind of grade school and junior high school age, and all all of them have technology addiction all of them have not smartphone that's computers gaming addiction, but when it comes to their homework now for a long time Germany's been in lockdown so there's been kind of the homeschooling but done through zoom through online Skype, whatever formats that they use. And now they're even diving deeper into that and the parents were saying they haven't they're struggling to distinguish, are they doing homework or they interacting with their class and doing that or are they gaming or doing something and it just kind of as a it's a blending, and that there was some book reading requirements and they're saying, well we purchased he had the ebook or the did pdf version of the book but we purchased an audible audio version of that. And that seems to work very well which I've gotten a lot of feedback and audio version of the book, but then also these type of a cliff notes shorter versions like blinkest and I can't think of the other companies name that take kind of take the shorter version of the book and I, for me it's hard because it's like, you spent all this time this work this research and really masterwork a great book and read. And, and then you know people I give me the short version give me the elevator pitch just tell me the five things are nine things I need to know and then okay thanks I got it, you know, and eventually you, we can get get them hooked in the same digital odd reading and that's where I kind of want to go into this now with you and that is is in the beginning you really start out you said man I had some addictions and I lost some money and and and it really started out with gaming you you're gaming is in Innsbruck or was that already where you already had left Innsbruck. No that was back in Innsbruck so I think it was about 12 years old. When when Starcraft came out which is the kind of the the chess of computer games into a certain degree it's it's one of the most strategic games that has survived until now we still see tournaments in 2021 over 20 years later after that game came out. Starcraft was my first love as a gamer, but I've soon realized that games have just over the years become progressively better. Right, not only better in terms of graphics and resolution or gameplay, they've also become better in understanding what keeps us engaged. And, and now in Silicon Valley we use this this term gamification quite a bit to figure out how to keep people on our platforms more, more often and for longer periods of time. And that's because games were the first one to figure out how to do that, because obviously gamers are in this close system for hours and every click is monitored. So it's easy for for gaming companies to track what gamers are doing. And, and for me it's some point I felt like I spent more time gaming that I was in school then I played sports, although sports was probably my second love gaming to at some point became my first love and in the book I'm sharing the story around. How at some point after playing for 72 hours at the LAN party, I was close to being in an accident because of it and could have easily lost my life that day. But this this, I obviously realized for myself at some point that the gaming had to stop in order for my life to start to a certain degree. And there's another story in the book that I'm sharing around how that happened. But I think what's, what's more important is that even as somebody who is consciously aware of what happened to him. The apps that are coming out now are still hooking me into certain experiences that I didn't expect. One of those stories that I'm obviously sharing is, is the time that we're lost $100,000 because of mainly because of Robinhood honestly, the investment app that became so popular over the past three four years. And, you know, I'm not obviously the only person who has experienced that there is an unfortunate story of a, of a young trader on Robinhood, who, who allegedly lost multiple hundred thousand dollars turns out it was a technical error. Unfortunately, the young man took his life because of that technical error. So, there are real life consequences to us being gamified into experiences that shouldn't be gamified. There is a reason why financial, why the financial industry is one of the most regulated industries out there, because we don't want people to waste their life savings away because they, they feel like it's a game. And that's unfortunately happening to a lot of people and has happened to a lot of people over the past few years. And as personal finance has become this huge topic with cryptocurrency gaining popularity. I think it's, it's more important than ever to look at the applications that are keeping us engaged with those financial assets and if that's, if that's truly how we want to spend, be spending our time and be spending our money at the end of the day. You're definitely not alone. I believe there's millions of people on our planet who have an addiction problem. Most people don't know this. I did a podcast with an app developer, a good friend of mine, Stephanie Palermo Palermo, and she did an app called Queen Rules. Because our podcast I tested it out and I've got the worst addictive personality out to play it till the end and finish it. But that goes way back. So I have what's called techno lust I've had it my whole life. So I was one of the first on the internet. One of the first computers a big IBM data card and big tape drive computers and just have always been programming coding and really addicted to technology. And then my first games were, you know, the old sim cities and then the age of empires. And then I actually played I have children so I have a son he's just had a baby. His wife just had a baby, and he and I used to play Starcraft so I know exactly what you mean and we loved it we were addicted and did our own plans and all sorts of stuff so I love I love the game and, and it is very addictive but I'm one who used to years back decades ago, used to work these weird rotation shifts different hours, and I'd get off work and go home, turn on the computer and start playing these games and all of a sudden I'd have to sleep so I can go back to the next shift to work. And all of a sudden be like four or five in the evening and I hadn't gone to sleep yet but I had to go to work in a few hours. That's how addictive it really is and I know how it is I you know when I said tiktok's addictive I know how that is there's some amazing content on there but there's also this thing that you just can't stop consuming in your next thing hour or two hours and you really talk about that and and go into kind of on why how it happened to you and what you experienced but what the research and trends and data not only from Tristan Harris and and that and then you later in the book bring up some tools from like Tim Ferriss and many others on how we can manage our time how we can have those four hour work weeks and those those times those those pockets of efficiency where we're not giving away all our life to technology and neglecting you know things that we need to do in in the book you really talk a lot about getting help from your friends and checking in and making sure they keep you on track with your time and you keep them on track with their time. How does that does that really work that doesn't really work is that because you're a different generation I I don't know I think I have I struggle with that I'd like to know more on some of those tips and how you do that. Totally totally yeah so so before I talk about the tools maybe one mention around addiction and I don't know if you've noticed that in the book but I try to stay away from the word addiction as much as possible. And the reason is that a lot of our habits feel addictive, but from a physiological perspective, it's it's hard for even scientists to say like, is this a true addiction, like, like a substance addiction is, or is this more bad habits that we need to get out of. And so I talk a lot about some dependencies and over usage but I try my book to not mention the word addiction too much, because I'm not sure and a lot of scientists don't seem to be quite sure yet whether we can talk about technology as being a true addiction, the way that is defined by science these days. So that's just something that I wanted to point out because I think, you know, in society is the word addiction. And, and somebody who has experienced true substance addiction for them technology might not be addictive in that in the truest sense of that word. So just wanted to put that out there before talking about tools. I talk about social responsibility a lot in in my tools. And the reason is that, especially the youngest generation is that they are so tight to each other through different groups, right through through the decentralized platforms that they're using that they spend significantly more time with other people in virtual rooms, then they actually spend with themselves by themselves. Reading doing whatever is needed to develop themselves significantly more time right we're talking about a one to five one to six ratio. And so if if they're so used to being with each other already. Why not take advantage of of something that they're used to a habit that they already have and turn that habit into something useful. And so in my book to talk about in a chapter called repeat. I talk about the two main tools that I use to stay accountable to myself and my future self mainly. And one of them is I love using my calendar and I schedule appointments with myself in my calendar which is something that I think many more people should should do. I have one hour per day in there that is my quiet hour, where I don't spend time with technology but I spent time with myself to kind of recenter and refocus on my own needs. But the, the other tool that I that I love sharing and it is, it is so powerful. I talked to a friend of mine recently who started a habit course a couple of months ago, and the number one tool that helped his, his clients develop healthy habits was accountability with each other. Right and he, he talks about that as well in his course. So for me, the number one tool that I use on a daily basis is, I work with other people to make their goals happen, and they work with me to make my goals happen and that happens in very simple sessions. So every day I have about one or two of those sessions where we jump on a zoom call like this one. And I tell my friend what I'm about to do for the next hour, and they tell me what they're about to do for the next hour, and then we do our work together. And I'm accountable, I'm making sure that he's doing his work or she's doing her work, and they're accountable that I'm doing my work and and the reason why it works so well is is actually quite simple and it's scientifically proven as well. So, when we think about doctors who prescribe a certain medication. The likelihood that we will actually use that medication on ourself is about 70%, meaning 70% of people consume the prescribed medication for them. If our pet is sick and a doctor prescribed that prescribed certain medication to them, 92% of people are buying and giving that medication to their pets. So, even if it's not another human, even if it's just our pet, we are significantly more likely to help them get better than we are to help ourselves get better. So, the likelihood of me doing my work when I'm by myself is lower than the likelihood of me doing my work, if somebody else is, is making sure that I am doing my work. But also, if I'm making sure that they're doing their work, because being helpful is something that we humans strive for everybody desires to help others it makes us feel good. And so creating a situation where we are, we are more likely to feel good about the work that we're doing is something that is extremely useful. And I can't imagine, I can't imagine to, to spend a week without accountability at this point it's just the most efficient or effective tool that I've ever used. And with that accountability. I also like that chapter by the way, repeat and how you discuss that and a few other nice things in the chapter I think it's very efficient to build a new habit to build positive habits and and also kind of shows how easy it is to change habits. So the question is, do you feel or have you in your journey at all felt like you've been pushed into back another punching in and out at a work micromanaged on your time like you feel okay. I feel like my parents are asking me to do my homework or read the book or my employers asked me to punch in punch out for lunch punch out for break and, and that this this constant micromanagement of one's life is that much different than that. I think it's significantly different because because micromanagement is a felt experience that we have when somebody else manages our time without alignment with our own needs. Right. That's when we experienced to be micromanaged when you know when my my partner and I talk about how to structure our days and we are lined up with our needs then it never feels feels micromanaged it feels great to have alignment with another person. And similar with accountability to me it has never felt like micromanagement it actually feels very liberating because I know some there's somebody who actually cares for me doing the work that matters to me. Right there they're not profiting from this work in any other way than feeling good about their achievements are feeling good about their contribution to my life. They're not profiting in a financial way from from doing the work with me. I think the biggest difference is just this pure alignment with my personal needs and, and sometimes I end up in these hours it's, it's, Mark it's not like every hour is productive when I'm with another person, not at all sometimes I spend most of the time being confused or not being able to figure what I want to do. That's possible and then after the hour I tell my, my friend, quite honestly what what happened and why it happened and even that is a moment of awareness, you know, exchanging that with another person to come to a conclusion Oh, I guess I started by going on this side and that led me down this rabbit hole and and now suddenly I couldn't do my work. That's a good moment of awareness and and part of the journey like no no journey is a straight shot up. We are always going to experience some setbacks and these little setbacks being discussed with a with a friend on the other side is just a beautiful way of connecting to each other and connecting to oneself. Sounds like it's really a great way to build new community build new bonds and friendships and deepen those relationships. In some respects you're absolutely right what you said earlier there's so many of us who really have these small communities these little clicks that we work in especially the youth they, they have their decentralized little groups where they communicate very well. And there's constantly new ones popping up. I really want to get into some, some bigger questions here so that I want to know if you've thought about along the way as I read your entire book. I give the overwhelming sense that you, you care, you care about the environment you care about sustainability, but there's not a lot of direct talk, except for a little bit with Taiwan where you come out and talk about it there. How does that tie to technology, how does that tie to untethering and connecting back with nature you do talk about that a little bit can you tell me what, what that balance is it's not work life balance but it's more like a connecting back to the world the world around us. I told the thanks for asking that question mark I think that's extremely relevant in times that we live in. Now, that being said, you know, my book is already 300 pages. So, to talk more about this would have meant to write a second book. Like the maybe the environment, environmental topics are even bigger than than the topics around being or using technology too much, or in ways that are not helpful to us. I mentioned a little bit in our book I think the, and maybe this is this is kind of a good intersection here to to to mention why this book is a little bit different than what I've read before. And what is out there. In my book I don't necessarily condone technology in any way I do mentioned that the average American spends over 12 hours connected to media every single day. And those 12 hours can be spent in extremely productive way that make us happy that make us proud of our work, and they can be spent in extremely toxic ways, where we're just trying to escape some issues that we might have in real life. Now that being said, I think this book talks about technology as a very positive tool that comes with one downside that which is it allows us to use it unconsciously. And when when Americans are being asked about how much time they think they spent unconsciously with their devices. It's about 50% of their time. So if we're connected for over 12 hours that's over six hours being spent unconsciously. If that was turned into action into into alignment with ourselves like one can be become a millionaire in this country in a few years of six hours per day. Right, that that is the reality that we live in so it's there's a lot of wasted potential, and that wasted potential can be used for a lot of good. For some people it will be used to enrich themselves and for other people it will be used to enrich this world whether that's through culture, whether that's through environmental action, but we are basically wasting six hours per day unconsciously scrolling unconsciously being on social media unconsciously watching something and consuming. So for six hours we're just pure consumers. Right, we're pure users of technology, but in passive ways. And I think there's just endless potential here and I talk a little bit about environmentalism, but when I think about my book I think about this idea of giving back six hours in the day. And, and, and when six hours of being used consciously, we all have different interests but I'm sure these six hours most of them is going to be positive action towards society and this world. And so I think the biggest thing we can do for ourselves and others is to start using technology in more conscious ways, because that will actually lead to the actions that you were talking about. Yeah, there are so there are so many things that you can do with those hours and you do talk about meditation you talk about it in a roundabout way in a few other areas so you touch a little bit on meditation touch a little bit about Taiwan you also touch about connecting culture and, you know, a few other things that I deal with a lot of future us a lot of people in this space and and since the pandemic it's really tripled online, more technology more emails more texting more new apps and services. There are different devices to be more efficient to to to get get things done. And that use of efficiency I know people just in the pandemic, they've written two books. I know some have written four books I know some that have graduated with a degree, you know, an online degree I know some that have had a baby so I know I know that only maybe takes a few minutes to an hour or, or less but then nine months of gestation. You know, there's all sorts of things you can do with that extra time captured into to the realization of that six hours, and even if you can get it to more day of what things you can learn a new language you can learn where you're going to go travel or what things you're going to do this, this is endless that that then change can change your future I mean just what you're doing with the book and what your journey as you said you've had these hard times these experiences, you've worked for fabulous companies. Now you're going, you're writing the books and consulting and helping people in this, this direction is is enormous. There's one, one thing that I kind of want, want to touch about so Sir Ken Robertson died, August 21 2021 of the greatest educators we ever had and really is creating a new movement for education. Our education system is broken and right now a lot of the solutions that we're talking about is what new technologies what courses how can we provide that online. During the beginning of the pandemic I did the earth school. These quests with a Ted education on to drive kids to you know at their home to their computers half online half offline to kind of learn and be educated. We really want to use new apps and technologies and so I don't want to demonize technology I don't want to demise apps or those companies, because I think a lot of the solutions that we're looking for to change the system to improve it lies in in these innovations in these technologies but we have to have that capstone course or that critical thinking around how to use it for a benefit so that it doesn't become our kryptonite and that's what you so eloquently talk about in in the book. Without me kind of giving too much away what what would you say the that future is going towards for for the youth and for humanity, and does it really lie with the step advance with how we think about it critically how we understand it how we kind of see it as a dual edged sword or that kryptonite or is it come afterwards with the way that technology like Tristan Harris is doing is kind of how can we make technology that's more humane. Yeah, that's a great question I think. I honestly think that both movements have their value. On one hand, I think technology is constantly going to evolve there's no like stopping technology from evolving is shouldn't even be our goal, because coming up with more efficient ways of doing what we're already doing is is something that technology provides us on a daily basis and we've seen it through the pandemic. We've all downloaded new apps and use new tools to connect with each other, mostly to connect with each other. But at the same time we've also downloaded new tools to connect with ourselves whether that's meditation apps or journaling apps. These tools are out there as well. So, at the end of the day, it's all about how do we use technology. Right to use technology 14 hours per day. I'm not sure. Probably 100 years ago before, you know, before we had a ban on alcohol sales in the US, people were also wondering, is it okay to have five beer in an hour or in a day. Right. It's just hard because we don't have a real metric right now on alcohol we know that that the blood. The the alcohol content in our blood is kind of the metric that we're using right now to evaluate how much is still healthy for us and how much is good for us and and how much we can drink to still be part of society. We find that metric pretty clearly. Nobody tells us, can I still drive a car after using Facebook for three hours. Like, these are real questions that we actually haven't answered for ourselves. Nobody tells me, oh, I can't game for 12 hours and then drive a car I think it's extremely dangerous. Right, but, but we don't have these metrics yet and maybe even time isn't isn't the right metric to to use in first place. So that being said, I think technology can be used in any way that we want to use it. The complexity is going to increase the choice is going to increase so it's going to be harder to make the right choices here, and it's also going to be harder to have a reduction in this approach, meaning how many hours do we want to dedicate to connecting with technology and how many hours do we want to dedicate to connect with humanity and connect with ourselves, and how many of those hours do overlap. I guess we are having it right now I think this is an overlap hour. Right. I think that that we need as a society to define healthy levels, not only for alcohol, not only for calories, not only for saturated versus unsaturated fats. There is an opportunity to define that for technology as well and and more specifically the balance between technology and a more humane approach to life. There's this. I'm, like I said, I love technology and so I found that balance I use a lot of the tools that you discuss in your book and have before they even existed how to start setting boundaries are setting some some guides for me to to make it work and function for me. That's that's best and I don't want to go into all those tips and tricks I mean you can tell I'm standing in front of the the computer right now speaking to you I've been standing because I believe sitting is the new smoking and standing is great has a different experience, but also technology around the places where you sleep you touch upon that as well and things like that. Yep. I really want to be more that you played a lot of of Starcraft as well. Right. Starcraft is is is a beautifully designed game. And I don't know if you've recently ever picked up a computer game I after after playing Starcraft to I kind of stopped gaming for for seven or eight years because I just couldn't handle what what games were giving me but what's what's giving me is that it's not necessarily the quality of games that are changing not necessarily the quality of apps that are changing. But it is the the ways they keep us engaged that is changing, especially now that mobile games are becoming more and more popular. I know for sure the storylines are not getting better, but I'm, there is still a lot of addictive potential to these apps more so than ever before because these gaming producers have figured out how to keep us engaged rather than provide unnecessary storylines to us and it's become less of an art and more of a tool of engagement. And I think that's kind of that's really scary because when technology improves the quality of our lives, it's it's just beautiful. A great example of that for me is is meditation apps something that was so hard and unaccessible before has become accessible for millions of people in in, you know, lighthearted and easy accessible ways. But games have have gone the other direction they've said okay let's let's keep all the parts that have made this an art before how to create a storyline, how to name these characters properly. All of that has gone away and now we have these like one click two click games that are super simplified but keep keep people engaged and and the gaming producers now know when to send us messages that are most likely to convert us into buyers of new products and new skins and so forth. That's where I think we're making progress towards directions that are not helpful to us but when technology increases the quality of its product or the quality of life. Then that's just that's just beautiful it's it's actually very humane when things like meditation are becoming super available to us I think that's just beautiful and connects us with ourselves and other people. How do we how do we know when that turns from creating new art to creating more engagement. I really think there's a delicate balance and I see it in the positive way. There's also this initial as a certain technologies are certain new types of gaming new types of apps start to emerge there. I don't know if you would want to call it a learning curve but there's this initial curve where you figure out what you don't want to get into or what you don't want to go down that road and how to make it work best for you. And to answer your question. Yes I. Matter of fact I've never never really stopped getting away from technology the beautiful part for me is I've always been a global citizen I've always had family all around the world but I haven't always lived in multiple places around the world at the you know at the same time so I've in the early ages as soon as it was available just to have cheap telephone calls with my family overseas and then Skype and doing video calls to be able to see them what has been fabulous and I now it's just a commonplace thing I can see my family and my business partners all around the world which is a family fabulous thing currently in the gaming what I'm getting into more and gaming and I see this shift in how how gaming and those apps are going. I don't know if you've seen the Mandalorian or heard about that with Disney, they're pretty much epic games and using the unreal engine and they're using these amazing rooms with high definition screens and just doing these virtual backgrounds but you could never tell that it's you know all virtual is done on this unreal engine. I just, I've had epic games for a long time and unreal engine but they just did this human creator this new version where you can create a real realistic looking replica of yourself or other human. And I really want to combine kind of a digital twin, you know, to experiment with AI and digital twins, not only for the earth and ecosystem but as delivering and giving content in multiple ways at the same place and getting a real time update on collective intelligence. And that's where we can get into the negative part where but maybe a deep fake would be a direction where it would be going to go negative or where you could use it as a positive to spread information in a way that is still humane is still very helpful to those who don't have access to, to all the wonderful influencers in the world out there at every single moment of the day and so. Yeah, I really think there's always two sides to that coin and the section that out of your book that I love the most is that whenever you talked about complexity and systems and how, how you know they are to give us better understanding and acceptance on that they exist and that's okay and how we can be okay with that because. And you mentioned this as well because there is this downgrading we try to oversimplify and that's where I get back to, you know, the TED talk or the quick pitch or give me the short version, I don't have the time. We have the time because we're spending 12 hours a day in front of our devices which he said, but then they still want the short version so they can just consume more stuff that's probably not helping once life. Whereas if we got into the depth and complexity in the systems of things would realize boy this is powerful wonderful tool, same computing power that took man to the moon. And then the palm of my hand or it's in front of me and I can use it to get an education I can use it to write a book or to advance myself and that's what I see in your book and I really enjoyed it I appreciate you did give me some questions and I've asked you those. The hardest question I have for you today is really the burning question. WTF. And it's not the swear word although maybe you did ask yourself that during during these crazy times. It's what's the futures, where are we going what's, what's the plan for for that that we're on and I really want to know just for you I don't expect you to tell us what it is for all humanity but where are you going what's the plan what are the things you're working on and what's that journey look like. So, well first part of this journey is obviously publishing this book. And I'm very excited about that because I do think these 300 pages contain a lot of value of information not only in terms of tools but also our mindsets and just understanding the tech world a little bit better. And that it's the courses that I talked about which I'm mega excited about. I think these are direct applications of some of the teachings in the book and and are easier accessible for for the youth, especially. And after that I am or I'm actually already working on it, creating simplified versions of the book that are accessible for for this younger generation whether that's free downloads on my website or hopefully in future tick tock talks that might be the most accessible way for them. And the last part is, I talk about, or I think about community a lot. And I think that there is potential based on this, this unpeded book to also create an unpeded community of people who want to hold each other accountable. Whether that's with their morning routine, whether that's with their work assignments, whether that's with their relationship to their partners. I'm thinking a lot about how to create this community of people who want to help each other create win win situations be accountable, make themselves and others feel better through this process. Because I at the, at the end of the day I believe when we feel good, we take right actions more often and when we feel bad, we take toxic actions more often and our smartphone is just a representation of how we feel. If we try to escape problems we have in real life, then it's very easy to open YouTube to open Netflix, and just be a consumer of that information. But when we feel good when we feel helpful when we feel engaged, our smartphones open up a whole new world for us to express that engagement to express that interest of helping each other. And so I think the, the, the kind of future part of this journey for me is to create a community of unpeded creators who want to help each other be accountable and be the best version of themselves. Are you hopeful and optimistic for our future. I'm extremely hopeful and optimistic for our future because if we can change so much in just 13 years since since the iPhone came out. I think I think we have endless potential to change and adopt and, and we can already see that with the youngest generation, for example, millennials use their phone more than the generation that comes after although we think of them as the most addicted they're not truly not not if we look at data. And in some scientists believe that their reduced attention span is just a way of analyzing or it's it's a natural consequence to an overload of information. And so they adjusted by being able to faster comprehend what's behind information. So we call it like a shorter attention span but it might just be a further development of humanity that allowed them that is a consequence of their ability to analyze information more quickly than we are so there's a positive spin to this and I truly believe that there is some truth to it so I think humanity is changing at a faster rate than ever before I think we'll realize what the downsides of technology use are and how we can use it to our benefits. Yeah, everybody there was definitely going to be a divide between people who use technology and conscious and awareness ways to be creators on those platforms and then the side of consumers and a more passive engagement with technology. I would like to address that as well that there's actually too many choices and I feel that as well there's too many choices and not just in technology and apps and things that we have that it becomes information overload. At the end, you're you throughout you really give us a lot of hope it's a wonderful read and then your nine super things that you can apply to untether to really turn that crypto night into your superpower and to use it for good and gain back a lot of time and abilities I love the book I only have three more questions for you left and they're selfish they're selfish they're selfish for my listeners. If there was one message you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that had the power to change your life. What would it be your message. Wow distilling everything in one sentence, huh. That's that's not all you could say a couple things that's fine. If there was one thing that I would love people to take away from this book is the power of of working together. I think there's so much power in being responsible for another person. We're so good at being responsible for pets. Right, why don't we, why don't we do a better job of being responsible for each other. I think there's a lot of beauty in that and I think it's it's also at the spirit of our time which is this continuously developing connection that we feel towards each other over the Internet. A conversation like we're having right now would probably not have happened just just five years ago even. You know, so I think there's a beautiful way of connecting with other with other humans we have the tools to do it, and we have the desire to help each other. So, the biggest takeaway and change in our approach to life is ask for help and offer help. I think that's that's so powerful. I love that. What should young innovators in your field, maybe who had tech and were involved in electric vehicles and things be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real impact. Well, I think one of the most critical skills for for younger people is knowing how to program, not necessarily knowing how to program in all languages and being an expert at it but there is a mindset behind programming that is unique. And, and the way that I can best describe this is, you know, I spend most of my life in hardware companies and an apple, you know, is probably a hybrid of hardware and software, but hardware companies, they, they, their main focus is redundance and perfection, because especially with cars it's 10,000 parts coming together in one product. If you mess up a few of those parts, the car might not be able to function properly or it doesn't look the way we want it to look or it's not. It's not going to last for five 1015 years. So, there is a big interest in hardware companies to get it right immediately, and have redundancy in case systems fail. Right. In software, there's a very different approach to how we think about creation. And I think it's a much more human approach to creation, meaning a programmer knows that the only way to get to the goal is by constantly failing at making that goal happen. And in hardware, it's much more, well, we have all those tools necessary to calculate the physics behind this product, and we'll have zero errors when it comes out, that's our goal. With software that's not actually the goal. There's a lot of user testing involved, there's a lot of errors, even when a product comes out, but our ability to iterate and get those errors out quickly is actually a way of thinking about the world, if I start working with an accountability body, I know that we don't necessarily know how to work with each other initially and we'll make some mistakes, but as we make these mistakes, we'll develop as humans and we'll make it better throughout. And that's kind of a software way of thinking about the world and I think every young person should understand what what software developers know which is making errors is progress. Right making errors doesn't make us a bad human errors don't actually exist if you if you're like, if you are thinking about it philosophically failure doesn't exist because failure is part of success and so failure is actually success to a certain degree. You might have answered this last question with that answer. What have you experienced or learned in your journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start journey so far is life or journey of writing this book. Life really, what do I mean what was it boy I wish I wouldn't learn that earlier or a lot of people say that they say it's the journey itself I really needed that to because it taught me so much but sometimes people say oh yeah learn this. Well, I think that the first thing that comes to mind is perfection doesn't exist. Right, all of our journeys are so individual. However, during during educational during this phase of education as a young adult we're being taught that perfection exists you can get 100 score. If you have ace in all your classes perfection is is an illusion created by our educational institutions and so when we come out of it. We still strive for it but the first moment we, you know, we don't get accepted for a certain position or fail at work we realize hey perfection is not actually something that should be striving for I think it's very toxic to strive for perfection so that's I wish I had known 1015 years ago that striving for perfection would not make me happy but what would make me happy is striving for for for achieving my own desires for living out my values that makes me happy. I wish I had written this book 510 years ago but I was still in this mindset of, I need to achieve in this world and I need to perform at the highest level. And I think that's that's counterproductive because what we truly need is people who live out their values people who live out their dreams. The biggest achievements of humanity, all come from people who actually made their dreams happen. That's what we need and I think our smartphones are making that accessible to a degree that was never, never there before like, if I tell this to my grandparents they would laugh at me, because they just didn't have the opportunities to do whatever they truly wanted to do and I'm not saying that most of humanity has that ability right now that that is certainly not true. But I think as every year passes there's a bigger percentage of human humanity who has the privilege to actually make the dreams happen. And when we have that privilege I think it's kind of our duty to go after it. Thank you very much. That's all the questions I have for you unless there's something I mean we've missed a lot your books, big I could go into all the beautiful little stories you tell but I don't want to get too much of it away. Is there anything that we missed that you want the audience to know or listeners to know that we didn't get a touch upon. No, Mark, I think this was this was amazing. I super super appreciate this conversation. Obviously, if the readers or listeners want to know more, they can go on my homepage it's askcini.com, or WWW the untetheredbook.com, they can find out more. I'll let them know when the book comes out and when I'm able to create the community and when the course comes out so I hope your listeners will take advantage of that. Yeah, I'll put all all your links in the show description and drive everybody there I highly recommend it and give us give us some different audio ebook short versions long versions so that we can get it out as many people as possible. Thank you so much it's been absolutely fabulous thanks for letting us inside of your ideas it's been a sheer pleasure and hope we can catch up on your next book or to find out how what the resonance is as it comes out and launch. Thanks so much.