 welcome everybody from every few seconds just to say hello if they're joining and just remind them just to sort of familiarise themselves with the use of collaborates, particularly with the chat as we'd like people to contribute to that. And just to say well, I may as well say it's welcome everyone and please use the chat, introduce yourselves to each other, maybe just say like Imran has where you're from, maybe what your role is and even what your interest is in this particular topic it'd be great to see the range of different interests that people have. Thank you. Okay Gemma perhaps if we need a start now. So lots to get to see today. Oh I'm all wet, I'm all wet on. Good afternoon everybody. Welcome to today's Ault West Midlands webinar on actually colonising learning technologies. My name's Gemma Wutton, I'm an education developer, I work in the College of Learning and Teaching at the University of Wolverhampton and I'm also a member of the Ault West Midlands and Steven Group and we're kind of hooting the event this afternoon. So my main job today is going to be to lead to a lesson and to learn from the wonderful speakers that we've got lined up for you but I'll also be keeping everybody to time so you will see me popping up throughout the afternoon just to keep things ticking along. For me today as well is the Chair of Ault West Midlands, John Cooper Great. John has worked tirelessly behind the scenes to organise the event today along with our other West Midlands Ault West Midlands colleagues, Professor John Traxler and Dr Hal Scott. Huge thank you to them for bringing us all together today. Thanks also to our colleagues at Ault Headquarters who supported us with this event promoting and disseminating it through the Ault Network so that we can reach and collaborate with you all from far and wide. So we should be on the screens now, the agenda for the 15 years webinar. So after a brief welcome from me I'll hand over to Professor John Traxler. He'll be offering some reflections on our first webinar that took place in the autumn and we were really overwhelmed by the response to that first webinar and there were some fantastic things emerging and we're hoping to return to him as that is today. We've then got two brilliant speakers lined up for you and if you were able to join us for the previous webinar then you may remember our speakers from their learning course so we're absolutely thrilled to be able to invite them back today to explore some ideas in some way today. So first up we'll hear from Dr Sonny Australia, Deputy Director of Academic Development and Research at the Center for Learning Technology at Delenbosch University and she'll be exploring how critical the digital pedagogies of equity, diversity and exclusivity can be embedded in online curriculum. We'll then have Dr Casteen Avan, Associate Manager of Open Development and Educator and she'll be talking about incorporating a different way of knowing and ways of being in course design through a reflection on new design of traditional devices. So in the talks Howard will be sharing a panel discussion with our speakers and before I hand the floor for an open forum discussion so have your mics and cameras at ready for later on when we will be expecting you to join in. Howard will be returning to some of our emerging themes from today and from the last webinar. So I'm just going to share on my screen now some of the emerging themes that that came out of our last webinar will also be taking a look at that just now as well so I'd like to really just invite you I think to keep these questions at the forefront of your mind as we go through the afternoon. Sorry Gemma I don't think we can see your screen at the moment I think we'll not sit partway through so you might just need to return to just a few of those visuals. Okay bear with me. I think maybe John was getting himself set up and we lost the show, it's easily done. How's that? Not yet. Thinking about it here we go. There is this yeah got it great thank you. All right so those are those themes that we'd like to kind of just end some questions to keep in mind as we go through. I think Helen's going to pop those into the chat and come back to you later on. One final little bit of how you're thinking. Everybody is a moderator at the moment we've just covered as we've come into Collaborate so we just ask you to keep your cameras turned up for the majority of the events just to save time with others and to mute your microphones during the speakers. However we do encourage you to keep in and join joining with us by posting questions and comments in the chat. Myself and John will be keeping an eye on that throughout the afternoon and we'll get through as many questions as we can within the time we have. Anything that we can't get to today we will take away for consideration for our next event. Respond to any polls as they appear. We'll also be recording today and a link for the recording and a copy of the slides will be made available to you after the event where we've got permission to share them. Finally I'd also like to encourage you to share your insights with the wider community and your network by using our hashtag which is OWM underscore decolonize on all your social media posts. So without further ado I will stop my share and I'll hand over to you John. Okay thank you and I'll start my share. Ah was that worked? Okay to some extent I was just hoping to welcome everyone and kind of recapitulate on the previous session and I guess the general experience was that what started as a innocent or naive question quickly snowballed into a large number of people from a variety of different roles and contexts wanting to join our first webinar and us feeling as though we were having a lot of trouble keeping hold of the tail of the tiger in some respects. This and many people made offers to present at any subsequent events we might organise and obviously two of those are presenting today and that's partly in an attempt to do some justice to their earlier contributions in the first webinar. In terms of recapitulating I suppose for me it was useful to go back to the what seems to be enormous variety and complexity of definitions which kind of embrace so many different dimensions of the challenge in front of us and this is maybe the most kind of global but there are others from a newspaper that's published in Africa and the University of Keel locally in the West Midlands that all are put a slightly different slant on it and I think maybe because I'm concerned about what we say to our managers and our policy makers I mean the people that make a difference in the wider world you know what we say to them in in order to make some change to effect some shift and I think actually it's very good to remind ourselves that this is actually about an enrichment of the entire educational experience for all of the people inside formal education and indeed outside formal education if we have any any levers to press that might bring that about it's about making a far wider and richer selection of experiences available through education and not merely about kind of remediation or remedy or representation so I think I mean I think that's important in itself but it's also an important argument to make to people that actually have the capacity and the resources to make changes and make decisions and make a difference and when I say there are lots of different perspectives these are just some of them I mean I suppose there is for example the legacy of if you like Victorian colonialism across parts of the global south versus the ongoing and current digital neocolonialism of global digital corporations there's then the from a UK perspective or even a European perspective the contrast and the difference between the experiences of colonialism overseas and the comparable experiences within for example the UK or the French or the Belgian perspective where we see community minority communities there that are still living with the legacies of colonialism in the countries where their forebears came from I think it's also important to point out I mean maybe just because so much academic discourse happens in English or happens in American English and that's part of a different problem worthwhile pointing out that actually this is not something that the English have been uniquely responsible for but in the recent past we've had the the Dutch the French the Belgian the Spanish and the Portuguese but also Russian Soviet Tsarist colonialism and imperialism and the same with Ottoman expansion and Arabic expansion in its time so this is not something in one language or the subject of one system but actually it's far more pervasive and widespread and also we see I suppose a kind of microcosm of that in relation to indigenous communities within our own meaning UK British or European indigenous communities within them the Basque the the Breton the samee and others and the Roma the Gypsies travelers and indeed refugees compared to indigenous communities within the white settler nations you know for example the the Cree in America in Canada any number of communities in the USA and so on so I'm just basically pointing out the kind of enormity and the complexity in the different perspectives on this issue and the extent to which it raises questions about how can you I suppose how can you decolonize educational technology or ed tech without worrying about the curriculum in which it's delivered theories of learning and pedagogy and teaching that underpin it the research that underpins the theories and the the tools of that research are the techniques but also then the way in which research is funded the way in which research professionals operate within that research and funding environment the way in which research projects around ed tech are then managed and governed and then the research ethics when we engage with communities unlike our own I mean sorry when I say unlike our own unlike the the white majority so partly it becomes part of a much much wider issue of which decolonizing education and then the university or the university sector the school sector the education sector they all form a part and before I just raised some questions about education technology specifically and the extent to which just day in day out every which way with every which application or service or operating system we're kind of bombarded with terminology gestures icons emojis and so on chosen for us basically from a white western culture and quite possibly oppressive or meaningless to any other culture and how that might have started with textual interaction back in the days of MS DOS but now superseded by a lot of graphical interaction with what were called WIMP interfaces which I think was Windows it I can't remember what it stands for mice and pointers anyway to possibly to cultures for whom Windows and mice might be completely meaningless and I think that's actually just superficial in many respects and we can think about kind of scraping off all of those but I rather suspect that will just reveal a level of the problem down through I know the language is the operating systems the peripherals and so on I mean the keyboard is one example but then specifically we in terms of educational technology we very quickly reach the technologies that seem to be front and center in in terms of much of what we do the virtual learning environment or learning management system canvas Moodle web CT and being forced to ask to what extent those actually just embody western pedagogies and although so I've traveled in Russia and I've traveled in the Middle East and seen educators there trying to as it were appropriate those systems and it can be done I mean you can use web CT in Russia in an entirely different and very didactic lecture-based format and you can do something similar in Palestine and Gaza but you know they are quite conscious that what they're doing is trying to overwrite what was implicit and embodied in the systems they're using yeah so I think it's very difficult to think about decolonizing educational technology without asking about the pedagogies and the theories that get transformed into the practice of educational technology and I think it's also part of us the same comprehensive holistic system when we ask how is how is all of that supported by funding how does the funding how is the funding skewed and biased how does publication the profession dissemination the process of review how does all of that operate in and how does all of that reinforce the kind of colonialism we find elsewhere in the education system and so part of those questions about research methods is partly asking to what extent are the research methods we use interviews and focus groups basically European and pre-digital and how do we go about devising other research methods and this is to some extent a nod to an ongoing project that I'm involved with with Shree futhering and Marguerite Kool and Matt Smith looking at the different aspects of many of these many of these concerns but it just reveals how complex it is when you start dealing with so many diverse communities that are so so different from the established norm within the UK university sector so that was a kind of recapitulation of of where we were at the end of the last session or maybe at the middle of the last session since then I've had the opportunity to read quite a lot and try to write quite a lot and just become very conscious of the complexity and the confusion the amount that's being published the amount of thinking that's being done and how the issue is not just something that we can ever localize on educational technology it seems to be systemic and pervasive it's kind of about hearts and minds as well as about nuts and bolts at a personal level I was very concerned and still am about white male privilege and I don't know how I personally address that apart from owning up to it and hoping that whatever we do empowers other people to take our places if we are part of the white hegemony and I'm quoting Taskin I think that must have been I thought it was from an email but maybe you should copy it somewhere else as well yeah that the university sector is dominated by colonial modes of thinking how do we do something about it and my practical concern as opposed to if you like my personal concern was how do we talk to our managers and policymakers how do we recognize the kind of languages and values that they speak and hear and how do we move them from where they are in fact how do we manage to help them recognize where they are how do we manage to move them in directions they can see the value of oh perfect timing John sorry perfect timing John I was just about to give you a one-minute warning extra bonus point to you today brilliant thank you so much I'm sure there are lots of questions coming in and what we will do is we'll save those for for the panel later on and then we'll move straight on to our first speaker which is Sonja Sonja are you are you ready um yes Gemma thank you so much if you don't mind just sharing sharing my slides that that would be fantastic there we go perfect thank you so much great um 20 minutes thank you to give you a time check when you've got a minute or two left so uh yes please Gemma I'll appreciate that thank you so much great um colleagues thank you so much for your time for the very kind introduction as well and of course also the the invitation um as as as Gemma said um she will she'll obviously also direct the slides today for me as well and Gemma I'm going to start up with the second slide please the next slide uh maybe in starting with with our whole conversation and maybe I'm presenting what I'm sharing today as a as a case study and therefore our position it against the university that I work at at this stage but I also think it's important to also highlight my own positionality uh situated within these debates and contemplations that John so eloquently outlined for us in the beginning of the session I studied and I currently work at a historically advantaged institution in South Africa which has reached many levels of capital so obviously that has an influence uh also the specific lens that I use when when I'm trying to make sense of of these complex concepts and and maybe um also what what what is important here is is maybe also also to acknowledge that that there are many aspects as John highlighted there that that one could focus on in my case specifically is my interest in in pedagogy within under under this broader umbrella of decolonisation of educational technology so I would love to start by sharing how the process so that could mean the engagement with critical digital pedagogy specifically I would start at our institution and I'll start off by by referring back to to the pandemic um much has been said about the pandemic pedagogy which is social and passive and the impacts on our current views of education and teaching and learning but maybe this quote on the screen is for me something that that actually um lingered some lingering questions that I had to hold some of it perhaps not always as eloquent conceptualize that are carried with me during the pandemic and also instigated this whole process of of engagement with critical digital pedagogy maybe just very briefly can there be such a thing as excellent teaching in a challenging world in which the threat of disease and the cessative of social distancing socially warrant a pedagogy pedagogy designed by separation which is obviously a pandemic focus but then the second part can educators rationalize the growth of distance learning while also retaining the intimacy that lies at the heart of social justice praxis do you know if we could move on to the next slide please um while keeping this quote in mind um let me just very briefly outline how our center the center for learning technologies and the broader division for learning and teaching enhancement at our institution started to reflect on our own practices during the pandemic we realized during the pandemic that there was a great need for care and humanizing pedagogies within the online space uh and although at that stage that focus primarily focus was embedded not embedded in critical theory it provided us with a platform to actually to start to explore our own pedagogical practices within this so-called forced time of online engagement and based on our reflections our division wrote a book about our own personal experiences but specifically focused on humanizing pedagogies and also the ethics of key now as we started to further explore these concepts if you can clear that we wanted and needed to move beyond the surface approaches and I think that's what I'm trying to get at in terms of acknowledging the human within the online space but also to delve deeper further in terms of humanizing pedagogies and what it truly represents in our understanding and that led us to further engagement with the work of starting off with the work of pilot Freire and then obviously also other critical theorists Gemma just the next slide please of course in order for us to be able to situate our work we need to acknowledge also where we come from and also in this broader South African context online institutions had to grapple with many processes during the time of the pandemic and also how to move forward in terms of the online specifically but once again what was exacerbated specifically in our case as well was also the plight of our students in our institution but most certainly also in other highly passionate institutions in South Africa and beyond the continent as well now share with you some of these challenges on the slide here once again we don't have time to go through all of these but in terms of the South African context obviously it is clear that we have very much complex and interrelated socioeconomic historical and personal injustices that we're still trying to to address if you focus on a student you also see there that and it speaks to what John also earlier said that in our case very often funding is available for many of our marginalized students but even if they have that funding they struggle to meet the entry requirements of historically advantaged institutions such as the institution that I work at very often they don't have access to cultural capital so they're born into poverty and then of course obviously very often the knowledge of these students what they bring to our education is very obvious often also not acknowledged in the high education context so those are just some of the aspects that we need to grapple with from a South African perspective also from a broader continental perspective channel if we could just move on please there are also some some aspects that that we need to take into consideration for instance you'll see the first part of that slide I've highlighted the renewed interest in blended learning albeit of course it's nothing new or revolutionary it once again places emphasis on the potential and the possible way in which these modes of provision and pedagogical orientations could assist previously disadvantaged institutions to catch up with other high education institutions and I've given you some some examples there as well as we all know it's not as simple as that as I noted also the first part of those slides we have challenges with increased transactional distance very often in terms of contextual responsiveness we tend to have a very light touch or a one-size-fits-all approach which is obviously going against what we try to explore in terms of particular digital pedagogies but then of course is also developing in parallel was was also this whole idea of the the conversations and the hopes in terms of increased automation of the African continent continent and I've made reference to AI and education specifically and the hopes in terms of inclusivity personalization students being able to actually choose their different pathways but then to me a point of concern is the bottom of that slide and something that that also speaks to social justice and critical digital pedagogy that very often these types of concepts as specifically artificial professional intelligence in learning very very often lacks paying attention to political psychological or even philosophical aspects of learning that that is so crucial and so important so colleagues let's quickly have a look at the practical way in which we try to to actually unpack the notion of critical digital pedagogy so so Gemma we can go to the next slide please right it seems if the image is not loading there and no just the previous slide you know sorry it seems if that image is not working there I'll quickly say something about that to me one of the key challenges of in our field specifically is bridging the gap between theory and then also practice to theorize but also then to acknowledge actually and further develop the practical applications of the digital teaching and learning practices at this stage in terms of the theoretical our work is rooted in the work of Bialyphera but then on the other hand and that's that image that I'll share with you but later on which should be on the right hand side is also our search of a translation device that could assist us in understanding the alignment between theory and practice and I would like to draw the work of Diane Rokoma specifically there they provided a conceptual framework that was really called the three pillars and the one pillar is basically looking at our pedagogical orientation so that means it's actually the way in which we believe teaching and learning takes place so in our case that would be critical digital pedagogics and then the second pillar is actually our pedagogical practices those things the actions and I'll refer to some of these practices a bit later on and but then the third pillar is adding on our digital competencies so it brings the digital into that conversation as well so based on on what I've shared now for for me it becomes a constant challenge to actually bridge that gap between our theorizing understanding the theory but then translating it of course via translation a translation device or conceptual framework to practice and how do we how do we then actually do something about what's in our different contexts Jim off we can go to the next slide please there we go thank you so where are we at present in our quest to untangle and to unpack the notion of critical digital pedagogy perhaps it starts with an acknowledgement of the complex entanglement of theory principles and practices has been suggested by the social material perspective for those of you are familiar with that this perspective actually believes that there's a relational ontology world view that argues for equal status in terms of the human and the non-human equal status in our context and in this webinar of course then will be between individuals students and lecturers but then also the digital the digital is there for not secondary but actually remains imperative in our educational relationship now in my mind this perspective could serve as a possible pathway in acknowledging the entanglements and the interactions of both human and non-human entities in our attempt to actually clarify and foreground critical digital pedagogy Jim off we can go to the next slide please but yet once again the question is how does this translate into practice now Freira focused mainly on the disciplinary content well I could it could be argued that we would need to move to a deeper level of engagement the so-called micro processes as well and whether beyond the micro processes it's implied that lectures need to become interested and involved in the development of relationships with in the classroom and how power plays out in the learning environment some of those concepts that we are really touching on in terms of our conversations in terms of the conversation of educational technology dialogue could be viewed as a wealth understanding how to apply critical digital pedagogy by focusing on the communication between lecturers and then also students in the view of Freira it is argued firstly that we need to establish top of a horizontal relationship that is rooted in trust between lecturer and and between the students before we can actually attempt to address external transformational issues as well and perhaps one of the possible ways forward practical way forward is to once again to start to consider the role of digital technology affordances in the quest of embedding a culture of mutual dialogue in the online classroom often the focus remains on the material affordances of a tool what we can and cannot achieve given a particular cohort or learning outcomes and the fourth but perhaps it becomes necessary again to to refocus on the close alignment between the tool in other words the material but then also the intention and in this case then the pedagogical approach do you notice the next slide please another way forward and this is what I would like to propose in addition to the work of Father Freira is also to consider affect in in this whole process increasingly affect an emotion of or grounded as important constituents of interdisciplinary narratives perhaps what is relevant to ask is not only in the digital space how does affect or then emotions relate to loss pain or guilt and others that impact us as lecturers but then most certainly and more importantly also been as students as well I would love to make an argument that we need to consider the entanglement then between affect and pedagogy and that is critical consideration in order for us to delve deeper into these micro actions and the different levels of pedagogical engagement in a way it urges lectures to move away from the embedded constructivist notion of learning towards a more nuanced understanding of the interconnectivity and the dynamic nature of the commission affects and then also the essential simulations and simulations of what we experience the question is there for not just contemplating what we feel in particular situations but also why we feel what we feel and once again thinking from the philosophical from the theory bringing it back down into the practical side of things on the wooden very interesting provides us with some pedagogical considerations when we start to allow affect into the classroom as expected of course we we focus on the design of learning activities that's that's essential but more importantly also it is that lectures could start to consider activities that that illustrate how emotion developed and are instituted in the lived experience of students and it comes back to that first slide that I shared with you with the South African context as well specifically but globally as well the types of knowledge also that students bring to the higher education institution as well it's not it's not also the acknowledgement of affect that that is important of course but also the historical journey of affect in other words the history that preceded the emotions displayed in the classroom and for me this is a crucial element that that one could add to our conversations in terms of pedagogical engagement and and rethinking the notion of pedagogy within the digital classroom but most certainly and more importantly under the umbrella of social justice equity diversity and then of course inclusivity as well a follow-up question would have obviously be then how do we translate this in terms of pedagogical activity pedagogical activities how do we go about in designing learning activities that actually address some of these issues that I've just highlighted as well. Colleagues for me too to compute it's it's my last slide Gemma if we can move on to that slide please. Many many aspects that are very briefly touched on during this session touched on the notion of dialogue aspects such as power relations which which I didn't really unpack and then of course the role of affect that could start the process of understanding critical digital pedagogies. I would like to underline the importance of acknowledging the complexity of of human nature also in relation with with the digital and it speaks to what John also earlier said the it's such a multifaceted construct the the decolonisation of educational technology and maybe I would like to conclude with the quote that that we have on the screen here by a professor Oswald Fattah who is is a honorary professor at Stalambosh University. He argues here that the person is a life multiple, doubling, mimicking, shadowing, shifting, breathing, surviving, inhabiting cracks and adopting bodily tactics. The core of his or her existence is thinking, intellectualising, working adaptively, creatively with knowledges, language, literacy, tools, resources and so forth. Metaphorically the type of university that this all favours is when knowledge and its manifestation in the light of the complex systemic, sociological and cosmological complexities of our humaneness remains a search to become fully human in this world and our search as educationists, as lecturers, academic developers and then also of students is then also in terms of critical digital pedagogies. How do we bring that aspect of humaneness into into our conversations? So conics it's it's in a nutshell what what my thoughts at this stage and as I say this is a this is a developmental process most certainly we don't have all the answers at this stage and most certainly there are different aspects that would need to be further explored but this is where we are from an institutional perspective at this stage in terms of uncovering the notion of our critical digital pedagogies. So thank you so much for your attention and for your time. Thank you Les, thank you Sonia, thank you so much for that really excellent presentation. I was really interested in what you were saying about dialogue and how important that is for the process and I think as educators that really something engaging in that dialogue with our students, with our other colleagues, with our students and he's really really crucial so fantastic there's lots of rounds of applause coming in for you on the on the chat as well. If you've got any questions for Sonia if you could pop those into the chat for us now or if you prefer to kind of stick your hand up use the hand raised button at the bottom of your screen and you can also do it that way. There's a lot to digest in your presentation there was a really interesting comment early on in your talk about cultural capital and and how difficult it can be to separate that from coloniality I don't know whether you've got any thoughts on that or Bethany and who the comment came from as well. I think from from my side perhaps Gemma it is you know that's that's why it was important from my side to actually also highlight my own positionality in this whole process and and I wanted to highlight the fact that that I look at the institution that and we use the term storage advantage institutions in South Africa will start with disadvantage institutions based on the part art era etc and that plays a role in terms of also the capital that we have access to of course and the way in which we had to fix and use the pandemic as maybe the instigator once again we are contributed to a paper by by Moira Chernovich and colleagues in 2020 where we reflected on on the different experiences of our education institutions in South Africa specifically and it was so clear that continuum of different levels of capital and access that we have in an institution and obviously then also at the deeper dimension and of course we took our students that's that's attained through this university's role and one cannot make the assumption fact that the student who is attending a previously advantage institution that it necessarily advantage at that point of time many of our students come from rural areas from communities where there's actually different different way of of experience cultural norms and having to hold the whole notion of acculturation into a previously advantage institution is also something that I think definitely needs to be brought to the forefront. Well we've got a question in from Michael in the chat. Michael Kaye, how do you think we can measure whether an affective turn in a digital classroom has been successful? What does that look like? Michael I was afraid for a question like that in terms of various because obviously I think that is that's that's one of the challenges in terms of of all of these philosophical orientations as well. To be honest with you for me I think it is such a subjective experience the moment when you bring emotion or affect into the classroom it becomes really difficult to to move outside and become objective in our experiences in terms of that. So maybe in terms of success or the way in which we measure it or look at the implications it would I would suggest that we draw on these notions also of our research methodologies that that we most probably also need to reconsider alternative approaches of trying to uncover the way in which we think something is happening and what we define as success then as well so it could be methodologies that we need to rethink but then also very importantly is to rethink what what we define as success in terms of affect specifically which is completely personal and then also subjective. Okay thanks I hope that answers your question Michael if you'd like to add anything by sending on your your mic or your camera then you'd be most welcome and please add another comment in from Kate. Thank you Sonya for providing and it's been my experience that so much has kind of feel very threatened by these ideas because it relates directly to how they understand their role and do you have any recommendations about how you might tackle them? I think it's a very it's a very important comment Kate that that you're making in terms of teaching academics and us working with students and I think it's it's a very much a conceptual more of a paranoia that would need to take place and that that happens over time it's not something that that you do it's one way the one day and in the other day it's something different the way in which we need to think about building relationships of trust a trust between ourselves and with our students as well it's only been in my experience that that we could start to actually further explore these aspects such as dialogue etc and the reality of it is of course that in larger cohorts in larger groups these types of these types of contemplations and ideas will be much harder to implement of course. If I think about the close grad group a smaller group that's perhaps easier in a sense to start to build these ideas across mutual vulnerability you know that those aspects of humanizing pedagogy is creating opportunities for dialogue being aware willing to learn from each other inviting new types of knowledge into the classroom as well not be only being the the expert to all of these things are aspects that I think are challenging and also questions the conventional and the traditional way of how many of us are trained and educated as well as whether it's academics, fathers or whatever we identify with so for me I think it's in my mind it's starting small also with a smaller group and start to build our own confidence in terms of that as well I hope that answers your question. One more quick question from John R number two how do we develop opportunities for staff to reflect on their identity and their practice leading to change slash EDI in the classroom and why do we work there? John thank you for that question I think in my mind and obviously I'll work in the field of academic development I think it's an opportunity or we need to create safe spaces we as staff members whether we are teaching staff whether we are professional support staff it doesn't really matter that that we can start to uncover and engage in conversations of our own positionality and our own identity within these different spaces I think it's only when we start with that particularly reflecting on ourselves as individuals that we'll be able to translate that into our own practice and only if we're comfortable with that probably that would translate into the classroom as well but probably in my mind a possible way of starting this process would be once again smaller groups of staff members and that we start to very slowly start to uncover these different experiences and our identities that we bring to the conversation as well. Excellent thank you for saying that too well we're here more from you later on in the panel but now we're kind of moving on to our second speaker Tosky are you ready to go? Yes can you see my screen fine? Yes absolutely great all right thank you everyone so I'm Dr Tosky and Adam and yeah I've just completed well a few years ago completed my PhD looking at addressing injustices in MOOCs so today I'm going to be presenting a little bit from from that research one specific chapter that focuses on incorporating different ways of knowing and different ways of being into course design so I'm from two different organizations one is open development and education and we focus on the use of evidence and equitable and open practices to make effective change in education in low and middle income countries and I also work with the ed tech hub which goal is to empower people by giving them the evidence that they need to use technology in education so before I actually kick off I also want to acknowledge my positionality and and and I want to do it intentionally because I don't think that positionality is just for white people to do positionality is something about intersectionality and so although I'm a brown Muslim South African woman I also have the opportunity of studying at the University of Cambridge and to be quite honest that has developed my cultural capital and I don't think I would have been here today if I didn't have those networks and connections I also wanted to thank Sonia because the point that she left off with was a perfect segue for my presentation today which draws on these concepts of emotion and aliveness and and humanness in critical pedagogy so to jump straight in the context of my research was the fees must fall on rose must fall movements in South Africa and as Sonia highlighted South Africa is shaded with a historical injustices over time that has led it to be one of the most unequal countries in the world however those inequalities although colonialism and apartheid officially ended those inequalities are still present in the material injustices and epistemic injustices that are evident in university spaces currently the other side of my research then looks at the global online MOOC movement so MOOCs stand for massive open online courses and many South African MOOCs joined this this global movement around 2014-2013 and this is when online education was still quite innovative and niche but then COVID hit and online education became a much more common and mainstream way of of teaching and learning and this public online exacerbated inequality so that's sort of the background of my research so in my presentation today I'm going to be using a few key terms so I thought I'd just explain them so MOOCs massive open online courses the definition of this has really shifted over time to somewhat meaning like it doesn't really have a solid definition but broadly understanding MOOCs are online courses that cater to thousands or hundreds of thousands of students from a broad range of countries and originally it was quite informal supplementary learning but MOOCs have shifted to become more certified and accredited for diplomas for example there's always been this tension around what open means in a MOOC because a lot of MOOCs didn't have content that was reusable and remixable which are the fundamental tenets of what open means and today I'm going to be talking about MOOC designers so the people who create this and this can mean the MOOC facilitator or the instructor but also the tech support and the whole team that supports that process and while I'm going to be talking about MOOCs the lessons that I share are quite relevant across all online and hybrid course teaching and actually quite relevant to in-person teaching as well because although MOOCs cater to a global audience there's also diversity within the classroom in face-to-face teaching and learning that we often don't acknowledge when it's much more obvious when you're looking at a global class. The next thing I'm going to focus on is open educational practices and this looks at the shift from open educational resources to practices which shifts away from just creating and reusing resources but using academic practice such as blogging or tweeting or presenting or pedagogic activities such as critical pedagogy to promote reflection, reusability and collaboration. The next two terms that I touch on, embodiment and epistemology, actually these two terms were in the title of my original title I sent to the team organizing and they told me it was too overwhelming so the next two terms are actually going to be what I'm going to be talking about and explaining in detail throughout this presentation today but just quickly epistemology refers to different theories of knowledge and knowing so this is how we come to determine what is knowledge in the first place. Now in my PhD I researched and looked at a lot of different frameworks from social justice frameworks to decoloniality and a lot of the what I read was sometimes conflicting or different or complementary and so what I did in my PhD was first develop this conceptual framework and it drew in social justice theories that are often rooted from global north understandings of what justice means and then decolonial theories which often were rooted from global south and merged together this dimensions of human injustice. So the three dimensions are material injustices and these focuses on addressing the causes of resource infrastructural geographical and socio-economic inequalities that stem from human hierarchies then you get political and geopolitical injustices that address international and national relations of power that reproduce racial class sexual gender geographic spiritual and linguistic hierarchies and cultural epistemic injustices which is what the the rest of my presentation is going to be focusing on today looks at addressing dominant conceptions of knowledge and the way that this can exclude differing histories values narratives and worldviews. So in my research I examined whose knowledges and what knowledges are forefronted in most and this presentation today is concerned mainly with a lack of epistemic diversity and plurality through the productions of MOOCs. So just to give you a few examples 89% of English repositories of OER come from Europe and North America and only 1% comes from Africa and within the MOOC sphere only 1.7 and 1.1% of MOOC producers are black on Coursera and future learn respectively but like why does this matter right? So for me the reason this matters is that the lack of diversity in MOOC designers or course designers shows a lack of epistemological diversity and what does this mean? This relates to the different ways of knowing and the meaning making and different processes in which we construct what knowledge is and this is based on our embodied distributed and situated cognition of the people who generate this knowledge. So the design and the development of MOOCs is strongly connected to who produces the MOOCs what their identities are what their lived experiences are what teaching philosophies and pedagogies they use and for the rest of the presentation this I'm going to talk about this through the concept of embodiment. So to go through my flow of argument today through this theory of embodiment I'm going to shift thinking of MOOC designers from simply enactors of OER or open educational practices to embodiments of an openness in themselves and this is because in my research I asked MOOC designers how they enact openness in their design and I got a variety of different responses based on people's identities and subjectivities. So that's the process I use I examine the ways in which these MOOC designers enact openness in their design based on their shaping of what openness means and the main finding was that MOOC designers create MOOCs that strongly link to who they are what their value and how they understand the world just as most teaching and learning does it goes through the teacher as a vehicle and from this my call to action is that I argue that MOOC designers from epistemically diverse backgrounds are necessary to counter the dominance of the Winston-centric epistemologies that are evident in MOOCs and the goal here for me is not just representation it's not just about having a color spectrum on a MOOC producer board but it's actually to prevent a digital epistemicide and I define this digital epistemicide as a systematic suppression of marginalized knowledge through digital means and I'll expand on that a bit more. So to just take you through some of my research questions there were two angles to it the philosophical question which is what impact does this embodied distributed and situated cognition of MOOC designers have on the epistemological foundations of MOOCs and then also exploring the relationship between MOOC designers and their praxis of openness so to what extent do MOOC designers enact openness in their design based on their reasoning of what openness means to them and this was all part of my bigger thesis which looked at investigating the considerations that MOOC designers when they use in creating their MOOCs and to see how this whether this matches the needs of the majority of marginalized youth in South Africa. So I'm going to take you through three or four actually different sources that I drew on to understand what embodiment means so the first one is from cognitive science sciences and here Johnson challenges the idea of this rigid separation between the mind and the body cognition and emotion reason and imagination and instead argues that they're inextricably linked with memory emotion languages and lived experiences. This is also the idea of a second nature and particularly the argument that human beings acquire their cognitive capacities by initiation through language and tradition and this is based on not just our lived experiences not just who we are today but on cumulative cultural evolution so the history of our cultures and then this environment has a history. So history owes its form to the activities of human beings which are then conditioned into the development of the mind so it's the cycle between history and informing culture which informs the history of that culture. Now in cognitive sciences although they talked about the concept of embodiment it was somehow talked about a bit neutrally or apolitically but embodiment also features in decolonial thoughts and in decolonial thought Graspugl talks about this saying we always speak from a particular location in power structures no one can escape class, sexual, gender, spiritual, linguistic, geographical and racial hierarchies of the modern colonial and capitalist patriarchal world system and the main point here is a locus of enunciation so this is the geopolitical and the body political location in which someone speaks from and this is never disembodied from from where they are speaking so it's never unlocated and neutral the idea of objectivity is in myth. Now Graspugl also points out the difference between being socially located so being physically in a specific place and have being located epistemically in a location this is an epistemic location and the reason he highlights this is because it was precisely the project of the model modern colonial world system to make subjects that are socially located on the press side of colonial difference to think epistemically like the ones on the dominant side so you might have someone who's maybe positioned in South Africa but that doesn't mean that they're speaking from a South African view they could have adopted more oppressive dominant positions because we're taught to aspire to that. The next thing is critical pedagogy drawing on our previous presenters, so critical pedagogy involves constantly developing this idea for critical consciousness right which is about learning to perceive social political and economic contradictions and take actions to address these oppressive elements in reality. Now there's one aspect in critical pedagogy which is called critical reflexivity and this this concept talked about by Dole recognizes the embodied nature of practitioners of the practitioner's response to the world and Dole argues that educational practice cannot be separated from the essential nature of the practitioner that's continuous reflective critique of the sociocultural world and the external impositions on oneself is needed by the practitioner so note that my argument is not that oh if you come from a place of privilege or power you're no longer allowed to speak or you shouldn't be presenting or talking the idea here is to become critically reflexes of your position and to see how you can shift powers and how you can give up your powers to support others. The last one I wanted to talk about was embodiment in pre-Islamic pedagogy. So here I wanted to draw on the person in the picture called Mirabatul al-Hajj. Mirabatul al-Hajj is a Mauritanian Islamic scholar who to me represents pre-modern Islamic pedagogy here teachers and students from around the world from western institutes institutions as well come and travel to rural parts of Mauritania and studied under his guidance when he was alive. Now the epistemological foundations of this pedagogy are completely different to what we normally understand for example students would just silently be in the presence of this teacher or they would follow him around doing his daily activities and this was counted as valuable learning and this is because one was spiritually blessed by his presence. Here the connection between the student and the teacher isn't one of the mind it's one of the heart and of the soul and the teacher is not seen as the source of knowledge or the facilitator of this knowledge but the embodiment of the knowledge. So when we learn about this it's like the teacher the who the teacher is in character is more valuable than the content that they are teaching so it's rarely about him embodying what he talks about and when you sit with him it might be that he's actually more knowledgeable than the source of knowledge in a book so he might actually correct you on that. So the reason I also want to bring this up is because of this idea of adverse incorporation when we bring things onto the digital online space how would how on earth would you bring this type of pedagogy into a digital online space of openness. So it's really also looking at when and how things can't actually where local and indigenous knowledges can't be brought in to this virtual way of teaching and learning. Now moving on to the findings and the more practical stuff in my research is looking at the different ways that the MOOC designers that I interviewed embodied openness based on different aspects of their character or their identity so they lived experiences. So I'm going to take you quickly through four of these so their personal background their race, religion, gender, location and heritage professional backgrounds which feels they were from life experiences whatever privileges or hardships they dealt with and political inclinations. I have many examples but today I've just chosen a few so the first one is openness through respecting different cultures. So Nenai says I think because it is such a visual thing and she's talking about MOOC here you need to pay attention to the visual so in my culture you find that a woman who is married covers her hair so for some segments of this MOOC I covered my hair because I had to portray that I'm a married woman and a married woman for my place covers her hair because and the reason she did this is because when you reach to another audience that feels yes she understands what she is and how she's doing this. So Nenai accommodates for culture in two ways first she takes into account the role that the visual and the body plays in making these online videos for MOOCs and Chika recognizes that the participants the target audience that she wants to reach prefers for a woman to cover her hair with a head wrap and she accommodates for this by making these cultural preferences. Secondly she is a married woman from that culture and covering her hair gives her respect and authority because she's respecting the traditional practices and this is quite interesting because in the second point it's also something that has to do with her being this black African female for example if she was a European white lady the same expectations might not be put on her so understanding that who she is really impacts how she needs to be presented in this. The next one is about openness in terms of academic background and here we have Anna who is an anthropologist and she emphasizes this idea of history and how sorry she says very few of MOOCs have been co-created with anybody from the south so she's very focused on on people and the geopolitics. It's unidirectional it's not very interactive and some of them but sorry but the majority of them were just like here here's this wonderful MIT stuff please use it so the idea is a sort of unidirectional transfer that she acknowledges as lacking openness because of this. Francois who's a mathematics teacher looks at openness as a public license in Creative Commons. Ahmed who is a philosophy teacher talks about pedagogy and critical pedagogy again where students can articulate their voices where they come to speak and where students speak their minds just the way he speaks is so philosophical and then we have Victor who's from academic supports and he says our job is to improve access to those who are disadvantaged so the MOOC is based very much on on that in that we deal with issues of identity language culture and identity and David who is in health sciences merges us with the idea of rural health and this whole ability to access health services and he looks at openness through that paradigm. So there's a strong correlation between the MOOC designer's profession and the understanding of what openness means so let's finding that one that one's profession interrelates with with their worldview is critical to highlight but why is this critical to highlight right so when you have MOOC designers and support teams that are of one background let's say a bunch of machinations come together to make a course they don't get input from other disciplines and that means that their understanding of openness and perspectives in the course can be limited so it's really important to to bring disciplines and have a time's disciplinary approach. The next one is political influences and so Anna who comes from a Marxist background talks about the decontextualization of things and how knowledge and history is really important in in understanding openness and different perspectives. Francois who comes from a more left-wing thought talks about social justice but he also talks about the idea that I don't think that supplying online courses could remotely replace the inequalities we have in in the school system in South Africa we still have apartheid so for him he's focusing a lot on material injustices and then lastly the last quote says so and the last person is from the fees must fall movement and so he says okay so while you're interested in more of these IT aspects of who can access and who can't before we talk about access we need to talk about disturbance and resistance of the status quo so for him before Moocs can address issues of access power imbalances need to be addressed first. Now just just saying a bit. All right let me skip over these last few slides and just move on to my summary so Mooc the idea of this whole presentation was that Mooc designers create Moocs that strongly link to who they are what their value and how they understand the world and openness is understood and implemented differently by Mooc designers based on their locations, histories, subjectivities, personality, character and this is what I've termed embodiment so as a way in which one in which openness is understood impacts the way that one creates a Mooc it's really important to incorporate a diversity and difference of Mooc designers so Mooc designers from different cultures value systems and epistemologies and diversity does not just mean inclusion through assimilation and homogenization of cultures into one by truly embracing differences in ways of knowing and ways of being and so in conclusion I think my presentation has has presented these contested views from the margins and broadened conventional understandings of openness that have shaped dominant epistemologies and for me it's the fear if there's one take home message it's the fear of digital of a digital epistemicide so failing to include these different ways of knowing amplifies this concern where only the dominant European epistemology survive due to open practices that fail to include different voices from the periphery and this one last thing to note is that this entire research was premised on this conceptualizing of embodiment through lived and bodily experiences but there's an entire field of embodiment that also focuses on the physical and the kinesthetic aspects of learning through movement and gaze and touch and and talk speech all of this together and these are things that still can't be represented through teaching and learning through an online medium and so that's something for us to think about that as we shift online what ways of learning and knowing and being are being eradicated thank you sorry for going over time no that's brilliant thank you ever so much Chessy and that's wonderful we are going to move quite quickly to the panel because we've got about 15 minutes left before the end but I will just highlight there was a really fascinating question from about the modes of learning which is storytelling and all spoken words being incorporated into the virtual realm with the same effect as other established modal learning methods I don't know if you've got a quick comment on that before we move to Howard and the panel okay can you just repeat that again please I didn't get the question it's about different modes of learning which is storytelling and spoken word in the virtual realm yes yes yes and I think those are definitely important to incorporate I have a whole other presentation which I can put in the link that talks about these different practical approaches to decolonizing learning design and I can share that as well that's excellent thanks so much yes please do share and so now I'm going to hand over to the next person on our agenda which is our panel discussion with Sonia Tafkin John Traxler and it will be expertly chaired by Howard Scott about 15 minutes left for this Howard that's all right with you right I'm not sure if you can hear me or see me well where to start that's you know we've already got a range of very challenging questions and I think that's the important thing we're all here to learn and I would say that such important research challenges us to be uncomfortable and forces to think about things in a different way especially those of us in positions of privilege I'd start with if I might just start with some of the questions that were sent to us as discussion points and I think there's one that really stands out these were provided by Sonia and Tafkin and Sonia asks so I put this to those on the panel but everybody in attendance as well and I'll actually put it into the chat in fact but the question is from Sonia and it's which dimensions of critical digital pedagogy do we see as important in bringing the two worlds together the two worlds of equality and diversity and inclusion and rapid developments in technology any thoughts I'm happy to jump in first oh I think I think for me it's it's what I presented on in terms of the concept of reflexivity critical reflexivity because that is that allows for people to share the power in a room so critical respect respectivity easily even put puts the teacher at a point where the learners can question and challenge them because you're learning from from the collective rather than being the source of knowledge in a classroom so I think that idea is comes across as strong for me great thank you John I think I'm sorry John I think I agree with Tafkin years well in terms of being a teacher or teaching academic is is that willingness to as I said previously to critically reflect of course but but then to take that forward is is the next step the the learnings what what we've learned about ourselves what we've learned about our own positionality within this teaching learning assessment environment that that we live in and work in as well and how that translates then to to the way in which we engage with our students in order to start to build that that that relationship of trust mutual vulnerability mutual respect etc etc and I think sorry I'd agree with all of that and my concern is actually a worry about the extent to which we as teachers are partly constrained by the culture of our students but obviously also the culture and the regulations of our institutions and possibly the way in which they reflect wider society societal constraints and in some sense is that harks back to my earlier concern about how do we make this make sense to the people that manage our institutions that's interesting I was thinking before about this word autotelic which I can't pronounce the name I'm afraid an Eastern European writer I'll post it in the chat but he talks about the autotelic purpose of using technology as being in the West very kind of almost selfish like it has its own reward I think you're on mute John if you're sorry so in terms of how that relates to the conversation our pedagogies are somehow very very kind of you know it's about the individual it's and it reflects the kind of individualism of the West and you know everything is done for the self perhaps rather than the community that we might see and that kind of you know problems problem solving or knowledge sharing in order to solve problems or doing things for their own sake is somehow relevant with this okay well any other points from the participants or as I'll go back to the questions well partly sorry even when you say sorry now I can't say autotelic no sorry forget it autotelic yes I mean I I don't want to sound anti-academic and in fact I mean certainly amongst several and many other people I love reading what Taskein writes and it's quite intoxicating if you see what I mean but then worry about how that how some of our discussions can both distance us from colleagues in other disciplines where you know decolonialism if you like needs to happen just as much as it does in our disciplines and again how it creates a distance again sorry I keep coming back to this a distance between us and our managers or our politicians or our institutions and I think we need I mean maybe it's just an ongoing concern about academia you know the extent to which we're really good at talking to each other and not so good at talking to anyone else and so I think there's a lot of work to be done translating this into the feel like the value systems I mean it's a bit about means and ends the value systems of other communities that have influence on what we do I think just to build on what John said I think it's also important to know that the colonial movements started in the political arena and only have recently come into the academic space I mean decolonization was was a very political act and within the South African history within the last decade the this movement started from students on the ground protesting right so so understanding that it actually started in the real world and now has become academicized and sort of coined in terms of you know famous authors that we would cite but actually it is real lived experiences of people and I agree that we need to take it back to those students who who speak from a collective voice rather than individual academic voices I think that remark kind of plays both ways because you're absolutely correct in saying it comes from political movement amongst students but that would have been for example the case in South Africa or in Oxford in the UK and maybe we ought to think about the mechanisms by which we exploit other such public manifestations of colonialism I'm thinking about the kind of repatriations movement of artists of artifacts you know maybe we ought to be saying yeah but there's a resonance here with educational technology if you like or the reparations movement rising in the Caribbean and saying yeah there's a resonance here with educational technology can you see that you know the outside world is trying to tell us something any response because we're a little short of time I'd like to bring in the discussion point from tasking it relates as well it was the discussion point you sent in advance and I've done the European thing of perhaps twisting your words into a question because you said you weren't sure that it was a question that we'd asked for so I hope this reflects the point that you've made and I think it fits with what we're talking about again bringing it back to technology as well but my thinking when I was listening was somehow that you know technologies are advancing at such a fast rate as they always do and you know policy doesn't keep up with them regulation doesn't keep up with them if it should so how do we be proactive rather than reactive in designing into new spaces some of the principles and I think this is kind of what you're driving at here as well about the decision making being more inclusive the questions in the chapter. Sorry I've now gone off at a tangent and slightly worry about the way in which we're happily talking about educational technology and I guess that means technology is devoted to education within the formal education systems and could quite easily neglect the extent to which people use their own technologies to generate ideas and discussion and opinions and images and information you know thinking about what happens in social media you know which is kind of learning but not as we know it or not as we choose to recognize it with an academic context and actually that all of that is built on platforms like I don't know Google Google Scholar YouTube you know the artificial intelligence underneath those things you know the list is quite long and the literature is is becoming larger about how all of those systems are skewed in one direction and not in another you know and how they perpetuate all sorts of implicit and all unconscious biases so I kind of worry that you know educational technology within the education sector might be kind of moving the deck chairs around on the on the Titanic although admittedly when Taskeen talks about MOOCs that that's a kind of bridge across from the formal to the informal but I still worry about the you know the extent to which those more pervasive digital systems are embodying that the challenge we're trying to meet Sonia Taskeen I just folding off what John said I think I like the point he is also about social media and terms of ways in which tools or ed tech can be used as tools for subversion so how can you get the the the marginalized voices to be heard and we've seen many a times like movements like that size matter and others have used technologies as tools for emancipation so it's almost like shifting like looking at how algorithms or things can can you know be racist but then on the other side if we can use them correctly we can also use them to fight for justice as well yeah I agree with with both comments here I think it's it's very often and perhaps that's the easy way in for me in terms of rather than exploring bit of logical approaches as opposed to asking these lot this very important broader question in terms of the design of technology etc what we have been how can you use it to the benefit of our students of to the way upgrading new knowledge of opening up a crossing boundaries the way in which we decide how to use these tools and that's why I also refer to the affordances of tools again something a concept that we've been using for ages but to really bring it into alignment with clearly demarcated and decided on pedagogical approaches and having an end goal in mind with that by not only merely using it for the sake of it but but they also to address some of these issues as you've rightly mentioned at asking as well just to pick up on something John has offered in the chat panel about the perhaps the need for global representation in designing new technologies we have web standards in some areas but most the uncertainty about how to build for a broad audience of users I think that's a good point you know the the need for digital literacy is perhaps not based on the kind of affordances that we understand in the global law for Western suited to our cultures but affordances that reflect local contexts perhaps thank you excellent well I'm sorry to jump in I'm sure we could all listen to you all say cool day and please everybody do show your appreciation for our panel in whichever way you choose and please thank you to you all everyone tasking Sonia, John and our expert chair and Howard just to wrap up today's event I'd just like to take a moment just to think about our next step here so hopefully our slides should just be popping up for you now clearly there's a lot more work to do lots more themes to explore and here at Alt-West Midlands we are planning to hold a third event in the series and we have a proposed date of the 29th of June which is a Wednesday it will be at the same time as today's event wherever in the world you are and we're hoping to have more of a virtual workshop type focus and for the next event and we can typically have a couple of speakers lined up and we'd like to explore the more practical side of this and with that in mind we would like to invite expressions of interest for anyone who is interested in contributing to the event or potentially hosting the next event so please do drop an email to us and we'll pop some contact details in the chat for you and also do look out for booking information with everything confirmed and I'm just going to also do a quick reminder Alt-C 22 and the Corporate of the Postal Service is now open so if you've got something that you would like to submit for the Alt-C office at the 6th to the 8th of September at the Manchester and the deadline for submission at the 31st of May so you've got a few days left to talk to someone today if you're very desire. John, John Cooper today you've been very quiet today is there anything that you would like to add before we wrap up? Nothing more to add now I was just searching for some emails to add them to the chat to give some contacts details for everyone if they want to share some contributions for the next session I just want to as chair of this group just to say a huge thank you to our speakers we've done a wonderful job today great presentations and discussions and to John and to Gemma as well and Howard for hosting such wonderful sessions so thank you everyone really really pleased with this and look forward to the next session so if anybody does want to contribute do reach out to myself I think I emailed lots of people the other day it's just John Cooper's way to gmail.com or to John Tracks so there's his email address as well so there's no hiding for any of us please do offer something we'd love to get as many people involved as possible and this was very much the third session but myself and John talked about this probably about almost a year ago now all about the practical next steps so we've heard about sort of the issues and how different people are thinking about things but we want to now sort of look to see how as a group we might be able to work together or identify materials that are already starting to solve some of these problems. John do you want to say final word or two? No no I'm happy to leave it as an un-final word in the sense that there's so much going on in communities to pursue it in all sorts of different directions I just think kind of the more the better and I'm learning loads and happy to carry on with that. Wonderful well thank you very much everyone look forward to seeing you again on the 29th of June look forward to seeing lots of emails with offers of contributions and have a great few months and thank you again take care everyone bye bye thank you thank you everyone bye bye