 So welcome everyone to author meets reader. My name is Sarah everts and I'm a prof in the journalism department at Carlton University And I'm stepping in as a host for Jonathan Malloy. I'm pinch hitting because he's away. He normally emcees author meets reader Um, I would like to point out though that in terms of posting This place this land this space It's actually um Not ours to host But it's the the peoples of the Anishinaabe Algonquin nation, right? So Carlton University My home possibly yours this pub. It's unseated and unsurrendered territory So I do think it's like worth reflecting on this regularly and deeply and I'm really glad that tonight We're going to be talking about decolonizing An important part of our society when that's close to my heart namely journalism But before we get to that I have three housekeeping announcements The first is that author meets reader If this is your first time it's a showcase from the Faculty of Public Affairs where Folks who are researchers in our faculty from journalism from law from political science get to talk about their Really cool research and it happens every last Thursday of the month And so the next one is next Thursday on the auspicious day of February 29th Um, that's number one number two free food. Um, everybody's favorite topic or at least mine Um, there is a little white piece of paper on your table. We would like to offer you a complimentary snack Um, so it's like an appetizer if you want that Just fill it out and give it to your server and they will take care of that thirdly octopus books has copy of this incredible book and You can buy it at the end maybe get dunk into sign it and Oh wait, there's four things last but really really really not least The way things are going to go this evening is there's going to be a moderated conversation for about 45 minutes Then you will have a chance to ask questions So, um, that will be in the latter part for about half an hour and things will wrap up at around seven But you're welcome to stick around and chit chat. Um thereafter So now I have the best part which is to introduce these two lovely people on stage Very close to me is our moderator who is Jorge Barra He is an award-winning journalist with cbc in the investigative unit He's reported nationally internationally, but we are super fortunate that he is based now in Ottawa And then further afield is our esteemed author Duncan mccue Whose voice and presence has been ubiquitous ubiquitous on cbc for decades Um, he's been a host. Uh, he's been a reporter correspondent on all sorts of programs You've heard him on cross-country checkup the national the current Um, and we are enormously chuffed that he joined Carlton University last year. Um, and is the professor of um indigenous journalism And storytelling and we're gonna be listening to him talk about his really interesting book called Decolonizing journalism a guide to reporting on indigenous communities. And so Um, I'm gonna exit the stage so that these gentlemen can have a really interesting conversation. So let's welcome them Well, thank you so much and you know, carly university's gain is cbc and canada's law. Oh my goodness Um, so yeah, I know you guys are really lucky to have them And uh, it's great to be able to talk about Your textbook and you know, the whole issue of korean media's relationship with uh indigenous communities and Just the stars Well before you start, okay, can I can I just say on the canine way, uh, uh, on quidance and dish in the casse my inganne do them Chippewa's a georgina island in door jippa, uh, anishinaabe and all Um, who's and all? uh, gwis and all in jusquadet and all um uh Meanwhile in basquim and all um Miigwatch, uh ayayong, uh, mampi kinegwea, uh kitchen and um, uh, what men cook Um, and and for those of you who sorry to jump in there, but but but uh for those of you who are rusty on your nishinaabe one um What I said was my name and my clan uh, where i'm from uh in a traditional way that that we greet ourselves amongst our people and and you are You are a part of our our group here in our circle this evening. And so I wanted to greet you in the same way I said that i'm a father. I'm a son. Uh, i'm a partner And a hockey player too. Not a very good one. Yeah, but but uh, I'm just so happy that you're you made the journey this evening It's icy out there Uh, and so to share this time with you is very special to me and to orje as well So thank you so much for being here this evening And that was a setup to show you how the differences and approaches to Journalism and and this whole issue of how you would Approach something it wasn't actually set up But actually was I was just gonna start on but You actually slowed it down right and And spoke in your language and spoke about who you are and you welcome people into the circle um where Our general approach to when we think of news just to go in there sit down stick the mic in it. Let's go so like How do you feel about the death in your you know, yes This was a different so I so I think this goes and oh go ahead even outside. You sound good Well, I'm glad it brought you in Um, well Is journalism the structure of the way that we approach it the way it's done. Is that in itself intrinsically colonial? Wow start off with the easy questions are hey, holy cow. You're supposed to throw speed with a softball at the beginning Well, it's So Tristan, I'll tell you a story about the title of the book uh tristan atone Who uh is a good friend of mine? Was the president of the the native american journalist association now the indigenous journalist association Uh, I interviewed him because I wanted to include different journalists perspectives On this question of decolonizing journalism And so there's these wonderful interviews in the book with nine different journalists Tristan is one of them and at the end of the conversation. He says but Why are you calling it decolonizing journalism and like like What what's with the title? And I said well what you don't like the title. He says we're not decolonizing journalism He said we're just doing some window dressing right now. He said, you know, we may be doing Seeking some equity and hiring in the newsrooms Maybe we're trying to to have a checklist when it comes to the content and the indigenous content in our in our lineups He said we're not talking about blowing up journalism right now. That's not what's happening with this reckoning And he said if you're really talking about decolonizing journalism, then maybe what you're what what we should the conversation we should be having is The way that the the indigenous people amongst ourselves Have been truth tellers and and and the way that that our processes of storytelling and truth telling Have have served our communities But that's not the conversation that we're having. We're having a conversation about how to You know include more indigenous people Uh in the news media says Tristan but So so was there did did we have you know prior In in prior to contact did we have newspapers and six o'clock newscasts and all that kind of thing? Maybe not, but we certainly had storytelling and and a process for truth telling And and that was very much part of our community. We had amongst the nishnabek You know, it is it is well known that we would have people who were selected Uh specifically to take the the important news To other communities runners messengers who would go to other communities be accepted as As messengers honored and welcomed Where they would deliver the news of the ogumuk the chiefs to To other leaders from other communities. So we had a process of journalism Is is that what we're talking about when we say decolonizing journalism? Maybe not, you know returning to that form in this day and age. No, maybe not But I to answer Tristan's question I believe that that when Uh, I speak with with indigenous journalists like brett forrester. Who's here? I'm so glad from cbc indigenous here today I know that you worked with the cbc indigenous unit for so long The work that indigenous journalists are doing now Is fundamentally changing the approach Uh of the canadian news media and and the journalism standards and practices as we know it today And and to just use a couple of examples whether it is, uh The way that we approach communities Right like so you talked about coming in and just sitting down and firing questions at somebody In an in an indigenous setting that may not be the best beginning approach Uh getting to know someone building a relationship of trust takes time Um and so that's something that I see my indigenous colleagues doing on a regular basis is saying to our our senior editors Yeah, I do it. I can't get this on the air by three o'clock because I'm going to do damage to the relationship with a community If I do that I'm not saying that I I can't file this at three. Of course I can I'm saying that there's a lot. There's a way that we need to act when we when we work with these communities Um or trauma-informed journalism, uh, you know Uh my colleague Matthew Pearson is here, uh from carlton and he has done incredible work with regard to trauma-informed journalism But he's drawing on so much work that indigenous journalists like brandy mooran and Uh connie walker are doing in terms of teaching us how we should be cheap treating The subjects of our stories who experience trauma. So I think I think that we are in fact Decolonizing journalism by by bringing indigenous cultural practices into the way That we envision storytelling and truth telling in a contemporary in 2023 as indigenous peoples In your in your textbook though, you spend a lot of some time Providing advice on navigating The system and the structure right you talk about there's this one Seeing where reporter is dispatched to community And the minister's supposed to make an announcement, but there's like 20 minutes of speeches before the minister even gets to his announcement and What do you do? So you're actually, you know, your your recommendations are how to work around and in spite of the structures in the system It's like the system isn't made for Giving that space to letting a reporter go and make a relationship. So I'm just wondering is the the structure of The structure that is set up in a newsroom In in and of itself is a hindrance to your Your average reporter in a newsroom has to cover the community Uh to actually making those relationships Is is there a structural problem with with how journalism is is currently done? Of course there is and and the deadlines are part of it. The deadlines are part of it, but but I don't know that that's necessarily um, the the the the clash of Indian time as I refer to it in the book and that's something that indigenous people can say but I don't advise non-indigenous people to go around saying all the time Uh, but but indian time is real and I do this in my class. I ask I ask student, you know students Have you heard of indian time? And and some of them put up their hands But but then they also volunteer that that there are things such as jamaican time or island time or Middle eastern time. Uh, there are different cultural conceptions of time Um Which and and those that clashes with newsroom for sure Uh, and and so yes the advice in the book is how to work around that as as a journalist but but The thing that that I think goes through my head as you ask that question is that indigenous people are Again in 2023 indigenous people are not like the rest of the country. They want to know now They want to know now if the forest fire is is is encroaching upon the highway that they're trying to get out of They want to know now if you know, someone has caught the fellow that is rampaging their community Uh with a knife They want to know now what the minister said about The funding arrangements for housing So so we're caught in again indigenous people We code switch it's it's it's necessary being a minority within your within your own homeland It's necessary that indigenous people code switch And and understand That could the dominant culture And and the conception of time And and and the world that we work within when i'm in the city of ottawa Showing up at iran's pub may not be the same conception of time that I have when I go to the medeo and lodge at wikwemekong But I but I can operate Comfortably in both environments and that's what i'm suggesting to to journalists or any other People who are working with community indigenous communities, whether it's in government policy or whether it's as a writer Is that you need to be able to adapt? the the The cultural expectations Uh of and i'm going to say just quotations the white man's world With the community that you're working with in the indigenous community If that makes sense. Yeah, and and like going through going through the the book and and and you know the advice you give and and I just Given the context when this was happening You know what's happened in the last couple days. You have you know Tucker Carlson, you know drawing so many people and and and there's this whole discussion around Journalism and crisis Is the approach To dealing with indigenous communities. Is that a way to help? maybe change journalism to adapt to the times just People have more seem to have more willingness to sit through a youtube video for an hour than we we thought in newsrooms in terms of attention spans Well, I but that's what this is why I say that that those of us who are working in indigenous communities now and and trying to do so In a way that shares shares the stories that have been so so long been silent and and and untold We're teaching the rest of the of of The folks in the newsroom Lessons that I think will would would help restore trust in journalism And and like people often ask me about this textbook like you okay, how do we boil it down? What's what's what's the lesson that that I should learn? But and I say it all boils down to one thing respect You know treat your story subjects with respect to treat your story with respect Um, which is something that indigenous peoples Unfortunately have not been treated uh with for so long in this country Uh, there's a long line of of people, you know, I may be a journalist just coming to seek a story and saying how you know Tell me your story. How does it feel being quite genuine and when we hit a barrier when we hit a wall Many journalists get frustrated and say, ah, you know This is it's impossible to tell stories about these people or this community But but there's a long long history of outsiders coming into indigenous communities and saying, you know I want to tell your story. I want to share your art. I want to Study your people and then taking stuff away And and and journalists are just the latest in a long line of that and that's what we're experiencing when we go in and and people You know put up that wall What what I am suggesting is that journalists need to act with respect and and so When I tell people who are not journalists that they say, well, shouldn't you be treating everybody with respect? And of course we should of course we should But because of the way that the the industry has evolved the incredible pressure and timelines that were on this 24 hour 24 7 news cycle um We we get into Scenario where we don't treat people with respect where we where we race into their lives Take away things and without without really asking properly Uh, let's let's say that again without really asking properly. What does that mean? What is that? Well, so we we have journalism standards and practices about getting consent. No, I mean, I hope no no journalist That that is worth their salt in this country would would go about duplicitously recording people And and putting them on the air, you know, but most most of my colleagues are are are hard working ethical Uh people who who uh who want to do good, you know, they they believe in the power of of journalism To to inform and educate and and and make change. Most of my colleagues are like that But the the standards and practices that have evolved in journalism uh Encourage us encourage us to to to get consent In in very simplistic ways that don't really necessarily consider So the the the longer game Or how our actions may be impacting someone And so yes, I can do an interview on public property and take a picture of of anybody that I can see as far as the I can see but but um Well, we have the the uh the ethic of minimizing harm I think perhaps that is that is an ethic that we don't exercise with enough caution I think I think our bar for minimizing harm With regard to the stories that we tell is perhaps a little lower than most people would like Which is why people get so uncomfortable when a journalist shows up um There's also of course the very and and you represent the finest tradition of this the very important tradition of investigative journalism and and and going To dark places that that other people would rather not see And ever since Watergate everybody wants to to to break the story the deep throat gave them, right? But not every story is that But we all treat it. We all treat uh treat those news events of every day As as if it's it's us against them Uh that being the people that were were were engaging with When in fact, I think it would be better if we if we worked harder to build Relationships with the people that we're telling our stories about if that if that makes sense Yeah, I mean personally After spending, you know seven years at 80 ptn original people's television network and mark blackburn was my boss there and then with the cbc indigenous unit and and actually applying The things that you discuss here in other communities Um, it a more a more humble and patient type of journalism. Let me stop you there humble I mean how walk about the humble wapakisha christ talks about that and when wapakisha christ told me that I mean I that was the the the the the heading of of his chapter I was like How often do you hear the word humble in a newsroom? Not very often. I mean, I mean it is a place and again, I love my colleagues But but there's a certain amount of ego involved when when you uh, you know Put your byline on something when you put your face on the air and start talking You have to have a healthy amount of ego to say I have a story to tell folks and it's important You know sit and listen. So I everybody needs a healthy amount of ego But but balancing that with humility as wapakisha christ Shared with me in in the book That's an important. That's that's an important anishinaab lesson. That's one of our grandfather teachings amongst the anishinaabic That's that and that's why I say I'm speaking from an anishinaabic perspective here perhaps not not the same one as my whole anishinaabic brothers and sisters but but but humility To bring that into your work into your practice is to living the way that gizhi manna They'll hold us the lessons that he has lived lived us and taught us to live minimal lots of them They're the good life. I can bring that into my work and still be an effective journalist And I just want to we will get into this. I'll ask you specifically about the Canada newsrooms Indigenous coverage of indigenous but I just want to get back to this this issue because I've been I've been thinking a lot about the loss the erosion of trust that mainstreamed journalists institutions are facing. Yeah, cbc you and everybody. Yeah, and and You know, what is the answer to that? What how what what how much of it is our fault as? institutions as journalists and I think I think a lot of it is as our fault and Going through this and and and having I was just wondering is there a roadmap here? to Reimagining what it means to be a journalist more a slower More patient type of So I'm so glad that you accepted the invitation to sit and talk with me because I wanted to have this conversation with you because you're so smart and and And are asking these great questions but I I think it has been my experience That journalists are afraid that that if we start to act with respect If we start to act in humble ways if if if we restore some of the consent If the informed consent isn't just a one-off event, but it is Something that lasts over a period of time and that a storytelling subject has an opportunity to actually pull out of a story After they've already agreed to do that When you start to talk about these things with with journalists, they get very fearful and they say, how will we ever get news on the air? You know, how will we ever do those difficult investigative stories? Right? Are we just going to tell nice fluffy PR stories about communities? But it hasn't been my experience working with indigenous communities Not when it doesn't stop me and it has certainly hasn't stopped you from telling hard stories about communities about hard truths whether it is about You know, what the the the human smuggling that you've so aptly reported on adakwasasne Whether it is about indigenous women the the the crisis of violence against indigenous women in this country When we go to our people and say we need to tell these stories. They're ugly. They're not pretty We need to tell these stories and there may be bad guys within our midst who we need to expose My experience has not been that people say, no, no, no, you can't tell people that No, no You know, that's not been my experience the first time that I ever did a quote investigative story uh about First nation was a financial accountability guy dropped off a Box of papers that I was not qualified to understand with numbers And and and many many things he said our chief is so corrupt He said you got to do a story and and so I went to someone who was more qualified to understand it and said Yeah, that guy's pretty corrupt and so we ended up doing a story and going and the The the the head of the community Uh said you can't come Uh, they their lawyers, uh sent us a letter saying you're not allowed on the reserve Which is true. I mean, you know An Indian reserve is private property. Uh, so you can be fine for trespass But there's a loophole if you're invited in by a band member then yes You can actually go on there's uh, but but you know, um So so all of these things but when I finally filed that story I was and I was a young cub reporter at that point. I thought oh my god, uh You know, I was sitting there went to air and I thought and the phone started ringing And I just thought People are going to think I'm an apple I'm a trader. I'm a turncoat. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm exposing all this dirty laundry of our own communities And the first call was hi. I'm from XYZ up in northern bc Can you come to my community? And then I put it down and then the next call was hi from that in the interior bc Can you come to my community? Hi, I'm from the coast. Can you come to my community? I got call after call after call Our people want to know the truth And and just like like other canadians do and that's why we turn to journalists That's the expertise that we have that process of fact verification That process of evidence-based You know, we're not fake news. That's what we're trying to fight back against We need to let people and but our approach Our approach does us disservice When the news trucks show up You know, a lot of people run away because of the way that we have we have Fashioned ourselves leading with the camera lens. Yeah Yeah, man Like like like to the again Wabageshik's advice has a vj as a cameraman was there are times when I didn't turn the camera on There are times when I pointed the camera at the ground to let people know that I'm not rolling right now But like help people understand that that there that we don't need to record everything all the time Just because it's our right our legal right to do so as it is our legal right to do so We're not breaking any canadian laws, but we maybe you know, we may be operating in a way that that makes us very unpleasant just Just to stay on this theme a little more also the You know the discussions around You know that that's where word objectivity the view from nowhere And and being conscious Of what you don't know and your own biases because you know you have with your students you have these exercises, you know If I you say the word and what what does this come to mind say this what does it come to mind? So so you you challenge Student journalists to to look inward Why should that just stop there what that is a process for all journalists in every single situation? I just think that's an interesting approach where you're you're constantly checking your own biases You know the view from nowhere doesn't exist And i'm just wondering if there's this what do you think of this this Actually being conscious of that and and being transparent about it at the same time There's also this demand out there where they think all journalists are biased. You can't believe them So even though those same people I think would react positively to journalists being transparent because they seem to embrace those who are wearing on their sleeve so I think there's a lot of lip service to Editors saying I don't believe in objectivity. Let's talk about important. They use different words. Yes But is there do we need more soul-searching more introspection about exactly those concepts? So the whole notion of objectivity was completely misunderstood and and and misinterpreted and and and not to give a History lesson but but in brief. I mean what what the the objectivity The The word objectivity was adopted into American journalism in particular in the early 1900s As a way as a way to to to try to give journalism a process To say to say like the sciences that we have a method We have a method for ensuring that we're telling you the truth And it is this thing called objectivity that that is that is where it evolved from um But I had a student come up to me just a couple days ago and and he said to me um I'm thinking that I want to write a lot more like hunter s. Thompson What do you think what do you think of that? And I said write on uh I can't write like hunter s. Thompson. Can you? Um And and good luck ingesting that much, uh, you know, uh narcotics and and and other other Because I'm still nursing my first beer here. Uh, I don't know that I could write like hunter I mean hunter s. Thompson incredibly talented writer, but I think that I think the student's point was simply Uh, you know asking me about that, but you know in the view from somewhere Having a whether how to to incorporate that into his Reportage and storytelling And I think it is incredibly important. Um, I worked on a podcast called Cooper Island, which was an eight part series about residential schools. It's very good. Thank you um And I'm we I re we rewrote the the first episode. I'm not kidding you 21 times Uh, it was I at one point. I I thought uh, I had I had Mocked up more horribly than ever in my career I can hear my partner laughing because she she she saw me at my lowest moment Uh during that time, but but the beginning Uh came in about Uh version 19 the opening lines of the podcast Because what I did was I injected myself in a way that I had never really done in any of my cbc journalism before And the the opening lines of the podcast for those of you who haven't heard it is bourgeois Inquadence indigena cas Anishinaabe debauchemate endow Hello, my name is Duncan McHugh, and I'm an indigenous journalist And if canada had its way I wouldn't be here That was the opening line of the podcast and I can remember it because it came from here Right, I don't go around memorizing my scripts But I remember that because it came from here and in a moment of desperation. I wrote what I really felt But why I was telling this story And I and and and I felt so nervous writing that whore. Hey because that's not cbc style, right? Uh, certainly not the style on the national To to declare was something as political as residential schools You know where where I stand on that But I couldn't remove that I can't remove that from the way I see the world, you know as as someone who has extended family who went to the residential schools who has had lovers and and partners and Uh, you know my children are are intergenerational survivors Um, you know, I can't remove myself from the fact that that the residential schools have colored the way that I see the world Does that mean that I'm biased does that mean that I'm prejudiced Does that mean that the entire eight part series is is is is one-sided and and and uh worthless I hope not because Jody martinsen and and martha Trojan and I did our utmost to go through a process of Gathering the evidence that we needed to support the story that we ended up telling about one boy who died at a residential school it's about Journalism is about fact-based verification right uh I think it helps a listener or a viewer or a reader understand Where you're coming from as a storyteller if you declare This is where I'm coming from. This is who I am. This is who I am The first question that you get when you meet another indigenous person is where are you from That's the first thing that they'll ask you where are you from And what they want to know is not what city do you live in they want to know who your relatives are They want to know where you've lived. They want to know they want to know who you are so that they can place you And and understand whether or not they want to build a relationship with you And so I think by letting our listeners and audiences know Who we are where we come from then we are a telling them that that we know where we come from And also that we've gone through a process of examining our own unconscious biases I'm a straight male uh and Sis and and and I I have all kinds of built-in unconscious biases that have built up over years of growing up as a boy and in In schoolyards playing and in hockey dressing rooms and all kinds of things that that that color the way that that I You know interview women or or receive Issued lgbtq issues as being newsworthy all kinds of things. I need to to to to declare my own biases In in many different ways To understand how I can do a better job when it comes to reporting on a wide variety wide diversity of stories Canada's national narrative has an unconscious bias though doesn't it sure idea like this this sort of ingrained sort of myth of the two solitudes um And i'm It jumped that thought is sort of connected what like Mark treyhand because he's with the indian country today And he talked about oh, you know, you can eat in canada. They seem to have more knowledge and in united states and nato american issues aren't you know He was saying that somehow can eat is no more but I find when you go in a classroom you say how many you guys know about the night of long nights and everybody's gonna like And and would you say how many you guys know about Stoffs and lake and like maybe one person if you're lucky so for Knowing that that journalists are starting at a deficit When it's when it comes to covering indigenous communities Uh, the indigenous world within the borders of what we call canada Where should they start even before they pitch a story? So I think the easy place to start is is in your own backyard And so sara did a lovely land acknowledgement. She didn't just read out the bump that's on the carlton website. She gave a very, uh, heartfelt and Suggestion of what we need to remember every day that we're on algonquin territory, right? And and I and I always suggest to journalists that they you need to know your own backyard like like do you know? You know what me con means? Right. Why is it called? Could you see me con? Why why and yeah, that's a new story. But do you know why it's called that? right um Things it's really important uh So I have this course called reporting in indigenous communities, which we just launched at the carlton journalism school We have support from big walk nagon aqua sasne Kidagon ZB and the urban indigenous community to send our students out into those communities and report This this term and I'm really super excited about the course Mike Mitchell the former grand chief of aqua sasne for 33 years Came and gave a guest lecture this past monday so honored that he came to speak to our students and and mike You know within about 15 minutes Mike has taken the the students i'll call them kids the students back to the 1700s The he's 1700s and he's holding up wampum the earlier even You know and explaining the wampum to them and and explaining to them and these are these are You know 19 to 23 year old students Who who are here to learn about journalism in 2023? And and it is so important that that any journalist understands That there's a reason they don't know that history That that's 1700s 1800s 1900s history. There's a reason why they don't know that history is because it was intentionally left out of candidates contemporary history books Because when that history is made invisible it makes it a lot more comfortable for us to all sit here at iran's pub And enjoy a beer on unceded land When there's a gigantic billboard of the kitagon zibi talking about the the young women and girls that have gone missing When there is an opioid crisis a big walk nagon It is a lot easier to point our fingers and say those problematic people. Why can't they get their act together? Well, we sit here in comfort in nice warm place in ottawa And enjoy a drink and food and i'm sorry to be a downer when you mention that kind of stuff but that is The really important aspect of understanding your own backyard And I don't think a lot of journalists Know that history and I don't blame them for that because it was intentional leave it out Of the curriculum leave it out of the history books history starts with serja a m and goes on from there And and the joys of of a of an iron horse going across the country and and and And there's this little tiny beginning, you know, where we built tps and wigwams and all of those people were there On that theme, how about the differences in terms of how history is viewed as something that happened back then Doesn't affect today in sort of your more mainstream canadian world as opposed to history in Say in in denny land in denny country Where, you know, the treaty Signed in i think 1921, but it can be wrote and it was actually What happened 1921 actually matters today. Can you talk a little bit about that that difference in the sense of history? as not being Back left behind but actually still manifesting well There there's a I guess there's a and and here we're getting a philosophical Because michael brought that wampum belt for the reason because when you go and go into applesauce knee and people talk You know, and it's it's part of the political rhetoric of the day I I lived in james bay, uh on the on the Quebec side, uh amongst the Cree For for a number of years in my teenage years and there was a phrase that that there was a poster on the walls and in of james bay eu school And it said quite simply without a history We have no future And I think and and I don't mean to oversimplify but but but you know the colonizer's mindset Of course is necessarily looking future focused in history away Right, there is no connection and this is this is you hear this amongst various indigenous peoples about about that period of contact Is that the colonizer, you know, uh, doesn't know where they come from They don't know where they they came from. They don't know who their people are Which is which is a way of saying that they have forgotten that history Right and and one may I mean, I don't mean to get too too too grandiose about it But but you know when we look at the climate crisis that we're in right now Then then perhaps it has something to do with the fact that that that we have this inevitable Not inevitable This this this giant push forward all the time the GDP always has to keep on growing Right, uh, it without a looking back Um, and I and I don't mean to uh, uh, what bogies your grace is a good friend of mine And I'm gonna toot his horn by the way if you want to read a great book Uh, moon of the crusted snow, uh, please go out and get it But I'm reading the the follow-up right now moon of the turning leaves and I was and and I was last night I was lying in bed and I was thinking uh, he talked about how the group was making soap And and and I turned to robin and I said my goodness. How do you make soap? I had no idea And so we had a lot about a really long conversation about about making soap I mean, there are things that that we have forgotten that are that are necessary and important things in in modern contemporary society Uh, which is leading us to the brink quite frankly And so again, you asked me I I hope that indigenous journalists are teaching Uh, contemporary journalists how to do journalism better and I think When I am with the traditional teachers Uh in a traditional setting that they would like to think that the teachings that we that we use in the Uh, that that we use in our ceremonies are teachings that would help the world Remember where they came from and and the importance of history I remember the first time I uh I went to adiabasca. They were having an israel blockade over And this is this will be Wrapping up the us talking and then um and they were having an israel blockade over uh to beers and lack of compensation for lost trap lines And I spent like, I don't know a couple weeks there. I'm like, hey, but you know So let me let me stay up there and file from there And one of the things because my only perception of adiabasca had been through the news cbc and uh about poverty and And desolation and whatever and when I got there the thing that struck me was the fight in the community Like with with everybody that there was there was a fight there and it surprised me and I was like, whoa Um, this is this could just catch fire and and I think um Trahant, I don't know am I saying mark johad. He also mark johad also spoke about resilience. Yes. How do you cover? Resilience, how do you extra? How do you show that like as a like? How do you look for it? um I think it's really important that that that we don't shy away from the difficult aspects of of our story as indigenous peoples uh when I am You know, we we have uh experienced the apocalypse Uh and and and our families are are are seeing the the the after effects Many generations later and so all of us when we when if I go to do a story Uh about missing and murdered indigenous women if I go to do a story about uh about a young girl indigenous girl hockey player who is is now playing uh in the nc double a There's going to be uh, you know difficult Druze about about uh, survivants Uh, which is Which is necessary to appreciate the journey that they've been on to get to that place, right? but but I think the the the difficult thing Uh, is is that is that our trauma? Shouldn't be the lead Right, uh to in our our trauma is part of our story But it's not all of our story and that indigenous joy indigenous resilience survivants Is a huge part of our story Uh, the fact that the seven grandfather teachings Still have persisted and I was listening to to uh, a story of when a bourgeois last night in an ishnab at one And I thought to myself it is absolutely remarkable that I'm on a zoom call with all these anishnabic for all over the great lakes region Listening to a winter story about anibosial Sticking his ass up to fart at a duck, you know like like that that that my ancestors are very happy right now You know, uh, and and I and I thought to myself the fact that that we Uh are still here is one thing But but but not only that that we're carrying forward these incredible traditions that we were gifted from our ancestors Whether it is the seven grandfather teachings or our or our storytelling or our craft work, uh, you know The the innovations that we have brought the world such as the the the maple syrup that I poured on my french toast this morning Or the birch bark canoe or things like all of these things that we have brought to to, uh, to canadiens and and the world those are all things to celebrate and and Uh, you know, I think maybe we should get uh some red baseball hats, uh and and and said, you know Make uh make indigenous people great again make an ishnabic great again Uh because that I think is what what when you ask about resilience We've gone through this incredible period of low, but it's only a very short period in the history of our peoples And where we are there is no question in my mind We are we are going coming back again, and that is the prophecy of the seven generations That the seventh generation would come back and relight that fire again That's what's happening right now amongst our people. That's what's happening amongst the youth. They are growing up to Uh make an ishnabic or migma or high dot or den a great again Because though our ancestors were great, they survived incredible trials and tribulations that you and I like Do you know how to make soap dude? Like I don't know how to make soap. I don't know. So so um, you know We're we're we're heading in that direction and resilience is a massive part of our story I make soap it's sharpers drug murder Open the book Um All right, let's uh Open up to questions Microphone right there I'm thinking about the after a story has dropped. I'm thinking about the buffy mcpersaint Marie story Are there lessons learned about how to I mean How to deal with a story that is going to have a huge repercussion Um in indigenous communities. Are there any lessons learned for doing follow-ups for For for how to handle that So I know I I have to think about the buffy thing for a moment. Uh, Yeah, but but let me tell you I'll tell you a story about my own my own Yeah, yeah, yeah So so it is a good example. I'm not I'm not dodging it. I just need to think about it for a second. Um When about five six years ago. Do you remember do folks remember a little wash? Uh a community up in northern Saskatchewan where there was a school shooting School shootings fortunately in Canada are relatively rare compared to our southern neighbors So in and of itself it was newsworthy Um And but the fact that it was in an an indigenous community made it a little bit more unusual even So they asked me to go to the wash And uh A young boy had had taken a shotgun into the school and And I believe there were three people kill you you'll have to quote my my I blocked part of it from my memory apparently Uh, I'm hazy on the facts, but there were three or four people killed Uh, the community was absolutely devastated Um And the first day or two of coverage was what I would call typical, uh tragedy coverage Uh, it was national news. So there were there were Live trucks lining the streets of this small community uh reporters from every outlet imaginable Including from the states But on day three, uh, I believe I believe it was Either the globe or the times one of the prominent papers The headline was the Lasha community with with no hope Um and and there's no doubt that Uh, the Lasha's had a series of Suicide crises over the years which have made living there very difficult Uh, there's a long history with the church and residential schools But when that Handline broke and there were a number of stories that had similar Types of of angles or slants the community moved Changed completely from being welcoming that their pain Uh and tragedy was being shared to Get the hell out of here Get the hell out of here. You are violating us as a people Uh, and we all needed to stay um But to to to continue reporting on that that very difficult story But it began as an indigenous journalist to be told by people That they didn't want me there that I had no uh access that I that that I was I was doing harm That was incredibly difficult for me Uh, and I left the Lash saying I will never put myself in that same scenario again ever I this is not how I want to report on the news The reason I'm I'm answering the telling you that story is simply that, uh Several years later, uh The james smith cre nation had a similar type of tragedy And I think I can say Safely that the way that that was approached by the cbc and other media outlets has changed considerably So when the james smith cre nation and and for those of you who don't remember There was a a man who was on a rampage with a knife in the community and and Tragically killed a number of them When that news broke the james smith cre nation said no media and put up the line and enforced that right that they have that This is they the outsiders cannot trespass on indian reserve land um, and most of the media In fact, most of the of the of the credible and legitimate media in this country Uh, honored that for days until they stood on the outskirts of the community reported the news as best as they could But they did not go into the community until the community had done the work that it needed to do To be able to present a public face forward And then held a community news conference That's very different than having 400 quarters traipsing around a community sticking microphones in everybody's face and saying what how do you feel? And and does that mean that we didn't report the news? No, we reported the news We gave the updates as best as we could from the outskirts to people who wanted to speak with us um And then when the community felt that it was ready Three or four days after this awful thing happened come and give a public face to that Then we then we began to consume more I think we're learning. I think we're getting better. I think because of the uh because of some of the the You know the debriefs that we've done about what's gone. We're all In our relationships with indigenous communities that we are getting better and that's not just the cbc thing I mean, I think all the outlets respected that partly because it's the law But but I think it was a it was an ethical choice on the heart of all the outlets to say, okay That's very unusual. That's that's not that's not typical But the truth of the matter is is that you don't necessarily need to have cameras in the face of people 12 hours after it's happened. Maybe just give them a day or two to agree Yes in the back there You talked a little bit about building trust and as a journalism student. I'm at that weird place Where i'm learning to tell stories but also relearning history because high school did not do a good job of teaching indigenous history and so how do I who's Not an indigenous person um But wants to do stories or wants to reach out to Indigenous people even for stories that are like about eb um I often have trouble writing those emails But also there's like very often like I don't get a reply back. How do I build that trust like a pretty practical advice So what's let me ask you this. What's your thing? What do you have hobbies? Do you have do you have? Likes or joys in your life? I love reading books. You love reading books. Okay, so My first suggestion is to you is there are so many amazing indigenous authors out there who I would just be like having Piled high go to the library. You don't need to you don't need to pay You can get my book at the library by the way. Don't don't tell octopus that but students you can get my My book at the library. Okay, everybody else is not a student. You can get my book at octopus at the back there But but students you're allowed to get it from the library But but pilot high and and some of my favorites wabugizhik rice sherman alexi louise arid rich I did richard van camp Like I just I could go on and on and on please shout out other indigenous authors tomson highway There are so many of them read read if that's your joy If your joy is music Then start just google indigenous Into spotify right just just pop it in there and start building a playlist of of of Great indigenous artists red bone Robbie robertson And just like all kinds of listen to it on the bus And that has nothing to do with getting an interview and journalism Uh, but you know what when you start doing that you're going to have a reference point for what you're going to do next Which is not send an email But try to uh go in person to the places that you are Hoping to report on so we had a fantastic round dance on saturday night at carlton Uh where the people gathered for for winter ceremonies if you will a ver carlton's version of indigenous winter ceremonies When you go to a place like that just because you're curious Which is the thing that we can't teach you at journalism school When you go to a place like that just saying jeez i hope i find a story somewhere And someone is wearing a red bone t-shirt and you say ah red bone come and get your love I love that song man Or there's someone who is selling a stack of books, uh That and you know that that uh you can talk about the reese erdrich or whatever it may be Then you're going to make a connection to people that they will they will just be fascinated to sit and talk with you Whatever your passion is whether it's gardening or whether it's fishing or whatever Us indigenous people we do it too Find find the indigenous people that that you can follow on facebook or on instagram and just include them in your timeline a little bit And then you'll start to get to know a little bit about us about our people and about our culture And that's going to help you more than any email Will ever do because then you're going to connect to those people that you're trying to ask for an interview Thank you. Does that help? Yeah, go ahead There's another question Hello everyone and nani Duncan. Hi again. Um, my name is yellow sewer. I am a former Journalism student different journalism club as you said I think I'm getting too close. Um I come from Newark in Ontario Toronto and now here On all of our land. I'm so thrilled to be here. I meant to say this to you individually, but um, I think Tonight and meeting you has pleased and remains to be one of the greatest honors of my life. So thank you for tonight Um in addition to the wisdom and the guides or guidelines that you have on the book and what you shared with me privately and what you've shared with everybody right now um As a person of color and journalists of color, what would you say? My approach should be to indigenous stories Is there anything distinct considering my background aware and what I come from um that I could particularly implement into my reporting of possible um indigenous stories because um You know considering my heart and my passion for the business for the line of work um, I will be traveling A lot and I will be going to indigenous territories. Um, not just because Uh, some say I should but because I would like to Uh, no matter what happens along the way no matter how long it takes I would like to go And so if there's any particular, um Lesson message or guidance that you could give me It would mean the world to you And so can you say your name for me again because I don't want to I don't want to mispronounce it Yelda Yelda. Yeah. Yeah, Yelda. So Yelda. I don't need to explain colonialism to you I don't need I don't need to explain colonialism to you. So That that is something that you bring to your journalism as a person of color With from in the afghani diaspora Um, that is an incredible value when it comes to reporting in indigenous communities You already understand colonialism and you already understand some of the challenges and trials and tribulations of the people that you'll be reporting on um what I get international students and in my reporting in indigenous communities class on a regular basis to say I don't know anything about indigenous people in canada. I don't I'm just so trying to figure out oc transpo and You know, like how how am I supposed how am I going to pass this course? um, but but the Every because because internationally there has been a also a storyline a narrative about the red man, you know, and and and and how Indians are perceived by people in afghanistan in in the caribbean in germany um, that that that international students or immigrants have to have to learn When they when they get here but being uh I guess there's a fear factor there That because you are not canadian I don't know if you are not but but uh, this is for my international students because they're not canadian that they don't have a legitimate Uh They don't have a right to tell the kind of story But the truth of the matter is is that most canadiens don't know that history either Most canadiens don't have that knowledge base either most canadiens are also full of all kinds of stereotypes about indigenous people Because of the way that all of us have grown up indigenous and non-indigenous people consuming pop media culture full of those tropes so just because you didn't uh, necessarily grow up learning the history canadian history uh, doesn't disqualify you uh, from taking it on now and rising Not only to the bar, but high above the bar and frankly the bar's relatively low In terms of the the cultural competency and the knowledge base that you need to operate in the community See it doesn't answer that answer the question. Thank you. Thank you much. I can't hear you christopher. Go ahead For what elda the former head of the carlson journalism school on the one hand you talk very eloquently about the need to spend time in filled relationships It improves the ability to do the world also dealing with indigenous communities increasingly putting more and more pressure on Journeys to be more and more to the point you spend there quitting and they're Deciding you don't want to do it anymore. Yes, we're also talking about an industry that's eliminated all in many cases to be reporters So the person who goes to do a story on one day may not be the same person Is there a meaning point between those two different worlds? And if so, where is it? So I know that you're asking that question as someone who started up j-source which which for those of you who don't know, uh, you know is is a A dialogue amongst journalists about how do we do journalism better and and you know Are we in crisis? Yes Is journalism broken? No. Yeah It is the the financial model for journalism is broken And and there are lots of factors for that But but what does that mean for those of us who are in the newsrooms right now and having to to Uh produce it means do more with less that that's that's the The unfortunate reality of of journalism, but but Jorge was asking about about what can we Teach, you know, and when we talk about indigenous journalism and and indigenous journalists, what can we teach the newsrooms? I think I'll give you wellness you know, like like the whole notion that that that So many indigenous people have had to to to return to rediscover or continue to nurture Uh, the the notion of balance Uh of of wellness of healing These are all things that that that we should be bringing into our work Uh, and perhaps that's a lesson So when when you ask for a wellness when I came back from the wash and said I needed at least two or three mental health days Uh, you know as a result of what I experienced Um, those are important Uh Practices that that that the newsrooms need to start respecting and and so It is not healthy and people will I have young students on a regular basis who Grab that that uh, and I see some of them here right now the lights. I swear. I didn't see you guys Uh, thanks for coming. Um Who who Get that job at cbc or the globe or whatever it may be and they're gone after a year because it's it's just relentless And and and it we can't they Talk about who's teaching who Right. Matthew knows this Uh, Matthew teaches trauma informed journalism This younger generation is teaching the older generation that suck it up buttercup. That's not a good approach It's not it's not a good approach And I am trying to find a balance taylor and I have some marking that is due Uh into the next couple of days and if she doesn't have it do I'm going to be like, you know sending her an email, but that said, you know Uh, we need to understand that That that We can't expect every journalist to do uh to do File radio tv online do rants social media all between, you know Nine to five. Did you have to do that today? Did you have to do that today? Brad? I mean, I mean, no Dude, I don't want stories, but I just want to just jump in please say there is no there is no meeting point Right. There is it just doesn't work and it's it's driving. It's it's eroding our credibility It's eroding our reach Having journalists do more is is a recipe for for doom So no there is I don't think there is because we get it wrong as well Like like like that's that's part of it too and and and when we are filing in multiple formats like that It's it's harder to to go through the fact-checking process I know that we talk about Small startups like the narwhal for example Right for those of you who don't know the narwhal the narwhal is an excellent, uh Outlet from the west coast that focuses on environmental reporting and deep reporting And I think that there are Again, it's it's one small model But but it's a way of showing us that our audiences want Context they want long-form journalism. They want factual reporting not just those daily hits Uh that there is an appetite for that that that there are ways that they will You know, we've let the genie out of the bottle people expect free journalism, but They're also willing to pay for it And trying to find the way is is that's that's going to be our our struggle as as an industry Yeah But people are always going to want news that that's that's the other thing too Like like people bring their hands that journalism is dying nobody We're never going to stop wanting news. It's it's it's part of that You sit down and sit to someone on on the bus or somebody haven't seen for a long time. You say what's new? It's just a human it's a human thing and so there's going to be a point Where people are going to I mean I'm not I'm not a soothsayer. I can't tell you what what the future holds for our relationship with social media right now But but I think that people may be starting to turn to against the the the addictive beast that that that facebook and other other Other social media outlets have have created and they're going to Start to get to a point where they will say I hope I can only hope That they will say I want I will pay for a storyteller and a trusted storyteller to tell me the news I get in the way that they used to Can I ask Duncan one more question? Or is Okay Can you can you talk about the process? and the And the story of how you told the the marlene bird story, yeah, can you talk about that? Is that I mean because I actually I actually thought that that was a model That we should follow In storytelling can you talk about that? So for those of you that don't know marlene bird Um Marlene was A homeless woman in in northern Saskatchewan who was set on fire And lost her legs and it was awful and In the way that that you can't help but watch When you drive past a car accident People across the country wanted to know a little more about how that could happen I was a reporter in bc at the time And so I wasn't sent off to cover that as a news story But I read the news like everybody else and after marlene survived lost her legs And after a little while marlene fell out of the news And so about six months after I got in touch with one of marlene's relatives and reached out and Yeah, who connected me with marlene because I wanted to know how marlene wasn't doing Um, and it turned out she wasn't doing so well And um, and so I asked Uh for the marlene's number And I phoned uh a couple of times no answer no answer no answer Backburner finally got an answer and this kree guy answers patrick patrick And he's like oh marlene, you know marlene's just out of whatever and and uh and and was just really full of pistol vinegar patrick was And he was telling me all these stories and and he says I'll get I'll get her I'll get her. Anyway patrick was marlene's partner And patrick operated the cell phone a lot better than marlene did So every time I would phone marlene patrick would answer and and I could hear the banter back and forth between the two of them And over a course of time I built up this relationship over the phone With marlene where she wanted me to come to suscatch wanted to tell her story But in the process of that I realized that It was as much patrick's story as it was marlene's story And despite the awful things that happened to her and despite the fact You know, she was she she was essentially booted out of the hotel or at the hospital in Gotta say saskatoon, but it could be wrong. I'd be regina You know and Set back up to prince albert with no wheelchair and and and with a drinking problem and all kinds of other things Despite all of those awful things Marlene talked about resilience. I mean there's a woman that personified resilience Um, but it was as much patrick and marlene's story because patrick became who was also homeless and also an alcoholic became Very much her support person And I also remember the first line in that story as well And it was this awful awful story about a woman who Lost her legs in a fire and was set on fire Intentionally, but the first line in the story was this is a love story And that was very much the way I tried to shape that because for marlene That awful event led to something Beautiful, which was that the relationship between these two homeless people became stronger than anything that they had ever Experienced before and it was very much a love story um so It was a challenging story because marlene was drunk half the time that I was there And she agreed to let us show that Um That was the way that she had been taught to cope from the abuse that she'd suffered as a woman The residential school trauma that she'd experienced and many had of course the the awful thing that happened to her But marlene and patrick laughed They laughed and they had joy and it was important To to share that with people and and and so I was nervous when that story went to error because you know marlene is driving around downtown prince albert drunk and lay on Her wheelchair And we're putting it on national television uh, but but uh, you know, it was very much looking at patrick and and marlene And I phoned marlene after it ran and uh, and and she said I said how did how did what was it like? She said oh duck and I went to downtown and she said people were Was asking me if I wanted donuts and they were buying me coffee and she was so happy and um, so yeah, it was It was a love story Thank you for asking Thank you. Thank you for telling that story and thank you for For being here and for writing this book and for him. Thank you for asking such really beautiful and insightful questions um, and thank you All for listening and asking questions, too um, I'd like to wrap up with two little things one If you are inspired to buy the book Octopus book is in the back students. You are not allowed um And if you'd like to join us in a month, uh, susan bradley and pat armstrong are going to be talking about care homes long-term care homes in a turbulent era and and whether they have a future So that will be on february 29th in the meantime. I'd really love To give these guys, uh, thank you and uh, enjoy the rest of your evening. Good night Thank you