 Hello everyone. I really hope that I am live now and you can see me. My name is Aster Nomellin Karlberg and I'm Open Forum Europe's Policy Director. Open Forum Europe or OFE is a Brussels-based think tank working at the intersection of open technologies and public policy. So welcome to today's event on open source programme offices in government and academia. This event is the second installment of the OFE Open Source Policy Series that we're doing now this year, 2021. Our goal is to offer some deep dives into the most relevant topics in the area of open source, open technologies in general and how they intersect of course with the most pressing digital policy challenges facing Europe. So I'd like to first of all thank our series partner, the Eclipse Foundation and our event sponsor, GitHub, for helping us make this event and the series happen at this very exciting time for open technologies and public policy. So this public policy series follows OFE's EO Open Source Policy Summit, which took place in February, where high level policy makers such as European Commissioner Thierry Breton set the scene for what is at stake. So following that we will host now six virtual events during the spring and early summer and we'll address the role of open in several crucial policy areas such as the European chip industry, the green transition, institutional capacity building, which this event is very much on, digital sovereignty, 5G and the EU's competitiveness. And of course we hope to see you at several if not all of these event. A little bit of housekeeping. So if you want to ask a question, please write it in the chat and the OFE team will do its best to bring it to the attention of the moderator if it's time and if it fits into the program, but we encourage you definitely to use the chat actively. And like with all our activities, this exchange is covered by OFE's Community Participation Guidelines, which have been posted in the chat just now, I think. You can also find them on our website, but it's nothing super tricky, just be your most friendly self. And so today we'll hear from several interesting speakers who are working with this topic, which in our view is right at the cutting edge of the public open source policy or public sector open source. I will however begin with a short presentation, which I hope can frame this panel from OFE's point of view. Because we have a series of quite detailed policy recommendations regarding OSPOS as a tool for European institutional capacity building. After my presentation, we'll show a video recording with Eric Potorell, a member of the French National Assembly who unfortunately couldn't make it today, but took the time to record a shorter interview with me. In this, we're discussing his recommendation and his report for an OSPOS of the French National Administration. Then I'll hand over to our moderator and panelists for a discussion on the case for OSPOS in government and academia. So now, since as you heard, there's both video and I will share some slides. Fingers crossed everyone that we will manage to get all this sharing seamlessly onto your screens as well. Let's see here. Can everybody see this presentation? If so, right in the chat. Okay, good. Let's see. Yes, time for some slides. I'll keep it very brief, however. Yes, so the recommendation I'm presenting here today comes in the context of a European Commission study that has been conducted by us at OFE together with Fraunhofer ISI on the impact of open source software and hardware and technological independence and competitiveness and innovation. This is we've presented the final results at the summit in February, and it will be officially published in the coming weeks and months. There's a little bit of internal commission process that we can't unfortunately give you too much information on right now. But in the near future, this will finally be published. So I will really run through the study is almost 400 pages, so it's not really doing it justice to present the bulk of it in this one slide, but just to give you a sense of the numbers we're talking here. We've estimated that the impact of open source software on the EU economy is between 65 and 95 billion euros based on 2018 figures. This should be said, of course, is a very conservative estimate because it's a difficult task to estimate this economic impact. But regardless, what we can show is that which I think most people here could expect the role of open source in the European economy is substantial. And just to put this into context with a bit of more of a dynamic number. We've calculated that an increase of code contributions of 10% would generate an additional 100 billion euros in EU GDP per year and an additional 1000 ICT startups per year. So over to the Ospo. Why did we look into this for policy recommendations? Well, one of the main reasons is that the Ospo has been a cornerstone in realizing vast amount of value from open source for the private sector. Let's say many shareholders have been duly awarded for where companies have done in open source. And as a result, we believe that the Ospo as an organizational construct has the potential to realize vast amount of value from open source for citizens across Europe and the world. And I really mean vast. We're looking at very large amounts of untapped potential here. So, yeah, Ospo open source program office. What is this? What are we talking about? Well, the Ospo is an organizational construct within an organization or a company or as we talk about here. Government administration and public administration really or university that supports and accelerates the consumption creation and application of open technologies. So a large number of companies have adopted the Ospo as best practice for internal open source management. And very interesting. Interestingly, they have over time started sharing best practices through through semi formal networks where the Ospo's work with each other. As such, of course, there is that developer. There are many different fundamental building blocks, but from a kind of organizational structure point of view, we see that the Ospo is this fundamental building block and networking interface in the global institutional infrastructure of open source. So that's a long term, but think about just all the different stakeholders that exist out there, be it companies, governments, individual developers, projects and open source foundations. And the Ospo is a very interesting, yeah, kind of interface, middleware that connects all these things together. And one point here is in our research in, you know, from other people's researchers. Well, we've seen that a company Ospo that networks with other Ospos and other companies is a clear sign of the maturity of that Ospo at early stages. It might be more inward focused and look to things like legal compliance, etc. But this kind of active and Ospo as a construct that does things actively in a network is definitely a sign of maturity. So as such, we believe that this, the Ospo should be considered a central to European open source capacity building. This is goes beyond the private sector where we've already seen a lot of uptake and an extensive to public sector in academia where there are already more Ospos being formed. But we think that this is an area, as I said, where there's a lot of untapped potential. So following this reasoning, we recommended the European Commission the following. And the first thing is that we recommend the European Commission Ospo, which has already been established, I think in November last year to give it an external networking component. This would mean to actively use the EC Ospo as the Commission's external collaboration interface to different Ospo enabled institutions within industry, research organizations, universities and within Europe, but you know, across borders really where the European Commission mandate is in place. And this, again, has to do with realizing the vast value of open source ecosystems for European citizens. And we think that this holistic vision of the internal and external work is a very necessary starting point. Then the second generation or recommendation was to make the European Commission Ospo into a sort of legislative coordinated for everything touching open technologies within the Commission. With the European, with the Ospo, they're building, you know, building on already existing open source competence. But we think that this can be further leveraged internally to act as kind of a consulting body for cabinets, for other directorates general and units drafting policy that touches open source and open technologies in general. Because we've seen open source and open technologies having been subject of unintended consequences of EU policy in the past. And very much pointing to the word unintended here and making sure that open source experts take a look at policy is going to be very important moving forward as kind of a defensive move. Then we ask the Commission to do, you know, a mapping of European Ospo's already existence and industry public sector and academia. Of course, it's always a good first step to just take a look at where we're at. And this can kind of form the basis for best practices around Ospo's and be the kind of nascent network to build in the future a stronger European Ospo network. Then thirdly or fourthly, we encourage the European Commission to build 20 Ospo's, so 10 in the public sector and 10 in the academic sector through their funding programs. Because in industry, there is already a steady increase in the number of Ospo's as I mentioned. And this increase can and should be encouraged. But, you know, for the sake of this event, let's focus on public sector and academia. And for the public sector, we recommend the Commission to use its funding programs such as Horizon Europe and Digital Europe to fund and support the formation of at least 10 Ospo's and European government institutions to kind of speed up the process of developing best practices for government when it comes to open source. We also believe that it's important that in this funding of these pilot Ospo's to requiring the Ospo's to have this network component that I talked about. The idea there is to kind of leapfrog the maturity of European government Ospo's to not just start on internal compliance but already from the start at this networking capability. And for academia, we recommend a similar approach as for the public sector with 10 pilot Ospo's, but then of course here taking the particular needs and demands of public research institutions and universities into consideration. And it should be stated here that for both the public sector and academia, we recommend considering the requirements of the Ospo being built with care and not just necessarily importing directly experiences and constructs from the private sector. Because on the one hand, these Ospo's need to be flexible enough to meet the very diverse open source goals of different organizations and depending on, you know, not just local, regional and national but also in different countries, etc. While on the other hand, they also have to maintain kind of a network component that is, you know, standardized with the smallest standardized enough to enhance organizational interoperability, which is at heart what it is that we really want to go for here. And then finally, we recommend that the European Commission creates a program meant to network the European Commission Ospo, of course, the identified Ospo's in the industry and public sector and academia already in place, as well as the Ospo's form would support from the EU funding programs in the public sector and academia. And of course then in the future, perhaps specific subgroups for the different sectors can be considered, but for this first step network, we believe that the European Commission should also consider funding an organization that takes care of this network as a backbone institutional infrastructure to achieve open source policy at scale. Because scale is really the point we're talking about here from a European Commission point of view. It's at a European scale where, let's say the policy goals might differ a little bit from what you would articulate at a regional or a national level. So as a final point here and something that I, you know, the ones who talked to Ospo's with me for know that I go on about. We recommend mainstreaming the term Ospo for reasons of semantic interoperability between diverse institutions and a network of Ospo's that kind of speak the same language and you have other Ospo's or developers or companies looking at a government institution or a university wondering how to engage in the area of open source with them. The Ospo is a natural place to start. It's already an established term. And if you have these Ospo's that have similar organizational structure, even though they might have different goals and have similar, relatively similar circumstances within them and mandates, the more similar they are, like with any kind of interoperability, the easier we can enable structured collaboration between not just the European Commission Ospo, but you know, Ospo's within government organizations, research organizations, universities, open source foundations, private sector Ospo's and, you know, everybody else in the vast global open source ecosystem. So both in Europe and beyond. So I hope I didn't speak too fast, but I kind of rushed through this. Let's see if I managed to stop the slides. Yes, that worked. I hope that was relatively clear as a framing. And now I'll do the trickiest part, which is moving over to the video with Mr. Bottarell. Mr. Bottarell, please give me a few seconds to get this to work. We at Open Forum Europe are very happy to have Mr. Eric Bottarell with us here today. Mr. Bottarell is a Member of Parliament for La République en Marche in the French Assembly. Last year he was tasked with investigating French data policies by the Prime Minister, which resulted in a recently published report. We have asked him to join us today in order to comment on the report generally, which has several interesting analyses and recommendations. But more specifically, we will look to the recommendation that the public authorities are to create an open source program office. Mr. Bottarell, welcome very much. Thank you. So I'll get straight to it. Could you give us a brief explanation, first of all, of the Prime Minister's mission that led to your report? What were the political concerns that you addressed? And of course, how is this connected to open data and open source in addressing those concerns? Thank you for your question. Let me go back to the beginning of the game of this mission. The Prime Minister asked me in June 2020 to work on open data and open source, which means assessing the current policy framework and come up with appropriate accommodation in order to improve France's strategy and global position on these topics. The particularity of missions mandated by the PM is that I was detached from my duties as MP for six months and was offered the possibility to rely on executive resources. So I had a chance to work with a dozen of high civil servants coming from different ministries, and which allow us to have a very large scope on conduct of thorough and objective analysis of the situation. I could also contend the insight of Renaud-Védel, our coordinator for France's AI strategy, and Stéphanie Combe, the head of the French Earth Data Hub. In total, we conducted more than 220 hearings, interviewed people from whole backgrounds and sectorial fields, launching a consultation platform to gather citizens' opinions and write a policy review with 38 recommendations that was only to be PM at the end of December. I think we got into details for the 38 recommendations. Since then, several of our recommendations have already been implemented in the opening of certain datasets on source codes or on data governance in the administration. We had several political concerns in mind during this period. As the COVID-19 crisis demonstrated, we need to rely more and more on data to take informed decisions. So that means fostering data sharing and circulation, both within the public sector and between public and private bodies. Indeed, we realized at some point that we were lacking crucial information, for example concerning drugs, supplies, or patients' allocation within our healthcare system that would have allowed us to manage a crisis more efficiently. We already have a clear legal framework, the Digital Republic Law. We talk this later, I think, that requires public administration to open their data and source codes by default and for free, which should stimulate innovation and consolidate France's position as a leading knowledge economy. However, this framework is still partially implemented, be it because of the lack of data culture amongst picture and governance inefficiencies. At the same time, we were confronted to the question of the transition of certain data production within the administration, Meteor France, EGN, to a model based fully on open data, whereas they were previously drawing revenues that are monetization. We also had to address the specific case of open source within research in the education, which already benefited from a dedicated study by ETA LABRA. Overall, our mission aimed in analyzing strategic and financial opportunities that we should size by accelerating open data and open source by default within the administration and certain parts of the economy. We tried, we make our best and we try to be as concrete as possible and mainly based or work on many uses cases from which we draw more general principles and policy recommendations. Yeah, that's perfect. Thank you. Thank you for that, Mr. Botterell. Yeah, generally, I would like to take this opportunity also to guide the audience attention to this report that there's a summary in English. It's very valuable to read and we will focus on the auspose here, but there are many other very interesting recommendations as well. And so for the sake of the topic of this event, we have seen that open forum Europe and increasing attention on the creation and open source program offices in government administrations as a tool to achieve policy goals. And we've seen the best example, perhaps the most known is the European Commission has a known or has created theirs. So Mr. Botterell, would you please elaborate on the reasons behind recommendation eight for those interested calling for a French national auspose? Yeah, one of the reasons behind the recommendation to create the French national auspose is that we made the observation that our public sector of the community was unstructured and supported enough. Open source is an interesting means to share knowledge and material working tools so that we can avoid the situation where two offices are spending resources on the same problem within talking to each other and helping each other out. So the auspose is a necessary first steps towards more stricter and visible open source initiatives in the administration. Okay, perfect. So in this context then the auspose creation, we're looking to potentially seeing one in the French administrations. But so what would you say are the open source policy goals of the French administration? And how do you see the auspose as a potential tool to achieve these goals? Well, to be honest, after what I say previously, well, if I want to complete my talking, beside we also have the strengthening of positive feedback groups as the better we know how to manage open source projects that are made in the public sector and the better should the public sector know how to buy, implement and use open source for software. It should also help the administration and civil servants to get further skills on the subject that is essential for digital sovereignty as we today are quite dependent on property solution. That's why it's quite interesting to create a specific body that will have the responsibility to support the opening of source goals and their roles within the administration, as well as deepening the relations with the open source communities and support French developers in this domain. Okay, part, yeah, and that's very interesting because from our point of view at OFE, it's also the discussion around the auspose and open source policies in general, they're broad. It's everything from of course the procurement of services and products for the needs of the administration, but also these more societal aspects of digital skills, the question of digital autonomy or sovereignty. Yeah, that's very, very interesting to hear. So now, of course, bringing it a little bit to the attention to open forum Europe, we've also produced a report not yet published, but relatively soon. And as I presented earlier, we have in our study or a report put forward a policy recommendation that the European Commission should start a pilot project funding the setting up of 20 auspose across Europe, both in public sector and in academia. So how would you see the French national auspose in this European context? First of all, we have to make sure that this auspose will be created. And after that, I'm sure that because we have habits now to work together across Europe, we should have something that could coordinate all the auspose organizations. So I'm very confident with the fact that as soon as each country or several countries will build this auspose initiative, we can communicate across Europe. You know, well, one thing is important is I don't want to close to have a match only between the closing on the opening of the data. What is very important is about the circulation, the free flow of data, for instance, is very famous for Europe now. And we have to do our best to make sure that each initiative is in each country, even if it's not really the same perimeter, because of the particularity of each country. At the end of the day, we work together and there's some kind of coordination between all the auspose on each country. That's the third way of the Europe around the digital issue or topics. Yeah, and also, of course, Europe needs to work together to achieve scale, the scale needed to be able to solve the many big challenges in the digital policy field that are facing us. But so taking it back a little bit to France, and I think probably many of our French participants are just interested in this report in the context of broader efforts. Do you think that the creation of the free software mission or the Ospo following your report will be able to contribute to the implementation of Article 16 of the Digital Republic Law, which provides that the state services encourages the use of free software and open formats during the development purchase or use of all or part of their information systems? The answer is yes, really yes. I already touched upon part of the question in my previous answer when I mentioned positive feedback groups. Basically, the Ospo will be a way to make it the public open source of more visible and help convincing civil servants than their information system can be equipped with open source software. I can also mention a project called Label that aims at labeling the best digital solution was populated and open source, which is specific and visible open source criteria. The initiation has for open source, so this will necessarily benefit public procurement. On the other side, you have a project named SEAL, which is a global reference catalog for nutrition. It will continue on giving more visibility to specific open source software that more organization will want to implement so it will also benefit local businesses that develop open source solutions. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Botterell. We congratulate you on your report and of course we will look with a lot of attention and interest for future developments in France. And yeah, with that, I would say give the word back to our moderator Claire Dylan. Thank you very much, Mr. Botterell. Have a good day. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Bye. So almost made that very good and smooth because I handed back the word to me myself. As you perhaps could see, I tried to wear similar outfits to make the video blend in more seamlessly. But anyhow, so now it is my pleasure to introduce our moderator Claire Dylan. Claire spent over 20 years working with developers and developer communities. She works with Moss Labs to support the establishment of university and government open source program offices and the Ospo Plus Plus movement globally. She has recently been instrumental in setting up Ireland's first network for those interested in advancing open source at national level. Claire, now I think everyone has seen enough of me, so the floor is yours. Thank you so much, Aster. And I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me along. And at this point, I would like to invite the participants in our very first panel here today. So I would like to invite on Neja and Said and Roberto if you would like to join me on screen. What we'll do as you're joining is that I will just give a brief introduction for our panelists. And hopefully by the time I finish, they'll be on. Here's Roberto. Hello, Roberto. As you come on, please do feel free to wave as I mentioned your name. And we're just waiting on Neja. Hopefully she will be arriving any minute now. But let's start anyway with who we have here. So Roberto de Cosmo is a professor in computer science in the University of Paris-Diderot. But more recently, he has been leading the software heritage project, which is doing amazing work in collecting, preserving and sharing all the software that's available in source code. So welcome, Roberto. You're based in France and I know you have loved to share with us on the French national strategy. I'd also like to welcome Said Choudhury, who's the associate dean for research management at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore in the US. Said has set up the Johns Hopkins University Open Source Program Office, but also the new Institute for Applied Open Source. So I know you've got lots of great tips to share with us. So welcome, Said. Thank you. And Neja Lanour, who's the CIO of the city of Paris. Lovely to have you here, Neja. She has been leading the digital transformation of the city of Paris, has been an open source enthusiast and advocate for many years, and specifically in terms of how open source can improve public services. So welcome to all of you. And let's get started. Perhaps Roberto, we might start with you. We have just heard from Monsieur Boutrelle about how France is planning to build an open source program office at a national level. And you've been very, very active in that open source and open access scene for a long time, both internationally and specifically in France. So can perhaps you share your own observations and how you think this also will help France's national digital strategy? Well, OK, thanks, Said. I'll clear to let me start with this round. I would like to start to provide you a little bit to provide our audience a little bit of understanding on why this work is important now, how it changes something that happens in France. Let me give you a very brief but quick, important recall of the evolution of system in France. You know, in France has been at the leading edge in deploying and using open source in particular in the public sector. Unfortunately, this is not very well known outside of France. You know, here in France, we like to write and speak in French and not everybody does it. And so we are not necessarily advertising thing as well as we should do. But let me start 20 years ago. Since 2003 to 2004, there was a groundbreaking project in the minus the Ministry of Finance, re-holding the full system, the IT system in there. That project was incredible and it would open up the market for open source in France. It would require a full talk to explain why it worked and I will be delighted to give another time. But just a starting point, you see 2003 to 2004 and that comes from the state. It's not a private company. It's a decision of the state that changes the market and upsets the market for open source. Then later on, 2007, here in France again was created a working group inside the competitive net cluster which was called Systematic, had been leading there for 10 years. And this created something like 50 plus research and development project over 200 million euros invested to create real products that actually gain market using all the open source. And again, the public sector was key to achieve this kind of result. Then in 2012, you have a very important document which is the Circular IRO. It is the Prime Minister at the moment. I don't know in English how you call it but I mean it's not a law. It's not a decree. It's a document that the Prime Minister sent around to tell people how they should work and it provides incredible amount of details on the good practices for using and contributing to open source community when you are in the public sector. I will not talk about the city of Paris because I'm sure that Naja will do it but we need to have a hot tip to the city of Paris. We did an incredible job with Lutess. You will hear more from her. And then you see, I mean, this was a lot of time ago. Then you have these papers. I mean, there was a study by Georgia Tech placing France as a top notch place, the best federal place for open source development. A study by Frank Nagel 2019 on the impact of this circular IRO, how much it impacted the program here. Then there was a creation of open source working group in the National Committee of Open Science. I'm leading since 2018. Then Sartorius started here. So you say, hey, if you are so advanced, why do you need an hospital? So let me answer this question. Yes, in one sense, we have been extremely advanced compared to other places in the world. And look, this is not Chauvinism. I would be delighted that we were the last in line and to find a lot of our people much more advanced than us. Because you don't want to be alone, right? You want to have more friends on the table. But if you look at what happened many, many times, these kind of advances came out of individual decisions by heroes that actually managed to carry the message at the right moment with the incredible effort made into making this here. What we hope to see as a change through this hospital is to actually institutionalize these kind of operations. To make sure that it is no longer on the shoulder of some heroes, lady or man, to actually carry this over. But there is a clear place in the organization, in the public sector in particular. We are talking about public sector here, right? In the public sector, a place where this mission is clearly written, carved in stone, and that takes care of ensuring reliability, trust, coherence, I would say, I'm missing the English word here. I mean, consistency, consistency of the position and of the operations. So you want to have a phone number, you call that phone number, and you understand what is the strategy, what is the position. And this will not change in one year or in two years because a person changes. It stays relatively consistent, like we see in many other operations here in the state. So the Boterelle report was not, I mean, the deputy Boterelle made it very clear, 90% of the report is on open data, not on open source. But it was a very important vehicle to carry the vision that we need, a Mission Logistille Libre or an Ospo, if you want, in English, to actually ensure there is consistency and that we leverage all of this experience we already have, making us all available, sharing with the rest of Europe, the rest of the world. And you have a phone number to call it. I remember, you remember, Kennedy saying, hey, Europe doesn't exist when I want to call Europe, what is the phone number? Well, it's the same situation here when you're talking about open source strategy. What is the phone number? I need to dial to talk to the person that gives me an insight on the strategy and that I can pass. I mean, tomorrow, the answer will be the same. So I'm sorry, it was a little bit long, but I hope to share some... I think that's wonderful. And it's brilliant to get the context of how this has evolved in France because many of our examples here today of people who have been involved in this effort to date have come from your area. And in fact, to your note about the fact that we have some heroes who've done extraordinary things, let me go to one of the superheroes here, Néja, from the city of Paris, who has had some great impact with open source for Paris, again, over a long period of time. Néja, perhaps you can talk a little bit more specifically about how you have leveraged open source in the city of Paris. Thank you. First of all, I wanted to thank the Open Forum Europe for inviting me today with Philippe. We are always very happy to tell about our open source experience and learn from others as well. So at the city of Paris, we run a powerful city services engine called LUTES, maybe you know it, that we have developed in-house for 20 years now. The first project was designed as a content management system. It was made to administrate the websites of the 20 districts or town halls for non-technical agents. And right after it came out, the Council of Paris voted to open source its code. It was our first project. They believed that public money should benefit other municipalities or administrations. It was a very strong political will and therefore citizens would only pay once for the public code. So it was the beginning of the story. Then over the years, the platform, as new needs came out, we were helped by contractors and our internal team was also involved in the development of LUTES. We could implement new standard and reusable features and maintain the solutions to the state of art. And now it runs most of our digital services, maybe 80% of the digital services and 60% of our applications. So now LUTES offers more than 200 digital services on church, more than 4.6 million lines of code and it can be used to generate multi-step forms based on a powerful workflow engine. It offers also an appointment booking system, a 311 type of application to report non-emergency incidents in the public space. It's called Damary or In My Street. We can run also our participatory budgeting budget every year with LUTES. We built a citizen relationship management and all these modules are based on standard and are real and reusable plugins which make a solid and reliable software for a municipality. It can be reused by other municipalities and we are discussing with French and European municipalities to share it. Thank you, Néja. And I think back to what Roberto was saying, in the case of the City of Paris, you have done an amazing job at actually sharing what has been happening there and actually collaborating with others, not only in France but actually abroad as well. And I think, Said, you have been collaborating with the City of Paris from Baltimore in the context of Johns Hopkins Ospo. So perhaps you can talk to us specifically about how the Ospo was involved in the collaboration between Baltimore and the City of Paris around LUTES. Yeah, I'd be happy to. Thank you, Claire. So as Claire mentions, I lead the Ospo at Johns Hopkins University and have been working with colleagues in the City of Paris. We've also been working with a local community center in West Baltimore called the St. Francis Neighborhood Center. One of the ways in which people engage with their cities is through these community centers. So clearly there's, of course, value having the municipality itself, the elected officials involved in this way. But another way is to have these trusted other kinds of entities, community centers, religious institutions and the like, involved in engaging citizens directly. So how was the Ospo involved? I mean, in a very basic and fundamental way, we couldn't have done this without working with the Ospo. And what I mean by that is if you think about the City of Paris, Johns Hopkins University based in Baltimore, Maryland, and a community center based in West Baltimore. The only two ways universities typically have to work with others is through grants and legal agreements. And both of them require considerable levels of effort, particularly the legal agreement part, particularly if you're dealing with across countries. So I would submit that if we had put our energy and effort towards either coming up with a grant or a set of legal agreements, we would still be struggling with trying to sign those agreements and work together. Instead, we were able to use the open source license, the Ospo here, and what I would call the beginnings of the Ospo in Paris. And in essence say, that's the framework under which we will operate. And let's just start operating. So it is a much faster way of actually doing the work. And I can't stress that enough. I think if any of the participants who work at universities, when I say think about the level of effort you would have to go through to sign formal agreements versus dedicating that effort to actually working together. That's a wonderful rebalancing of effort. The other way that's been very important is, Claire, you alluded to this Institute for Applied Open Source that we've launched at Hopkins as well, which is really taking the work of the Ospo and moving it into other aspects of the university's mission, such as the education aspects. So there were a few students who worked a couple of years ago on the Lutess platform through one of the courses in computer science. And we've actually hired a student through one of our hackathons to continue working on it. And I'm glad to say that the Ospo is the mechanism through which these students are getting formal recognition and acknowledgement. So students do a lot of work outside of their courses, a lot of work outside of the tangible types of outputs they produce. So now you have an opportunity to say, I worked on this open source project and here's my university's Ospo formalizing that, recognizing that and helping me convey that to the rest of the world in terms of whether I'm looking for a job or applying to graduate school and so on. And this has evolved in a really wonderful way into something we're calling semesters of code. So through a partnership with the Department of Computer Science and with key individuals at Microsoft, we're going to have semester long experiences starting in fall of 2021 working on open source projects like Lutess. So what we hear from our students is we want practical experience. And what we hear from employers is we want students to have practical experience. And what we hear from the community centers is we love the energy and enthusiasm of the students. But how do we sustain that beyond a weekend event like a hackathon? And semesters of code is this wonderful convergence where it's all coming together as part of their academic experience. They register like it is a course but they actually work with real platforms like Lutess. They actually work not only with the people who develop platforms but the people who use the platforms. So understanding that you don't develop open source software and vacuum, the key aspect is not only the community of developers but also the community of users. So a much more holistic kind of experience. And I'll just end with one point that the current student we're working with. Every semester I ask her would you like to keep working on this project? And every semester she says the same thing which is I'm getting more out of this than I am some of my courses. So yes, I want to keep working on this. We just like to scale that in a more formal way through semesters of code. Thank you, Said. And I think it's marvelous to think about the Ospo giving that recognition and also supporting the overall open source community by actually helping people get on board and on board and obviously perhaps even change the future of education to include open source. It's a great point as well. But it was interesting as well to hear how your focus on what Astor was mentioning earlier that be able to have a kind of a standard and consistent way to actually deal across borders. In fact, across oceans. It has been so important in that respect. And if I can come back to you for a minute because as we mentioned earlier when you started this journey you didn't have a formal open source program office but in many respects you were performing many of the functions that Roberto and Astor and Said have also talked about in terms of helping these collaborations and helping internally how you produce creating guidelines around how you produce software. So can you perhaps, but I know now you are thinking at the city of Paris level to actually create a formal Ospo. Can you maybe elaborate on how you think that would benefit Paris? You're right. Even without an official Ospo City of Paris has been involved in open source seen in 2001 and now by contributing using open source software. We have Lutes but we have also other open source software. We share for example with Geneva for botanist applications or for digital open digital classrooms with maybe 10 or 12 other local authorities. So we have an important experience on open source software and sharing our application with other administrations. Of course this period is very difficult with the pandemic and a new mandate which is beginning but we are thinking about it because it could help us to share more. We know that many private companies have their own Ospo. It's not the same case in the public sector. I think it's just beginning. We have a team which is in charge of the open source development and IT department. So it's not an official Ospo but we have a deputy mayor which is very enthusiastic and who is enthusiastic and who support us and is very, very helpful. This is very, very helpful. So we now are very excited to read about the OFF study that recommended the European Commission to help build 20 public sector Ospos. This would bring other municipalities to the table, work together and help in workshops and share the risks. Without adapt, an Ospo would benefit Paris and make our work more visible and the teams easier to reach help us co-work and find common needs to co-implement. It would also be a way to make sure the city OS policy is implemented and help spread the OS culture and best practice internally as well as externally. If we have two minutes, we would like to highlight the fact that open source applies to very important goals that are linked but are not quite the same and maybe the Ospo can help us to solve the main issue which is how to share between administrations because the publication that brings transparency, sovereignty and trust between administration and citizens as well as cost savings and principle of public code is maybe easy to develop and to set up. But sharing between administration is I think it's more difficult and it's a struggle to figure out how to share a roadmap with other entities and still deliver services engaged by our elected officials. So we have to manage two different works to deliver services and to share our developments with other administrations. It's very important to consider the need to set up legal facilities to help us to better mutualize experiences at the national and European and broader level. The bigger our community grows, the less we internally can handle all the support. So the development of open source to be shared requires legal openness with the possibility of having entities that allow and facilitate procurement co-developments and manage the community to ideally reach that level where the community is self-sufficient. There is a great need for such an entity that can manage take over the roadmap, the definitions of common needs of open standards, etc. And it's not so easy to build in the public sector. So we are trying now with two or three other cities in France. And I think that our and Ospo will help us to reach this goal. Thank you, Nezha. And so what I'm hearing is that like an Ospo, in many respects is essential to helping support and scale the activities you're doing internally in terms of good guidance and legal practices for the organization itself. It's pretty obvious that it can have a huge role in actually smoothing collaborations between organizations, which is really, really important. But it also sounds that from a public sector perspective, it is a very much evolving concept in the way that it is actually helping define how these collaborations actually are going to happen and to smooth those collaborations as they go. And even as Said was talking about how they can actually be extended to incorporate the idea of creating or skills programs or education or incorporating more participants in the whole open source community. So Roberto, can I come back to you for a minute and just ask you how do you see these evolving in the future? What other areas could Ospo's look at from a public sector perspective that perhaps we haven't mentioned so far? Where is your vision on that? Thanks Claire for giving me a second occasion to occupy your time. So then, yes, there are other areas where it is actually important to have a single phone number that you need to call. And one of these, I would like to draw the attention of everybody here, is actually what happens in open science. We have been going through an incredible crisis due to this virus, which is still still bugging most of us. And we have learned I hope when I say we, as a human kind, I believe all the people listening to this particular presentation already knew we have learned that the best way to face difficulty versus big crisis is actually by sharing knowledge and collaboration. To do so this effectively, then you need to share the result of your research, giving credit of course. I mean, credit is the full in academia, fundamental. Don't steal the work of art, use it and say thanks. But then you need to actually be able to share everything you do. This means the articles, this means the data. I mean, that was a core of this Botorei report. And you need to share also the software we are building, the software you are using, the software you are integrating, the software you are evolving. This in the academic sector is something that we have been doing unbeknownst to ourselves. I mean, without even realizing for a long time, now we need to do it on purpose, clearly. And it is not so easy as you can believe. So not everybody in academia is pro open source. It depends on the field, depends on the discipline. And not every sector in a university or research institution is actually favorable to share software. They believe there is some intellectual property they can sell. Usually people that think this never actually developed a real sort of project and never understood the big difference between an academic prototype and an engineered industry product. There is a huge difference. You cannot just sell it like a typical patent on a medicine. It's very different. So we need a place in our institution. I'm so happy to see that Saeed started this work. So I'm kind of jealous. We should have started before you since we are so advanced with us. But really, hot tip for what you're doing. We need a place. We're actually in academia in the research institution, in the organization. You have people in charge of providing the researchers expertise. They do not have the time to build to strategy, education and support and then again consistent policy position of the institution. It cannot change every time you change a director. Otherwise, that's not the strategy. It's just contingency. And we cannot work that way. So this is another area where this would be important. For example, this open science movement that started a few years ago now got momentum. So I do not know what happens in the state. But for example, in Europe, we see vice president for open science or pro-rector for open science and all over the place in our university. Why don't we have a pro-rector or vice president for open source? Not just for IT or for digital education. That's too vague and too fuzzy. But just for open source, taking into account the software that we use, the software that we produce, the software that we study, because when you look at what happens in academia, it's a multifaceted object. It can be a tool that you are using to produce a result or just to enter the grade of your students. I mean, it can be just a tool or it can be a product of a research. It is a result of a research effort. Or it can be an object of study. You look at how the software has been developed. Actually, this can be the three things depending on who is looking at you. So we need to have a place where people understand this complexity, network together. So that's the reason I like this idea of network of hospitals. Try to build and share together best practices. And let me just say do not expect too much from hospitals. It depends on the expertise you put in there. And remember that public administration is not the same as a private company. So what works in a private company does not necessarily translate equally to a public administration or to a research institution. There are differences that you need to recognize and maintain. But this is another area where I do believe having this kind of hospitals is really important by doing it, let's say, humbly but consistently and together. Thank you. Thank you, Roberto. And I think that point about the fact that in public sector every hospital may be different. That's certainly what we have come across in our work that depending on the priorities of the organization, the context they're working in and the functions they want to provide may be different. And as we're hearing today are actually evolving in real time. So we're a little bit over time on the panel. So I'm just going to go to Said for one last comment perhaps a very briefly Said about where you see the future of Ospo's going. So I think we've heard a lot of interesting ideas about interoperability in cooperation. I remember saying some time ago that technology interoperability is hard. Human interoperability is harder and organizational interoperability is even harder than that. And from the information science community we have this expression of making the implicit explicit. And I think what Ospo's can help with is making the implicit or explicit. And coming up with patterns so as Roberto and others pointed out you have these case studies is really what we're talking about here where specific individuals came together. They're leveraging institutional organizational resources of course but it's individuals driving it. We want that to become a pattern or a model that other people can adopt and can use more readily. And I think this network of Ospo's is really the way to make that happen. And the final point I'll make is really important to keep in mind. This is not about Ospo's universities even the public sector saying to the citizens here we're helping you. Fundamentally it's about the citizens helping themselves. It's about engaging them so that it's a partnership in terms of addressing their needs and problems and not a one-way or exchange. Thank you Sayi. It's great to think about how Ospo's can empower citizen engagement in that respect. And Neja, I think just as a final note I believe that you have an interesting announcement to make in terms of the plans for next the end of this year. So perhaps you can share with us your plans in respect to the open source forum city forum. Neja? Sorry I think I told you that I have to leave because I have another meeting. I can let Philippe answer? Yes, certainly. Thank you Neja and thank you for joining us here today. We did run a little bit over so apologies about that. So Philippe if you're in the chat perhaps you can add the news in terms of what Paris is planning for November in the chat. And at this point in time I'd like to thank Neja who had to run off very quickly and Roberto and Sayi. Thank you so much for joining us on this first panel. We really appreciate it. And while we say goodbye to Sayi and Roberto I will ask Mala and Maurizio to perhaps join us now for our second panel for today's event. Oh Philippe is here. So maybe Philippe you can very briefly tell us the news in terms of Paris in November then. Oh no, we're having sound issues from my side. You hear me now. Thank you very much Claire. Thank you for bringing me on stage. Yes, of course we have a big announcement to make. Well, we have to wait until we know that traveling is allowed later this year because as you may know we organized in June 2019 our first Open Source City Forum and many actors among which the OW2 Consortium by the way which helps us a lot with their blueprints for building I suppose and will soon be will soon rely on these roles at the City of Paris. There was the Linux Foundation, the Eclipse Foundation Most Labs was there. Everyone brought their experience and offered their help to see Paris somehow take the lead in the municipal space in Open Source. I'm very happy to announce that there, associated to this year's Paris Open Source experience in November will organize a reunion of such an event and hopefully you will all know soon about that. Well, Fingers Cross, thank you for sharing that on Fingers Cross we can all join you in Paris in November. There's been nothing I'd like for. Thank you so much. At this point then I would like to invite on the stage Mala and Maurizio for our second panel of the day. Hello Maurizio and hopefully Mala will join us soon but let me introduce our new panelists here and again feel free to wave though I think it may be more obvious this time who's who but Mala is a UX researcher and designer who's leading Tech for Social Good program at GitHub but has worked on many different social good projects in the private sector in the United Nations and in nonprofits over the years welcome Mala and Maurizio is the chief strategic solutions in the United Nations in the office of information and telecommunications technology and he and his office have been working on innovation programs aiming at assisting United Nations member states with the support of their tech adoption. So very big welcome to both of you here today and thank you for joining us and I guess one of the things we've heard a lot in the previous panel about how Open Source and Open Source program can help cities and universities in terms of their adoption of Open Source programs but right at the very end we were talking a little bit more about the network effect and I think what we'd like to explore in this panel is really the opportunity that Open Source program officers might have to really I suppose make an impact on a global scale in the world I guess so Mala perhaps I'm going to start with you and just if you can tell us from your experience how you think Open Source and particular Open Source program officers might help the social sector. Yeah sure can everybody hear me okay? We can. Yeah so my name is Mala I lead the tech for social good program on the GitHub social impact team but before I joined GitHub a couple years ago I spent the better part of a decade in the United Nations system and then with other international development organizations basically designing and deploying tech products throughout the world and one thing I think that kind of became in my first few days at GitHub is that although entities like different organizations within the United Nations system for instance are becoming tech service providers they don't necessarily see themselves that way. So anybody who's worked in international development knows this common story where you're a design team of one and you have if you're lucky maybe 10% of an engineer is time who's splitting their time over 10 countries right? It's that easy to build tech products in these big massive bureaucracies because as we know tech is a really important part of solution building for the social sector and making the world a more just and fair place but it's not the core of it right? And so these organization structures really reflect that. And one of the great things I think about the way that many auspices have been set up especially through Microsoft and Sun Microsystems and all of these private sector tech companies is that it's not really a centralization effort but it's really a capacity building for the organization itself. So I'd love to see that same idea applied when I've been at the UN and I had a go-to design team that could help me not tell me when I'm supposed to build something because that's my job to determine what is being built and when but really to help my capacity so that they can answer common questions and I get how we talk about reducing friction. So helping me in the case of an hospital with which open source license I'm supposed to be using or what are some of the other projects or organizations that might have taken a similar approach that I can build off of really fundamental to some of these organizations. So it's building up a lot of efforts we've seen in the UN system so I mean obviously Mary so it's at the forefront of one of them. We are too at GitHub we're working directly with the World Health Organization which is a specialized agency of the UN to look at how an hospital might be rolled out. There's been a lot of initiatives to kind of sensitize this concept of open source which is obviously very important but we're now getting to the point where we have to get past just the idea that open source is important and more to the details of how massive bureaucracies let's be honest. Yeah and thank you for that because I think that that seems to be the bigger channel. Now before I come to you Maurizio I'm just going to note that whatever way my screen is happening here I can only see half your face so you might just, thank you very much and now we can see the whole one for you so thank you very much but I'd like to come to you now so from the United Nations perspective thinking about the big challenges that we all have to face as nation states as individuals and can you maybe share with us a little bit about how you are working on the Sustainable Development Goals and how that relates to open source and your view of all those as well. Thank you Claire for having me on this panel I think so far it's very interesting discussion and we are obviously looking from a wider perspective and as you know and I believe everybody participates to this webinar knows about the Sustainable Development Goals is probably one of the products that UN has been put together in the last several years and obviously the 17 Goals are designed to fight hunger, poverty ensure the equality and dignity for all so this is a very big macro dimension of the whole problem and the General Assembly said though that we are not only governments they have to achieve these SDGs it's a responsibility to everybody so I believe that from our perspective and from a technologies perspective we've been working a lot with anybody who wants to help us and the open source approach of working together has been something that has been found out to have a great potential to accelerate the reach of the Agenda 2030 which is where the Sustainable Development Goals should be achieved so from OICT from my office of Information and Communication Technology we are basically serving around 100,000 UN staff in more than 980 countries so we are working on both sides making sure that the organization is up and running and that the staff member have the tools to work with the technology but also we are really engaging on ensuring that we are providing support to member states in the achievement of the Sustainable Development Goals our motto and our main objective is really to make technology inclusive and we've been working through open source in various initiatives including a crowdsourced crowdsourcing platform to search for ideas and from the community over 25,000 people or citizens that are engaged in our community and we actually worked on and received all the solutions for more than 30 challenges that are starting from, you know, service security to circular economy to making sure that we have a model for electrification of countries in Africa and so on so that has been a very good support to engaging and making sure that we are working inclusively with everybody we also run what we call the Reboot Accelerator Program which is really starting with the Reboot Earth concept then we went into Reboot the Ocean and Reboot the Health Wing and there's been our brand over there but we have engaged in several countries around the world with local communities local technology ecosystems including private sector start-ups to make sure that we come up with solutions that can be resolving or addressing some of these problems so again also there we had more than 200 participants in our event in daily in India it was incredibly and it was two days people worked 24 hours a day for two days and produced incredible stuff another initiative we worked on was the Technology Innovation Labs making sure that we have presence in these countries to engage with the local ecosystem the academia, the private sector making sure that we're working through an open source approach so all these three initiatives I just mentioned really demonstrate the power of engaging open source community and also the strength of the organization like ours can derive from these engagement citizens with citizens worldwide so we are at early stages of establishing our OSPO and we have been trying to map through a strategy that is 90% there so hopefully it's going to be announced soon to enable streamlined organized open source for what works within the UN but also ties the into the UN long term mandates and making sure that we also work with different entities that already have gone through the path of establishing an OSPO and we working with the in the EU and also Johns Hopkins I think the next meeting we have we say is really to talk about the six months of code so that's also something that we're going to work together very clearly so in essence we are really engaging into this and we see the power of the open source and we are ready to move it forward to the next step well again it's wonderful to hear that the work that the United Nations is doing and the potential around open source there and obviously once again you've been doing a lot of the functions we talked about here that could be incorporated within and also but as Roberto mentioned earlier it sounds like now there's going to be a phone number we can ring when we want to collaborate on that and I think in the prep actually has a potential to actually increase the diversity and inclusion of the participants at a global scale in the open source community in terms of engaging people on the issues that are going to impact the most so perhaps you can comment on that yeah sure I mean you know this is something I tell my colleagues I get him all the time so you know the UN is comprised of many different organizations you've got specialized funds and programs and agencies that all kind of have a different mandate area often according to the SDGs so World Health Organization obviously says SDG-3 which is Global Health and Well-Being, UNICEF whose mandate is largely education and the health of mothers of young children and young children themselves so they have very different areas that they work on they all have offices globally and one of the things that's interesting is that if you look at especially countries that have a lower tech maturity and you know are low and middle income countries one of the biggest employers of developers of technology technologies in these countries is the UN system multi-national organizations like the World Bank or the UN agencies and so if we do anything and I'm really glad that to see the this concept note that has come out kind of talking about the economic impact of an OSPO because imagine if a UN agency that is a major employer of African developers for instance creates an OSPO that would in theory increase demand and just under sleep make the concept more visible one of the things that we hear about all the time because we need to do this very large research project and publish a report last year called open source software in the social sector and that was based on many many interviews many surveying a lot of information and still one of the more comprehensive resources at that intersection but one of the things that we heard in that process was that African developers consistently tell us that there's really no path of becoming an open source expert to employment now there are exceptions obviously like Nigeria South Africa countries that have a more mature tech ecosystem obviously have more mature open source ecosystems but in rare instances do you see that happen and so for those of us here in the states or in Europe where we have a lot of lag time we can kind of build our personal brand we can get involved in projects that we really like and just kind of explore different ways of becoming technologists that's not necessarily the case if you have lower even fewer social safety than we do here in the states if you don't have as many employment opportunities as we do here and so even if we were able to double the number of open source jobs from 5 to 10 in a country that's a step forward. I'm not saying that it's at scale just yet but these are the kinds of movements that we need to make because there is a critical part that the UN and again these other multinational organizations play in the employment opportunities of open source in some of these countries. No thank you and you can see the real opportunity there so even for a country like Ireland where I come from thinking about the fact that right now there may be spare time to actually do these things the discoverability of the projects that would inspire younger people or people who might be new to this kind of concept to actually get engaged in the open source community that might be a little bit lower than it might be with the actual introduction of an OSPO whose role it is to actually promote the open source projects that are going to change the world that we live in and help address the biggest problems we face. So that's very inspiring and I really want to commend the United Nations and thank you for those comments Mala in terms of what the opportunity is there. So we're coming close to the end of this panel session but Maurizio perhaps you could actually just share with us just in terms of your plans to actually drive the adoption of open source through your OSPO that is emerging in member states like what are you planning to do in order to be able to encourage more participation and to ease that participation. Thank you Claire. We still at the era stage as we were hearing before on the OSPO side. The concept is still nascent but we have as I mentioned kind of strategized with our colleagues and our friends and we come up with a kind of three tier approach. The first approach is where we have the most kind of influence on and basically within our office of information communication technology basically touching on policy and actually implementation of the principles that an OSPO is set to support and basically we really want to walk the talk and we make to make sure that the software we provide is open and there's a mind shift whereby the organization can operate in a transparent inclusive and open way and so like Digit in the EU and the Commission we are trying to change the internal culture from a bottom up approach and we have selected few concrete projects as you know particularly my office we've been supporting member states by providing centralized solutions that they can install in their jurisdictions and work through their duties of serving their citizens particularly on all the mandates that UN is providing against counter-terrorism and the last project that we shared with the Afghanistan is a full registry solution for Afghanistan occupancy certificates that is installed in Afghanistan and we are ready to open source it and get contribution from additional you know people around the world and our academia and private sector to make sure that we construct and customize and configurable and make it configurable make the tool configurable so that other countries could adopt that particular solution which is blockchain enabled so this got emerging technology and that has been a bit our work so selecting specific projects where we can start building the community also learn ourselves how to manage the community how to make sure that we are we are providing value added and we again value added in with engaging with many many experts out there at the second tier we really want to as Mala was saying the UN has a lot of organization a lot of verticals specific SDGs so we need to make sure that a policy coordination is happening so we really have started to work with some UN entities who are planning or started discussing the heroes we have heroes in every UN entity so we want to rob them in and make sure that we are working on a policy coordination approach with the UN family but also the third layer is probably one of the most ambitious but very important is really to start working with member states and making sure that we maybe we come up with a discussion that would lead to maybe a resolution on open open source that would bind all member states of the UN and actually from our side we would be able to support them through capacity building and raising the open source profile and maybe having OSPOS established and supported by the UN and connected through the UN network worldwide. So these three approach is really to try to bring all the resources together and build stronger expertise and establish open source community connection and connectivity between the networks of the OSPOS that hopefully will be spawning around the world. So at present we are really working on the OICT OSPOS and we are looking to work with colleagues from other entities but our main goal is to try to see if a group of friends of open source could be established maybe in New York through the permanent missions in New York and the heroes that we see in capitals as well and start really the discussion at UN level around open source and the adoption of open source. So these are the three things that we are trying to put together and work on as of now. Thank you. I'm sure we'll all be interested in that. I see one of the questions in the thread there was about whether or not Ireland was considering an OSPO. I think one of the things I'd like to share is that in our experiences like we've discussed many times here today often times countries are performing some of the functions that an OSPO in public sector might actually do and part of the journey that we have here is being able to identify who is doing what, who are the heroes who are involved and taking the patterns that Maurizio just talked about in terms of actually sharing those and as we do that activity we can move further towards formalizing an OSPO and I'm delighted to hear that there is a focus from the global organizations and organizations like the EU as well in terms of actually supporting the formal creation and networking indeed of the OSPO across the world. We're coming up to the unfortunately we've run out of time we always do it seems like a conversation that could go on and on but I really want to thank you Maurizio thank you Mala for joining us to hear about the potential at that global level for open source and for OSPO to help scale those connections and networks and so without further ado I'd like to invite back Aster perhaps to close the event but to thank you both and to thank Aster indeed for inviting me here today to help facilitate this panel and to wish you all a happy Easter thank you very much thank you very much Claire I was asked to just close the event and just round off so I'll do this super quick because at least here in Europe it's getting a bit late but I think it's been very interesting I've been taking a lot of notes of course there are a lot of discussions for each individual organization university or government institution to really work on the internal open source culture and identify those heroes and build this structure but I really want to make the case for open source being this established way of collaborating across diverse organizations based on tried and tested licenses and norms and they have produced vast amounts of value value in the trillions in the last decades and in some ways while there's of course a lot of other actions that are important that can be done and are already being done I think the Ospo and talking about Ospo in these global networks is really a government or a university's tool or perhaps gateway to all of this value for their citizens so yeah in our view of course the foundation that I put forward in the beginning is that I believe that the EU and the European Commission has a very great opportunity here to play a role in kick starting such a network of course together with organizations such as the UN but also from those big organizations to individual developers and people working hard out there in many different organizations so increased collaboration around open source because I believe that such an established network looking to the future like Maurizio did this in turn can support us in bringing open source policies that can solve the really great and grand global challenges at scale that we can really through these networks achieve the solutions that we need with that I'll say that we will of course share the recording with everyone and interesting links and things from the chat and then yeah considering Philippe's invitation earlier perhaps we'll see each other in November in Paris I think that would be very very nice it's time for me to take that one hour trip from Brussels I think well with that I hope you'll have a very nice evening or whatever time it is where you're calling in from and I hope to see you soon at the other OFE policy series events coming up bye everyone