 Hello everyone and welcome to Working Together on ThinkTekawa'i. On this show, we explore the impact of change on workers, employers and the economy. Today we're going to look at the impact of immigration bans on workers and employers. Over the last few weeks, the news media has been overflowing with information about the president's executive order banning immigration from seven countries. The states of Washington and Minnesota joined forces to appeal that ban, which was overturned by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Now, while the news has reported on the circumstances around the immigration ban and the backlash to it, they've done very little to talk about how these kinds of executive orders can affect the average worker in the United States. Today, we're fortunate to have some people in the studio who are very familiar with the impact of changes to immigration on business and on the visa holders who may have their international travel curtailed by immigration bans. Joining us to discuss the impact on employers is Linda Kawamura. Linda is a certified HR professional and the human resources manager at Oceanit, one of Hawaii's primary employers of science, technology, engineering and mathematics workers. Jeho Choi is also joining us. He's an architecture major at the University of Hawaii, and he is here on a student visa from South Korea. And joining us from Finland, we have Hanu Peli, an international MAHRM student who is planning to graduate this May. Welcome all our guests. And before we get started, I would invite you to join in on the conversation. You can do that by calling our telephone line at area code 415-871-2474, or you can tweet us at atthinktechhi. So again, welcome guests. Linda, I would like to start with you. There are so many misconceptions out there about who and how people go about the process of getting visas to work in the United States. Particularly the H-1B visa. And those are primarily the people that you employ. So what kinds of positions are held at Oceanit by people who hold H-1B visas? Well, Oceanit is an innovation company where we require the incumbents to have advanced degrees. Many of them are 25% of our people are PhDs. So these are in the STEM area, or science, technology, engineering, and math, highly technical people. But what makes them also different is they have to have heart that would thrive in our kind of innovation culture. So some of the positions we have would be chemical engineers, materials engineers, software developers in artificial intelligence, physics majors, and also design thinking user-centered analysts and consultants. So it's really hard to find them in the United States. But also, so that's why we might go globally too. Also they need to understand a global environment because many of our clients are global. And so cultural diversity as well as an understanding of the world market is very important. And those are the kinds of positions that we tend to refer to H-1B visas. So what is the screening process like for those positions? The screening process is the same, whether they're H-1B visa, resident alien, or domestic employers, employees. Basically we recruit heavily at universities and also through social media. And then once we have applicants, they will come by. We would have them apply. And then we go through a series of interviews myself, the hiring manager, colleagues, and people that they would work with. And then at that point, we ask for samples of work. For software developers, we're asking them to complete a coding challenge. And for writers, because they would need to be involved in writing proposals, we ask for writing samples. Then we do reference checks and then make a selection thereafter. So when you talk about reference checks, what kinds of reference checks do you do? Because I know one of the misconceptions is that the visa process could actually allow folks that may have criminal records or a history of miscreant behavior in their home countries to come into the United States and perhaps to perpetrate some mischief here. So what does screening look like for those folks who are coming over on H-1B visas? Primarily our screening involves talking to prior managers or professors and we ask them the quality and quantity of their work, the production. We would ask them what their interests are and how we can see if there's a match to our needs or not. We do ask for background information. Now we are a defense contractor, so they may need to be required to do a security clearance depending on the position. Not all positions require security clearance. In that sense, they may need to be a need for citizenship at that point. But other than that, it sounds like you're looking for the best candidate for the position regardless of things like country of origin, citizenship status, etc. Yeah. And again, the technical skills are super important. That's what we look at. But it's also heart and heart meaning, are they curious? Do they fit and thrive in our organization? Are they innovative? They need to be multi-talented and transdisciplinary and flexible, adaptable, able to work in a kind of chaotic environment, which changes frequently. Yeah. I can see where that would preclude, well, 99.9% of the population, regardless of where they come from. Exactly. So, it sounds like if for some reason the government would compel employers to either stop recruiting globally for those kinds of positions or put huge restrictions on employers who require a global mindset from their employees that ocean it might be in a fair amount of trouble as far as accomplishing your goals and objectives and living up to your mission statement. Exactly. So, diversity out of the box thinking, having that, those talents that it can be working in a global market, that's critical to our mission. So yeah, if those are curtailed, we probably will not be able to meet our mission and our objectives and our goals as well as we could do. We would have to make do with whatever that we had. So, the more diversity and ability to collaborate together from different perspectives, the better we are as a company and the better we can service our clients. Right. Now, speaking of clients, you said you had a global, a global client base. So how important is it that the people assigned to some of these products, product development, research and development, these kinds of things, how important is it that they actually understand what the end user will actually be doing with whatever product you're making and how do you ensure that the end user is getting exactly what they need? So we involve or incorporate design thinking in our whatever we do. What is design thinking? And it was brought to us probably about four or five years ago where we work with the client in identifying their needs. Many clients don't know, they know what they want but they may not know what they actually need. So in the past it was engineering, we build it and hope people buy it. That's not how it works anymore. We want to make sure that we understand, so we observe the clients, we work with them, we provide prototypes and we ask the client what they need, you know, what they like and don't like about a certain product or service. And then we work with the client, so it's a very user centered type of engineering or problem solving. I'm imagining the folks on those product development teams need to have a sufficient knowledge of cross-cultural issues and communication so that when a client talks about their needs, that team gets a good sense of what they're talking about without requiring a lot of follow on communication. That too, but also it involves having excellent listening skills, observation skills and being able to gain insight into what, just because a person says something doesn't necessarily mean what they're thinking, so we need to be able to infer and get insight from their communication, verbal and nonverbal. Yeah, I've often had circumstances where if I gave a client what they asked for, I wasn't giving them what they wanted, because they articulated it in a way maybe that wasn't as clear. So I've got to ask this question, Linda, because it's one of the sort of preconceived notions about folks who come into the United States for work purposes. And it's people say that immigrants are so-called taking our jobs. Do you find that to be true, at least among the, now you're looking at a very sort of high level, highly educated workforce? So you're not finding that to be true? Not at all. We have so many opportunities here at Oceanette that we're not taking jobs. In fact, we're always looking for talented people. And right now I can tell you that we have an artificial intelligence software developer, or a senior electrical design engineer, or a systems engineer, civil engineer. And these are highly technical positions. Again, I'm looking for someone that also has someone that can thrive in that innovative culture of mind to market, which we call is with mind, meaning we come up with design or solution, and then we commercialize that technology. So we're looking, we're always looking for talent. And sometimes, because we're changing, we may be looking for someone that may meet the other qualifications, maybe not specifically, but they might have other talents or skills. So we are also recruiting for the future. So there might be a position that we don't even know we need right now, but down the line we make our connections, and at the appropriate time, there may be an opportunity out there. Looks like you're surrounded by two sources of future and potential talent. That's right. So, Hanu, let me ask you very quickly. Now, you are from Finland, and you're here working on a master's degree in human resource management, hooray. So you're surrounded by HR people now. What was the visa process like for you? It wasn't an easy process. It took a long time. Like, first of all, you have to apply online, and it's about 200 bucks nowadays, and they go through your background check. You have to provide your financial information, your family background, travel background, everything. And the next step is to have an interview. For me, it was in Helsinki, the capital of Finland. And there, they also go through an interview. So basically, they want to know what I study, why I want to go to the United States, do I have enough money to provide my living here. And then also, they do a complete background check again. They take my fingerprints and everything. So it's not an easy process. Okay. Good. Well, not good that it's not easy, but good that there's very thorough. And I think talking about your experiences helps to blow a hole in some of the preconceived notions about folks that come over in the processes they go through. We are going to take a break right now. It's time to do that. But when we come back, Jay, I want to talk to you about the process you went through. And then I want to talk to both of our students primarily as well as you, Linda, about how sort of this ongoing political environment of vitriol may be sort of casting a shadow on the way we communicate with one another and the way, the experiences that you have. So go get some coffee or a drink. This is working together on Think Tech Hawaii. We'll be right back. Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Law Across the Sea. Please join me every other Monday to hear lawyers from Hawaii discussing ways to reach across the sea and help people and bring people together. Aloha. Hi, this is Jane Sugimura. I'm the co-host for Condo Insider. And we're on Think Tech Hawaii every Thursday at three o'clock. And we're here to talk about condominium living and issues that affect condominium residents and owners. And I hope you'll join us every week on Thursday. Aloha. Hello, this is Martin Despeng. I want to get you excited about my new show, which is Humane Architecture for Hawaii and Beyond. We're going to broadcast on Tuesdays, 5 p.m. here on Think Tech Hawaii. And we're back. Welcome to Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm Cheryl Crozier-Garcia and we are discussing the impact of immigration bans on workers and on employers. And right now I want everyone to meet Jeho Choi, who is finishing up a doctoral degree in architecture at the University of Hawaii, who is also a student visa holder from South Korea. And, Jay, please tell us about the process you had to go through in order to get the visa to come and study in Hawaii. Where first you apply to university and then get accepted later. And then then you can move on to applying for the visa. And it's the same, pretty much the same process. You pay $200. And then there is a service fee, which is another fee, like I paid $160 for it. So the two separate. And then in South Korea we have only Seoul. In Seoul they have only embassy, so I live in the South. So I have to take a train about three hours to go up early morning and then get the interview done. And then, of course, they take the fingerprint and everything. We're also background check and the bank statement that I have enough fund, or if not they will ask for a sponsor, which is usually parent for most cases. This is a question for both of you, but Jay, I'd like to hear from you first. Do you feel that the process that you went through in order to get your student visa was it sounds like it was very thorough, but do you also think that it was fair and that it could possibly prevent, shall we say, mischief makers from perhaps gaining entrance to the United States via the student visa process? I think that process was thorough enough to screen out some of the people who might have a mischief in America. Plus, it's the only country that I think that I really apply for visa to study so I cannot speak about other countries. But I know that if you want to come to Korea to study, where I have Chinese students who are studying in Korea, they also have the similar process to get into Korea and then study. So I think each country has a pretty much similar student visa process. It's very safe, I would say. Good. Honu, did you feel that the process was thorough enough to prohibit people with negative intent from possibly coming to the U.S.? I think so. I think it's really hard to cheat. Cheat there, so they go through everything. That's why I think it was fair, but it was just tricky enough for people that try to cheat. That's good, because I think there is a misconception out there among, say, the general public. And maybe people that have some fear around immigration and terrorism issues that people will look for any avenue possible to enter the U.S. with the purpose of doing something harmful to the rest of us. But if you guys feel, having just gone through this process, that it is a thorough screen and that it probably would stop at least the most obvious possible miscreants, I think that's a good testimony to the process. Let me ask you guys this. You're both international students, you're both from outside the U.S. Have you noticed any change, say, in the way strangers and others treat you, either classmates that may be from different places or folks you run into on the street, neighbors, roommates, etc.? Are you finding the vitriol and spite that seems to be pervasive right now coming into the relationships that you have with others? How do you go first? Nothing like that, like from day one I always feel welcomed here and it's still like that even though Trump is president right now and things are what they are, people have always been friendly towards me. That's good. So you've never experienced any sort of negative un-neighborly or unwelcoming behaviors from here in Hawaii? That's good to know because we hear stories that are not pleasant. Jay, what about you? I have the same experience as Hanu like very friendly and then I was I'm in the global track program which allows me to study in America and then one year I have to go to China with the local students here which is also part of the team. We share rooms and everything so for almost two years we were always together so I think that made me more inclusive within the students and then have more stronger ties with friends. Although I have to say, Jay, if you were to tell me that you graduated from McKinley High School, I believe you. So you know that's you look like one of us. Linda, let me ask you this because you have a very global workforce. Are you noticing any sort of conversations that kind of devolve into arguments or anything like that over politics? No, not at all. However, there is some maybe fear because of the unknown for those that are on H-1B visas as to what would happen in the future. That would be an issue. And then as we somebody applicants I'm talking to who many of them are on F-1's and maybe want to go into OPT or H-1B visa, they had questions about that. That's a difference that I've seen. But no inner anything different than how it was before. Because I was just reading the Sherm Daily Bulletin I get the Sherm Bulletin every day and they said that they survey HR professionals every day on various questions. And this particular one dealt with political discussions in the workplace and they said that since the election 35 to 40 percent of HR professionals who took part in the survey reported at least one instance of a political conversation devolving into argument to the point where organizations are trying to think about whether they should have sort of anti-political discussion policies. That's a little bit doctrinaire for me. But how do we as HR people really keep the attitude mellow and allow for free expression but not allow for abuse and vitriol really negatively affect the workplace? Sure. And I think it stems from philosophy of equal employment opportunity for everyone and having that inclusive environment, collaborative environment and always promoting that. And then it's political or some other kinds of forms that cause conflict and nipping it in the bud and addressing it in a professional manner. I think that's how we have worked on that before. There is more talk about the impact of the political scene on the future of employment but it's nothing to get into an argument. More people are just talking about it. Right. Yeah. I have noticed sort of in the circles I move in that people are actually afraid. I mean it would normally be even if we were having a political conversation. Even if we disagree on topic we can still have a passionate and robust discussion without entering the realm of insult or anything like that. You know, talking solely about the issues and the ideas. But recently I've been noticing a real sort of hesitancy to have those kinds of conversations. It's sad because a well informed populace is the best defender of democracy. So if we're not able to listen to one another and learn from one another it's the governmental structure that suffers in the long run. So now guys, international students, let me ask you I don't know, I'll ask you first because I don't know the degree to which politics and political issues might be discussed as part of an architecture curriculum but are you involved in say discussions in class about these issues and do they seem to still be respectful and collegial? Yes. We don't really talk that much about politics in the architecture area but certainly some of the students where I live in East-West Centre they seem to be. Because I live in East-West Centre there are some students who is I wouldn't say afraid of what is changing but there are certain talks they're talking about they might be not coming back or they might not get a job in America and then just go back to their home country. Right. Honu, what about you? Not during classes but in everyday living I hear it every day. I live close to Hawaii it's a big apartment and every day there is discussion about Trump and his policy. What do people say? Can you squeal? Well, usually they're not happy they're talking that he's more like a businessman instead of a politician and let's just say that overall opinion is the negative and I think like if somebody is with Trump they are kind of afraid to say it because of their overall opinion. That's how I feel. I have to say I agree with you because if we look sort of anecdotally at the polls right before the general election it looked like the Democratic candidate was going to win based on polls well that didn't happen so clearly people who said they support the Democratic candidate may have behaved differently when they got into the ballot booth so maybe people are afraid of coming out with an opinion that they think might be greeted with criticism or rancor or anger and that's bad. We need to fix that because certainly Linda I'm imagining that it would really put the kibosh a lot of what you're trying to do in terms of maintaining a very innovative very cooperative work environment and I can really see it affecting the learning experience that the gentlemen have as far as maybe even changing their minds about education in the US or staying here if you wanted to as opposed to maybe going to another country or returning home and frankly we need all our good brains and I think for me when I started hearing about the travel ban or the immigration ban I should say that was my biggest concern if we are going to maintain a strong economy and a strong democracy we need to have the best brains available and if the best brains aren't here already because they were born here and raised here then we should be importing those brains from elsewhere and I think for us is that collaboration with different perspectives is highly encouraged and do we always agree no but we all bring our perspectives and then we take the best of our perspectives and we're a better company for that and so if we don't have if everybody's saying oh yeah I agree with him, I agree with her we don't have that healthy dialogue Yeah, sycophants really reckon environment Well, guests, thank you so much it's time for us to go but I would need to thank Hanupele, Linda Kalamora and Jay Choi for joining us today I'm Cheryl Crozier-Garcia and I thank you again for joining us on Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii See you in two weeks, bye