 Wonderful, and I understand that you're also sharing this on your site, right? Yeah, you can choose either to publish the video or just as a transcript that's made out of the audio recording and you can decide that at the end of the interview. That's wonderful. I love the fact that you're very dedicated to transparency, so I find that amazing. Okay, can you tell me a bit about the situation with LGBTQ rights in Taiwan and not only the legal situation, also how society treats people? Perception? Fairly, I would say first that Taiwan is a very rich, transcultural place. We have more than 20 different national languages, the majority of which are indigenous. So for example, we have Amis, which is a metriarchical culture. For example, we have Taiwan in which gender isn't an issue when choosing their leaders. And of course, on the ethnic handphone, there's Taiwanese haka, holo, and so on, each carrying with them very different gender stereotypes. And the vision of this plurality makes gender a more fluid concept. Like I grew up speaking both Mandarin and Daigi, the Taiwanese holo language. And in these languages, for example, in the holo language, there is this idea of essentially gay relationship. There's a specific term for that, and it connotes no negative tones. But in a metriarchical like Amis, they have very different words for very different things. And so I would say this transculturalism helped us to build the diversity as our strengths, rather than having one culture dominate the other as we did in the martial law era 40 years ago. Nowadays, this is a vibrant pluralistic culture where diversity is celebrated. Amazing. And legally-wise, I understand that as of late, you have the option for same-sex marriage. We have the act that makes it legal for same-sex couples to wed as individual to individual. However, that act does not hyperlink to the kinship clause in the civil code, so their families do not wed. So in heterosexual marriage, it's both the in-law and the by-law relationship. But for the homosexual couples, it's just a by-law relationship, which is equal, but not the in-law relationship. Interesting. Can you explain a bit about this? Because it's the first time I'm... Yeah. So that is a great opening into the language thing. You see, in Taiwan, instead of saying aunt or uncle or cousin, there's literally 16 different weds. So when two persons wed, their families also wed. And the sisters-in-law, the mothers-in-law, and so on, each of those very different sides have very different weds for them. And so it's a very intricate relationship, and that's predominantly on the ethnic Han side of the Taiwanese society. Now, the problem, of course, is that when two homosexual persons wed, all these languages need to be reinvented, new terminologies invented. And that is a major social issue. So, due to the idea that we need to build intergenerational solidarity instead of dividing across generations, we understand that people who are married after 2008 did so on the individual-to-individual basis, because that's when our Marriage Act revised to say marriage is a matter of household registration. Before that, if the two families hold a social ceremony, the marriage is already in effect, regardless of when they register after what. So this is the idea that when a person is born, it's naturally born, whether they register to birth certificate or not. So the social family-to-family ceremony used to be the predominant form of wedding until 2008, when the civil code changed. So, when we say same-sex marriage, we mean specifically the post-2008 form of individual-to-individual wedding by registration, where the marriage takes effect on the time of registration. But the old social ceremony saying that is only for heterosexual couples. And of course, nowadays, the young people, even heterosexual ones, see it more like an individual-to-individual thing anyway, but there are still parts in the civil code that basically says that their kinship relationship between families are formed, and those parts are not recognized in the homosexual equivalent. Wow, that's fascinating. Amazing. So, I understand that you came out as trans in a quite... I don't know if it's a late stage, but not when you were a kid. And were you living in Taiwan, or were you living in the US? I didn't live in the US. I only visited for most half a year at a time. And so, I came out as trans when I was really traveling around the world. I was traveling in the span of two years, more than 20 different cities doing hackathons and things like that. So, I came out, I guess, first on the internet, actually on my blog, actually. But even before that, I also joined different internet communities, and gender was never something that I fixed myself on. And so, I don't think there's this specific come out moment. I wrote a blog called Runtime Typecasting, partly because people who know me from the European side of things on the pro community consider me a woman. And people from the magic the gathering community consider myself a man and things like that. So, on different online community, there's different identities going on, but people do overlap and they confuse about the pronouns. And I always say, of course, my gender is whatever, but that doesn't seem to really clear things up. And so, I then wrote a blog just bringing together the very different communities that I engage with. So, there's a kind of canonical URL to point people to. Amazing. And what was the response? People were very supportive, of course. And nowadays, I use primarily the nickname AU, which is a common prefix of my previous internet handles or treatises and Audrey. And so, AU, in a sense, is my pronoun. Oh, interesting. And when people address you, do they say miss? Well, sometimes they say miss, right? And sometimes they say miss, sometimes they say mister. And I'm like, because it's whatever, right? It's written on my Twitter profile. My pronoun is star slash star, meaning literally whatever. So, I cannot be offended. You just call me anything. Amazing. But how do you pronounce that? I'm non-binary as well, so I'm kind of exploring. So, what slash ever, I guess? Wonderful. Oh, or whatever. And when you came back to Taiwan and I guess told your family, told your friends, how were the responses then? They're also quite supportive. My family wasn't very gender stereotype anyway. My mom was kind of raised in a very boyish manner. And so, to them, basically they are more concerned about my name change than anything. We spent a lot of time discussing my new kanji name, and which we eventually settled on the name Feng, which is a very interesting name because it's Phoenix. But next to Dragon, it's feminine. But next to Huang, a female Phoenix, it's masculine. So, it's a kanji word that's the most gender fluid word in kanji that I can find. Interesting. And, well, when you came to a political position, I know that's as a trans person, I know that's very rare, at least in Israel. It's rare though. It's becoming far less rare. Yes, of course. Well, let's start with, I don't know, the halls of the parliament, other political activists or politicians, how did they react to your presence? Well, so internationally, I've never faced any discrimination. And so, I think it is rather like Dr. Tsai Ing-wen, right? We often point to the fact that in our parliament, more than 40% of parliamentarians are women, which is, I guess, okay by Nordic standards, but really good by East Asian standards. And our president is, of course, 100% women, and I think 116th indigenous or something. But in any case, the point is that this is now seen as part of the transcultural identity of Taiwan. Our presidential spokesperson, Gula Siotaka, is Amis, so the metriarchical indigenous nation, which I'm really happy to see the New Zealand, I think, foreign affairs secretary, also Maori, also proudly displaying the Austronesian norms in international relations. So I think this is seen internationally as something that's to be proud of. Domestically, I would say this also helped to propel the, you know, instead of just LGB, which tends to be more visible, the PIQA plus part to the forefront of political discourse. It's not a also run, but rather in our pride parade, for example, we had our first transgender pride parade this year. Well, this year, of course, it's kind of unique because Taiwan is one of the only places that can have a physical pride parade. But also it's notable that transgender pride parade is its own identity. Amazing. And where do you feel that Taiwan might improve on LGBTQ rights? Yeah, sure. So nowadays we are making a lot of norm based improvement. For example, in the new ID card that we are planning to roll out in small batches for testing purposes in a couple of months, the gender field is gone. It's not displayed on the card anymore. And I think this is a really good step forward. It used to also display the names of your father and mother. And based on these alone, many people can see based on the ID card, whether you're a child of a heterosexual or a homosexual family. And now that is gone as well. And so I think we are making real strides, real progress into a more gender inclusive future. So any other things you think you're basically at the top of acceptance and laws? That's amazing. So I think that the next question would probably be what do you think that other countries have to learn from Taiwan? Yeah, especially for East Asian countries who put a lot of emphasis on family to family relationships, family to family ties. This social innovation that we took, which is marriage equality by legalizing the bylaws, but not the in-laws. I think this is something that really our East Asian neighbors can take lesson from. Amazing. And I don't know Europe, more less progressive countries, I guess. Yeah, but I think this whole of society dialogue, taking the norms of the more elderly people into account is also very important. If we just ram through this marriage equality by saying that no, you have to invent new kinship terminology, even if it might have been feasible legally, it would not be very constructive to an intergenerational relationship. And so making sure that this intergenerational solidarity is held by listening carefully to what kind of values the elderly people respect and then build the marriage equality and other LGBTIQ plus rights on top of those shared values. For example, the respect of marriage, less divorce rate. There are things that the LGBTIQA plus activists can broadly agree with the elderly people and we need to build this kind of intergenerational coalitions. Interesting. So we're speaking about intergenerational and intercultural. And what you're saying is basically the key here is just listening and understanding what cultures or different generations are the core values and then you can find... It's about taking all the sides. Amazing. So do you find it easy as a politician? That's the whole point of being non-binary, right? It's that we don't have in our mind this idea that one half of population is closer to us and one half is farther away from us, stranger from us. We don't have this notion that our homo-savians community is somehow partitioned in two with some modulus remainders. We don't have that in our mind. To us we are a community regardless of gender stereotypes and this also applies to say the partisan binary and things like that. Amazing. And do you see yourself as an example for other LGBTQ leaders? Yeah, I think trans is a great term and the reason why I keep saying trans-culturalism is that the idea of non-binary is not limited to gender. You can take it to, for example, instead of left wing and right wing, I talk about the up wing, which is using economic means to achieve social good. And there's many ways where the non-binary thinking can apply it to not just gender but intersectionally pretty much anything that previously framed as a zero something and you can then turn it into some eclectic innovation. So I would encourage people to be more trans. Whether they identify as transgender or not, they can all be more trans-cultural. That's amazing. And I know you identify as an anarchist. Anarchist, yes. Conservative anarchist. What does that mean? What does that mean at large and what does that mean to you and how do you express that? Well, conservative means, as I mentioned, respect the elders, making sure that the tradition that they carry or entail in the 20 different national languages and the tradition that they carry do not decimate each other in the name of progress of one particular culture. So that's conservative. Anarchists simply mean that I don't believe in giving orders or taking orders. I think Voluntary Association produces better quality decisions together than any top-down, lockdown, shutdown, or take-downs. Amazing. And I understand that this is how you organize your office. And is that the way the government at large works? And if not, where do you find yourself in that hierarchy? Well, I find myself at the Lagrange point in the hierarchy. That is to say, with the social movement on one side and the government on the other side, I'm in this Lagrange point between us and Moon, making sure that I don't get captured by the gravity well of Ida, but can maintain a very, I guess, freestyle connection to make sure that a message from each side can be delayed in an efficient fashion to foster mutual understanding and trustworthiness. And this is my position between the social movements and the governments, so there is no hierarchy at the Lagrange point. Amazing. And well, I understand you basically took care of the COVID-19 issue in Taiwan. And I know people are very proud of the fact that you were the head of this issue and handled it so well. Do you think that, I don't know, maybe issues with you being trans or non-binary influence the way people reacted to your work? Or do you find that they completely emphasized your work and how does that work? Yeah. Well, being able to communicate in a variety of styles and be empathetic to listen to people. I guess being trans makes me easy to emphasize with people no matter their political or gender inclination. It's like a more inclusive way of policymaking. So in my office hours, when anyone can drop by and talk to me as long as I agree to publish the transcript or video, then I'll be more able to listen to them without conforming to any particular stereotype that may inhibit communication. And the story of Taiwan's counter COVID without lockdowns, I think when you say that, you know, your effort does a plural you. It's definitely not just me alone. The aim of 23 or 24 million people, because although I do my part to communicate across the government technologies and the civic technologies, it's these technologies that write the system that makes sure that three quarters of people within a few very short weeks have masks, can put on the mask, wash their hands, protect themselves from their own unwashed hands using medical masks. And that is a true success story, but I cannot personally take credit for that. I understand. Do you feel that you being the minister of digital affairs, does that have any connection to your gender identity? Because maybe you found yourself online more safe or more able to express yourself than in other situations? Yeah, I think the digital realm, of course, is easier for people who are transcultural, because as I mentioned, each minority group isn't minority online, right? Even when you are alone in your neighborhood of 100 people in having some unique perspective, once you get online, well, you can find tens of thousands of people sharing that particular perspective. So I would say the online community fosters a safe space for the gender discourse to grow and also to break out of the stereotypes. But I wouldn't say online is the only place. My office, the Social Innovation Lab, for example, is a maximally inclusive place. Not only do we have, as part of the Ministry of Interior's Building Handbook, four restrooms on the first floor, one for male, one for female, one for gender neutral and one for universal access. But also we make sure that our public art installation is done by people with Down's Syndrome who have a unique topological view to the world and things like that. So it's about neurodiversity, not just biodiversity. And also this is about the idea that everybody contributes, like completing a puzzle together. So the kind of transcultural norm that we build online can be projected in face-to-face spaces as well. And regarding, I know that, for instance, I did an article on China and the whole trans issue is very, very complicated. And things that have to do with surgeries, hormones, like the technical things are very complex and sometimes are dependent on family wishes and getting respected by society. How does it work in Taiwan? In Taiwan, again, depends on the cultural lineage of the family, right? So the 29 countries and the culture they represent, of course, all have very different responses to someone being non-binary. But I would say, as a general trend, partly thanks to Dr. Tsai Ing-wen's leadership, because she is, as far as I understand, the only Asian leader when she was elected president did so on her merit instead of being born into a political family as a woman. And that really, really helped. And also, in the past 13 years or so, each of our public servants proposed bills, budgets and so on, all need to pass through the gender impact assessment process, where the Gender Equality Committee, more than half of which are civil society organization leaders, coach the public service in the idea of gender sensitivity and building a gender impact dashboard and so on. What I'm trying to get at is that in Taiwan, this is a very conscious change by the early feminist activists who achieved by and large their goal and didn't stop there and extended intersectionally their work to the LGBTIQA plus communities, and so the gender sensitivity is built within the public service itself, which in turn changes the education system, which in turn changes the norms. I would say if you are a young child who are non-binary, and if your parents are 30 or so years old, that is to say born after the education reform, then you'll have a much better luck than if your parents are around 70 or 80 years old. So what you're basically saying, which is amazing to hear, is that the system is very aware of gender diversity and I guess sexual orientation as well. Do you feel there is no discrimination? For instance, trans women are generally more subjected to, well, not respectable behavior. Do you feel that a trans woman for instance can achieve anything that she won't be affected by discrimination? Well, if they are like born now, I'm reasonably sure that's the case. If they are in their 50s, I wouldn't say that is necessarily the case, because the kind of social change that is described by and large took effect in the past two decades. So whatever I'm describing is effective as of the past two decades, but I can't attest to anything that's the previous century. In the previous century, of course there were discriminations. Yes, amazing. Wow, you basically blew my mind in a very positive way. And do you have any message for, I don't know, LGBTQ people or specifically trans people that are reading this, will read this article? Yeah, it's my favorite Lena Cohen quote and it says, there is a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in. I have to say I have a board in my living room that actually says that. Excellent. There you go. Wow. Anything I haven't asked and you'd like to say or summarize or anything? Well, would you like me to publish this video or as a transcript? Yeah, definitely. I would love you to publish the video or a transcript however you like. Excellent. That's all and I think those are really good questions and thank you for putting your work into it. Thank you very much. Thank you for dedicating this time and I really appreciate it. I would, I guess I would speak to your assistant because I need photos. Okay. The good news is that I have a lot of photos in creative commas that you can just use and without paying a dime because these are creative commas attribution. So I just pasted you the photos and you will see if you open that it covers a really, really wide spectrum of gender expression. Amazing. Just sick. How do I get there? I'm not, I'm not very experienced with the Skype. I guess when, when we're talking. You can check it out. Okay. Okay. Amazing. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful, I don't know what time it is. Yeah. Go time. Have a great local time. Bye bye. Bye bye. Live long and prosper. Bye.