 a magical place. Sweet. Jerry to Stephen Johnson has a Ted talk about like where the great great ideas come from or what are good. Yeah, he talks about that too. I mean, we had the age of alcohol and then the enlightenment happened with the age of caffeine. Yep. Yep. Hey, Pete, let's see. What's that? Yeah, what's our next beverage? There is a book the history of the world and six beverages. I started reading it. I just was not with that well written. So I put it down because the concept is really really nice. Howdy everybody. The feminine aspect of OGM is MIA so far, which hurts my heart, but hopefully more people will show up. And my heart is still hurting from all of the violence that's happening in the world. We can't we can't recover from one incident before we're off into another one. And then I don't want to take us into that as our topic for the day, but it's weighing very heavily on my mind. It's just way too much. Wait, we are too strangely an outlier in that. I like like a bizarre outlier in the same way that our military budget is a bizarre outlier. Wonder if those things are correlated. Um, we have not talked through a topic for today. So the floor is open for suggestions, recommendations and please take in my take into account how you feel about previous topics we've been on where we want to steer our conversation. What is great use of or time and attention. Thanks, Doug. Your dog. I think your dog was recommending a topic. Actually, it's not me. Oh, we have two dogs on the call. So that's what it is. It was Doug, Doug Breitbart, two dogs, two dogs, one dog. There we go. So if anybody would like to start the conversation about a topic, like suggest, stir the pot a little bit. That would be great. Hey, Ken. Hi, Grace. Good morning. Grace, you're not in transit. That's good. You're not in transit. That's pretty good. Yeah. I'm in the jail now, but I'm not in transit. Um, I've been thinking a lot about physical infrastructure these days, like the physical, I was thinking about, you know, the stack in general, right? Like what are the layers of infrastructure and the last 10 days or so I've been spending with a friend, um, looking at properties and talking about treating these eco villages on the ground and then, and we're so dependent on the infrastructure that we've got. I mean, even if you've got solar panels and a satellite link, it's like, well, all that other stuff and I've been thinking about how do we as small groups of people, not just as one, you know, one house, but as multiple houses start to build up this physical infrastructure of food and electricity and internet that we can start depending on one another. I feel like a lot of us have done certain amount of prepper type stuff, but then we're individuals and not an economy. So I've been thinking a lot about that. Like what would that look like for us to collaborate from physical location to physical location in the resource management and sustainability of an economy. Yeah, resistance and underground, whatever you want to call that. Um, two things to add to what you just said, Grace. One is I immediately start thinking of Corey Doctorow's book, Walk Away, where kind of 3D printing has moved far enough into the future and we can upload our plans into the cloud and keep them there, which we could do today. And so it's easy to walk away from some place and create some new settlement, including all the goodies and, you know, all the moving parts. And in fact, every time you have to do that, you make it a little bit better because you've always been tuning your plans as you learn and as you work. And you can, you can build a, you can build an onsen and all kinds of sorts of things, right? But of course that's science fiction. Um, and then there's this huge movement now towards decentralization, decentralization of energy, water capture, other sorts of things, which hasn't doesn't seem to have percolated or permeated into infrastructure very much yet. We're not kind of there, but I think there's a, there's a terrific promise of harnessing a bunch of those things so that local autonomy would be more of a thing. Sorry, Grace. Go ahead. The other thing about walk away was that the junk thrown away by the default society was so, so large in volume that you could create an amazing society just on the junk. And I don't think that science fiction at this point. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and there've been a burst of articles. Doug Carmichael mentioned that this at the top of the call because I mentioned I just fashioned my coffee and we started talking about coffee a little bit that there were some articles in the recent days that people who drink coffee live a little longer. Maybe that is sort of beneficial to us. And how do we, how do we not, how do we figure out how to do these, all these different kinds of things? So infrastructure is in the pot. Anybody else want to throw an ingredient in the pot or a different kind or a different topic or something that's been big for you recently? I was in a discussion two days ago about infrastructure a bit and the issue came up of carbon, excuse me, carbon versus silicon. And the view was that the silicon doesn't cost us anything and it got me thinking how much silicon that we use to do the computing that we're doing. And part of it was motivated by hearing the fact that 17% of all electricity generated in the US goes to computing. So the idea that there is an infrastructure which is carbon friendly might be false. They're just, there is no such thing. There is no such thing as. As a carbon neutral infrastructure possible to jump in. Yeah, I think the topic of decentralization deserves some attention because it's really important in the energy sector because to maintain a stable system, it needs to be redundant. Same is true for the food supply. And it requires a rethinking in the way that support structures are organized. So for example, you may need to decentralize your energy system, but you will need components to build that decentralized energy system that should be that should be produced as efficiently and as central as possible. So it's, it's a, it's a rethinking of supply chains, a rethinking of building the systems in component form that can be customized and assembled at local levels, certainly true for the food system. There have been a couple attempts to design for reuse in different ways. And then the second thing I wanted to put in a conversation was that there have been a bunch of articles recently, or maybe it's just that they're bunching up in my, on my radar about all this stuff we've been told about recycling plastic. It's just mostly hogwash, like extremely little plastic is recyclable, extremely little plastic gets recycled. When plastic makes it to a recycling center, every kind of plastic in fact is complicated and different from the other kinds of plastic. When you blend them, it sprues up their use for any other use, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, unless maybe you're chipping it up and pouring it into alongside asphalt into a roadbed or something, I don't know, or a playground. So Nike sells a mix. I'm forgetting exactly what they call. They don't get a lot of sneakers back, but they grind them up and they make a mix that goes into athletic fields. Basically, it makes a nice cushy layer for track and field, for example, which is a nice, an elegant circle, but small as it goes. Gil. Yeah, a couple of threads. There was a company based in the Bay Area years ago called MBA Polymers that had high tech solutions for separating out all the different kinds of plastics to provide pure fractions. I don't know what happened with it, but I can find out the, the, the, the, all plastics and designed for reuse and recycling economy has been deviled by the same problems as everything else we're talking about, which is that the economy is bullshit and subsidized and nobody pays the real costs of what they do. And so we're all incentivized to do the apparently cheapest thing without regard to what the systems impacts are. So that's a topic we could talk about someday. Maybe not today. I'm, I find it hard to shake Jerry, the topic that you raised and said, let's not talk about. Perfect. Yeah. And I'm not saying that I want to talk about it, but it's hard to shake it. There was just a news item late last night. I don't know if anybody saw it that a Berkeley high school student has been arrested, who was apparently attempting to recruit classmates to do a shooting and bombing at Berkeley high school. So this is not far away, you know, in some other state somewhere. This is, you know, a mile from my house. And then the photographer who's been photographing families with their guns, one of his 40 photos in the book is in my background. He's made the news a bit lately. It's a weird, it's a weird art form. These people are doing like, you know, automatic weapon mandalas. Well, I think, I think there's a, there's a, not a tradition, but there've been a couple other photographers who've gone around the world, photographing like people's household effects. And what they do is they, I'll find the other, the other guy who did this, but he got, he got families to put all of their household effects in front of their house and then pose with their things. So that was a thing that existed. It's a gorgeous book. It's really, I mean, gorgeous and deeply provocative in so many different ways in this. So yeah, he's copying. He's maybe he's building that tradition, but one of the photos showed somebody that had a large glassed in room in their home filled with weapons, you know, a raid, a raid like musical instruments. So there is something about that, something like 3% of the population owns half the guns in the country. Yeah, that's a, that's a stat in one of the I don't know if they're, I don't know if they're collector fetishists or if they see themselves as the armory for the revolution or what, I don't know what they, what they are. Yeah, it might just also be a hobby run amok like people who collected stamps or coins and just went kind of crazy on it because it was so available. Don't know. What's interesting also is that the photos are are jarring partly because the people are posing as if they were posing with their stamp collection or their flower collection in their garden and it's completely. There's there's there's no judgment in the photos. It's just this is a family with their guns. And at the same time, it's like OMG, somebody has that many guns and wow, they've got that and one of those and wait, what? It's really kind of and and I don't know my dad taught me to shoot like I'm comfortable around guns, etc. Know enough not to aim a gun ever at anybody, blah, blah, blah, but there's so many people who don't have even sort of minimal training who are running out to do this. Which is why the good guy with a gun notion is so crazy because you know, you need a lot of training, which brings us back to Rob, especially especially in a high stress situation with other people around which brings us back to Rob elementary, which is there's an argument that Rob elementary proves that a good guy with a gun doesn't really do that much good. It's interesting that topic because it's of course a very US centric topic. This problem isn't anywhere else. But I mean, I'm always curious whenever I come to this call because it's a very US centric call and I don't live in the US and haven't done for a long time. And I always wonder what the heck are you guys still doing living there, especially those of you who have European citizenship? You know, not naming names, but you know, like that's an interesting topic for me. Like what when are you going to like what does it take for you to, you know, like I'm kind of a scaredy cat, right? But like I know that my people have survived by running away and not by fighting whatever the state of Israel may or may not be saying today, you know, 70 years is a very short time in history of my people. So I'm kind of interested in what does it take to have people pick up and leave and that's pretty interesting. Even in the context of the Ukraine, right? So many people picked up and leave left and some of them picked up and left because, hey, you know, I get a free visa to the West, but it's really interesting like that topic for myself. Like what does it take? That's a great question. And that's a nice way to internationalize this very domestic conversation. Like why the hell are we still living in this United States thing? Doug, you have your hand up. Yeah, the idea of having guns displayed is quite old. I mean, if you go to 17th century English houses or Scottish, there is often a hallway that you come into with guns on the wall and heads of strange animals that were killed somewhere. And so one possibility of the display of guns is it's a sign of participating in power and it has also the sign of participating in a class. But but I think in those places, you had much more utility, this much more a much more utilitarian display of guns. These were guns that people actually used and the picture behind Jerry is not a guns that are actually used in the course of life. Also in the article I posted, I think from the Atlantic, the article I posted to the chat, Gabrielle, who is the photographer who went around the US to almost every state said in many houses, everybody said, no, no, no, my guns are locked away. They're really kept pretty well. And in many other houses and I don't want to make the people I visited really angry here guns were lying around everywhere, often loaded and often there were small kids around and he said, this is just this is just strange. So let's swing from Doug to Doug. Mr. Breitbart. Yeah, I I I was sort of wonder if if it would be possible to turn the telescope around on sort of a macro level. There seems to have been sort of a disabling of core value instinct and judgment and discernment and common sense on a lived experiential whole being emotional wet basis. And if you look at each one of the dysfunctions dystopic impacts effects distortions like the picture behind you, you know, there are five bodies that each human being occupies. And if most of the warmer ones, the more feminine ones are disabled, then things float into the intellectual and the abstract. And it becomes possible to over time normalize the insane. So, you know, once upon a time there was a pandemic and everybody does everything they can do to survive like just sort of common sense stuff. Now there's a pandemic not so much like how does that get politicized is sort of on its face. An insane incremental arrival right at a place where all this stuff that on its face, you know, doesn't make sense is okay and acceptable. So, I'm sort of more centered on that like how to reawaken or reconnect on a catalytic basis. People coming to their senses, you know, getting back to a place of what they can just know by knowing if all of their internal capacities are up and running. Thanks, Dan. We've had a few conversations here about the movements and our desires to reconnect people with nature with each other to if only people could see that other people aren't the other of the enemy. We all need to sort out how to how to exist on the planet together. And I don't think we've ever focused on it hard, but it's a it's a big question in my head. It's like we managed to and this is part of what consumerism. I have a few videos I put online about the effects of consumerization of our lives. And for me, when we are mere consumers, whose job is to be rugged individualist, you know, this is kind of the American John Wayne culture and so forth. There's a lovely book, Jesus and John Wayne, which I have not read, but I've read a couple reviews of, which is about how the evangelical far right went far far right with this very masculine view of what it meant to be a man in society. But we've been separated from each other by commerce marketing and consumerism in a lot of ways and that it broke. It worked really well in concert with what capitalism was busy doing with sort of fake abundance, which in fact, it was, you know, single use plastics, all those kinds of things are partly how you make fake abundance is you just wrap everything in fill stores and stores and stores with 12 flavors of KitKats or 50 flavors of KitKats and 50 kinds of tide or whatever it is. Klaus. Yeah, I think we also need to take in mind that we are really living in two different media worlds to different realities. I mean, I think every family has examples of that my cousin lost both of his kids to QAnon and Pult Boys. You know, his son is impossible to talk with anymore and he has an arsenal of weapons accumulated. You know, my wife has a middle sister who instantly after the shooting, recent shooting here started posting images of guns and rejection of gun control and so on on Facebook that was so offensive. I felt compelled to actually respond to it and just explain my my disgust, which resulted in the breakage now because the reality that is being created by this right wing media is so powerful. Now, you can't break through it. I mean, all you end up with is a sort of uncomfortable conversation and this total insistence of of being right. You know, it's not guns that kill people. It's people that kill people and so on. And so the and the the ugliness of of these discussions, you know, where and and this is like Christians. I'm pointing out the basic idea of Christianity and Jesus and so on is sort of counter to ignoring that you just lost 19 children and two teachers to to an 18 year old kid who was able to buy a military crate weapon without any challenge, a kid that had issues before it came to that point. So this the and then when you when you look at Fox News, I'm subscribed to some places where they do analytics on on this media world there. The they're putting everything instantly into into a perspective and into a context that makes sense of why even so everything seems to be wrong. It's still right now. So for example, this this court case where and I can't think of the names right now, but this one guy got got cleared of talking of of this working for Clinton and talking about Trump and the Russia engagement and so on. But in Fox News, the they instantly claimed the jury, you know, this was a left-wing jury. So the the the case should have been one, but it got lost because of the jury selection and and so it makes it okay again that we lost this case, but now it's just there. There's a reason for it. So you just can't think straight when you are embedded, you know, in this world and then and the the cognitive dissonance that you're creating when you're introducing a different compelling argument basically ends up in altering the relationship. It doesn't solve. It doesn't result in a logical discussion. So I don't know how we can break this, but the the amazing thing is that we have, you know, a public TV channel in an entire media world that fuels this this this conflict and that fuels this dissonance where any reasonable person can look at this is distorted information. It's propaganda and we can't stop it. We are unable to stop it and I think that's what makes America so crazy in comparison to other countries. Grace, I'm just typing in a chat which what does it take? Do you mean do you mean what does it take just to change us to sort of fix this? Or do you mean what does it take for you to get up and leave for us to get up and leave? Okay, that's what you meant. I'm not sure all of us are convinced that leaving is the right answer and that we I think many of us I will I will try to speak broadly, but generally many of us harbor the hope that we can actually sort of help fix this thing and and that's hard to do from far away. Anybody who sort of feels that way raise your hand that by staying we're sort of like able to help not that many. Okay. Paul, Ken, Doug. I don't think running away is the answer. I don't think about it in the country is the answer, you know. Jerry, my wavy hand is not that I think I can help but I think that I have to try. Yeah, I'm saying what Ken was saying. Yeah. Doug, Doug be then Pete, but but I but I do often consider Grace's question. And when April and I now then talk about that question as well. I mean, we we we talk about it and then we're like, you know, we can make a difference here. Can I say one thing there? I've talked with a friend who's in the disaster relief business about about where to live. You know, given Grace, thank you, you know, no air through months a year and earthquakes and everything else and water and so forth. And his conclusion from having looked around the world is this is not a this is not a terrible place to be all risks considered. So it's not an easy answer. It's absolutely not an easy answer. Sorry, go ahead, Doug. I you know, I sort of a fundamental value belief that I hold is it's all of us are none of us. Like we're headed toward a global extinction. Planets seen five previously. It doesn't care if we want to do this to ourselves. It'll roll, you know, roll the dice and start over again without us and anything that isn't fundamentally rooted in a premise of all of us are none of us means we're going extinct because once you let the us versus them enter the picture and let that the nose of that camel in the tent, you're continuing to do what we're doing now and we're going extinct. So so that piece isn't complicated. And and that quick, you know, and when you start getting into, you know, should I be buying my two and a half acres of New Zealand for when the end of times it's sort of like what what what are you thinking? Like the planet is going to be, you know, it's going to be an extinction level of that and it's going to take everybody out in two and a half acres of New Zealand will not be exempt. So if it's all of us or none of us, then the orientation to how to fix that. Um, also has to carry the idea that every man, woman and child on the planet has value and ability to contribute because that sort of goes hand in hand with the first premise and the minute you start shifting into that orientation. It really changes the what you know what what what the it is that, you know, we haven't figured out yet, but that is needed to really shock the system and catalyze it into coming from love rather than fear and fractionalism and, you know, competition and power over and all the old stuff. I don't know whether we as a species are evolved enough to pull it off before we emulate ourselves. But, you know, five, one half dozen the other six and one half dozen the other right, I'll be an optimist and say it's worth trying. Like that's for me. Thank you. I've Pete then Paul. Thanks all and thanks Doug. I have well, I wish I could be a little bit more. I have a kind of a flat footed answer to Grace's question and I feel called to speak it just because Grace was really interested in the answer to the question. I very selfishly I don't get worried. I'm not worried about getting shot in the United States kind of because of where I live and kind of because of the numbers. So and and meaning no disrespect to the dead or their loved ones or no minimization of their loss. But selfishly the big problem that I have with mass shootings in the U.S. is is actually not the deaths themselves even though those are really tragic. It's the mind fucks after that of people like ringing their hands and saying oh my God we have to stop this or oh my God this is so terrible or or it's horrific and heartbreaking or you know whatever the phrase of the day is. Psychically that that takes a real toll on me and if I were to move away because of gun violence in the U.S. would be that so I've had to rationalize it you know as they kind of get worse or they get closer together or something like that or closer geographically sometimes the rationalizations I have is that okay I live in a society that has you know has a God called guns and we offer tribute to it and the tribute that we offer kind of like hunger games to the God of guns is pick a random school or a random workplace or a random wall and you're going to die you know and there is some small percentage of us that die that way. For me it's not unlike the way that we think about cars cars are a scourge on humanity and a scourge on the United States with the way that we've got them set up suburbs and freeways and all that kind of stuff toxic pollution you know and it's a cost of doing business a cost of living in the United States it's just the way that we've kind of set up our society and you know I and kind of the list goes on for me education is that way to the way that we do education is extremely toxic and extremely bad for our future the way that that we the way that we spend on military budget is just insane even though I kind of benefit from it you know if you step back and look at it and look at the numbers as Jerry was saying the way that we're an outlier it's insane and and it's not like I haven't had the experience of being elsewhere in the world Japan is the place where I've been to I don't know a couple handfuls of countries Japan was the place where it felt super safe and I could actually feel it felt to me like I'm a turtle and I have this shell in my back and I could actually take my shell off and walk around and not worry about not worry about getting mugged not worry about getting pickpocketed I was with a buddy and he left his computer bag on a subway platform and you know a day later we were in touch with the police the police were going dude I think you lost this bag you know after thousands of people I would walk past it and and the thing that they did with it was make sure that it got closer to being found right watching kids in the subway literally six year old kids going back and forth the school you know in a subway it's like and then you come back to the United States and it's like okay I guess I got put the shell back on there's places in the city I go that you know I have to be concerned about being mugged or there's places where I can walk and my my friends who are female or my wife can't walk there at night because it's not safe you know it's a bullshit way to live but you know I've got a lot of benefits of being here to I know the history and I pretty much know the culture I can avoid the you know the things that aren't safe I can try to turn off the TV or not listen when we get into some you know ranting back and forth about whether or not we're going to do anything this time about guns so a little bit of a little bit of just momentum I guess staying in the same place and I you know and another thing you used to it too you know I would be scared living in a place where there's tornadoes but I'm not scared living in a place where there's earthquakes because I grew up with earthquakes and you know I've been through a couple that were pretty scary and I survived and most people survive so it's an interesting question it and and I think about it that the times I really think about you know I got to get out of this country because it's that shit and saying it's when we have crazy politicians in power and some of us you know a good percentage of the country actually thinks that's a good thing when it's you know worse for them usually so having people the more people in power who have crazy decision making makes me think about leaving more mask gun mass shootings do not that's the thing that gives me a bit of hope is that my amateur theory on a piece of what's happening to us is that half the country has been spun up into a series of fears we will white people are being replaced everything is violent and dangerous lots of crazy people are running around and we're going to kill us anyway we better arm we better harden our schools and arm our teachers and any any number of things that are from my amateur observations again actually not true or misconstrued I mean white replacement theory like white people in America in fact do to be minority population any day now because that's just what's been happening for years and years and years anyway there's a whole bunch of narratives there that that I think are a little bit back to what Doug B said I think they're underminable through love and connection it's just that love takes time and courage and we're not doing enough for much of it and I'm we can come back to that Paul please so I live in really really really red country when we go to the feed started by chicken feed the the wall behind the counter is selling AR 15 and we have a bat ship militia group here we're making national news Shasta County is the they got three right wing people on the board of supervisors and they fired the the health off public health officer and it's going to be a primary next week to see whether those guys get thrown out or reinforced so anyway I live in very very red country and I consider myself a rural progressive because one of my great frustrations about this whole thing is I think liberals do not really honor and understand rural people and the classic comment I see over and over again like New York Times and all like that is they always comment on education level and that the the is the uneducated people who vote for Trump and such as that and I'm the educated people are the people who are on Wall Street looting the country and so education by itself is not a virtue and that a lot of the rural people they might not have college education because they can't afford it but they sure know how to run a backhoe and pull a pump and do and take care of the land and help their neighbor and they are subject to dollar generals coming into their towns and and depleting the economy and I really think it's so important for us to engage to understand that other point of view and not view it as just totally off the mark. So anyway, I'll stop there. I could brand on but I'll stop right there. Thanks. I'm Grace hoping is the background noise a little bit not so bad this year, but your earbuds are helping. Okay, changing the earbuds. Okay. So I mean it's very interesting because the part of this came also through the physical infrastructure because my friend came last week and we were looking at properties to create this eco village and he and he wants residency by by investment. I know he's somebody who knows bunch of you as well and then my sense really was that it was more about neither a spoke this out that it was more about where do we feel that we can implement our vision like these of your mission in life and a few of your spoke about that like we feel like we can make a difference here better than there and one of the things that he and I were talking about was community and living in community and a more communal attitude that they have here in Europe and that some of the experiments that we want to run just seem easier to do here and I know for myself one of the reasons I moved is I just felt I needed a more global view and I was living in this little country. So you know I really enjoy hearing that as well like not like it's I think for a lot of us it's not as much a personal decision but like where do I actually think I can make a difference and that was really comforting to hear from a lot of you. So yeah that was like it's not not just what would it take but also like what are my considerations and where am I you know where is the weight of the rest of my life going and I think Paul spoke to that to you know like okay you know I'm in this location where people have skills and they understand the word of being in the word like being a neighbor to somebody else. Yeah. Thanks Grace that that neighborliness thing is really really important. If only we had somebody on the call who was focused on neighborhood economics. Kevin welcome I know you've missed a lot of what we were talking about but we've been sort of wandering around why does America love guns so much Grace asked us why are you all still living in the U.S. And then we've gone lots of other other kinds of places and and it feels to me like like of all of us who are in these sets of conversations you were really really deeply embedded in local communities with people who don't look like you helping them establish long lasting economic benefit sort of economic social the whole sort of the whole package a piece of me is wondering like is there is there code anyone could copy and borrow to sort of fork and pull the designs you've got and go pull a walk away because I mentioned Corey doctors book walk away you know earlier where the instructions for running one of these things are actually available and you just you just make them a little bit better and then go start a new a new town somewhere else because the luxury of technology lets you build and find resources wherever you want to go that's that's like the big bet from walk away so I can go ahead. Yeah you know the thing that we're seeing is the most easily scalable architecture for creating community wealth is a multi donor donor advice fund platform impact assets raised 8.6 million to do it and you can leave it behind in any community and we've now figured out how to leave it behind led by BIPOC entrepreneurs who are deeply embedded in the community but have enough financial savvy you know somebody with 20 years CDFI or banking experience to be able to run it and then they do outreach to the community foundations where you reach sort of the United Way mainstream you know golfing crowd kind of thing and we're finding that that infrastructure becomes super flexible and we're we're doing it here in Western Illinois but also Indianapolis at the same time and and we think we're we're getting a template of those and then there are things that you can share once you have that platform right it's it's the railroad or whatever and so like our community equity fund which is really working to raise about 3 million is solving the problem of a friends and family funding for black and brown entrepreneurs that don't have a rich hand or uncle and it solves a gap that CDFI community about institutions hadn't been looking at until George Floyd and we're turning it into a kit that you could have on any marketplace it's a starter kit kind of and we're finding some other things that become you know things that can be easily replicable infrastructure if you get this group of people with this group of people and we're finding what you know if if you're CDFI doesn't do small business lending we can't come to your town so there's there's gating factors you have to have we have a community foundation here that is notably solid and we reached out to them and they said they said we have no intention of being cutting edge and I said thank you so much to usually I get three meetings with an underling in a windowless room before I become clear that that's what you were really saying but there's a community foundation we're working with and so there are pieces of infrastructure that make things really replicable there you know there are kind of like if you're building railroads there are two or three pieces that stick well together and and we don't have an operating system we have multiple pieces that stick well together it's pretty easy to sell it and most mainline church endowments in the Christian church on a 5% return on preserving Black Wall Street through neighbors investing in neighbors they can buy that we're working with a consortium of those endowments who were saying you know I can I can sell 5% to my board so we're and we're being asked to organize a fund that we're not going to do a fund but other people will lead it it'll fill a lot of these gaps and things but we have customers who were who were saying they want to put some money together and we're trying to you know we're trying to build the systemic infrastructure to make it easier to replicate you know because there's a bunch of genius folks we're just trying to get their stuff replicable I do sense that and the marketplace is is the essential infrastructure and it doesn't cost anything it's 1% management fee on an annual basis and it enables you to build a lot of other things I was looking through my notes and I found I found the community equity fund slot a deck basically and I'm looking at the Asheville community funding kit but I'm not I'm not figuring out where where if you have a sort of a nexus for the community economics neighborhood economics kit that you're talking about well it doesn't exist yet I mean the community equity fund is going to build a kit the marketplaces we're in ideation next week on wireframes with somebody from OGM and Caitlyn who's in this network and the folks from Eagle Market Street and and two other guys that are bringing the first deals to the marketplace the thing we're going to solve locally to make us really popular is workforce housing because people who work in Asheville can't afford to live here and those people have relationships with the affluent folks who could give us more money because they're their massage therapists who have to drive 45 miles so there's no NIMBY to solve that and we're going to do we have a model that working California twice of workforce housing using unused church space and we're going to replicate the financial stack and the model there and I think everybody really like it and so we're trying to build the marketplaces to solve big problems that people talk about that they care about and then you get into things they care about for you know but we're going to start with big things that that they're that feels like a pain to everybody. Super interesting thank you there's also movement you I'm sure you know about called Reburbia which is trying to take back big box stores to close down because somebody else open the competitor or because the company decided this was no longer a profitable neighborhood even though they follow local little business. No interesting. Yeah so how you know there's a there's a lot of empty land that's that's reusable there's just no funding to tear it down and rebuild it or adapt it and we're going to need to do a whole lot of that just to get we've been approached by three indigenous groups to do a neighborhood economics about essentially Indian country but the folks from Standing Rock can't work with the folks who take community reinvestment money from Wells Fargo and then there's folks in the middle who can work with everybody. So we're trying to see if the Standing Rock can stand out enough to take dirty bank money to cause it to happen. You know they're they're both purists and hungry and sleeping on on you know on couches. So yeah yeah thanks Kevin. Solve that. Okay. As as you move further in if I can just sort of put a pin on any way we can help build a durable kit that's visible and replicable like let us know that think that's a really useful project for GM and yeah there are people starting to figure that part out so I would be glad to we want to be in the network between the marketplaces so we want to rep these kits. You're a glial cells. Gleal cells for healing community. What are glial cells. So everybody thinks it's just neurons that do all the heavy lifting in your brain it turns out that the neurons are kind of held in place by glia which are also kind of neurotransmitters of different kinds and play different sorts of roles. They're not just wall board holding up neurons that do all the lifting for for what our brain does. So I'll post the link to glia or or Pete'll beat me to a problem because I'm about to call on Michael and Gil. Well thanks for asking. So you know I could go on forever as it seems obvious. If you're here all week guys remember to typically. Yeah I was I was going to speak to to Grace's question and why am I still here and I think you know all the things that that are disturbing have become more disturbing. I mean the fact that this country is set up in such a way you know in the existence of the electoral college and the way that say populations have shaken out that that we could elect or not elect but but have a president Donald Trump and minority rule that we do by the Senate and even the gerrymandered House over representing pretty extreme right-wing positions. The thing that I find keeps me here is the desire to push back against that and not surrender to it because this country does have such an effect on the rest of the world and as much leverage as I can get as an ordinary person talking to ordinary people seems important. I have my wife and I have you know we still spend some time in Brooklyn but we've essentially moved to a rural area north of New York City that is politically very divided represented by you know somewhat moderate Republicans but you know my neighbor flies a 13 star American flag and a an American a blue line American flag the black and white flag with a blue line it which is a you know kind of blue lives matter thin blue line symbol you know yeah another Trump voter very proud loud Trump voter not far away still flying a 2020 flag and you know I'm I'm feel called compelled to be active in the you know the community website and newsletter and it has me talking to the X cop you know pro pro Trump board president about you know what goes in the newsletter and you know and has him thinking about my point of view and me thinking about his point of view and like us you know lowering temperatures among people around us and you know finding a little bit of common ground and you know the elections up there become more and more closely divided and and our neighbor congressional district has a Democratic Party gay representative well you know me we don't and I mean that's leverage it's it's to me to me that's being at the point of leverage to live in Brooklyn be registered voter in Brooklyn I don't make a difference and up there I feel like I make a difference and being in this country trying to make a difference given the leverage that this country has in the rest of the world seems like a reason to stay and it may be you know it may be feudal made may be headed to hell but I I guess I believe that there are possibilities of change and feel like you know in whatever small way it's important to engage and I really was you know resonated with some of the stuff that Paul was saying and you know that that there's you know the the the basket of deplorables bullshit is is really really really counterproductive and and that's not where people are coming from and the fact that there were people who voted for Bernie in the primaries and then voted for Trump you know or or then voted for Jill Jill Stein is you know is another part of what's responsible for Trump and I'm not saying that that would have done it by itself though it might have but you know we have to listen better and talk better and and be at points points of leverage so leverage points in the system. Thanks Michael yeah. Yeah leverage points in the system I've heard of that I was going to respond to Kevin but first to Michael I strongly agree I think one of the reasons I stay here is is is out of loyalty to the whole not out of loyalty to this place because as this country influences the fate of the world to an enormous disproportionate and terrible degree and so shifting here is part of my loyalty to the rest of the 8 billion of us. Yeah. The the Bernie supporters for voted for Trump I think is widely misunderstood. It's not that they were inherently racist and bad nasty deplorable people it's that they were pissed off at what's going on and Bernie spoke to that and Hillary didn't and Trump did and so there's kind of undifferentiated unsophisticated maybe saying we're going to go with the guy who's going to try to break this thing up more than support for any of what well knew what he was standing for at that point to Kevin I think the work that Kevin is doing is enormously important both in the specifics of the design of what they're doing and the develop and the strategy of developing replicable kits. You know which is the way that folks like us do scale we don't do Silicon Valley scale of vertical hockey stick unicorn we do scale of dispersed horizontal federated. So I think it's a brilliant move and is you know potentially an extremely good use of OGM met a project the capacities and interests that we have here to think about what other kits are needed what other kits are possible where can they be prototyped happen they be propagated. You know in the in the work that we're doing trying to build a a holding company to generate ecologically grounded. Employee and community rooted companies. You know we're going to build an instance of that but we're going to open source the playbook that's been the instinct from the beginning in that same spirit. Kevin my question for you is I understand why you are focusing initially on BIPOC entrepreneurs. But I what I listened was was something exclusionary like you know I understand why to start there but this is something that could go for all entrepreneurs of all sorts and focusing on BIPOC entrepreneurs could fuel white disaffection. I'm sure that's not your intent or probably what's going on but that's how I heard what you said so could you yeah more sure well you know it goes back to family wealth okay average black family has under 10,000 and wealth in the average white family has 110,000. So your chances of getting friends and family funding in the white community are higher. Yeah but there are a lot of there are a lot of white folks who don't have rich uncles. I'm sure you know but I'm working with African American folks I've known for years who were working on that problem. Yeah 90% plus so like you know 90% plus of African American businesses are sole proprietors and they can't get CDFI loans and we fill that gap. No other sector has 90% plus have fewer than three employees as their main bulging demographic majority but for them it's 90% that's because of the friends and family gap. So just a suggestion like I said I completely understand why do you want to focus there and I support it. Yeah. There may be something in the languaging that opens up a possibility of other people taking this kid and running with it in different communities that are not. I mean I think there's no we did it to fill this particular gap yeah you can do it for other folks. It's just it's built for that gap you know it's built for a sole proprietor with two or three employees been around three years 50 to 100,000 revenue totally totally got it. I'm just inviting you to think about maybe the message at some point maybe. No you always have to as you expand you always have to be aware of fragile white folks in the room. I mean for sure I mean we were designing in access for fragile white folks all over the place and I can go into how we're doing that. I mean we're doing workforce housing. Maybe there's a business opportunity there. Yeah there's mostly you know white white so we are a tourism place that is based on healing tourism right you go here and you get your crystals cracked or whatever and so those are the folks that have relationships and those that's where we're working on workforce housing nothing racial there at all these are these are you know teachers you can't live here there's a story in the paper last week. So yeah our big funnel is to your white folks you care very little that's that's the heart of it. And that's why we're doing equity crowdfunding aggregation so all you want to do is just invest in local businesses and then you can look at the other things in the marketplace. I tend to focus way down on the mission focused stuff Stephanie is really wiser she said you can build the marketplace for those who care. I want to reach those who care just a little bit and so she's building a whole lot broader and and and she's good at getting things done without scaring white folks she's got a lot of experience of that. That's great Kevin what's her name. Stephanie sweeps in 20 she's she's the founder of the CEO of Eagle Market Streets and we've done the fund and she's leading in building the marketplace and I'm kind of a scout for the marketplace finding pipeline stuff. She is like you I mean she is designing in for fragile white folks who care very little or only cared now and then. Michael is your hand still up from before. Thanks and Gill you just spoke. I mentioned in a shadow moment ago that hacking pastures dot com might be a useful thing and indulge me for a second in an amateur theory but I think if we change the sermons in evangelical churches. A lot it would actually shift the country tremendously that part of the reason people are so fearful and on fire is that evangelical churches have gone off the deep end. And there was an interesting article recently about an evangelical who had half his congregation leave because he wasn't radical enough and they went to another place that was sort of balling up you know it was it was rolling up a lot of attendees because they were willing to be radical and and there's another thought that intrudes here which is Democrats have forgotten how to be angry and I apologize because this thought runs contrary to the let's approach with love and patience approach that I normally have but I a couple a couple of Democrats recently got really angry including the woman from the Michigan House of the Michigan State Legislature who got really really angry and people who feel left behind feel like people who are angry are fighting for them. There's these things are all kind of tied together and it's like liberals keep saying no let's just do taxes and build big programs and that'll fix it and people who are skeptical don't aren't buying that for a minute they'd rather buy somebody who's a bull in China shop. There's another argument nearby which is that a lot of Bernie people went over to Trump because they were voting for a fire ship. Basically they wanted to push a fire in it in the age of sale of fire ship is when you're in a naval battle you take your oldest your oldest ship you pull everything of value off it that you can you load it up with more combustibles but it's made out of pitch tar and rope and wood you light you then light it on fire and sail it into the opposing fleet and hope that several ships catch fire and it's actually a pretty good strategy and so Trump one under my collection of reasons people voted for Trump is that Trump was a fire ship intentionally designed to destroy the existing system which was rigged and that's a fine piece of logic in my head I'm like I believe the system is rigged to I just wouldn't take that path I wouldn't roll the dice on that particular path but I can I can understand it entirely so what's the best thing we can do together class jump in. Yeah I mean my my take has been the first the first step would be to help people help themselves and getting food and shelter now is the is the first thing that people that people need. So instead of all this material and hate and copy paste right wing media into your Facebook page what can you do in your community but it it does take a support structure you know the the the the entire mean I mean right now the big thing is farm bill right when everybody you know the whole is focusing on the front bill because the front bill puts billions of dollars into the economy pushing everything into the wrong direction towards commodity cores and then large food providers if that money could be distributed differently you know so where you build community food systems where you will where you can call limited numbers one acre two acres three acres worth of produce and have some chicken and some rabbits and whatever and you can monetize that know in the economy that would make a huge difference now to help people to to sustain themselves and so right now there is no hope there is no vision when you are at the bottom of the economy as to where you should go and what you should be doing so what Kevin is doing is wonderful but it needs to be amplified and but what Kevin is doing I mean what what many many NGOs are doing at the ground level cannot compensate or stem against these billions of dollars that are being pushed into the into the economy through things like the farm bill and and and related government types of spending so it requires a shift you know in thinking and and instead if we could mobilize the energy that is right now going into dividing you know sections of the economy into mobilizing a crown swell support and it really really starts with food and shelter now love that thank you Doug Doug C. Oh in my community which is basically Sonoma County in northern California we have a world of apple orchards that got turned into vineyards and in that process land ownership became more concentrated if you look at the county there's a lot of land that's owned by the vineyards that could be used for growing vegetables what if we had a radical proposal as as any land which is free and open could be taken by anybody who's willing to grow vegetables on it and that the old owners have no recourse period well maybe not no recourse maybe they get 10% of whatever gets grown I mean one of my favorite TEDx talks ever was an early one about the town of Todd Morton northern England and it's about edible landscapes how they basically planted edible foods everywhere they called up the police station said mind if we change your rose bushes for for lemon trees and they were like sure thumbs up and Todd Morton became a tourist destination it helped revitalize the city and create community there's a whole bunch of really great things so Doug and I'm not sure it needs to be done with a heavy hand I think it it's one of many different ways to actually tip people into working together towards something they could actually do together and you don't have to be red or blue or purple or anything to go plant like edible foods in your neighborhood that's a lovely thing so I'm wondering how to catalyze more of that activity I think it's a fabulous idea and a piece of it is land rights spotting rights whatever else but we've had it we've had little glimmers of this also things like yard sharing right there were a couple early in the sharing economies early salad days I don't know why it's called salad days you could say hey I've got some plum trees in my backyard that I never have time to harvest if somebody will come in and harvest them I'll keep a few and you can have the rest of that worked out fine yeah I think these are this gets back to like it's kind of funny like we're covering a lot of the topics that we mentioned at the beginning right we're getting back to this physical infrastructure and and I actually think that what Kevin's doing is really a foundational thing and you know we're all talking about that but I'm really curious and don't have the answer to this question together what are we working with you together what is that together together what is that what is the what is the the the vacillium that finds us that connects us to one each other and it's interesting I listened to one of the lion's bird calls which are you know quite long very extremely long and they were talking about you know and I asked this question like how is this lion's bird metaproject different than what we've been labeling game B and one of the things I think that we're doing together you know this felt to me like something was like we want to be in a weekly call with some people we really like right that's why I come to this call I don't think it's productive it's definitely productive as well and like the traditional productive or you know capitalist productive sense but more than that it's like I get to be with some people who I relate to is you know my people you know I've kind of found my people right here I am with my and that's really an important thing and to be honest about that like I don't really come to these calls to be productive even though that is a side effect but I come to these posts and I like you and and feel comfortable at home and you know kind of and I had a little bit of a run in with Ken because I can't believe that you actually like me and accept me you know like that was kind of hard for me to believe just as a group right like that imposter syndrome like am I really in the right group and that's part of the togetherness but I think there's something better like the thing that that Kevin was talking about earlier like creating this body of knowledge that are templates open IP and what we're doing on the matter most and like what is that together that some people who are doing yard sharing and plum sharing and car sharing can plug into it right just like we can plug into the electricity and know that they're a part of it and know that they're belonging to it just like I have a credit card and a passport I think I've talked about that several times like with a credit card and a passport I know I belong to a particular network so what is that together and how do we start to bind that thing in a you know not bind in a tight way but but have the circulatory system. Thanks Grace that's that's a really nutritional idea in some sense, nutritive idea sorry and and there's kind of a radical expression of it maybe which would be something I call nations of choice, which is maybe what's happening is we're in a period where sovereign nations the old nation state are starting to kind of wane in influence and power and crypto and other sorts of things are cutting across nation state boundaries of course but also I've sort of long wondered why is Burning Man not a nation people join. Why doesn't it have some kind of citizenship that could be completely play citizenship it could be just just like hey I've got a I've got a Burning Man passport and that and four bucks will get me a coffee at Starbucks, but but then slowly turning it into something meaningful and I'll connect that to a neighboring thought which is when when when we use Google Docs or whatever we're using a really powerful suite that Google doesn't charge us any money to use. Why don't we get identity plus power tools in the hands of refugees who have nothing and who are not allowed to work in many cases and who are really really jammed and why don't why don't we why don't we create some way to give refugees a global status or become citizens of this nation of choice or one of several nations of choice where they have they can sort of attach value and skills and whatever to their new identity. And I don't see that we're doing that I think that and I think we're going to have more and more and more refugees right. So anyway there's a lot of possibility in the air but we're not connecting the dots well enough to make these things into platforms that are causing change that are relieving the pressure on the people who are feeling the pressure of the very real crises that are in the air. Kevin then Doug B. Yeah, thanks. I have a question for the group. We have this a watershed group that was trying to look at the donor and economics approach to our watershed and we're in on what's one or river watershed and people think of themselves that way. I mean, people move here because of the mountains and the rivers and stuff. And the donor economics includes essentially the social undershoot and the ecological overshoot and you're trying to find the living space for safe living space for people on this planet and it's given a lot of attention and people are coming and there are two professors from across the river. We live on the river and for more in Wilson they're the environmental professors and they have 10 students to do a capstone project studying the watershed. And I'm just, you know, I'm kind of thinking and this is happening on a little tinted to the land that has water and electricity and whatever and bathrooms or right around. But, you know, maybe I should give it to the college. I mean, should something like if we build a local donut economics thing that help people manage their climate change locally and there's a particular tax that the town of Black Mountain has to just start paying because the river's impaired. But if they could stop their runoff they could make their taxes to go down and collectively respond to climate change. So, you know, and it's linked to people getting sick downstream in the displaced communities by the Biltmore. So should that be owned by some institution it has real signs of being something, you know, it's going to outgrow my tin on my farm pretty soon probably, I don't know, but should it be owned by a college? Assuming it works. This is actually the topic of the webinar I'm working on with the Sierra Club. So I'm partnered with the Sierra Club water sentinels which are focused on watershed and watershed repair. When you think that in some states 80% of water is being used by the farm and that how many tons of nitrogen is being put you know, onto the soil. That's really the origin of this water contamination and you can't fix it until the farmer starts putting in mounds to prevent nitrate runoff or it reduces the nitrate input and all of those things that costs money and there are a host of programs in the federal in the farm bill in the in the conservation component of the farm bill that do pollinator protection putting in pollinator strips. You know, they do nutrient enrichment and so on biodiversity enrichment. So there are multiple funds. Now that I get towards fixing watersheds and water is of course what binds everyone people when you talk about climate change that's that's abstract. You know, there's so much noise in there but when you talk about water and you live in the Lake Erie area and you have all chill booms coming down every year and you have to spend millions of dollars in your community to upgrade your water filtration systems. Those things resonate with people but the core point is we can't fix this stuff until we fix the political system. Now that spends money in the wrong direction. So for example, the first thing the Trump administration was doing is to defund the conservation programs and put the money into corn and soy because that's where the political power is. So we need to engage the political process. Now we can't fix these things in isolation when you when you have a system that works against you that has so much more in resources than any community or NGO could ever muster. And so that's what we what I really would that's what what you see this broad coalition. Now looking at the farm bill and working hyper-local now talking to your local member of Congress about what you need in your community. Now to fix what is a very local problem. And then people understand that I can't you know I have thousands of dead fish on my beach in Florida because the Mississippi River Delta pushes down all this nitrate that flowing of the farms. Once people connect the dots on those things then you can get the political will and action to respond. And without that there is no way of of of fixing anything here. Thanks. Doug B. Yeah, I you know I'm sort of garage mechanic in my orientation to all of this. So you know for me the you know the the the dark wolf and the light wolf and who wins everybody here is familiar with that parable and which will which wolf do you want to feed and I've pretty much committed a hundred percent of my energy to at least my perception of the white wolf which is what's the new that I would have manifest and I think you know that we're we're in a birthing process. And birthing processes are really loud and messy and bloody painful and painful and but that's what's going on and a lot of the old systems and a lot of the old power centers and a lot of the old stuff is barely standing up. Like it's it's all revealing its vulnerabilities and its illusions and delusions and and missile and values and all the rest. And so that question about we're all here and what you know what we do together and I'd be really interested in I I spend all of my time living in a frame of emergence and the present moment like right now that's being created by me speaking right now and if I forget about everything in the rear view mirror and I forget about projecting into a future that doesn't exist and clear the present moment and and the operating question is what's needed like right now what's needed and start from literally a blank sheet of paper it's really shifting the paradigm and how we co-create together and it also is really challenging because it means everybody's got to leave all their stuff at the door that they're that you know is the center of their existence in life and everybody has to lose that addiction to projections that provides a comfort in orientation but is fundamentally illusory because it's for a future that doesn't exist yet don't know whether that'll ever converge so like new tricks new ways of being in the moment as co-creators that's where I'm spending a huge amount of I've been spending the last bunch of years and the only thing that that has managed to get its nose in the tent from the past is actually ancient which is the five elements and the five elements traditions but that's just because like that that came out of people looking at reality and nature and going you know what are the what are the ingredients of right now so I share that just because the collective one potential collective opportunity for for this group would be instead of filling it with the prevailing paradigm and everybody's initiatives and attachments and visions and solutions and and contributions would be to actually declare it a free zone to experiment and explore co-creating from a completely new orientation and consciousness and way of thinking about what do we want to manifest so I offer that just as a as an idea I don't I don't I don't have any attachments in my life these days to anything and I don't have an attachment to that suggestion and my experience has been that it is a very challenging thing to do especially for a bunch of people that you know are really brilliant and are really engaged with everything that's going on and all the efforts and all the sparks and glimmers of what might help and contribute to saving ourselves but just wanted to offer that grace in response to your question of like what way we do together and you know like anyway done thank you let's let's empty the space for a second and sit with what you just said and then I'd love to step in real quick to engage with what you just said and then go to Pete and then we'll be pretty near the end of our time but let's just go into silence for a bit so so much of what you just said resonates strongly with me and the place where the place where I think I have some difference with what you said is a place of starting with a clean slate which I think is really difficult and I have a not very mature set of ideas around this that I link them to beginner's mind and I date this back to I was a tech industry trans analyst and everybody you know TCP IP was showing up as a possible way to reinvent the phone system and back in that day we used to do long distance and pay a lot of money for it and I carried a long distance card from MCI with me at one point in my past and we all kind of had all these little dialing systems and suddenly today we're like we're sitting here in full video at zero marginal cost with the cost of the data centers that are that are helping us do this but OMG we've come to a completely different place and what I meant by beginner's mind back then was I kind of knew enough about how pots the plain old telephone system worked to have a good argument with somebody from the phone system and then I understood enough about how the inner tubes worked to go oh wait a minute and I was a I was on the advisory board to AT&T labs when Dave Nagel was in charge of it and at one meeting I was like dudes just IP voice over IP is big it's going to be and the engineers were like dude TCP IP is just terrible for voice it was totally not engineered to do this and then at the next meeting they started the meeting with a demo of voice over IP between their willow park Menlo Park willow street and Berlin offices or something like that and I'm like oh okay but but what I mean by by beginners mind is there are really a whole big batch of good ideas out there what's what's dangerous is seizing on the ideas and modes of being that drag us back into the ruts of the local minima that we've been in for so long that are completely dysfunctional what's really hard is bouncing your little ball out of that local minimum into some over some high energy ridge that takes like a lot of change into some new place to being that disrupts the other systems around it but might actually lead us into a better place and grace this has a lot to do with how we see money and wealth and and the assumptions we make about about about value and how value is stored whether it should be stored like demarrage currency say yeah you when you try to store value we we in fact put a little hole in the bottom of that of that container because because money should be circulating that's a very different way of thinking about money from the current way of thinking about money so so Doug why I'm excited about a shared memory and and sort of sharing what you know and taking Kevin's work in local living economies and neighborhood economics and making a toolkit that's that's fork and pullable so that other people can go oh I'm not one of those people but I really love this plan I'm going to just go add water and stir and put it in some place I'm reminded of a story I heard long ago of a couple who were doing micro finance micro savings not micro finance so in micro savings the community pools money little at a time and then they give that out to different people it's an ancient tradition but they brought a system in someplace in the world came back came back five years later or more to check on it and their system had died and then they were informed that 10 local villages had picked up the system and we're thriving had adapted it had basically said oh we like that we're going to go use it so it had a contagion effect even though the original project died super how do we lather rinse repeat on that and that's the reason why walk away keeps coming up in my head is that walk away as has a plot sort of arc that we can store our ideas of good design together right and in the meantime I have other thoughts that books and PDFs are where good ideas go to die because we're busy over protecting those ideas we don't let those ideas actually live in the world like the smartest humans write books and then we wrap them with DRM and make it really hard to go implement what they said or discuss it or debate is like what the hell is up with that so anyway so sorry you used a bunch of different complicated issues for me but for me I don't want to start with a clean slate I want to start with beginners mind and then go back and harvest the great stuff that's already in the world the juicy nuggets that are out there and then figure out how they fit better run experiments try to collect data be in conversation with groups like this so that we can sort that shit out together and I think that lather rinse repeat on that gets us someplace right so with that Pete then Doug see and you all will have the last words. Thanks I wanted to because Kevin mentioned watersheds and then a river. I wanted to mention I'm a second or third hand of this Wendy Alfred knows more and her friend Aaron Donald knows even more she's an expert in the world expert in legal personhood for things like rivers and lakes and ecosystems and so just like a person they now have legal rights after you know after the process these are usually the water resources are connected with indigenous indigenous places where the river literally for tens of thousands of years has been part of the extended family it's a family member it's not a resource that you take advantage of it's you know you live with the river live with the river lives with you so then bringing that into the legal system they've they've been it's been done successfully around the world in a few few places and so the river has a legal right to exist a legal right to flow a legal legal right to be safe from pollution. Legal right to sue your ass if you're impinging on its rights. So maybe that's something that Kevin's watershed could use I'll put. I'll put more links in the gym calls channel on matter most. Thanks Pete. Mr Carmichael. I think of this conversation as being a bit like a pile of pieces for a jigsaw puzzle. All the pieces have their integrity but they don't fit together yet very well. We do not have a shared map of where we are how we got here what can happen and what then should we do. And the lack of a map means we start out on conversations that some of us think are already dead ends with the people who are pursuing them. I think it's the road to Nirvana so I'm going to propose that somehow in the next weeks we think about how to have a more shared map. I palimpsests are sort of maps that got reused or something like that or manuscripts that got reused I'm not sure exactly what they are. But it feels like that's what we need to build together we need to build not one map with one answer but rather a patchwork map of many answers that interact with each other that that work together well. And I don't know if palimpsests is just too wacky a word for it or if it's a bad metaphor but that came to mind immediately. Anyone with last thoughts for this call. Ken please. I have this thought in my head when you asked the question what can we do together. We live in a country with a lot of NIMBY I live in Marin County which is the capital of NIMBY not in my backyard. And I think it'd be really awesome to launch a large scale public conversation on NIMBY. What do I want in my backyard what would I be willing to say yes to take the focus off of all of the you know we don't want this we don't want that and really get start to look at how do we build a culture and a society together that's going to work for the majority of us. So just that's my my closing thought. I love that Ken thank you. A great closing thought. And with that. Let's go figure this thing out. We've been talking a long time but it just feels like we're shaking the parts and putting more parts on the table and shaking them together and they often click together. And that's a really good feeling. So. Thank you all for that. Joe. As we say in the jungle are River dirty. Thanks everybody bye bye. April is giving a speech in Orlando kind of as we speak, and she's going to take a couple days and take her seven year old inner inner child to Disney and Epcot. And she took. I found my t-shirt from the banana ball, which is the party that Disney employees throw every summer 1978. Did I say that out loud. When I was 18 so I found my banana ball t-shirt and she took it along just for good mojo. Don't know if she'll wear it in the park or anything like that but well she's the master of mojo though right so yeah yeah there we go. Thanks everyone. Bye.