 Karibu Sana, this is Hashtag Y in the morning. You're hanging out with me, Brian Sankwar, and in just a bit, I want you to interact with us on social media and let us know where you're watching us from. And also, what are some of your reactions to us, the question you've asked on our social media platform, especially in terms of mattress education? And my previous co-presenter was actually having an incredible discussion about that. What next after KCSE? And this is in regards to the results that were released last year. I definitely would like to see and hear your feedback on that as well. And we will sample it towards the tail end. But right up, it's all matters entrepreneurship. But before we get into it and before I introduce our powerful guests that we have in the studio, we're going to talk about actually how to nurture a successful business. What is the journey that you have to work through before you come out successful? And I have a very interesting and also powerful guest in the studio with us. And this is also touches on matters SMEs and much more. And just an interesting update on this is on MasterCAD on SME confidence. It talks about a sharp increase, Kenya's being optimism. And this again includes a number around 66% of them are confident about the next 12 months compared to 45% of the previous year. And this again is also anticipated with the future growth that will be driven by the investments. But he says 66% of SMEs across Kenya are confident about business growth. 97% believe that omnichannel payments present the biggest opportunity for them followed by digitizing their businesses. And an estimation up to 96%. And this is just incredible. Also companies are also seeking to recover. There's those that have not like fully recovered from the pandemic. And also they're on their way to return to the growth phase. Our research shows that up to 73% of SMEs in Kenya are concerned about the recent rise in cost of doing business, especially in the capital sector. That includes an estimation of 44% cost of living, right? It touches on matters the economy is the economy we are in right now. Socially as we kick starting 2024 really favorable. I'd also like to hear from you and our guest who is live with us in the studio. Also touch on that and much more being joined live by Rosemary Kirimushi is the co-founder and CEO of Rock Mix International. Good morning, Rosemary. Good morning, Zaka. Great to meet you and Karim Boussana. Happy New Year. But I was having an argument with a friend and she was like, Rukeshafika with two January stop telling people happy New Year. No, no, no, no, the year is still new. We must wish each other happiness. And I was like, yeah, he ended up adding much because it's still a fresh new year. It's a new year. It's a new year. We are optimistic. New year comes with new things, new beginnings. Yes. So we are very optimistic. Please. And the learning can be a happy new year. And happy new year to you once again. Happy new year to you. Thank you. Now, let's get into your journey. You've really worked an interesting journey of how you started your business. A business that has been there for over 10 years and two more. This is a decade and another in two. In another three years. And it's an interesting company. Yes. Manufacturing. Manufacturing company. Yes. Talk to us how you started it and where was the vision born? Okay. So growing up, I grew up in a town called Nanuki. My mother was a teacher and a household that never had money. Everybody growing up, money was never enough. So at some point when I finished high school, I thought I need to crack this money business. We need to figure out how to make money. And so I went on a journey on reading and I read very many books. Any book that spoke anything to do with money I read. And I figured entrepreneurship was the way. So at heart, I became an entrepreneur. I wasn't sure what I was going to do. But then I knew at heart I was going to become an entrepreneur. I was going to build a business. I was going to build a big, big business. So after that, I finished high school. I came to University of Nairobi. I did a big home, specialized in marketing, and had a few opportunities here and there. So I've worked in research. I've worked in tourism and travel. I've also worked in the construction industry where I saw the opportunity for paint. So when the opportunity came, I went into it with both hands and started from scratch, like from zero. We started to build something. In an article that's written about you, you are a research assistant for some sort. Also another paint. Is it paint manufacturing or a paint distributor? They were paint distributors. So you volunteered or you were also on payroll? No, no, no, I was working. I was working on payroll. Immediately you got out of UN? Yes. Immediately I got out of UN. I did a few industries here and there. Then I was now a research assistant for this distributorship company as a business development manager. But then... That's a big sport. It was a big position back then. And so... Which year? This was in... We're in 2023? 2024. We're in 2024, yes. So this was about 2012. Yeah, 2012, 2013, sure. Yeah, 2012, end of 2011, because I worked there for about a year. I guess. And I had tried many other ventures. I had tried a few businesses here and there. But then this gave me an opportunity to build something. I was looking for something to build. So I thought paint looked interesting. There was a new product that came into the market back then in the paint industry. The textured external finish known as wall master. Oh, but for someone who doesn't understand that... What does that mean? That means there's a textured product. Your exterior, these days, if you look at most buildings, they are rough. You see, they're rough exterior, yes. It was coming into the market then. It was really new. It was really new. So I sort of an opportunity back then. So we set up, I decided to set up this organization and just start. One customer at a time. So this is towards now the end of 2012. This was towards the end of 2012, yes, into 2013. And how was the journey at that time? What were some of the circumstances that also inspired you or even broke you? And also, actually, one of the biggest key factors is capital when you're starting a business. So did you have savings? Did you borrow a loan? And interesting enough in the article about you is that you advised all business owners in the world and whoever has a dream of owning a business, don't rely on bank loans or any sort of loan. So how was yours back then? So starting back then, during my previous employment, I had some savings in the circle. So I was a circle ground, yes. So I had some savings in the circle. So I had some money to start the business, which basically meant my rent and the first machines to manufacture. But then I was clear that I was going to make money from my customers. So my biggest challenge. You see, if you're running a business and you don't have a customer, you're not in business. You're not in business. If you don't have a buyer who can buy your product, you're not in business at all. That's one of the tip number one. So you have to get your customer first. You have to get your customer. And so when we were starting, I would look for the customer and come to you. You see, as long as a building is being built, I know you will need paint at some point. So I would walk to you and ask for the business. And so for the customers who believed in me back in the day, they would give me an opportunity to, for example, do a sample. So I would sample for them the product. And they would see it. They would like it. We'd do a quotation. Then I'd ask for a deposit. Remember, we were a startup. So I'd ask for a deposit. They would give me a small deposit. We would deliver the product, do the job, and onto the next customer. And onto the next customer and the next customer and the next customer. And that's how it picked up. And that's how it picked up. So all over the city, looking for customers. And by the way, speaking of looking, how are you looking? Were you like approaching individually in churches, in Yosaku? Did you have like a kachama? Definitely, I took out the Kosakoko kachama. I was in a kachama. I know, right? The easiest way to get a customer is to walk to a building, a construction site. I don't need to know you at all. As long as it's a site going on that is being built, I would walk in, ask for the foreman, ask for the architect, ask for the owner, and then pitch my product. So you're doing peaches? So I would pitch, we'd do a sample, and then we'd do a really good job. So the beauty about doing a good job, meant referrals. So if I paint your building and do it really well, then all your friends are my clients. And then you see, paint is not hidden. Everyone can see. If we do a good job, it's a good job. If we do a bad job, it's our job. It's evident, yes. The evidence is... The client can just see it. The client can see. Yes, and people have very many opinions, especially when you're painting. People who are yellow, like they're very opinionated. Especially Kenyans. It's a Kenyan thing. It's a Kenyan thing. And I think that's also the beauty of having a business that's strategic, like this is my target customer, and I'm aware that I can go beyond this, or below this, or above this. That's interesting. Now, speaking of money in a circle. Speaking of money from the circle, so I got money from the circle, and so I started doing business. So one of the biggest challenges we had back then was raw materials. And because you need the raw material to produce before you can sell, I needed capital. And that's when I went to one of the local banks. And they asked me for a title, and I thought, where? These are business titles? Yes, I titled it for land. You need land. For security. Yes, for security. Oh my goodness. Back then, right now, business, whether the environment for doing business right now is way better than back in the day. Okay. Yes. I have a lot on the economy. A lot on the economy, but at least these days banks can give you unsecured facilities. Like such facilities now exist. Yeah. Back in 2012, there was nothing like unsecured facility. For who? If you don't have a pay slip. Yeah. It didn't matter how good you were in terms of money management. Right. Yes. And you managed to pull through that? So I managed to pull through that. It was very, very hard. But in 20, I think 15 or 16 roundabout there, I was auctioned. Wow. Please tell us. You know, when somebody hears of auctioning, it's actually a scary thing. For those that have been through it, it's a lot of trauma. You're scared, it's uncertain. In short, it's even like, it's disaster happening to you because you're bound to lose your property, your assets, and your money sometimes. So what happened around that? So when I was being auctioned, I, money management, just cash flow management. I wasn't too good at it. I was still young and I still wanted to have a good life and build a business and have fun and build a business. So I wasn't too good in terms of cash flow. Okay. And so, yeah, it caught up with me. My decisions caught up with me and I was auctioned. But this is what I see. For business people, being auctioned is a rite of passage. Yeah, it's part of the experience in the journey. It's a rite of passage because after that, then you move away from the, what you imagine business is, to doing real business. That delusion, man, to like, it's a good bubble, everything is gonna flow right. And then all of a sudden, it busts your bubble. Yes, you drive up four by four and live in the postious part of town and... Oh my goodness. That bubble is bust. It's just a fantasy. It's bust. And you're allowed to be sad for a few days. Then you wake up. Depression and kicking one on. You wake up, you dust yourself, and you start again. This time, you build with fundamentals. And strategy. And strategy. So speaking of strategy, how did you manage to climb up? Because I can only imagine, here you're experiencing being auctioned. And also, maybe if you can also point out, maybe what are some of the properties that were taken away from you? And how long did you take in that season before you started building up again? One of the things that was taken away from me that was very critical was my car. So my car went. Now, doing sales for paint in Nairobi without a car, you've been grounded, literally. Yes, you've been grounded. You cannot sell. Neither can you deliver. Neither can you buy. Because now, all this now means you have to hire. And it becomes very, very expensive. Yes. So my office, what I had in my office furniture, they were taken, my computers, what, what, what not, in my car. And how many people were you working with at that time? At that time, I think I had two employees. We were very small. Not as big now. Not as big as we are right now. We were small. So I had two employees. One of them left. The other one stuck with me. Bad times. They say hard times. Show you who the real ones are. They show you who the real people are. And in business, it's like a real deal now. So from there, I became, my team and I became extremely disciplined, yes, in terms of cash flow management. And we've grown from retained earnings. So you make money and that profit is what you pull back into the business. And you pull it back into the business and pull it back into the business. The challenge we're having right now is we are looking to scale. And so although now the business is completely stable, it can hold itself, we are looking to scale. We are looking to expand into new markets. And so that's where we're at at this point of the journey. And that's an interesting lesson as well to any business owner. And for you, you know, being there for 10 years and now two more on top, it means you're an expert in that industry as well. And I can't wait for you to be featured on Forbes. I know that's also part of your dream. But let's get back to cash flow. It's a very key component for any entrepreneur journey. And I leave a lot of mentioned stories, SMEs, small, medium enterprises, how to on on the show, we come up, a kuzanyanya, kuzantumbagi, quotient, what not. Managing your cash flow is really a key important skill. Which I feel like maybe a lot of people do not understand that. Maybe sometimes, maybe for a person who started a journey of entrepreneurship, you learn on the job, it's a job you learn on the job. But then I feel like this lesson's about money. It should be even introduced to younger kids in school. Like as early as when I say mama, mama, the first thing is you have to teach children on how to manage money. Cash flow is king. Cash flow is king. And the thing about business is you have to understand. Yes. Money from the business does not belong to you. It's not your money. It's not your money. You have to separate. You have to separate. This is money for the business. And pay yourself a salary. Get the discipline of paying yourself. So sometimes it means you can get caught up in investment and don't even reward yourself in the business. Yes, if you get caught up in it. And the thing is you have to sacrifice. By the time you're in business 10 years, you have to have a lot of sacrifices. There are things you want, but you can't afford. You have to be clear. By the way, you broke. The business is rich, yes. But you as an entrepreneur, you don't have any money. So please don't buy property. Because if you go to buy, say something like land, what have you done, you've tied up your cash flow. You've tied up your cash flow. So what happened during COVID is we saw serious price fluctuation. Price fluctuation and raw material shortage. So what would happen is the quality of raw material that we like to use was not as easily available. And then price fluctuation and then the dollar went up and then the war in Russia. Right now, actually, I'm being told there's going to be another challenge because there are militants attacking cargo ships on the Red Sea. These ships are headed to Kenya, Africa? Yes, coming to Africa. I was given this information yesterday. So we are being told by our suppliers, what can you lock up? Like this is the stock we have, what can you pick up? So such challenges, if you haven't managed your cash flow well, then you're caught flat-footed. And I remember also when the president even mentioned that this war has massively affected entrepreneurs. A lot of people were like, how? But this is Kenya. But now I see the reason why. Yes, because we are net importers. We import almost everything. So because we import, anytime there's the international markets, the world now has become a single market. So if something goes, if there's war, that means there's shortage, say in China or shortage, say where we bring our stuff from Europe. Then that means the prices have gone up. So if the price of my raw material goes up, the price of my paint goes up, the cost of construction goes up, so you who's paying rent, your rent has gone up. Yes, so the cost of living is not an arbitrary thing. You can follow it up. If you're interested in learning, you can follow it up. Or this is why it went up, this is why it went up. And this is why now you're being affected. You are the person who's paying rent. Or you are the person who is building your own home. Your initial costs, if you service your final cost have is fluctuating because of international, because of factors that are really beyond your control. Yeah, and it's really incredible you have this awareness because I can only margin now to the normal manaichi who is not aware of such an experience at your heart. You know, you're sitting in the deeper end where you're able to oversee and view all this. As it's happening, as the statistics are coming, you're even noting and even experiencing it as well, which is really an excellent lesson for everyone or anyone who's watching right now. Yes, so as an entrepreneur, you really have to understand your industry. And you also have to understand the macroeconomics and also the microeconomics. You have to understand interest rates have gone up because the base rate at Central Bank went up. So interest rates have gone up. I was actually saying an update about a shielding up. I think I'll point it out later. They updated it this morning. I think it was on business daily. About a shielding, has it dropped or is it going up? No, it's gone up. It's gone up, right? I think we're at 157 now. Yes, I saw it early on in the morning. Wow, meaning that things are about to also get a little bit mucky. Things are going to get mucky. However, when you're an entrepreneur, you have to figure it out. So what happens is you cut your margins because you don't want also to push all your costs to your customers. You also have to remain competitive. Yeah, sure, absolutely. You have to remain competitive, watch your margins and see how you can cushion your customer. The other thing that we've done also is we've moved into new markets. So we've recently just moved into Uganda. Right, which is like an extension. And that's growth. Now that's growth for us. So what I was telling you before we started was last year when everyone was complaining, we actually grew. Right. We actually grew. And you see, as much as people talk about the economy and the naysayers like I would like to call them, we have to keep going on because this country belongs to us. This country belongs to us. The businesses are ours. We have to keep going. We have to keep going. So that means maybe we work a little harder, change strategy, look at other markets. But we have to keep innovating. We have to keep innovating. It's really incredible because you know, you're speaking with our mindset of an expert. You know, I can only imagine for a person like you said and they say it was just an ask a tour, economic or up and they say, you know, the president, the president, but it's really incredible. Now, still on that update about the shilling, I've actually found it. It says last month, the central bank of Kenya surprised the market as it unexpectedly raised interest rates by 200 basis points. That is 2%. Lifting the central bank rate to 12.5% from 10.5%. And in its decision, the CBK Monetary Policy Committee noted that the exchange rate depreciation had continued to exert pressure on domestic prices. Yes, so that means domestic borrowing is going to become expensive. Yeah, for internally here, for us. For internally here, for business people, you see now we've grown, so now the banks give us money. Now when you grow, you don't have a problem raising money. So now two things, either you renegotiate your facility and sit with your banker and say, it was going to pay these loans in three years, can I pay it in three and a half years? So it doesn't quite affect you. And also when you make some money, you can push some of it into repaying of the facility to just manage that cost. And also you watch out, you watch out on some of the things that you wanted to do in terms of expansion. If you want to go maybe into capital, you want to build, like now we want to build our own warehouse and stuff like that. Is it worth building now or do we wait a little bit? The other option would be also to bring in international investors. So we are also raising money from international investors. We are hoping that this is the year that's, because there's international investors who are looking to invest here. And how are you reaching out to them, brother? Because I believe you must have some sort of a resume because I can't just start a mid-tomba business right now and expect to reach out to you. You need track record, you need track record, right? You need to show this is where we started and this is where we are. And for what period? And for what period? They look at maybe three or four years of your doing business. They look at your growth level, they look at the impact you're having in the society in terms of the number of jobs you're creating. Right. Those are some of the things they look at. Right. But they're also very interested because you see the government is doing affordable housing. You know Naim, Django is coming up. Yes. It's a huge opportunity. But how do you feel about it? Now that you've said it's a huge opportunity because it has received a lot of opposition. It has received a lot of opposition. Because of the housing levy tax? Because of the housing levy tax. But you see the shortage of houses in Kenya is really high and we have to house our people. We really do have to house our people. So we are excited. There are some that are already up and I'm copying. There's one in Riru. There's one in Riru coming up. It should be completing anytime soon. If you go to site, the construction has really come up. The president launched it I think last year, the beginning of last year at some point. So we're really looking forward to it. Our only challenge is that paint is the last thing that they develop. Like the final product. It's the final product. So we have to wait but also prepare because affordable housing is here with us. So a lot of opportunity for local manufacturers. A lot of opportunity for our young people. So because they're going to get jobs. And also opportunity for people who are employed to get houses. Yeah. Yes. I know at this point it might not look like it's a good thing but they'll thank him maybe after five years. So maybe after he has left presidency. Because the amount of opposition that that project has received is really insurmountable. But infrastructure development is always a good thing. Do you remember Thika Road? When Kibaki was building Thika Road and he took down there was a Nakumat. There was the Nakumat that went down. And guys were up in arms. But today look at Thika Road. It opened up that highway completely. So when the infrastructure is going on, people might not appreciate it. But believe you me for a country like ours that is developing infrastructure is key. We must house our people. We must feed our people. We must close our people. Once we've done the basics, then we can move to other things like entertainment. Things like that. But housing is key. It's very key. Food is key. Especially in urban areas. Especially even in rural areas. You know when it's raining you can't be outside. You must be under shelter. Yes. Form stability for the home. Yes. That's incredible. Now also still on the ecosystem. That is the climate of where you operate. Maybe what are some of the conducive factors that have actually propelled you in terms of now. Because I believe politics, the state of politics of a country has a massive effect on the nature of operations of any business. In terms of also seeing the products of profit. Also networking in between and expansion. So maybe in Kenya right now, from your experience and where you sit, what are some of the favorable conditions that maybe people are blind to, but you're able to see. But we're able to see. One of them is we have an association called the Kenya Association of Manufacturers. I'm sure you've heard about it. So that as an association in the National Chamber of Commerce, they help business people lobby. You're an umbrella organization. I'm a member of the Kenya Association of Manufacturers which is an umbrella organization that helps local manufacturers lobby. But also, a business environment, as much as the economy is a bit difficult right now, the business environment is not as bad as we want to think. Really? If you wake up tomorrow and look for a customer to sell anything, it will be bought. It will be bought. It's just that we really have to be a bit more positive. And that's why it's beautiful when it's a new year. That's why we have to enjoy the new year. We are like week two. We are week two. We have to look at the year with as much positivity that we can bring to the table. Because there's a lot of investment coming into the country, foreign direct investment coming into the country. And all these people are coming into the infrastructure industry. So there's a lot of buildings coming up. And there are lots and lots of opportunities. If you open your eyes, opportunities are endless. Right. Yes. So I don't know, last year's election, did you have a smooth run? Or during the election? Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. You see? Actually, it's last year but one, you know? Last year but one. So two main things that have happened during COVID and also during elections. What happens is for many Kenyans, because of the uncertainty, they build more. You see, if you are thinking of building your own home and you're not sure when, when there's uncertain times, then you quicken the process. Yes, so you quicken the process. So as much as there are not as many opportunities, say in the luxury end of the product, for a product like paint, there's an opportunity. There's an opportunity. So we haven't seen, we were really not affected as much. Not as much. Yes. And if you look at the major businesses, they were really not affected. Okay. No, they were not. Right. So as Kenyans, we have to become real entrepreneurs. We have to build. Because you see when you're building something, even though something comes for say one or two, three months, it might affect you and your business might slow down. However, you're building, you've been building for the last 12 years. And I'm hoping that this business will go and be taken over by my children and their children and their children's children. So we are building. As long as you're building, you have fundamentals that keep you going, as opposed to if you're trading. Trading, you know, is buying and selling. So you buy and sell, you buy and sell. But if you're not building anything, then it becomes a huge challenge when it's a downfall. Say an election or COVID or there's war. So I encourage entrepreneurs to build businesses that can stand the chest of time. Right. Maybe interesting. Are there also maybe obstacles you've met? Because 10, 12 years in total is really a huge amount of time. Maybe what are some of the obstacles you've had to overcome in that industry? Before you tell us about your competitors. And at some point we had mentioned the Mutokinju, which is like, I saw recently, they were highlighted in the business something. They won an award as well. Mutokinju is one of these, is cementing itself as a distributor, as a main distributor for paint. Right. Yeah, so. At large in Kenya. At large in Kenya. Okay. I don't know whether they've gone elsewhere. I don't know. But our competitors really are not Mutokinju. We compete with the manufacturers. We compete with crown paints, and basketball paints, and plus corn. So that's what we call SIDA competitors. Right. So when you look in this room, are you able to tell which company might have done this painting? No, you can't tell. Okay. Right. But you see, so the market is huge. Right. There is always a niche market for you. And you see for us what we've done is we are taking the headache off the customer. Right. How do we take headache off? When you think of painting, you're thinking of looking for a fundy. The fundy comes, gives you a quote, then you have to go to the hardware, buy paint, then come it's painted. You don't like it, you don't like the color. So what do we do as rock mix? If you call on us, we will send a team that will come to you. Okay. They'll give you a quote, we're able to give you a quote. We're even able to sample the colors because you're not sure, say for example you're looking at, say maybe a brown, you're not sure of the brown that you want. Right. So we'll give you several options. Right. Like a shed. Like a shed card. And it's actually on the wall. So you can see exactly how your wall will look like when you're done painting. And then we come in, we have our own interim in-house team of painters, plus our paint. And then also we give you a warranty. Did they tell you that? No. You haven't mentioned. Wow, that's incredible because even buying a phone at a shop, there's phones that don't even offer a warranty. There are phones that don't offer a warranty. Right? Neville, peace to see you. Find a way, but you give a warranty. We give a warranty especially for external. You see external because we are in the equator under the tropical sun. They spent you painted in two weeks, you're not sure that color is what you wanted. So we give warranty of up to 10 years. And that is even including people like if you had a client from TZ or Uganda. We give warranties across. We are very, very confident in our product. Okay. So that's how we beat the big brands. Okay, really interesting. I'm told we have five minutes and then we go. Time really flies so fast. Maybe so also what are some of the lessons and then maybe for someone who's watching right now and they want to get into this journey of building this incredible business idea. Maybe they have a vision, but of course the basics of starting a business first of all have a business plan. And you've literally shown us your journey and whatnot. You need a customer. You need a customer. By the way you had mentioned that you need a customer first. Please explain it to them. You need your camera. This is my camera. So when you're starting a business one of the most important things is a customer who will pay you for your product or service. Once you have that customer the second thing is to expand the customer base. So multiply the number of customers that you have and also retain the customer that you have. That means you have to give a product that is excellent quality or a service that is of good quality so that you retain your customer. Once you have your customer the fundamentals of running a business are the same. You have to manage your cash flows. You have to manage your systems and then growth and consistency. I can't emphasize that enough. You have to be consistent. You have to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Like getting used to routine is really a difficult thing. It's difficult but it's very important because what I say is you pay time. Once you pay time, success is inevitable. When we were in the midst of building this business it was very, very difficult. Like there are days I used to wonder, hey, but now if you called me I can come. I'll come and sit here. I'm having an interview with you. The factory is running. Sales people are selling. Paint is being painted. Like there's a whole operation happening behind me but it's taken doing the same thing over and over and over again. And after you pay what I call you pay time, that success is inevitable. And maybe the legalities, I believe you've been through this a lot and now with the nature of our political system. Are there maybe at some point where things were so uncertain, especially now for, because yours is a registered business, right? Yes, we are registered. So how did you get a part of the documentation which is a very key part as well for any entrepreneur, especially SIE? Yes, yes, yes. How did you go through that process? So documentation, what you need in terms of documentation is registration. So what used to happen back then, registration of companies even right now is not as difficult. All you need is a lawyer and a legitimate lawyer who will register for you, your organization. But also now for people like us, we are registered with carers, so we pay our taxes. We are registered with cabs. We have our, what's that called? The diamond mark of quality. But by the time you get, start. Let's not talk about a lot of, when you're starting, really the documentation will catch up. Right. Start and then let the documentation catch up. Catch up. Catch up on things like NSSF, NHIF, all these people. So at some point, by the time you grow to a certain level, you will have to have your house in order. Right. But when you're starting, my advice would be, just start the business and then let the documentation catch on. By the end of your first year in business, you will have put a documentation together. Because sometimes they, I call it analysis paralysis. So your fear of starting, you're so afraid. You're afraid of things that maybe don't even bother you. That's a mystic, because maybe you've heard of stories. Because people hear, oh, I started this business and then something happened. I can't start such a similar one. So for small businesses in this country, like if you're operating below five million, there are things you're not required to pay. Or there are documents that you're not required to have. Because you're still considered small. At the point you hit five million annual turnover, then now you need to have your documentation in order. But don't have analysis paralysis. Start the business. And as you start, because it's not like every day you'll go look for the customer, one day look for a day off and put a documentation together. Right. Yes. I have two questions, just very fast. Hopefully they won't copy off. Loans, servicing debt, which is also a very key part in any business. There's those business that solely depend on borrowing from a financial institution to another, maybe a bank. In an article that was written about you, advice entrepreneurs to never rely on borrowed money from banks. Why is that? When you're starting, do not rely on loans because nobody will give you. Okay. When you're starting the business, don't rely on loans because nobody will give you. And those who give you, the interest rate will be very high because you're considered high risk. Right. So raise your money from customers. But it's a level where you reach, then I, when the banks will lend to you. Completely unsecured. Yes. Because then you have something physical to show. Yes, then you have something physical to show and you have track record. If you bank with one bank, like right now, you pick up a local bank, say, for example, KCB, and you bank with them consistently. Consistently for maybe 12 months where all your money is going in, all your money is going out. Then you can, for actually, for Kenya commercial bank, let me talk about Kenya commercial bank for a minute. I don't, I'm not endorsing them. I know these days are endorsements. But they have a female-led enterprise fund that is unsecured. Actually, it's an advert on another main institution. It's legit, yes. They give you unsecured facility, especially for women in business. If you've banked with them for a certain period of time, and they can see, because it's their statement, they can see how you've been banking with them and you need a certain amount of money, they're able to give it to you completely unsecured. I wish this information was even reachable to the people in the interior to know about female-led, you know, what not, because this is like an empowerment forum that actually nudges women into business. Lastly, before you tell us what people can find you and access you, maybe what is one lesson that you've learnt in business for 12 good years that you can pass it on now that it's just a new year? And also, are you friends with Anetwange Madame Keroche from Keroche Breweries? But I really admire her. I admire her. I think she's a woman of steel. I really admire her. You've met her? No, I haven't met her. I've not had the privilege of meeting her, but I'm hoping that one day I'll meet her. Yes, I think she's an amazing woman. There's Madame Keroche, and there's also someone else. There's also another lady, the Decra Roofing Lady who has set up a factory in Georgia. I've also not met her, but... She's one of the biggest. They're some of the biggest. Yes, women doing business, doing big things in this country. I think she'll feature on the strength of a woman here because it's not easy to find, like, the zillion to women that have such a huge track record in business. Or have one lesson and then where people can access you, this is your camera. Consistency. Do the same thing over and over and over again. You can find us on our social media pages. We are on Instagram, at Rockmix International. We are on Facebook, at Rockmix International. We are on YouTube. We are on TikTok, and also physically, we are in Riru. If you just Google Rockmix International, you'll find our number. Give us a call. Reach out to us and we'll come to you. Yeah. I'm going to say my Google. Had a Piana number and an email, it shows something. Just Google Rockmix. You'll find us. We'll find us. Before we actually go, let me just sample one comment. And I'll say my comment says, this was in regarding to a question we asked on our social media. It was regarding, actually, business, yeah, 1,000. I'll say my comment says, I'm going to ask you to come to my eyes. Which is a good idea. Which is a really good idea. At least you're selling something. Still something. Start with anything. But if you want to go to your eyes, have a vision to grow. Go to your eyes, keep growing, grow a farm, even export the eggs. Right. Yes. Anything that you start, you can start small, but you're not allowed to remain small. All right. Thank you so much, Ms. Rosemary Kirimi. By the way, she has employed 30 people and permanent. Yes, we have 30 members of staff. Yeah. Meaning that any day, you know, the universe. You should be there sometime. I will. I promise I will. Rosemary Kirimi, she's the CEO and also a founder, co-founder of Rockmix International. An incredible company. And thank you so much for sharing with us your skills. Thank you. And I trust 24 and 4 is going to be an amazing year for business owners. Yes. We are looking forward to a really, really amazing year. Right. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. So we call it a day right here on Entrepreneurship Tuesday. And be rest assured. We'll see you next time right here. Advocate yourself for the channel. Personally, at Bronsack 101. Will you be able to do it? Rockmix International. All right, at Rockmix International. Thank you so much. Thank you.