 Welcome to NewsClick, we have with us Josie Joseph who is fighting the biggest defamation case till date as an individual. It is a case of 1000 crores launched by the Jet Airways Company and Mr. Nareesh Goyal. Welcome to NewsClick. It's a privilege to have you with us and before that I had read your book. It's a wonderful book and everybody should look at this book because if you want to know how India is operating presently how everything that you see outside are not what it seems. If you look at this book you would know how the deals are done behind the veil of democracy that we all believe the democracy is what is running our nation but if you know it is the politicians and the business oligarchy that runs the country. What is the status of the case because people are watching closely there are many individuals who have been maintained if you can see but you have a standing guard and everybody is looking up to you so what is the status of the case so that people can get strength from you and how you are fighting this case. So there are two cases, one is filed against Outlook magazine and me because Outlook magazine and its editors had carried an extract of a chapter on Nareesh Goyal and Jet Airways and there are links to Underworld. The other case is against the publisher my book publisher Harper Collins and me. In the case of the Outlook and me the case against Outlook and me I am we are in the process of filing our response and we will be filing it next week and we have prepared a very strong and aggressive response where is there is not an eye out of regret nor doubt about what we have said or what we are going to say. In fact ever since the court case started I have also been getting a lot of busy lawyers calling out to me reaching out to me with more information on Jet Airways and their criminal links especially of Nareesh Goyal the promoter. So we are actually going to be presenting a lot of additional documents and we hope it triggers a closer scrutiny of the kind of business that is being done in this country by many of the corporates. In the second case we I am coordinating with very well with my publishers they are also standing by me as you know Harper Collins is part of the Rupert Murdoch Empire. So they are also coordinating I am coordinating with their lawyers in London in Bombay in Delhi etc. We are in the process of filing the response and it takes time it involves some money but there are also a lot of good people out there for example Prasan Bhushan has pro bono vetted my filings in from Delhi and in Mumbai Mikhir Deshai who is one of our finest public interest lawyers in Mumbai at the Bombay High Court he is fighting my case. Look you know all court cases are cumbersome it takes a lot of time energy drains you but I think and that is their intention it is not that they very well know that nobody is going to pay them a thousand crores even if they win the case but the game is to wear you out to ensure that your words do not reach as many people as possible to to use the court case as a cover for furthering their business interest. So while I understand the limitations of Indian judiciary and the court time it takes we would be fighting the case aggressively on the front foot and I hope I would have the same level of energy and commitment to the case as it drags on for years which is usually the case. So in your career as a journalist you have broken very important cases be it the other shappartment scam or even the naval war room leak case and also the Commonwealth games so how was it every time you broke a story it was in national news and even the 2g scam so you were able to shake the might of the country so how. So I think you know what George Orwell I think is famously said that journalism is printing what others don't want it to print so everything else is public relations and which is true much I mean it's a bigger truth today than ever so I believe in it and second thing is I think as journalists we are supposed to be adversarial towards all powers that be whether it's a government or corporates or whoever if that is a case then all of us should be writing things that are critical of the establishments and corporate houses and political parties and political establishments. So maybe I was lucky maybe I am persistent maybe I keep moving from story to story I don't know what it is but over the last 20 to 25 years that many stories that I have done. I think but if you ask me what is that one thing common about all these stories there are few things one is that I think I believe and it should be so that journalists should believe in the fact that we are not the story we are only the flies on the world who are just reporting the story so once I report a story then I move on to the next story most a lot of journalists make the mistake of reporting the story and then they talk about and become the heroes of the story and they become the story and then they are lost in it for a lifetime for years I do not I try to avoid that that's one thing second thing is I approach stories in a in an academic fashion I think I'm doing academic research so I have to be as sound proof as possible so as so if I'm able to present a very academically sound evidence it's very difficult to refute it third thing is that when you do any of these things you are taking on powerful and mighty people and obviously there are adverse reactions to it so because of that I think the third and the most crucial part of the game is how to play down your fear it's not that I don't have fears you know I also have my fears but so it's it's it's it's all a combination of all these factors that I think helps me or journalists like me to keep doing stories and keep moving forward in your piece you had become very philosophical you when you talk about the interest between the opposition and the ruling parties you say that there when it comes to sharing the pie there's no difference I quote when it comes to sharing the pie or claiming a piece of it there are no political divisions why did you feel that because at least in the people see that the opposition members and the ruling parties are always at war with each other so if you look at my book what what is it that I've tried to do I've tried to explain the reality of Indian democracy that the average reader wouldn't know the stories of the capital city and beyond which while some of us would know wouldn't even report report which usually are consumed in the gossip parties of in the manicured loans so I wanted to tell the story of the real story of Indian democracy without any warning right so if that is a aim then I have to go beyond what is obvious on television screen or on newspapers and that is where I'm trying to say that there is a tacit understanding between all kinds of politicians politics to the extent that there is an equilibrium that they've created in that equilibrium they will together run the cricket control board of India because that's a rich board I mean if their political rivalries were real how could Rajiv Shukla and Anurag Thakur and everybody sit together and decide the fate of Indian cricket and Narendra Modi and I'm sure they are all cricket administrators I mean I used to be a cricket player for a long time in my life you know I when I look at some of these tabs I don't even know whether they can bend to hold a bat or to ball a good ball you know but it's embarrassing and it's also a telling story of our times that they all come together and there is a grand conspiracy of silence amongst them when it's coming to sharing the pie for example one fundamental question that every Indian politician should be answering and should be making clear is how are they funding their politics how did Mr. Modi put up so many holograms all over the country how did he fly around in chartered aircraft how did his party fly around in a cooperative was it with that just 740 crore rupees that he declared as BJP's expense in 2014 no my dear it's not did the congress run its 2014 campaign with a few hundred crore rupees no the market estimates were that about 20,000 crore rupees was spent in 2014 elections so where is the rest of the money coming where is it going who is spending it so the the underground of Indian politics they all want to cover up and that underground of politics is being its coffers are being filled by the black money from corporates and other vested interests arms dealers and what not so there is a grand conspiracy beyond it it will the day you break open that grand conspiracy the day we crack that the day we forced our politicians to shed their dubious lifestyles and shed their dubious political positions we will have a mature liberal democracy in that sense you talked about the armed forces you had also mentioned in the book that there is a clear link how when the foreign arms dealer arms dealers are coming for their business there is always the foreign diplomats engage the industrialists to help in the defense deals can you throw some light how so that is in the section about intermediaries I've spoken in detail about several kinds of intermediaries so one of the most influential intermediaries are the ones who can get you the big billion dollar deal from the government of India so I focus mostly on the arms dealers because that's one area where I've really worked on for years you know I don't think many Indians are even aware that a one-eyed man living in a mansion in London controls world's arms industry to a great extent and he's an Indian without his blessings most deals in India won't go through he also owns some of the world's biggest collection of paintings he owns the Maffuzane and anti-war hold and all that now people like that whether they're little known or whether they're famous businessman they're all they all become intermediaries for big defense companies to swing their deals so if you look at the present dispossession you can see that dispensation sorry the Modi government it's it's it has its own favorite interstellar who without any business background how come they come to play such important role in Indian business sector these are high-end technological sectors you think you think how do you explain a business house getting to play a crucial role in manufacturing fighters and tanks when they have never in their life manufactured anything like that so there is something beyond what it what is obvious and that is the obvious thing beyond the obvious is what I was trying to search and and I have I didn't want the book to be gossipy so I only recorded what is on in documents so that's why limited to that but what I know and what the market knows and what the people who matter knows is that some of our biggest interstellar are actually mere middlemen they make their big money either fixing contracts for you they're fixing big contracts in government and and collecting the kickbacks and distributing the kickbacks to the parties and the politicians and their families and and moving the money around that is what some of our big interstellar are doing nothing more currently you are the national security editor at the Hindu so you would know with this and the war industry is always looking for trouble areas so do you think with the private sector where that main aim is to see profits do you think there can be some internal disturbances or we are always at war ready country or how do you see any of that sort happening no I mean there are two three things to be discussed to look at here what do you say number one is that are we going to create a military industrial complex that is powerful enough to create disturbances and artificial conflicts right now we don't have it but we could be susceptible to it so we need to be very very careful and we need to watch out for to ensure that our democratic institutions the parliament the security establishments are so honest and with so much integrity that they can be check on the private military industrial complex that will emerge ultimately are our government institutions powerful enough and independent enough today no if we let if a private military industrial complex rise today our security establishment and our parliamentary mode of governance is not good enough today we have very serious governance crisis so we need to work on strengthening them can these people create conflicts of course they could and they will because for them it's business pure effort so if you look at I don't know if you have been following the the entire scandal around Rolls Royce company which makes the aircraft engines and ship engines and all that it turned out that the one night Sudhir Chaudhary that I speak about in my book he was his agent in both China and India so India China conflict brings him more money and brings more money to Rolls Royce so it's it's a very it's not rocket science but how do you balance it out is by strengthening our security establishments by strengthening parliamentary accountability which we do not have today you have a security establishment especially the intelligence agencies which are almost recklessly let loose they need to be accountable now coming back to the most important thing as a journalist you have been like a soldier your training in the army has helped you stay firm and focused in your fight against the corporates so what is your I mean advice to the budding journalists who look up to you as a role model there are a few things of life skills that I think anybody not just journalists any professional who's entering life should have most important is to to come to terms with money you know if you are going to be chasing money for a lifetime then you will end up compromising yourself at every stage so it is about deciding okay is it shut enough for you or you want more expensive shirt and shoes or are you happy with it or are you and your family happy with living in a DD apartment in the edge of the city and are you happy driving your car for an hour and a half one way or do you want to be in the center of the city so those things make a lot of impact on what your values are once you are clear and your relations with money is settled then a lot of things will fall into place that is one thing the second thing is is journalism especially and and most professions do not approach them with the presuming that glamour of what you see in films or books is what it is no it is a very boring tedious job so beyond the books beyond what you hear about me is I spent days hours months sometimes looking at documents and find nothing right there are moments when people humiliate you but you have to just solo that and move on that second thing the third thing is that to me the more tricky part is not the threats to life for you know intimidations or legal cases the more dangerous part to me is how do you equip yourself to resist temptations so you know when you come from a family middle class family and when you're living in my kind of conditions how do you say no to a 10 crore rupee offer to be quiet and most of the time money or other gifts are being offered for your silence nobody will even know so even your life partner wouldn't know that you have taken money from somebody or bride from somebody how do you ensure that your morality is protected in that very lonely moments so I think both excellence and morality are very very very lonely pursuits there is nobody else with you in these games so if you want to write a book you'll have to get up in the morning write every morning you can't call a crowd of friends and sit and write similarly about values if all that is settled then I think it's fun because look you should look at the the sunshine not not at the shadows so watch out nationalist here we have a journalist who is saying commitment and ethics are important and that is what is required even for you nationalist who just go by the mere popular tv channels that have the backing of the rolling establishment but it is important that you see between the words and look for people who are honest and for the service of the nation thank you sir thank you