 Good day, my lovely listeners. You are listening to the Forty Auty podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive head first into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalising tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Hello, listeners. You are listening to the Forty Auty podcast. My name is Thomas Henley from the Asperdus Growth YouTube channel and I just want to say how are you doing today? Today we've got something a little bit different than usual. We're going to talk about a subject that's a little bit different, something that I don't think's talked about a lot and that is autism and creativity. Yes, anything from making media type things, to drawing, to painting, to making music, all that good stuff. Why is it that we have so many autistic people who are good at creative things when it seems to go against the grain? Well, today I am joined by Ina from Super Spectrum Girl. Ina, say hi. Hi guys. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. And where are you joining us from? I am from Switzerland. So it's pretty much the central part where there's a lot of cows and people speak German. They speak German? Yeah, I speak Swiss German. Ah, so is German similar to Swiss German? I've never heard of that. I thought it would just be Swiss. Yeah. It is kind of like a dialect. It sounds totally different. That German it's a lot more harsh and has a lot of like, and it's, where as a German is a lot more softer when you hear it. Really? Mm-hmm. Oh well. Okay, well, I've learnt something new already. What we, yeah, we're going to be talking about creativity today. Do you want to give everyone a little bit of an introduction to yourself just to get things going? Sure. So I am from Switzerland. I'm 30 years old. I was diagnosed like three years ago and I do illustrations on interwebs. So I have an Instagram account called Super Spectrum Girl where I'm trying to post on a regular basis about what it's like to be on a spectrum as a female. And what, you know, how did you come across like this kind of work? What got you into it in the first place? So you mean like, why I got on the internet with the illustrations or just… Yeah, why have you made illustrations and why is it centred around autism? So when I originally was doing some research about, you know, the spectrum and what it's like to be diagnosed as a female, I was working with some kids, two girls, and I was doing the research to be more informed about how to interact with them and how to really make sure that their needs are met in my work. And then I realized, you know, during that research that there were a lot of similarities between the things I was reading and also my life. And so I just wanted to create something that shows, you know, what it is like to be artistic but also female and how, you know, you cope with daily life being on the spectrum but also being like female. And I really wanted to talk to others and how, you know, learn about how other individuals are experiencing this like crazy thing called autism. And so I, since I really love, you know, illustrating also cartoons, I just like thought, hey, I'm going to post something on Instagram and then it kind of was growing slowly. People were talking to me and I really enjoyed the interactions with everyone. So I kept on illustrating and posting, yeah. So when were you diagnosed with, I'm guessing, Asperger's at the time? Or is it sort of an autism spectrum disorder? It was pretty much, you know, the same because in Switzerland, everything is kind of slower than the rest of the world. So I got diagnosed like three years ago at the age of 27. Welcome to the team. Thank you. We're glad to be part of the team. And yeah, I was talking to a psychiatrist and a team of specialists and then they told me like that, you know, pretty much have Asperger's but they don't call it that way anymore. So I got diagnosed being like a high functioning autistic person. But yeah, I use the terms pretty much, you know, the same. So but I guess people are talking more about the spectrum than Asperger's anymore. Yeah, I do remember that when, so the diagnostic manual five, I think was the introduction of ASD into the psych business, if you can say like that. And they got rid of autism classifications and got rid of Asperger's and PDD, NASS and all of those types of things. They seem to come together into levels. And I think they use those levels to figure out what kind of support they need, which I think I'm still not sure how I feel about it because maybe in medical ways that makes sense, but we already have like an idea of what Asperger's is and what autism is. Obviously, there are, you know, cases where the lines are a bit blurred, but I think having those terms differentiated are quite important to some degree. But I know a lot of people don't agree. And a lot of people find these functioning, I think they call it functioning labels difficult or problematic, but I'm not too sure about it. Yeah, same here. I guess it's really worth talking about it, especially hearing from autistic individuals, like how they feel about it. Because, you know, usually we get a label that isn't made from someone on the spectrum, and I wouldn't call myself like high functioning because it really like takes away all the other other struggles that we have. And I'm not just functioning in a society and living being with not, you know, a disorder, but more of like a condition, which is just part of me and who I am. So I like pushes the high functioning label sort of pushes aside any, any sort of struggles that you have into most people. Well, I guess so. I mean, it doesn't really show, you know, like the whole picture, what it's like to be autistic and on the spectrum. Cool. So let's let's talk a little bit about your creative arts. What is your relationship with it? How did you start? How did you get better? And why? Why did you start doing it? Did I get better? I, I really have no idea. So I guess it's just, you know, an outlet for me. It really helps me to recharge and just shut off the mind and just be present in the moment. And I've always been, you know, this weird little awkward kid with the big glasses drawing somewhere in the corner. And it has always been a part of my life drawing. You sounded like a cool kid. Oh, I really wasn't the cool kid. But yeah, so I always found, you know, this safe space in art. And when I went to high school, I really enjoyed, you know, learning about different artists and the history of art and stuff like that. And did you say that you did your degree on, was it philosophy? No, my degree, you know, in high school, I mean, my major was biology and chemistry. I was really into science, but also really into arts. And then I decided to go a totally different route. So I didn't study arts or illustration and also didn't study biology and chemistry. So I studied ethics and theology because at the time I was like, really, this philosopher kid really wanted to talk about the big questions. Like, what is the meaning of all this and stuff? So then I, you know, decided to study ethics and theology. That's it. It's really interesting that you say that because I have in my time scarring research papers on autism. There was one particular one that I picked up on and it was it was talking about philosophy and and autism. And it seems that for some reason or another, autistic people tend to have a lot of sort of insight into meaning behind things like we're more drawn, well, not everybody, obviously, but some select few others are very drawn to that sort of area. And I think over the course of my life, I've had many sort of encounters with philosophy in general. And it's it I was basically going through many, many existential crises from my life since about 14 to 22. And I was looking into reasons for things. And I was trying to figure out what what was the most concrete because I struggled to to function when I don't have anything concrete. So I needed to find something that sort of made enough sense for me to continue on. And I do have some very wacky philosophical beliefs because of it. But I think I think do you think that maybe that's that's another way of being creative, you know, getting into philosophy and thinking about deeper meanings and and all that jazz. Yeah, I think it is just like a real amazing gift that we have. You know, having this mind that is kind of endless is just amazing. I don't need a television or like any other sort of entertainment when you have your mind and you can go to places that are just, you know, crazy amazing. And so I have all I think I've always enjoyed expanding, you know, my consciousness and also just learning about other beliefs, spirituality and like different, you know, opinions. So I think it's it's just wonderful to interact with people and to get to know what they think about the big questions. Because that's why we are here and stuff because that's that's also something that that widely like wildly contradicts like the stereotypical autistic diagnosis. Because in general, I think one another one of the criteria is being a bit more single-minded and not really know, like I would sort of agree with that to some extent when I was younger. Like I definitely didn't think enough about other people in terms of how experiencing life in their shoes, just as like a natural thing. But as I got older, I developed I developed you have to kind of use like your higher brain to think about other people's opinions. You have to put a lot of energy into it. But that's cool that you you too like to hear about other people's opinions. Because I think it's great because you might learn something and you might agree of it. And if you don't, then you've got more more evidence to show that the other the other side of the side of the coin is more right. So I think there's a it's a great thing to do. Arts has, you know, creative things has been a big part of your life. How did you how did you start doing it? Can you remember the the time at which you decided to get out a note per note? God, stop learning over more words, get out a notepad and a pen and start scribbling and making some cool stuff. That's a really good question. It's really difficult for me to remember because, you know, when I was a kid, I wasn't born in Switzerland. My parents are originally from the Balkans, like ex Yugoslavia. And so when I was like two and a half years old, there was a big war and we had to flee the country. And I guess at that time, I think, yeah, one of my first memories were from that time where, you know, everyone around me was really in a hurry, really anxious because, you know, of all the circumstances. And I guess I was at the time I was already drawing, just having this safe space. This like something like, you know, the circle around me. That was a slow state. Yeah, yeah, totally. And so I remember a lot of, you know, situations from that time. But I also remember already, you know, having something in my hands and drawing away. As sort of an outlet to help you express your feelings about something. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't a conscious thing. I guess there was just like paper and pens. And as a kid, you just gravitate towards the things that interest you. And my parents didn't really like force me to draw or anything like that. So I guess it was, you know, my own motivation to wrap these things and to do something with them. So you said that you focus on things that you're interested in and you draw things that you're interested in. Is Super Spectrum Girl your alter ego superhero? Is Super Spectrum Girl a part of your drawing experience? Or is it the kind of most thing that you do? Doesn't make any sense. Is it the main thing that you do? Or do you do any of the kind of art in your own time? So Super Spectrum Girl is pretty much a community. So I started with, you know, creating illustrations about my experience. But it, you know, it developed into this community thing, like people telling me about their stories and about their struggles. And so I was starting to create more illustrations about the experiences of others, which, you know, was such an honor for me to like learn about these experiences. But I do a lot of different things. So I guess it's just one project that I have. And I also create illustrations for like small companies, but also just like families that want their like family portrait drawn. And aside from, you know, like the business-y kind of stuff of illustration, I love just like putting color on a piece of paper, not thinking about it, just letting the creative mind flow. It really helps me to, you know, not always think about what should I create, like this concept of an illustration. It's just like, do whatever feels right. Don't think about it. Yeah, I hope that makes sense. Yeah, it does. It makes, definitely makes sense to me, because recently I decided to buy myself a couple of notebooks. One was, I think I have it. Yeah, it says on the front of it, amazing ideas are made here or something. Something cheesy like that. And that's my little notes notebook to sort of think about concepts about mental autism and stuff. But then I also have another one, which is like an arty one. And I've just found that putting like your pen or your pencil on a piece of paper and then drawing, like not thinking too much and just drawing, your brain comes out with some weird stuff. It's so, it's really strange. And I haven't seen or heard about it from other people. I know that there's a lot of, you know, psychedelic art and things like that, that obviously people have done while they're, you know, on something. But I think from my experience, just putting a pen to paper, my brain just seems to splurge out all these weird things that correlate with my mood and what I'm experiencing at the time. And it's very strange, very strange. I'm glad that you, do you think that that sort of explains what you were talking about? Well, I do agree that, you know, we are, like there are people telling me like, I wish I was like creative as you are. And I'm like, you are creative. I mean, you can, you can create stuff. You're here on earth to do things and to make things with your hands and your mind. And so I think we all are, you know, part of this amazing experience where we're perceiving, perceiving this world with our own eyes, with our own experiences. And then putting that out there in a way that really reflects like who you are as a person on this earth is such a beautiful thing. I guess it's easy to imitate someone else, but it's really different and difficult, maybe more difficult to express yourself in the way that you feel is, is you, basically. And I've just been, I've actually just been flicking through some of your, your images. And there's, there's one that's particularly stood out to me as it's been very, I just love it. It's great. And it's what an autistic burnout feels like for me. Do you know that one? So with the spiral things and the questions coming out of it and stuff. The more recent one. Um, 22nd of November. So probably not that recent. Oh yeah. Yeah. But I really like that image. It's really cool. I just, I like some of the, some of the images that you make are just, just a bit, they're strange, but in a good way, if that makes sense. Thank you. I really like that. In a good way, strange, slight. Oh, this is, this is actually something new. This is not just like someone drawing a really nice face or during like a really nice flower. You're actually just, there's a level of deepness in it. In my attempt to not sound too cheesy. The definitely is I really like looking at your, your page. It's nice to, um, to see what, you know, how your mind takes in things and how you express what you feel and, um, experience and stuff. It's, it's great to look at. You're making me blush, but you know, the word strange really, really describes, you know, like my persona. So I, I like the word strange. Yeah, I love that too. It's just like, you know, being a little bit odd and yeah, yeah. But I guess, you know, when I look at my, my illustrations and like, you know, I start comparing myself to like really talented artists, you can like, you know, get a little discouraged because, um, in the times of the internet and social media, um, yeah, there's a massive community, isn't there? And you've got a lot of people from everywhere, some, you know, top not 0.01% of people who have amazing genes for pan skills or amazing ability to draw. Yeah, absolutely. But I think it's, it's great that, you know, we have, um, we're living in this time where we get to know about other artists and what they're doing. So I really enjoy that. There's like YouTube where you can like look up tutorials and share about, you know, what you're interested in as you are doing that. So there's also, you know, a really positive side to it. So to be able to, you know, self-publish and also put your stuff out there without being dependent on publishing house. Yeah. So I can imagine that if this was, if you were doing the same thing, if you were born maybe like 100, 200 years ago, the only people that would really see your art would be the people in the community, like in the local community. Whereas with Instagram, you can reach anybody. You can eat a whole pool of billions of people or using it. So it's, it is quite exciting as well. The fact that, you know, your stuff could be shown to so many people and, um, inspire them and tell them a little bit about the autism experience, tell them a little bit about the you know, experience. It's a great thing to do. Or the Thomas experience. Or the Thomas experience, yeah. I really like that what you're doing. I mean, it's such a great opportunity for people to tell their story. And, you know, I think it's great that you're creating this platform for the autistic community to share, you know, just share and be part of it, interact with others. Info dump, I've heard that term. Monologue. So just throw out some more autistic terms. So let's talk a little bit about the autism side. Do you think being autistic has benefited your art? And, you know, why does, you know, the whole creativity thing go against the grain a little bit in terms of stereotypes? So I know that there are some stereotypes about autism and from reading diagnostic things, it feels like sometimes a lot of people on the spectrum go against that when they get older. Do you feel like autism has had a beneficial effect? Well, um, you know, I've always thought, as I just told you before, I always thought of myself as being this strange and odd person, nothing. And sometimes I felt like an alien in a big room of other people. And getting diagnosed has really helped me to understand myself a lot better and to be more accepting of who I am as a person. But has it benefited my life? I think it has. It has helped me to express myself in a way that feels good for me. I haven't told a lot of people that I'm on a spectrum. A couple of my colleagues know, but also my family members, all of them know. Because my mom is also on a spectrum, my grandma as well. And I think it has helped me to have more courage and not to hide behind this mask of, you know, this really extroverted person. So I think it has benefited my mental health to diagnose it itself. But I don't know what it would like to not be autistic. Because it's just the only experience that I have being on this earth and this body and this brain. Yeah, you'd be a different person without it. Sure, absolutely. Do you feel like autism has benefited your art? Like do you feel like it gives you a bit of an edge in certain aspects? Or do you feel like in some ways it's harder? What I really love about being autistic is, you know, this like ability to focus on a task or a topic for hours and hours without getting bored. It's just like the superpower that we have or a lot of us have. And I think it's great. And I love, you know, being able to just draw for hours and hours and not get bored. Just like get into this drawing ship and take off and then return a couple of hours later. Yeah, I guess that is really cool. And do you feel like it affects your creativity in any way? Do you feel like you take a bit of a different angle on things? Are you more likely to do some new things with art? Or are you more likely to express it in different ways? I'm not sure. I guess, you know, being someone that experiences synesthesia as well, maybe, because colors and also numbers, they, when I'm talking to people, I guess I experience them in a different way because they are kind of connected with other senses. So maybe, I don't know. Hmm. I have heard from a few autism researchers at my university that synesthesia seems to be a bit more present in autistic people. I'll have to look that up later. But how is that? I'd never talked to anybody with synesthesia and it fascinates me beyond belief. Tell me about that. So I never thought a bit of it, you know, as being something like weird. It just was always, you know, numbers have personalities. They appear in colors. And I never like talked about that with someone. It was just, you know, part of going to school and doing maths and science and stuff. So it's more like, you know, numbers are not just like information. And it's more like they interact with each other. They have personalities and, but also colors, they are interact, they are connected with feelings. And yeah, it's really like difficult to explain, but it's like, your senses are connected and you experience them at the same time. So when I smell something, it comes in a color and I sometimes I see patterns that are moving and it's not like this like really trippy experience. It's just, you know, part of being, you know, Ina being in this world. It doesn't really bother me. It's just like part of who I am. But I guess, you know, more neurotypical people don't experience that. So that's when I like realize that is something that is probably has to do with my brain being worried a little differently. That's very interesting. I do, I am struggling a little bit to think about what that would be like. Is it, is it similar to thinking about something or is it, does it actually, so if you smell something, does it actually appear like in your visual perception? Is, do you see it like, or do you just see it in the back of your mind or it's more like when you, when you're like really happy, you're not just smiling. It's your body, your whole body is experiencing this sensation of being happy. And I guess, you know, for people, or I guess, at least for me, when I'm experiencing a color or a number, it like really takes, my whole body is experiencing. So I don't like see colors in front of my visual field. It's more, I experience it in my mind and with my whole being. It's really difficult to explain. I understand. Yeah, but it's a really cool thing. I mean, it doesn't bother me. Sometimes, you know, when you're not sure, I don't know how you experience that one, but when you're like really overwhelmed with like a lot of noise and different sensations, it can be a little too much. So, you know, I, it's not always a, you know, a nice feeling to, I mean, when someone is angry with you. You can feel the red. It doesn't necessarily have to be red. Sometimes it's like a different, like a different pattern of colors and, yeah. That's awesome. No, don't be sorry. Like you're doing a great job of explaining it. I think it's sort of one of those things that you can only experience if you, you can only truly appreciate it if you experience it. So does my voice and just talking to me give off any sort of different colors or anything? Oh yeah. Can you give me a profile? Yeah, sure. I mean, just the way that I perceive your voice. You have a really nice voice. So it's, it's like a really soft, I would say, like a grayish, bluish and kind of pattern and it's really soothing. So it's really nice talking to you. That's good because that is. I bet in person as well. Because those are the colors that I have on my logo. So, yeah. Oh, I did. I absolutely didn't like have that in mind. So it's just an intuitive thing. So that's good then. I've been told by some people that blue seems to be my color, but maybe I might actually start taking that into account. I do like, do like a little bit of blue. I feel like it, it's calm, sort of like calm, but not, it's like calm, but not too, too, too positive. Just sort of, that would describe me. And then obviously like a little bit of gray and stuff is more of kind of my dark way of viewing the world. That's so funny. I just look, I'm just looking at your logo and I haven't realized that, you know, before I was watching your videos and listening to your podcasts. But I never really paid attention. So I, I mean, this reaction was really genuine when I said like, really? Yeah. That's so cool. Brilliant. Well, I've got a little bit of a sinus physical, sinus fees. How do you say? How would you say that? Sinus physical. Profile. Don't ask me. Don't ask me. Cause you know, I have like no idea how you say stuff like, like really in a fancy way in English. So it's definitely not a real words. It's me trying to think of a word where there is none. But that definitely should be a thing. You should start selling your sinus, sinus physical profiles. Can make a bag, make a book load. Okay. In terms of the diagnosis of autism, um, restrictive imaginative play is a large hallmark of diagnosing it in children. What is your imagination like? And do you believe that that sort of statement about autism applies to you or other people? Well, um, in a certain way it does. Cause, um, I think being able to, you know, um, think creatively and also have this mind that is endless, like a little universe in your head is great. But I also think that it, you know, being able to play with others. And I think it's difficult to put yourself into the role or the shoes of someone else, especially as a kid, because you have like no idea how to behave in a social setting. So I guess that is probably one, one thing that is, you know, like more restricted with kids on the spectrum, because you're learning as you get older, how to behave. And when you don't know that, you know, like intuitively, I guess it's difficult to play in that sort of way. Yeah. And if, so to give, to give you an example, restricted imaginative play would be something like, okay, right, we're going to play shopkeeper. So I'm going to be a shopkeeper and you're going to play with me. Whereas non unrestricted imaginative play would be sort of like a fluid transition between games. Okay. So I can very vividly remember always wanting to be upfront about what the game is about. And I got, I used to get very frustrated when it changed in certain ways because it didn't, didn't sort of fit in with the mould that I had. But I think, I think definitely in some ways we can be, it restricted is a bad word for it. But I think it sounds like it's a negative thing. And it sounds like that we have no imagination, which is completely wrong. It's, I think we have to have a little bit of a framework to work from in order to be creative. So we need a little bit of a starter, a little bit of a structure in order to freely move between concepts and ideas and emotions and all of that kind of stuff. Would you, would you agree with that? Do you feel like you need to have something in mind to draw about before you do it? Or do you just... So this is a sentence finished. I'm sorry. I'm not sure because I can't see your face. Yeah, that's a struggle with podcasts. Yeah, like do you feel, do you feel like your imagination is like better than most people's? Or do you feel, or not better but more, I'm trying to think of the right word for it. Okay, better. I'm just going to stick with better. Do you feel like you excel in the imagination department? I don't think so. I mean, that would be really weird if I said like yes. But I guess where you're going with that question, it really helps me to have, you know, this, to have a piece of paper and to be in that piece of paper and I just like draw all over the table like to be have endless opportunity to express myself. So I really like, you know, that frame that you talked about, that really helps to, you know, put yourself into one experience of like being creative or doing a role play. So I'm sorry if I understood the question. No, it's completely fine. I am absolutely fumbling over my words. So just... No, no, no, no, no. It's just, you know what I'm talking about. Same. Yeah, so I guess, you know, when I, what I remember of being a kid, it really helped me to know what we were playing and to put myself totally in that role and that situation. It wasn't like, let's do this and then now let's do that and just like keep on going. It was like more, the rules have to be this and this and this and yeah. And then you can sort of expand from that, but you can't go against those rules. I guess so, but as you get older, you realize that there are like social rules and people don't function that way and yeah. Yeah, very good. Thank you. So yeah, going back to the stereotypes on autistic people, I imagine that many people who don't really understand it or have sort of a very limited understanding of autism would think that all autistic people are amazing at maths and computers and logic and, you know, it's sort of kind of rain man type character. You know, I feel like influences that a lot. Do you think that, why do autistic people seem to gravitate towards the creative side as well, where there's so much of an emphasis on logic and routine and it seems to be sort of like two different worlds to most people. How would you explain that? So I guess we're just people and as you know, there are people that are really talented at computers and maths and all the other like logical stuff and there are also people that are like really good at naming certain rocks or being like really skilled at something else like culinary stuff and yeah. So I guess we're just people and as people on the spectrum are just the same as others. We are, you know, we are talented at different things, but you know, with rain man and all the other stereotypes, I don't blame people because it's just like, you know what you know and when you hear about something, then you associate, you know, your experiences with that, which is just like a human thing that we do. But I guess just being on the spectrum, I guess we have this talent of like really putting ourselves into a topic and learning about all like the different aspects of it and you get better and better at this thing. It's not just like being really good at, you're just like really good at learning about it and like really, you know, gravitating to that and you get better and skilled at it. So it's more like you don't have these talents ingrained in you. It's more that your interest in them allows your interest in your concentration, the time that you put into it makes you into that person. Well, I guess it's like both. I think maybe there are a lot of people who are, you know, born like really being talented, playing the guitar or another instrument, or learning about something. I guess there is like this, how do you say like this biological, like the, what your genes you don't have to offer, but also what you learn with time. I guess it's like both, but it's difficult to talk about it because we don't really, you know, we can't like really know like a bigger brain doesn't work better than a smaller brain. And yeah, it's a really like complex thing, I guess, but I do believe that, you know, like being like really hyper focused on a topic is a huge part of it. Hmm. I do. I agree with you. I think it is a large part of being good at things on the spectrum. I find it, I find it very interesting that you sort of seem to be interested in different topics from different worlds. Like you like your ethics and theology. You like your biology and chemistry. You like your arts and imaging. And I think you said that you, you did, you were a social worker as well. So you seem to have a lot of different things that you are very interested in and you pursue, but they're not necessarily linked together. Yeah, maybe. Probably. Yeah, I guess like, I'm sure you, you are interested in like different topics that don't really like have much to do with each other as well. Yeah, definitely. My main creative outlet is writing. So I like creative writing. I've been writing a book for the past three or four months, just as like a thing that I enjoy. I'm trying to keep it as something that I enjoy because I feel like I get the most out of it. I get the most creativity out of it when I'm in the moment. But then, yeah, I also love sport. I love, like I go, I used to be used to do Taekwondo. I got quite high up in Taekwondo. I got myself a Commonwealth Gold. I went and competed for Britain and stuff like that. And now I'm boxing. And then, you know, I also love going. I love the job that I do. I love going in and seeing kids. I work in a special school. So it's, yeah, philosophy side. And then now and again, I'll do a bit of art as well, and YouTube. So yeah, I like that you have, sort of have, yeah, we say, we say we've got a phrase in England, which is, you have your fingers in many pies. I love that. Pies are good stuff. So it's a good comparison like that. I think one thing that I found with autistic people is that our interests can be literally from any direction. Most neurotypicals, not to generalize or hurt anyone's feelings, tend to have like a niche, like they have sort of a general group of things that they're interested in. And they seem to sort of revolve around a certain section of interests, whereas autistic people are just like a kid walking into, you know, like a store with every single thing in it and just picking up random stuff that they like the look of. I feel like that's, that there is a difference in terms of like interest and stuff. So it's a cool, cool thing to think about. It's always nice as well, because you've got no idea what another person would be interested in. If they're autistic, he's like, it could be interested in rocks or love going to museums. And it could, you know, like, I don't know, doing some blood spots in the backyard or something just randomly. It's a very extreme example, but he loves singing in nature, but he also likes a little bit of blood spot. Sounds like an interesting guy. So yeah, like, it is, it is very, very strange that there is that sort of few different things from different worlds. And I think our experiences and our interests shape a lot of, as with anybody shape a lot of who we are, and it's not necessarily bound by the way that our brain is and how we are born. I think there is always an underlying level of logic behind everything. We like to understand things and we like, we like to know why, why, why, why, why. We always ask why. And I think that does have some influence on the type of things that most autistic people interested in. But obviously, like with yourself and with some of the other people that I've talked to, sometimes, you know, you're just, you're an odd autistic person. So you're not just weird, crumbly and autistic, but you're weird as an autistic person as well, which is a great, great place to be. Yeah, absolutely agree. So what are the benefits that you've found for yourself? I know we talked a little bit about expressing things, but in particular, what are the benefits of you illustrating and drawing experiences that you've had, feelings that you've had and things that other people have had? Well, for me, I really love the aspect of, you know, creating something and then putting it out there for people that they can relate to, maybe. I love, you know, looking at other people's art, and then this art does something with my emotions. It creates, you know, this, like really interesting experience of, maybe it resonates, maybe it's totally, is, you know, like, I don't like looking at it because it provokes something inside of me. So I like that aspect of being able to share what, you know, I create and for people to relate to it or not. It always creates, you know, this opportunity to open a discussion and to learn about each other's opinions. But in general, I think it is just really healthy. And I would love for everyone to find something that puts them in this, like, I think people always think of meditation as, like, sitting somewhere and being, like, really quiet, but just being able to find something that helps you to not have to think about the things that you have to do or what happened in the past, just to be present in a moment and enjoy yourself. I think it's really healthy to have something like that. And I would totally love for everyone to find what they love doing, what they love putting their fingers into. It could be some bacon tarts or some angel slices. I mean, they have to shove your fingers quite hard into this pot. I completely get that. I think that's, you know, it's a great, it's sort of, it's very much a meditative type state. And it doesn't even have to be something that is, you know, just has to just doesn't just have to be to do with illustrations. It could be anything that you make anything that part of you goes into. I think there is something to say about drawing and something to say about writing that does have that meditative kind of feel to it and music. And it has helped me a lot. And the more that I've done it, the more that I actually want to, which is strange for me, because I'm very hyperactive and I like to move about a lot. And I don't know, it puts you in some kind of Zen flow like state where you just, you don't feel happy. You just feel like content and you just let let your mind just go. And it is a very good like downtime kind of thing, something to do when you've got, when you feel so overwhelmed, you know, you can just pull out your note pad, you can pull up your notes on your, you know, your phone or something and type away. It is very cathartic in that way. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. It's really cathartic. Do you think that it has specifically drawing and illustrating about autism has helped you grow more and helped you learn more about yourself and about other people? Oh yeah, absolutely. Especially putting it on Instagram where people have totally different opinions on stuff and phrasing things. I always have to think about how to phrase stuff. So I mean, people always get offended, but I don't want to be politically incorrect. So a couple of weeks ago, I posted this illustration and I wrote, it's totally fine to be antisocial sometimes. And people, some people really offend it because it meant something totally different. I just pulled it up. Yeah. And so I had to read it. Because, you know, it means something different in my language. Yeah, yeah. And social is like, screw the law, you know, like, you know, beating people up and not conforming to society. But it makes sense I think if you put a hyphen between anti and social, it might work a bit better. But did people get genuinely upset at you for it? Or is it just... No, I have to say that the community that is on Instagram is really supportive. I do get the occasional really hateful message, but usually it's a really open discussion and people are willing to, you know, learn from each other. And I really like that aspect. It really helps me also to put myself into someone else's thoughts and, you know, ways of thinking. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. What was the question again? I don't think... I can't remember. It wasn't a set in stone question. So it was just kind of a, you know, sort of an info dump, I suppose, followed by your info dump. Yeah, let's info dump it. Yeah. Sounds like a horrible thing that you do for someone, isn't it? Just like, here, I'm going to dump all this, you know. But it just means so well. You want people to know, you know, about stuff. And it's not that you have bad intentions. Exactly. Do you find that I don't feel like people talk enough about what they've learned? Like, I love it. I love talking to other people on the spectrum, just as like a general thing, because it literally is like a little lesson in something that you would never really think of looking into before when you talk to an autistic person. I've talked to some, even just like some kids at school. There's this kid in my class that is amazingly interested in history. And he's amazing at it. And he draws pictures of it. And he tells me about all the wars and the political stuff that's happened in places that I had never really thought to look into about. But yeah, I always feel like I learned something new from talking to an autistic person. But you know, I think that comes from our lack of interest in sort of small talk. We like to get to the meat of it as quick as possible, though. Yeah, let's avoid all the other crap around it. Definitely. Let's save some time. Yeah, I think that's awesome. I really love that, Thomas. You don't spend any time on the social norm stuff. You're just getting into the big questions. And I love talking to autistic people. It's just awesome. And it's nice, because obviously, most of my friends and most people I talk to are neurotypical, like the people in my circle, just because, you know, us being one to two percent of all people. But you know, I do love, I like the different styles of communication. You know, there is some, sometimes when I'll meet someone, one of my friends who's autistic and we're just two minutes in, we'll immediately jump into some long discussion. And it's great, because it's like, you have to ease neurotypicals into it. It's like, you can't just go, hey, what do you think about the meaning of life and all that, and the impending doom that's constantly surrounding us and the entropy of the universe slowly degrading? Oh, yeah. Maybe not that. To be honest, I wouldn't open with that even with an autistic person, but just to say a very extreme example once again. But yeah, it's, it is nice. You sort of, you know, meet one of your autistic friends again. He used to sort of a little switch in your brain clicks and you're like, hey, I don't have to talk how I usually talk around people. I can just talk as an autistic person, then you just go into some long rants about stuff. It's great. I love it. We've talked a little bit about autism and the creative arts and what led you into it. How do you recommend others get involved in something creative? How do they start? What do they do? Which things do they try? I guess just look around you, look what inspires you. Maybe it's people, maybe it's friends, and just, you know, maybe go on YouTube and maybe it's something that you've seen in a movie. I guess there are a lot of sources of finding something that resonates with you. And just be open. Maybe it's something on a sidewalk that you see that inspires you to do something or start something new. Yeah. I guess just follow your instinct. What feels right for you? I feel, yeah, definitely. I feel that the whole thing about creativity is that you can do literally anything by its own definition. I know of, there was a girl, there's a girl, a friend that I went to Amsterdam to meet and she came onto the podcast just like a couple of months beforehand and she had this sort of picture up on the wall and it was sort of a collage of feathers that she'd made and she'd made it into a picture and these were feathers from different birds all over like different countries and stuff like that. And she'd made this illustration and she'd stuck these feathers on in just such an amazing way. And I couldn't help just feel completely envious of that because it's just like, you're shoring in the moment if you're out with friends and you're just like, hey, I'm just going to pick up this feather and they'll be like, what are you doing? But you know, those types of things I feel even more cool, you know, you're making something out of nothing, literally, and you're just letting your creative juices flow, which is nice. What about the stage where you find something that you want to do? Because obviously with everything, there's always a little bit of a transitioning period and, you know, time to get to incorporate it into your routine. How do you recommend people sort of find that and not just feel like they're just forcing themselves to do it? Well, I guess there's always, you know, this stage of where you are learning about different techniques, especially in art. And I think it's nice to experiment with that and don't get discouraged, because, you know, I totally suck at some techniques. For example, oil painting is something that I've never done before. And I guess just try out different things and experiment with it. And with, you know, with everything, you get better with time. And just keep on, you know, trying and trying out new techniques that you see from people that inspire you. Yeah, don't put too much pressure on yourself to do it. Because you've got to be in a sort of chilled, I want to do this, I just want to sit down and splurge my brain out onto a piece of paper or into a microphone. You got to be in that, you definitely have to be in that mood. I think as soon as it crosses over into you doing it, when you're not in that mood, it becomes more of a chore and it feels more like it's work, which it shouldn't be, I don't think. So I think, yeah, having the right mindset or actually wanting to do it is quite important. Having the right atmosphere. Maybe it's a coffee shop that you like to go to, or maybe it's, you know, your living room, or, you know, maybe even your garden, you just sit outside and you put some nice music on, you just chill out and you have your book there. You know, maybe you might not write anything, but you might suddenly have a surge of inspiration and feel like you want to jot some stuff down. I feel like that's a good way to ease yourself into it. You don't want to be too forceful. Yeah. And if there's a time where you're probably not inspired, that's fine too. Just, as you said, just go in the garden or just sit in a coffee shop and look around you, perceive the world around you, and maybe something will spark, something inside of you and creative juices are going to flow again. So yeah, don't force yourself. I think that's a big, big tip. So we've talked through most of the questions already, like we're nearly at the tail end of the podcast. Shall we sort of do a little bit of a three-point summary on the things that we talked about? What three things that you've mentioned, although we've mentioned, do you think are the most important takeaway from the podcast? So I think one of the things that really inspired me is that you said it's just like do what really feels right for you. I mean, you're creating this podcast to share the experience of other people around the world and really embracing the message that be yourself. You don't have to prove yourself to others, especially being on the spectrum. Sometimes we tend to do that just because people perceive you as a neurotypical person. You don't have to prove that you're on the spectrum. You don't have to prove yourself. You're here on this planet to experience life to the fullest. So just do that. Cool. And the second one? A second one. It's going to be hard to top that one. So I think it's really cool to ask questions. We love to ask questions ourselves about different topics and about the thoughts and feelings of others to really get what they think about a certain topic. So I think it's great for people to ask what it's like for us to be autistic and not just have these speculations and stereotypes. Just ask away. Questions are cool, man. So yeah, I think that's another thing that I would really encourage people to. We love questions. We like very structured questions to the point. If you ever want to start a little conversation with an autistic person, just ask them questions and then just quick fire questions at them. They'll love it. Yeah. Yeah. I think everyone is keen on being like, you know, when people are interested in, you know, you and your thoughts and feelings, you're pretty much in a good position to ask away because they feel like you are not just like here to interact with them because you have to, I mean, you're just like really interested in them. And that's a really cool thing to experience in a conversation. Shall we go for a third one? Oh, now it's getting difficult. Tensions are rising. Brain is active at 100% looking for memories, um, compiling, computing. I think just, um, just be, just find something that really, really makes you happy. And I really love the way that you described writing and how you like really enjoy sitting down with a notebook and a pencil and just writing away. Find something or maybe you already have it in your life that really makes you forget everything around you and embrace that. Just try out different techniques and maybe learn about how others do it and you'll find your own way to, um, you know, maybe it's, it's art, maybe it's writing, maybe it's, um, sports or something else. I would really encourage people to just follow, follow their heart. Oh man, that sounds so cheesy. Follow your heart. All right. I totally take it back. But yeah, experience the emotion. Yeah, totally. I think it's cool to experience something. I think it's definitely, um, hard for, for many people in the spectrum to follow the heart. You think so? It needs to go through the brain. It needs to go through the brain first. Are you sure? Are you sure? Well, I'm not so sure about that. Definitely for me. Yeah. I, I, I feel things, but I need to critically analyze them in long paragraphs in order to fully understand what I'm feeling. I get ya. But yeah, cool. Awesome. Those are some free, really good points to take away. And now comes to the last question of the podcast, podcast podcast. What does autism mean to you personally? Artism means being and thinking, um, differently being open to, um, everything around you. Just like really being open to experiences, opinions, but also, um, really being interested in learning and asking. And I think it's really cool to be on the spectrum. Yeah. And it means so much to me to be part of, um, an amazing community of people who are just like absolutely brilliant and so cool to hang out and talk to. Brilliant. Like you to always. Thank you so much. Hooray. I very much enjoy the verbal affirmations. So it's a soft spot for me. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me on this amazing podcast. It was really pleasure. Brilliant. So let's give out a few little, um, links. Um, do you want to share some of your social media pages, uh, your YouTube and your Instagram and your website and Etsy store and all of that stuff? Yeah, sure. Um, so if you want to see, you know, like some crazy weird stuff and, um, on the interwebs, you can follow me on Etsy or Instagram, but also YouTube and all like pretty much the other, um, social media, um, under Super Spectrum Girl. I'm creating illustrations, but also like travel vlogs and videos about what it's like to travel as a autistic, um, person and other stuff like mental health topics and stuff like that. And I would really love to chat with you guys. So thank you Thomas for this opportunity. No worries. And I will stick all of that down in the description as usual. You know, so if you, if you just want to scroll down, maybe take a little look at the, uh, the little, um, little things that I wrote, have a, have a click of those links and, um, you'll be able to, uh, view some of Super Spectrum Girls amazing art. And, um, I think I did say recently that I would love to have one of your t-shirts. I need to get one of your t-shirts. I will definitely wear it in a future video on YouTube. You just have to send me your size and I'm going to hook you up with one. And what, you know, like what design that you want. Brilliant. That'll be so cool. That'll be so cool. I'm going to have some autism related merch in my videos now. Very cool. If you want to find out more about what I do, uh, no, it's very egocentrical with me, but, um, no, absolutely. Um, that's an important thing. It is. It is. You can find me on YouTube, Asperger's growth type in. I got some videos on autism, mental health. You can also follow me on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at Asperger's growth. And of course the 40 auto podcast, which is available on Apple podcasts and I was going to say 40 auto podcasts, Apple podcasts and Spotify podcasts. Thank you so much for joining us today and listening to us talk about autism and, you know, I love to be able to have these little conversations. It's, it's, it is more of a pleasure of mine. I enjoy it thoroughly coming on here and chatting to cool people like yourself, Ina. Thank you. I really, like, I'm really honored, but, um, I don't consider myself cool, but thank you for saying thank you so much, Thomas. It was awesome chatting to you. Like, really? Really? Did you enjoy it? Yeah, absolutely. It was so interesting. Thank you so much. Well, we'll have to do something more in the future, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, if you want to give me any ideas of what to do in the next podcast on, maybe you want to be on yourself, you have an interesting story, you can always contact me at, I was going to say at Asperger's growth again. It's a running theme in this podcast. Asperger's growth at joomile.com. Shoot me an email. We can always have a chat about something. Thank you very much for watching, watching, listening, rather, and I will see you again in two weeks for the second, well, not the second episode. I'm already going off the rails. My brain knows that we're finishing soon for the next podcast. See you later, peeps. Bye. Bye. I never know how to end these podcasts, but you know, as I said before, that's, um, that's how I end them by questioning my lack of end sequence. It's a very interesting, uh, weird thing. Why am I still doing it? Bye.