 to the performing arts community, particularly Nairobi, but in the Eastern African region about how a lot of our practices are really distinctly defined just as any regions are by our history and our ancestry and our sort of pre-colonial, during the colonial and present histories and stories. So we thought, why not speak to different women who have been working in the field in different capacities and learn about their experience and journey? So Wanjiku, why don't you tell us who you are as a theater artist, start with. Well, I'm an actor. I started out as an actor before I transitioned into directing. So that being said, I have a lot of respect for actors. I began my practice early 2012, yeah, as an actor in school. I went to Kenyatta University. And once there, we used to have a small society for theater actors. And we'd perform our shows and so basically I just got a lot of interest and started looking at what is happening in the Kenya industry in general. And so I got to perform on a lot of professional shows at the Phoenix. I performed one show at the Phoenix and some with Friends and Sample. And yeah, I got to experience directors like Millicent Ogutu, Ogutu Muraya and Lydia Gitashu who really owned my skill and helped me to blossom as an actor. Of course, I didn't get to the level that, I didn't get to a professional level as an actor before I was tagged into directing quite accidentally by a few friends of mine at our society who said, you know, we have this show, we don't have a director. How about you come in cause you have more quote unquote professional experience cause you've worked in the industry. And I decided, you know what, why don't I try it? It couldn't be had. It was. And after that, I realized directing is a craft that needs work like any other. And I just fell in love, fell in love with creating a vision, creating a dream and helping other people execute it. And after that, after directing my first show in campus, I ended up directing another as the final year project. And then that opened doors for places like the theater company that I worked with. And years later, I found myself, I found myself pregnant and I thought, oh my God, I need to do something with my art, something more because at the time we were still very focused on British passes cause those were the only scripts we could access, play writing hadn't opened up. So with a couple of friends, I got an idea to do a show called We Won't Forget which was like my debut as a professional director. The first show I co-directed with a lady called Alice Combane. She really helped me come up with the idea and actually make it work. I worked with a team of actors who coincidentally also ended up being the actors I went with to 24 Buds. So yeah, We Won't Forget ended up getting a lot of critical acclaim. We went to festivals like Ubumuntu, the Kampala International Theater Festival. And after that, we started doing it in Kenya more because it focused on the post-election violence and terrorism as domestic terrorism, basically for the post-election violence and terrorism as a whole. And that gave me purpose as a person because I felt like I'm now saying something. I'm actually talking about our stories and actually making a difference in the world. And after that, after doing We Won't Forget, we had a lot of reruns because the show spoke to a lot of people. That's when I worked with Abu Sense for the first time, Gatia for the second time, actually not second, we'd worked with Gatia a lot. And because we'd worked together so well on the last run of We Won't Forget, Abu Bakar and Gatia thought, you know what, come through and direct. We have this brain child of ours called 24 Buds. Could you come and direct? And of course they passed it through the Kadzitu Sisters Code Inc. They run a company called Code Inc. And our producer Miriam Kadzitu was like, yes, we want her. So we also worked with her on We Won't Forget. And that's beautiful. Partnership proceeded to 24 Buds and we worked on the first, second, third and fourth series, which was the Brazen edition. On the Brazen edition, we had different writers which was, they were Ann Mora, Aleya Kasem and Laura Ekumbo and the three ladies who now run the Lam sisterhood thought, you know what, we also want to work with you. And yeah, so they gave me an opportunity to also direct the Brazen edition, which was basically a retelling of, a retelling of Kenyan heroine stories from the side of, from our side. We've always had stories about our heroes told from the side of the oppressor. So for the first time we were hearing it from our side and women have been excluded from time immemorial from history. So this time we decided, you know, they decided and then they brought the stories to me. They're going to do it differently. They're going to tell the stories of women. They're going to put women where they're supposed to be because women did a lot to fight for our independence. And it's ended up being a very beautiful show. We learned a lot, we formed very good relationships. And yeah, so yes, that's, I think, too much about myself. It's never too much. It's never too much. I have so many questions. I don't even know which one to start asking. So when you spoke about kind of your transition from being an actor into directing, how has your sort of background in acting influenced your practice as a director, if at all? It really has because that's where I'm comfortable. I find that there's a quote that Jody Foster said, if you want to understand, if you're a director and you want to understand actors, acts, you'll be humbled, which is true. And that humility is what I bring to my craft because most of the time I'll find an actor has a problem that I already went through when I was acting or can resonate with at the time because I can also, I also have that in my system. I practiced the craft and I was very dedicated to my acting. I still love acting, acting is amazing. Actors are just beautiful human beings who give their souls and their everything to a role. So that usually is where I'm comfortable as a director. Of course, there's a lot that comes with directing the story, the design and everything, but acting, my conversations with actors, that's where I feel like this is home, you know? Yeah. And just to follow up on some of the responses for our audiences, the land sisterhood that Wanjiku mentioned will actually be a part of this series in the coming week. So it's going to be exciting to hear from their perspective what that process was like. But just to go back to one thing that you said is that in between that journey, you found yourself pregnant and your mom. And I'm a very proud auntie to Shani and Naya. So I, you know, just given that we speak about the idea of directing as mothering as the sort of title of our episode, how did that change your life, if at all? I'm sure, of course, but like how did it change your life? Okay, so first of all, as our director, first of all, as when I directed the first, first we wouldn't forget, the first one we wouldn't forget, I was pregnant. And the first run of 24 BADs, I was pregnant. And it said that when you're pregnant, your empathy levels rise. So I feel like that really impacted my style without me knowing because I could really, I could resonate with the stories and the actors on another level. I felt very connected to them, to what they were going through. I could actually feel the pain of the characters. And it's helped me understand how to deal with people better, being a mom and all. And also being an, it's not a very big difference to be a mom and a director because, and we've had this conversation before. Sometimes I'll come for rehearsals and I'll be blocked and then I'll go home, look at my kids and I'll get an instant idea of what I'm supposed to do as a director because inherently we are all children deep down. So sometimes you can just understand, oh, this is what the actor is going through. If the child is being difficult, for instance, I'll understand, oh, the child is just trying to communicate with me. So if my actor was difficult during rehearsals, I'll realize I'm not listening or this is what I need to do as a director to actually get them to open up and feel confident in the process or in me, yeah. Yeah, this is just, I mean, it's so interesting how you're kind of translating the sort of experiences that you're having in the household within a space that is professional. What other things do you do or do you think about when you walk into a rehearsal room? Is there a ritual? Is there a kind of space that you aspire to what's creating? Tell us a bit more about what it would be like for our viewers today if they were walking into your rehearsal room. Okay, so I try as much as possible to create a safe space for everyone. That means complete vulnerability because there's no way we're going to be at our best as actors, as performers, as artists if we are not completely open. And so that is usually the first thing. I want us to bond as much as possible. I want to create a space where everyone feels hard, everyone feels seen and we leave all our problems at home. And any person who's practiced theater knows that the first thing is working out. Like the first 30 minutes of warm up just usually just helps us like leave things behind. And for some of my shows, not all of them though, we usually have a little activity where we walk around the space at different energy levels and we literally envision ourselves living the day behind and wearing the body and everything that becomes the artist. There's a lot of meditation, there's a lot of introspection and there's a lot of letting go. I prefer to concentrate on the process rather than the product. It's a learning process for me too. If you'd have asked me this a year, I would have told you, yeah, I've had it. But the more I work with people, like recently I worked with Ogutumoraya who's also of the same opinion that process trumps product. And he also taught me different ways of going into that. And as a director, I feel like that's the thing that I would bring to the table. If you allow me, I'll tell you my first experience as a director, which was horrible because I thought that directing was supposed to be about shouting and being the boss and that and setting my dominance in the space and it is not. So by the end of before the show, one of the actors approached me and she was a dear friend of mine and she told me that, you know, when you come with that energy in the space, it makes us shrivel and we can't just be ourselves. And that's why every time you leave the rehearsal room, things just flow and then you come back and then we're all scared of you. And I was like, oh, wow. So I learned two lessons. One that that process does not work for me because I do not want to make my actors shrivel, I want them to be at the best that they can be. And the other lesson that I learned was listening as a leader because as challenging as that is, that if I hadn't listened to that lady at that time, I wouldn't have gotten to where I am. I wouldn't have learned that important and valuable lesson. And after that, I had to lock myself up after that show, that show was not the best but I still stand by it. I'm proud of my work. That was the best I could do at the time. Once I sat down and thought about it, I realized it's more important to get an actor to a place, to a better place than I found them rather than getting perfection because perfection is so far-fetched and it sexually does not exist, you know? And by shouting and as setting my dominance, all I was doing was reflecting my insecurities because I'd been an actor and I knew the kind of excellence I wanted to bring to the table, you know? This is the kind of process I go through as an actor. So of course you as an actor need to do that because I usually give brilliant performances you as my actor should do that. So it wasn't productive in any way. And nowadays, I'm okay with an actor delivering one amazing moment. I'm okay with that. If that's not where you are when we started rehearsal, I am okay with letting go and letting you just blossom in that one moment even if you couldn't deliver a whole show, you know? And it's not something that a lot of people are actually like okay with because we're very product driven as the entire world. So sometimes people are like, why not focus on making this person excel? And that's also another lesson in directing you. There are things you can't make an actor do. They have to be there as an actor. So if you cast that person, that's on you and you have to accept them as they come. Same way, you can't give birth to a child and then return them to their maker and tell them okay, she's broken. Give me another one. You have to mold this child as they come and accept anything they do wrong as a reflection of just growth. This is what needs to happen. This is their journey. And every actor has their journey, yeah. You know, I just, first of all, I want you to direct me, please. Just to make sure you've talked about working together for such a long time, I think. We do work together in various capacities, but I'd love to just be your apprentice in a room and learn about your process. I'm so dying. Thank you. I mean, I guess this I think is coming also from a personal place which I'm curious about in the Kenyan theater industry and also in the international work that you've done at the Compile International Theater Festival and various other opportunities you've had. How do you navigate creating that safe space that you've spoken so eloquently about? How do you facilitate that growth but then also navigate the sort of unspoken pressure of the product? That there has to be something on stage at some point. And fortunately, unfortunately, not everything that you've directed is in progress. So how do you make sure that the work is on the stage and it's open to thousands of people to come and watch whilst also keeping the rehearsal space a temple? I'm reminded of two things. Parts of creating is learning how to let go. So I'll get back to that. The other thing I'm reminded of is like it's growth. It's a journey. I remember during KITF, the Kenya International Theater Festival, it was high pressure. It was a very big production. For Kenya? Oh, sorry, Kampala, sorry. Okay, okay, okay. Just making sure it was. I got something there. Wait, wait, did we talk about Kenya? Please tell me about that festival. Hello, I meant the Kampala International Theater Festival. Thank you. It was very high pressure. And I was taking on the role of Associate Producer with NBMTI and I was also directing. And you were with me there. You know, it was like, we wanted to give like a remarkable show for this beautiful audience. And part of my growth is understanding that it wasn't about, now the lesson that I learned and I took home with me was, it wasn't about the show by the end of the day. The show ended up being whatever it ended up being. It was beautiful. But it was about how now that I look back, it was about how I as a director carried myself and how I protected my actors. At that point, I don't believe I did my best to create that safe space because there was a lot, there was a lot going on. And my insecurities from the fast production that I did, thinking that this is it. You know, this is how, this is what I've been working towards, you know, and all that unnecessary pressure that I was putting on myself. That made me not create the space that I wanted to create. But that being said, that was also a very big impactful lesson that I learned. And moving forward, I know now how to create what I, how to believe in myself enough to say, okay, I understand that things don't go this way in certain spaces, but this is how I do things. And if by the end of the day, the product is not up to par, at least we are all safe, we are all happy. And, but the beauty of that whole experience is also having a team of people that helped me, you know? And that's another lesson I came out with. I had like a remarkable team of people who are always there to work with me. And it also taught me to be very careful about my team because when I'm not at my best, my team carries me. And if my team is not there for me, then yes, you know? So yeah, so KITF 2019 was a very, very big. And I call it like life defining experience for me because it helped me like step back, especially this year and just cruise through everything and take stock and be like, okay, so there is merit in my style. There's merit in how I approach directing and I shouldn't let go of it, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's something I always remember. There's an, I'd say an idol of mine called Karolodongo. She's a lovely woman and a brilliant Kenyan director. She's phenomenal. And the first time I met her after being ostraced for so long, I finally got to my guts to ask her like, a couple of questions on directing. She told me it will all make sense with time, just give it time. And whenever I'm under pressure now, I go back to those words and I'm like, okay, regardless of the space, regardless of the experience, regardless of the people, it's about time. So if, and the same thing with actors, if an actor is not there yet, it's about time, you know? This is their first show and let them go through their journey, let that actor fall, let her succeed, let that actor just get their own experience as opposed to interfering with the actor's process. Yeah, I mean, what I hear you saying really is giving people space and time to breathe and holding the space for them, but also making sure the space is held for you for you to fall back. Oftentimes, in different contexts, that's not necessarily done in the same way. And so it's really interesting to hear about your experiences when it hasn't happened and how that's been for you and when it has and what that has helped you grow from. But talking about idols and mentors, actually that was the next question I wanted to ask you. Who are some of the people? First of all, just to say, I think there's an entire generation of young people that look up to you as their idol, myself included. And so who are the people you look up to and why? What about their work fascinates you? Why are they people that are on your radar? You know, how did they get on your radar? Tell me more about who you would have when you're official sort of empowerment committee that have made you who you are today. Like I said, there's Carol O'Donnell. I've already mentioned her. I find her work amazing, especially her work with actors. Her nickname in the industry is Coach. So it tells you a lot about her process and how nurturing she is to the actors. There's also Julissa Ro. I love that woman. I was lucky enough to go for a refresh. Of course, this early this year, at the beginning of this year with Sanifo Productions, they had held a director's workshop. And Julissa was just amazing in how she helped. You could see, like you could tell, this is the energy she brings into a rehearsal room. And when she talks about her process, it was just like, wow, yeah. And then there's Sheba, Sheba Hust. I love that woman. I love her because she empowers. She's like a giver of, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. Being in a room with Sheba just makes you be the best that you can be. And then there's a lot of women but they've always kept my mind. But the other people that I can think of is Good Inc. Good Inc. have been there for me through thick or thin. And I remember when we were working together and I was pregnant and I told them, I think it was Josika Zito. I told her, I don't want to give up because a lot of women give up after their given birth and she was like, okay. And when I was ready to give up on directing and just be whatever, she came to my house, she and Miriam Kazito, they came to my house and they held my hand and they were like, no, you're going to direct the next show because we want you to direct the next show. Do you want us to carry your baby for you? They shall do that. So those are some of the experiences with those women that have just like made me realize these are the people that I want on my committee that's folded. And then there's you, girl. There's also you. I can't leave you out from that, too. You're just an amazing person. And the Lam sisterhood, the Lam sisterhood has been there for me, like they made me, I remember during brazen, they made me, their whole experience with brazen just made me blossom more as a director, as a young female director. It made me embrace my awkwardness. It made me embrace my brilliance. It made me just be and just summon all the heroines that have fought for Kenya and for the world. So yeah, that is my team. I'm sure there are a lot of other people that have left out. It's just the... They're all standing behind you, pushing you up. They're all there. They're all there. It's beautiful. You mentioned Shiba, you mentioned the Lam sisterhood. You mentioned so many folks that I know personally that you've worked with and that you continue to work with. Now, like for example, Miriam Shiba produces and the Lam sisterhood are writers for our viewers who may not have context. I'm just presenting that. How... And you're a director. And how... I guess the question I want to ask is, how does that change or does that affect the way you're working in a room together? Because oftentimes, within various contexts, the producer becomes the decision maker logistically or the writer kind of has a specific say with the kind of text they want on stage, of course. And in many ways, from what I've heard you say from my experiences, directing really becomes a way to navigate all of these other externals, like the designers and producers and the writers to put this new piece of work on stage or whether it's a new work or not. What I'm saying is that I understand directing more is like this idea of facilitating, but how is your relationship affected? Or how is your presence as a director affected in the room, especially when some of these people have titles like they are producer or they're calling the shots and you aren't? I'll speak... I don't think that's clear. Yeah, it's very clear. Thank you. Okay, great. I'll speak of my experience with Miriam Kazitu as producer. We had a code of sorts. Every time we'd work together, we still do. We trust each other enough not to interfere with the work that someone is set out to do. For instance, if I've come up with the creative vision of the entire show, Miriam and I will have a lot of pre-production meetings where she gets to understand like, okay, so this is your vision. That is why you are so persistent on getting this particular bottle for the production design. And she won't trample my decision just because she is like the producer. She will try to accommodate their vision and believe in it as much as possible. And I've not worked with Sheba on a creative project per se as the producer, but I've also seen her. I was lucky enough to shadow the director of Return on the Body, Mugambin Diga, when he was directing the show. I just marveled at how Sheba would work, how she would also create space for the director and not interfere. She would make sure she was more of a cushion to the director than a hindrance. And that's the same thing I've experienced with Miriam. She'll be there to cushion you. And she'll be there when you're venting because as much as I love actors and they are the best people in the world, they could also be very, very, very, very, yeah. I won't finish that statement. So on those nights when you're like, they will come and they will be your shoulder, basically. And you also have, because of our relationship, I have so much respect for them that I never want to give them anything other than my best when we are working. And when it comes to the Lam sisterhood, we also have that conversation before I'm like, so once you give me the script, I'm the director and you're the actors or you're the writers. So you let go of the script and trust that. Yeah, trust that. I have read the script and internalized the story and I am ready to hold it down. And with Brazen specifically, sorry, with Brazen specifically, yeah, with Brazen specifically, we had a lot of meetings and because I also was the drama tag for the production, it's helped them like let go as writers, you know, and also trust me. And I feel like we had a very beautiful experience in that way because they let go and just that trust, that trust is hard to achieve. I'm not going to lie, it's work, but it happens over time, over time working together and even knowing each other personally helps a lot. Yeah, so yeah, so. I just want to, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, you just wanted to ask. You told it, yeah, but I'm like trying to catch you just as you're finishing a sentence because I'd love for you to speak a little bit more about what it's like to be directing people that have been writing the piece and then all of a sudden they're actors and then they jump out to become the dramaters and then, so there's constantly shifting roles, right? Within our context, you're not just only the director, you can't ever just be the director, I feel here, specifically, how does that manifest? Even when it comes to power dynamics, not only that, I think you've spoken about that, but when it comes to collectively creating a piece, but then being told because the director. I've actually like come to think of it, most of my productions have had the actors also being the writers or the writer being the producer. So again, it just goes back to the element of trust but how that works is like, for instance, with Abusens and Gatia who used to have an entire ritual where we'd meet at the cafe above our Kenya National Theater and they would literally come with a printed copy of the script, hand it to them and then tell them, now pass me the script. Okay, you've given me the script, I am now the director, you are now officially not writers but that works only after you've worked on the script like a lot as now the drama tag, enough for the writers to be confident enough to be like, okay, so we are okay with this copy. It involves a lot of communication and in that way, you foster a lot of trust and for the first 12 for buds, it was not as easy as I'm saying it but by the time we got to the second 12 for buds, we were already like accustomed to, oh, so this is how it goes and Abusens and Gatia would easily like just let go of the script and they are good in that way, they will leave the director has space or his space to create, to come up with and give them whatever they need to grow and blossom and that's also my experience with the Lam sisterhood. They also have that ability, once they have a finished work of art, like finished script, they'll be like, okay, so here's your script, we are done, we are not going to interfere and I remember with Brazen, Mora had this beautiful moments where she'd have a discovery about a line after I'd talk it through with an actor and I should be like, oh, I didn't even know that and I was the writer and she had the grace of saying that in front of the other actors, which even if it's not true, even if she was just playing it for confidence sake, it gives the other actors a lot of reassurance but it's not easy also having the writers in the room because the other actors will constantly ask a question and then turn to the writers. So if you have the support of the writers, they'll just be like, me, I'm not the writer, over here I'm an actor, just like you, so maybe ask the director. So that's how we've, that's the dynamic we've created with those productions. It's always been like, this is your turn, I'm done. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and almost quite literally a physical gesture of like handing this over to you now, kind of is also something that I hear you saying it's part of the process, yeah. Yeah, so it's just been dramatic, but it helps. I mean, we are in the field, right? So I think we justify it too. Keep the drama on the stage and out of our personal lives, that's really the way we go. Exactly, exactly. Let's switch gears a bit in the last few minutes that we have together. What do you do to feed yourself artistically? You help others grow so much in the room, so how do you grow? How do you, beyond the rehearsal room, what do you want, what do you do to excite yourself artistically? Okay, so for a long time it's been, I love movies by specific directors. They're specific directors I look for who feed me and feed my style. I've recently also become like very keen on the kind of books I read. I read a lot, not as much as I want to, but yeah. What kind of books do you read? I like character-driven narratives, whether it's a movie, whether it's a book, whatever. I also read a lot of screenplays because it helps you, it's something I got from a certain director called Elia Kazan. When you're not in the process of a production, it's better to get a script from wherever and still work on it like you do when you're in production. So the same steps you take whether it's like breaking down the script, thinking of the vision, thinking of production design, thinking of everything, like seeing, literally seeing the production on stage. It's actually helped me a lot, especially during this COVID season because not been working as much as we'd like to. So that has been like, it's like constant exercise. And it's actually, okay, it's different from its theory once you're there and there's the pressure, there are a lot of things that change, but it's helped me get a farmer grasp on the story and the world of the story and becoming and belonging. I've also recently realized there's a beauty in taking music and other forms of art, like a painting and trying to, or a photo, photos also work, trying to build a world around it. Like for instance, with music, taking an album and actually like listening to the album and trying to envision what the artist is going through from song to song to song. That usually feeds me a lot. And working on myself as a photographer as a human being, a lot of introspection. I've realized we were speaking with also a director in Kenya, a new director, she's called Nyokafi Masharia. And we were talking about how directing is basically, it's a journey of self-growth because there's so many challenges that are thrown at you as a person, as a leader and how you react in that moment just makes or breaks the show or past the show, the post-production basically. So we've just been, we had that conversation and that to me is a perfect summary of directing. It's just self-growth and I've realized a lot of introspection and working on myself and working on the things that I expect the actors to bring, like working on my physicality, working on my acting, working on all these things, that gives me more confidence and more knowledge and wisdom when I go into that room. I'm constantly not ready, but constantly preparing. Yeah, so that's what feeds me when I'm not in production. I just love the fleeting moment. The idea that every moment of yours is that you are constantly preparing even when you're in the rehearsal room or even when you're walking in and the fact that you're preparing is what makes you ready. Go ahead. It's a work in progress. I'm not going to live, but yeah. We all are, we all are, we all are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we all are. Well, I'm conscious of time so I'm gonna ask you two last questions and then we can wrap it up. But my first question for you, well, not first, but my first of the last two questions, first of the last two questions for you is, tell me a bit about some of your more international work and how, or if you can speak to one specific example and tell me how, what you found different about working abroad than working here and maybe what you wish we had here or what they wish they had of us. Okay, I'll speak of my experience with Da International Theater. Yeah, it's based in Sabia. I went there last year. I think, yeah, last year. And it was an amazing experience. It was like eight years ago because correct, right? Yeah, I was like, it's been five years. It's just been a year. So the best part of it, I've always been very fascinated with movement theater because when I was an actor, we used to have conversations of this talking head place where you're just constantly seated and talking to a person. You're not using your element, your entire instrument. So when I went to Da for the, I'd call it a residency, it was amazing seeing how the director worked with the actor from the body before they got to the text. That to me was just my blowing. And I was like, oh my God. Yes, this is something I really want to take home. And it forces the performer to understand the text that they have not seen with their body before they can actually tell the story. And essentially what it does, it makes you own your body, own your instrument to an extent of no matter what is thrown at you, you know how to communicate. Whether in whatever form or manner you are constantly ready. And the amount of energy they had on that stage was mind blowing. Because I remember I had chills the whole time just watching their final performance. It was just beautiful. And because we've had those conversations with actors at home, that's the one thing I feel like our dark times in theater, which was when I feel when we were so stuck to British fastest, not as a fault of ours because we were colonized or playwrights like Kunguguiwa Diyongawa, Exiled and all that. It's because of that we were just used to, I'll sit at all, I sit, you talk, I'll talk. And it's helped actors in whatever ways that it's helped them, but that movement, that understanding of the body is what was lacking. To be honest, I've seen a lot of film actors presently and TV actors. Actually pushing themselves. Actors like Audie Roir, she's a phenomenal, brilliant actor. And Moa Jumabel and Moa Oranganga, they have been like pushing themselves to do a lot of physical acting. So yeah, so that's changing. And that experience that I got, I'm definitely, definitely ready to now impart it on any actor that I work with, like more and just see them growing that way. To be honest, what I feel like we could give is hearts. There's a certain kind of, like there's a performance by a Kenyan actor. You see it and you're just like, what was that? Like we have really brilliant actors who bring so much heart, so much commitment to our role and so much believability that it's just, it's mind blowing. And in my head, I'm thinking of Brian Ogola. Like any performance of his that you see, you cannot separate him from the character. You can definitely see this is Ogola, this is the character, but he's given so much of himself to it. And he's just one in the list of actors that we have that I'm like, if you guys, if people can out there, can just see what you do. Oh man, yeah, so that's something. I am, of course there are brilliant actors all over the world, but that is something that I can confidently boost about when it comes to our actors without a doubt, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, you've mentioned so many names, so many companies in our conversations, hopefully what our viewers will be able to do is, either comment on our posts asking for clarification or search them up and really get a sneak peek into this world that is thriving over here. My final question for you is, and you've sort of answered this, but just for our younger audiences out there, an aspiring young African director, what would you say to him or her? It gets better. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah, but land, like I mentioned before, back on yourself, like it's so interesting how when I was acting, I was so consumed and working in the craft, and I'm not saying this is typical to all actors, this is just my personal experience. When I was acting, I was so keen on, I want to master my body, I want to master my voice, I want to read more and work on my memory skills, and as a director, it's totally different. I want to work on myself, and in that way, the more I work on myself, the more I challenge myself to work on my body and to work on my voice and to work on my craft, it just translates so flawlessly, because every day I'm like, if I'm going to tell that actor to learn a new language because it's somehow enriches them as an actor, why am I not doing it myself? If I'm telling this actor to read more, why am I not doing it myself? Because integrity is so important to me, I end up just naturally doing it because I'm working on myself. So yeah, so work on yourself, yes read, yes work on your craft, but working on yourself and being self aware, helping yourself be self aware as a leader just makes everything so much better in directing, so much easier because you're not like projecting your insecurities 24 seven in that rehearsal room, you're not breaking a human being when an actor is not at their best, you're not here, you're just bringing goodness into a room and yeah, so work on yourself in short. Yeah, self awareness is lifting. I mean, you're so uplifting with everything you say, so thank you, thank you for that piece of wisdom. Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we say goodbye to our viewers today? Not really, but I really thank you for this, for having me. Well, thank you. I've had a lovely time and thank you for the conversation. It's also given me a lot to think about. Thank you so much, Anjiku, for taking time on your Monday evening, for making the time for us to share your journey. And I hope that people are able to follow you on your social media and keep abreast of your work as we move forward. If you want to share your handles with us, let us know, yeah. Yes, I'm mostly active on Instagram and my Instagram handle is at Wanjiku Moabu Ganga. I'm sure Moabu Ganga is really complex, but... It's on the screen, so people should be able to follow you. And then my Twitter handle is Wanjiku Moabu, so without the Ganga. And yeah, so those are my most active social media. Awesome. Thank you so much, Wanjiku. Thank you all so much for tuning in from around the world. I just want to wrap up by thanking our two, three sign language interpreters. Just a quick note that this is actually the first series that HowlRound is doing that has both American Sign Language and Kenyum Sign Language interpretation. So for our viewers, thank you. Thank you so much to Lucy, who was earlier our KSL interpreter, and to Raphael for your time. And of course, thank you so much to Julia for holding the fort for our American Sign Language interpretation. Thank you to the HowlRound series, and we will see you at the same time, same place, at the comfort of your cushioned couches next week with Asimwe, who will be our panelist, Asimwe Debarakawai, who's a playwright from Uganda. So we hope one to our neighboring country to chat a little bit about the arts seen over there. Thank you again, Wenjiku. Thanks, everybody. You're welcome. Bye. Bye.