 We're glad to know you're still there. It's still the breakfast on plus TV Africa right now federal governments Suspends accreditation of degree certificates from then a republic and a togo is our topic of discussion And to do that with me is dr. Peter Ogudoro education researcher. Good morning and welcome to the program sir Okay, we've been crying on this program and you have always been our guest talking about how education is not being funded and Being run in the first place in Nigeria and a lot of people are running away from Nigeria to go and get education Elsewhere in fact in the 2024 budget. It's only 7% or slightly above 7% as against the Globally accepted 25% or so that was allocated to Education in our budget now that people are going elsewhere to seek an education We found out that also is a sieve our evils Are following us to other countries now, Bene and togo have had their Certificates suspended in the Nigerian educational system What first of all does it mean to even suspend the accreditation of certificates coming from these countries? well what The phiragome has said in effect is that we are no longer very Sure that the people who claim that they Possess degrees from those universities Have knowledge and skills that match what their certificates and I present them there are presenting them to have And so since that is the case we can't trust that anybody who comes in from there to Present himself or herself as a university graduate is truly one and we cannot afford to I Trust products of such such places to do work at a level of graduates in Nigeria That's basically what they're trying to say. So what about the people who have already had their certificates accredited? Accredited and they have gone for youth service, and they are not working. Are you are they going to withdraw them? No, certainly. I do not think that is the progressive this has to apply to people who are coming With degrees from those kinds of places in the future if they make it a progressive unless We have evidence that proves that the people who possess those Advocated in tech follow appropriate procedures to get them that other than that. I do not think that it's Retrogressive was anything said about the people who may be Authentic we're really authentic people in the school They started for four years or five years as the case may be Is there anything that is going to be done to fish these people out and give them their Creditation that they need because a blanket punishment may not be the way to go or what do you think? Well, I do not also think that it's a blanket punishment. It's just as you know when it developments like this come up different media organizations reported from the angles that Make that is that are convenient for them. And so if you read the Materials coming from the desk of the relevant authorities in the federal minister of education You will understand that there are specific Cases that they are dealing with and they have set up a Committee to move over to to Ben a republic specifically to investigate into that matter And this has arisen as a result of the brilliant work done by a young man who? Went through a certain process to verify the information he had that prompted his investigative You know Journalism which we should you know, give him credit for but I want to confirm that Interestingly this university that is involved in this matter is also an accredited in the vasty in Ben a republic and so We won't be fair to the university and to all their Graduates especially those who have finished their programs or even those who are studying their currently and even the country Where there's this in a virtual place if we begin to look at? Everyone has been the same Even in our own country. We have had cases of you know all over here We have people you know pre-certificates for themselves and even from if you go into the parliament You're likely to find politicians who even from our own universities here I've picked up certificates with that necessarily are going through Appropriate, you know training and procedures to to be able to have them So and if the people involved in the investigation at religion that would treat every matter on a merit So certainly If we deal with it on the basis of throwing away the the child with a bathwater We'll be wrong but more fundamentally. I think we should start asking ourselves a question. How did we get to where we are? Is it that we are incapable of providing enough universities that will give a young people the training and certificates the need to be able to Put food on table for their families I think that the major challenge we have in our house is the fact that We haven't put in place appropriate Career management system across all levels of education in Nigeria that will help young people to know where the opportunities They are seeking especially in our country We can we can accommodate every child in Nigeria who wants to go to university without having to go outside The only challenge we have is the absence of the career management system Which can help young people identify where those opportunities are so we haven't managed the system well And that's why young people are looking outside of the country for the certificates that they think they need Okay, now that we know that it's not only a Benet and Togo thing It happens in Nigeria as well and also outside. We've heard stories coming from Toronto We've heard stories coming from even Chicago in recent past and so many other places What do you think can be done to prevent this kind of a thing, you know, because when someone comes with a certificate There should be some kind of mechanism that will fish out the fake ones and the genuine ones Well, first we have to Do public relations for education in Nigeria. There is this idea that education is scammed When young people speak like that what they are telling you is not that certificate is scammed That education is scammed in other words, you do not need to be knowledgeable and skillful to To acquire wealth and because they have seen a lot of politicians who have become very wealthy without having knowledge that matches, you know, the kind of wealth that they now possess Earlier on your show I listened to the conversation you had with the person who did in Unisopa review with you And we you were making the point, you know Amplifying what one of the news surpasses actually report that the budget of about 15 different universities It's less it's lower than what the National Assembly is going to use to run their first this year But more fundamentally really is the fact that the capital budget the federal capital budget for education this year is actually less Than what the national assembly is going to spend if we take it from that angle then we understand how serious the matter is So the money we're going to use to do capital project for all universities across, you know At the country, especially at the federal level that money is less than what national assembly is going to spend So we are not Providing the capacity we need to be able to accommodate the aspirations of young people in Nigeria who are Desirous of acquiring high-level skills that will enable them to contribute to national development And so if we're going to have this kind of situation then we are incentivizing You know people who have to look outside of our country to get to get, you know, what they are looking for I find it sad. We shouldn't be here because rather than Nigerians going to Togo and Ghana and And Ben and Cameroon to seek Education those countries should be coming here and we have seen that in the past really I did my undergraduate program at the University of Calabar and I know that in those days Many of my customers came from Cameroon. It's no longer. So Nigeria is rather than, you know We're coming people from Cameroon to come here and study We are not going to Cameroon and you know, Ben and these other places to go and study because we have mismodded the entire system here Why just in terms that do not have eternal value Okay, let's start to tabulate some of these problems that need to be addressed beyond just the budget, which is 7.0 something in a national budget for 2024 We were expecting like from 15% at least if we cannot get to the 25% that is recommended But now we have 7.0 something percent in the budget beyond the budget What are the things that need to be put in place or put back in place to make Nigeria a citadel of learning that other countries will Be coming for education tourism as well Well, we need we need to build systems We don't really have systems in place across across or across all industries And education levels in our country and that's very problematic You know, if you if you look at the report that You know prompted the band you will see that that young man who investigated into into this ugly situation had passed through national US service before and in the course of doing this investigation she He passed through it again and he did so successfully The system was built to reject anyone who has passed through the system before but he was able to Navigate his way through even in money You know a collected money from the federal pause because there's no system We don't have a robust technology that actually says no to anybody who has passed through the system before and even along the line of his investigation he will He had seen you know that had gone wrong. They were all just putting him Not knowing that he had all the evidence Because the reason why they're just putting what we got they were not They are now using a robot system to run to to run to to to to run, you know, these agencies that They did this to pretend which I think is very very problematic. So it's not just about money. We haven't got the skills If you are not involved in the system, you will keep thinking that we have Great skills in the relevant ministries and and and agencies of government. That's not true I'm a researcher in the system and I tell you that I weep when I go through the system and I see the kind of people who run Displaces we trust so much that we don't have a system in place that fishes out You know if we people that fishes are those who are undermining our system that ensures That only those who deserve to function within the system function of the system This is just about what happened in Bennett if we go and do an audit of our children Who are not studying in Nigeria in advance is you are likely to be caught at over 30% of them In the advances when they have no business being there because the system is very bad It's very porous the wrong people have been letting and the young people who are probably competent enough to be able to benefit from University education are not having access to these places and that's what is just you know Pushing them to go outside and look for where they can get what they're looking for So we must be very careful how we are you know assessing distance. So to deal with your question directly We need to build systems first and foremost But if you build a system and you don't have the capacity to run the system You run into a bigger problem because people will now take advantage of those systems to create Much bigger problems. I will have seen this in the way we run elections in our country where You even try to introduce technology and around people get into the system take hold of the technology and I use it to mess up the Entire, you know system Western Western everybody's time and national resources. So we need to train our people. We also need to invest in Getting Nigerians to believe in their country and to become more patriotic than Than we are currently Nigerians are willing to take money to sabotage the system that is built to that is being built to have them And this is not very good for us But again, the question is why is that happen is because they see all the people they see politicians waste resources and sit in places that they do not have right to belong to you know to just to sit on and So if we start from kindergarten Show good examples to our children Turn them properly and put systems in place that will ensure that the wrong people don't go down get into into into Very important places especially sensitive sectors like everything you have in education Then Nigeria will start moving forward. So we let's stop deceiving ourselves into thinking that once we provide all the money We think we need to run our education system. They're not the problems to disappear No, you have to train the people you have to run a campaign that would make Nigerians know that when the system works Well, then it's everybody everybody everybody benefits and when the system fails Everybody loses even when as an individual you make money off the nation You know, you can only enjoy that money for a short while when everything begins to crumble you just got at everybody's at risk So we need to invest in these areas now when you talk about building systems and Using the right system and all that. I just couldn't understand much Is it a problem of the manpower or the problem of technology or what problem because for instance If the NYSC is built in such a way that it will reject people who have passed through it already and it couldn't reject this man Something like that happens in let's say the corporate affairs commission You cannot choose a name that has been chosen before So if that can be done for the corporate affairs commission, why cannot it's not like it's a an alien technology Why is it so difficult to have it in every aspect of our economy every aspect of our national life to have this Things work. Yeah This is an open secret. You know what the right answer is and we always Talk about having Run pegs in the square pegs in round holes in our country So when you have the wrong people money sensitive desks in In our country, then this is the kind of situation you find yourself in so we haven't got the right manpower In a lot of significant places and in some places too We have got the people have the skills there because they are not paid well the sabotage a system in order to get what they think they deserve so So it's a hydra headed problem. It's a bit complicated Because sometimes the right people who have the skills don't do the right things because you are not motivating them Well, you find this even in the in our security apparatus if you talk to that very policeman It's likely to tell you that if they if they want to deal with for one nice seminar candy They will shut it down. It won't happen again But the reason why these things flourish is because you don't pay the average policeman Well, and you expect him, you know, somebody who pay Let's say 70,000 era you ask him to get just a thief who has Two billion around his account and with little or nothing to do with it So he brings out only one percent of that money He gives it to the policeman the police man calculates a salary over a period of five years He discovered what we collect from this guy in Just, you know, one minute where we pay him for more than 10 years. So he collects it So we need to get more More more realistic We need to pay people well and then keep upgrading their skills because when it comes to technology Which these guys are trying to make me in the rubbish. What happens is that technology keeps getting updated We don't correct most of the technology we only buy them and borrow them So we need to keep sending our people on training to learn how to ensure that The tips the evil people don't keep suppotaging these systems, you know, successfully That's what do you know people do you have you you have your phones You have different apps on your phone and you know that if you know your laptop And you know that regularly you have to update them for you to remain secure So if you don't keep updating them, you keep running into problem So in many of these places where we have, you know, very important objectives, you know To achieve what is happening is that we would put we buy a technology from America or Germany And we don't keep maintaining it. We don't keep, you know, upgrading our skills to be able to run You know, those systems are property. That's what I think is is the problem that we're facing I'm involved in the system. I work with the people who Run these places. Sometimes when I have sit and I have conversations with them, I feel very discouraged That that is where very disappointed that that is where we are and we need to do something very urgently about it Well, but it's an unfortunate that in Nigeria there are two problems One problem is that we place so much importance on the degrees And it feels as if if you don't have a degree you are a second-class citizen And so people are desperate to get these degrees By any means and the second thing is you just pointed out that we need to train and retrain people Training seems to be something that is no longer in our vocabulary I used to know that people were employed on those days and then you're training You get training on the job and they keep training you now They are expecting you to be 20 years old With seven years experience and fresh from the university And we don't even have holiday jobs vacation jobs that will give people experience So how are we going to achieve this? It's it's scary to me It's it seems as if it's something that is not realizable. Is there a format we need to use? Yeah, our problem our our situation is not hopeless But it's really very difficult because we haven't got the right thinkers in very um in in high places We need policy formulators who understand that this is this is where we are and confront this reality That we haven't got the right people in the right places and that we haven't also put the right systems in place As we speak The evidence I have tells me that we haven't got the right thinkers in these sensitive, you know areas in our country And so if you want to move Nigeria forward, the president has to recognize that the way to make appointment is not to give those sensitive Desks to people who haven't got the right skills, you know, move around Make a list of the people who are for example ministers in the current dispensation and you discover that many of them are Having portfolios that they didn't turn for and that's very unfortunate a country that is Very hungry for development is the country that should emphasize Baritocracy at least, you know for once and but we haven't got that yet and so long as that remains our circumstance then We'll continue to complain and until the president recognizes that we need to put the right people in the right places and For for that long we will continue to live with these challenges. Okay. I've asked you this question before in a Our interaction not today But there's this talk about having more universities here for the benefit of those who could not Join us on the day we had that show there's this talk about having more universities in Nigeria And some people are thinking that is one of the solutions to our educational problems. What's your response to that? No certainly. I did tell you that I was fortunate As a doctoral researcher, you know to have made that the focus of my investigation and the verdict that came out of My research is that we don't need more universities. We have enough all we need to do is to Provide the right capacity to the Universes we already have in place and give them the infrastructure they need and then put a career management system in place I will advertise The opportunities we have in those places to to young children so that they recognize where to go When what they want is to go to university and receive good education at the moment. We We are duplicating The things that are already in place and that's very unfortunate for us let us alone You know cannot cover that I tell you if we use the resources within let us. Well, it cannot cover that Over 25 percent of young people in this country who want to go to university and benefit from it And so we have to recognize we also do not have to train in conventional ways Really, there's national opening university. For example, if that system is managed well Why why do you want to go to better republic to get the university degree? National opening university is structured to accommodate You know people who want to work and money while going to school. We have that in england That's an international opening university in england is the university that has the largest number of students in that country We have one in that country but it's not being well managed and that's why Young people are still insisting that they have to go and sit in one place for four years You know not any money for that duration of time and that's very very unfortunate for us Now many colleges of education across Nigeria now have relationships with universities who The degree programs that they're on meaning that you can actually attend a college of education But finish from there after four years with a university degree moderated by the university of Lagos by the Amadu Bello, but unfortunately the African and genuine child is not aware of this So when everybody finishes, they all they are all heading towards It shouldn't be so, you know within these legos at Acoca alone there's federal college of education technical at Acoca That runs the group programs that are moderated by you know collaborating universities that are federal universities in this country And several colleges of education within Lagos and outside Lagos across the country are providing similar opportunities Unfortunately, the every young child does not know so because we are not creating awareness regarding these opportunities people keep looking towards Ghana And interestingly if you do my kind of work as a as an educational researcher, you will understand That the Ghana you are going to they've been a republic you are going to they don't necessarily have better They are not going to provide you better universal education compared to what university of you know Abad or Unilag or Amadu Bello or Soka can provide you even or Calaba or University of George It's just lack of knowledge. So we don't need to keep wasting our time And I'm putting resources where we shouldn't be putting them, you know creating more universities I think that not in the versus commission is make is committing a great error and misleading Um, our government into thinking that the way to move forward in terms of solving the problem University education is to create more universities. That's absolutely untrue And I'm surprised and hope that somebody is going to Insist anytime soon that this is not the way to go Okay, uh before we wrap up let let me just ask you this If you were the education minister with a sum of Just above seven Uh billion Oh not seven million. Sorry Seven percent of the the budget with that kind of money that is budgeted for Education, what will be your lowest hanging fruits that you would want to tackle in 2024? I will I would train I would train teachers first Once you get teachers trained across board from kindergarten to university when I say teachers here I'm using teachers as a generic word that you know captures everyone who has the responsibility to Help children and young people to acquire the knowledge skills and values they need to be able to play their roles in society Effectively, so I'm going to put my money into training teachers so that they can produce the thinkers we need To be able to solve the problems that that that confront us And so infrastructure will come next, you know Give those teachers after you have trained in the right tools to do their job And then pay them well is very important that we pay teachers well across all levels of the education system So that they can stay here and work with us as as governments across the country to give our children the Orientation the need and of course the the the skills the knowledge and values they they should have today to be able to Compute globally and and and and and and and get all the opportunities They need to be able to make a difference in their country and contribute to The peace and progress of the world we live in so so train your teachers Pay them well Provide them the infrastructure they need and you see Nigeria begin to flourish other countries We we start looking in this direction to come and you know receive good quality education rather than the current situation where Our people are heading outside to look forward. They shouldn't be heading outside for okay I would like to thank you. Dr. Peter Ogudoro for coming on the show this morning. It's always very enlightening when we have you on the show. Thank you so much We've been talking to dr. Peter Ogudoro education researcher on the show. We were looking at the suspension of certificates from banner republic and also togo following a report by a covet journalist who went Got his his certificate within weeks And also got into nysc to serve his country for a second time having had that experience After finishing school in nigerian university and that has led to this we do hope that the people who generally went to these schools and Finished will have the opportunity to do what they need to do and become what they Want to become or what the set out to become That all the bad eggs were are not going to give them such a bad name that they cannot achieve what they wanted to achieve Whatever that Research will come out with that committee will come out with and all that let it be very transparent enough and let it be for the benefit of nigeria And nigerians would like to also call on all the ministers whoever has been given An opportunity to serve this country in whatever capacity should do. They are very best to make sure that nigeria Doesn't continue to be analog doesn't continue to be corrupt and all that we're seeing what is happening In passport issuance the minister has said that it shouldn't take more than a few days to get your passport And now everything will be automated You can just go to the internet to your computer and then Apply for a passport and you have it within weeks and he's he made a statement. He asked the question other people Do they not have sense people working in the passport office that they will tell for instance a married woman To live where they are maybe enugu or legos or wherever in nigeria To have to go to abuja just for a change of name And we've been asking ourselves this question all the things that happen Verification exercise you have to carry someone who is on the stretcher who is dying to come for verification all the time You do these things that could be done on the internet and we're asking ourselves Are we are we playing in this country? So kudos to the minister who is doing this and we will keep calling their names as they are doing well And we'll also be calling the names of those people who are not doing well like right now Let's just watch them like shawyinka said he is giving one year for this administration to perform Before he begins to call them out if they do not perform, but Nigerians cannot wait for a year So right now we've entered 2024 Let's see how the first quarter of 2024 will be and the second quarter the third quarter And then the fourth quarter and we continue to assess all of them The president has said is either you perform or you get fired Let's see how many people will be fired for non-performance and how many people will be given the awards for performances Well, it's been a wonderful time being with you this morning We do hope that you too had a wonderful time being with us It's already the third day in the new year So it's still good to say happy new year to you. We hope that 2024 will be very awesome My name is nyam gul at gaijif. Let's come back tomorrow for more Bye for now