 For those of you who don't know me, my name is Cindy Bank and I'm the Associate Director of the Program in Practical Policy Engagement and my colleague, Maryam McGarran, is on with me. And it's just such a great pleasure for me to welcome Eugene, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I think I've met you when you were maybe a first a student and I mean he's just had such an incredible few years since while he was a student and since going to DC that I thought it would be really fun to chat with him and hear about his journey. I do expect that we'll probably have some additional folks join as this is going on, but let's we're going to hear from Eugene and then I really hope that students and others that are on will, you know, ask questions we want this to be a dialogue. He's a very friendly person. If you're really lucky he'll show you pictures of those kids who are just beyond adorable but it becomes a little personal but anyhow, Eugene, thank you. Of course, thank you so much. And it's so nice to see folks and obviously as I was saying earlier it's always so great to see Cindy. She was, I think I did we did meet when I was an undergrad and then she was out in DC was always a friendly face and I tried to go to as many of the Michigan and DC functions as I possibly could, just because it was always nice to get a chance to to see her and catch up. And, you know, I didn't want to don't have too much to say up top, I think, wanted to have some time for questions but I think just first of all just really excited and grateful that Cindy extended the invitation for me to come speak. And I'm looking forward to the conversation. And, you know, part of the reason I'm excited, as I mentioned just because of knowing Cindy for so long now, but you know honestly I'll do anything for my alma mater. I was born in Ann Arbor, I was raised in Ann Arbor. I, Michigan was the only school I applied to for undergrad, I named my dog blue. So I just as as fanatical as they get. The reason I'm excited is for the students for where you are in your journey. There's just so much opportunity ahead for you. So many options to consider experiences to be had and especially for those you know you're in the school of public policy now but if you're into it it's such an exciting and important thing it's, you know, I said this before to some, you know, folks I'm going to talk to you and it's just a rare thing to get to work with people who you share a passion with who you share moral and ethical north stars and bring different skills and talents and backgrounds to that shared mission and I miss it a lot. And the friendships I made during my time in politics remain my strongest today. I met my wife on the Obama campaign, my best man in my wedding set kitty corner for my cubicle on that campaign. And a bunch of my friends from the away campaign we all had kids about the same age and we just signed up to hang out at the same pool this summer it's, it's, you know, the friendships from the time and politics and in the government really are like a second family. So the students look, you know, I'm, I'm relatively old, like the music from my high school and college days are now what's played on classic rock stations and sampled on today's song so I'm that kind of old. And I'm also not so far removed from a lot of the choices that you're facing and will be facing and so I wanted to, again, leave as much time as possible for any questions or conversations and it could really be about anything it could be about career options and having about that, you know, logistical things like how to move to new cities without ever visiting them before, which is something I've had to do a couple of times my career, who I think have the best wings and Ann Arbor I have strong opinions about that. And I'm pleased from my time, any one of my stops really anything I just love to, and that just means anyone, you know, happy to take questions and I think just a couple of thoughts though before I started that that dialogue and the first, I just want to share a couple of thoughts of just sort of lessons and things that I wish I had known more or had a kind of finer point on when I was in undergrad in those first couple of years afterwards which is the most important thing is and what I already alluded to is that working is for a purpose to be a part of an engine of change in whatever small way, especially which will be small if you're when you're 2324 25 in a workplace is a just a really rare and special thing. So one kind of important lesson that I've learned is the importance of relationships and how relationships matter professionally and not in, like a gross transactional networking way, which I think is a lot of time when relationships start to, you know, be discussed, especially when you're thinking of getting started on a career path but what I mean by relationships is how you build trust with the people that you do work with or you do interact with because, you know, your will unquestionably help you thrive in the jobs once you get them, but the getting it part and navigating those early days in a new job can be a bit of a jungle and because part one thing I've seen again and again and again whether it was on campaigns or employment or in the private sector is that senior people like the ones who are doing the hiring and the staffing, they just look first toward those who they've already seen an action or worked with people who they know they can trust to handle projects on their own, who they know are reliable, who they who will work quickly and work hard and ask good questions. It's just a sort of human nature you it's almost like people look for their security blanket at work and so you know that's where those relationships, especially when you're early in your career, developing those building those every single one of the jobs I've had came because somebody I had worked with previously was in that organization and tried to bring me on the only time my first job out of college was working for Amy Klobuchar Senate campaign in Minnesota in 2006. And that was the first one where that was the only one where I just sent my resume to like 1000 different places and hope somebody would email me back and someone did. And, but other than that it's been there's been people who either, you know, an Obama campaign I wanted to work there but I knew, you know, my bosses from the oh six campaign, or working for Obama starting in January February of 2007. And that helped me in that job, you know, getting to the White House and you know even going from the campaign to the transition to the White House, each one of those sort of friction points they were a lot of my friends and colleagues who didn't get a job right away or at all with the with the transition and certainly not get a job at the White House right away, and scores more who had to wait for months and months before they got a job at one of the agencies, if they got one. You know, for each one of the people who I had worked with and those relationships that I had built helped me in each one of those ways and where I am now in the private sector, been at the same place now for about seven years. And one of my colleagues that I worked with he was our kind of our labor guy for the Obama campaign. He's the one who started working there a year and a half before I did and he got me to come join him because he liked the work and the people. So, those relationships you never know where they're going to go but that's, it's so important in the professional world I found and, you know, again, for both this part of what I'm saying and when we get into questions that you know there's the caveat that I had a different path than most of you if for no other reason then this program especially the undergraduate just did not exist when I was an undergraduate. But even a lot of the senior policy folks that I know now didn't have a linear line from undergraduate or their master's programs to what they're doing today. You know one of my best friends is the assistant secretary for policy at the Department of Transportation. And he's been a staff assistant he was a press secretary for this Senate campaign in North Carolina he's been a campaign manager so there's so many different routes in politics and in the policy world and in public service so you know there's that's one of the relationships can be helpful, because again there's no I know so many people who their careers are just, it's, it looks all over the map but it's got a kind of a North Star that helps guide and guide it. And I think to that end, you know one of the things that to help build those relationships. And what's worked with for me and I've seen a recipe that's worked for a lot of people is for that first job, you know out of college or after undergraduate, you know, taking a job that even if it doesn't necessarily even seem necessarily like the exact job you want or may not be the exact sort of level or seniority that you're interested in. It's an opportunity to start building those relationships improving yourself and you know I started in Chicago in 2007 on the Obama campaign as a staff assistant, and then 11 months later, I was on the road and on the plane with Obama as the political aid that came in and part of that was people knew I was reliable part of that was I'd been around in that department long enough to know the sort of strategic priorities. And part of it was like people just felt like I wouldn't be too weird around Obama and so they figured it was worth the risk to see if I could kind of work the chemistry. All right, and I think I, you know, so you never there's what I've seen in public service and careers that things move quickly. They're not linear. And so, which leads me, I think that my final point here is that every single one of those experiences I've had professionally helped me grow both personally but professionally and even as disparate as they have been so, you know, I ran for city council. While I was an undergrad before my senior year and knew nothing. I didn't know how to do anything, how to run a campaign, how to campaign, how to deal with any of the things that came up on a campaign and just learned a lot just by doing it. I learned a lot as a field organizer in Minnesota in 06 working for Klobuchar. You know, again that job was, it's a lot of really hard grunt work. And you're the, again, frontline of voter contact and trying to recruit volunteers for an off cycle Senate campaign is not always the easiest thing but I learned a lot there and then I learned a lot. I worked at the White House, a lot of my job was working with the party committees of the DSCC the DCCC the DGA and the DNC in the ramp up to 2010 as everything from candidate recruitment and message development for the candidates to tiering competitive races so the white we could start making decisions on resource allocation, and all that in the ramp up to just an overwhelming butt kicking where we lost like every single one of the seats that were up that year and you know some of you may have heard the term a wave election before, and living through one is terrible. But again I learned a lot through that so I think just before I turn to if anyone has any questions I think just a quick rundown of what I've done in case it inspires a topic for conversation is, as I said I ran for city councils and undergrad worked for Clobuchar, worked for Obama in various capacities from 2007 to through 2013. And since then I've been in the private sector. Primarily we advise CEOs who are navigating something that's inspiring them to look for outside help and that's where my firm comes in that's what I do for a living is advising CEOs on any number of issues that they're dealing with and so with that I'd love to take any questions or that you might have. It was just great Eugene, and I think I mean you touched on a number of topics I often mentioned, when I speak with students is one follow your passion. Yeah. Because we spent a lot of time at work, and also just the importance of, you know, the relationships. Yeah. So, I mean, Eugene and I don't have a lot of contact over the years but it's like, you know, if I were to see an email from him or it's like, oh, I'm going to open this. Yeah. Right away. Yeah, how important and I would also say never underestimate the Michigan connections. Blood runs blue. And people, especially in DC, who have all been through what every graduates going through looking for a job, they've been in your spot. So, and very willing to help. So I want actually I'm going to ask the first question because I was just like, just last week I think doesn't do that article about they happen to mention about your, they mentioned you in the Michigan daily about the city council race. And it wasn't until I read that article that I realized how the cities, how it split up, so that there's no one seat that represents that's heavily students, but I mean you lost by like 75 votes, or something I mean it was not many. No, credible. Yeah. You know, and yes, so that was yeah I lost. I think it was somewhere between 70 and 90 somewhere in that range. It was close. The, it was an interesting experience because, you know, I, I was trying to figure out that summer I had done the Michigan public service internship program the summer before, which was one of the more formative that I've ever had at a great time at that point I was certain I was going to go to law school so I entered at the US Attorney's office here in DC. But it was an incredible learning experience and then as my junior year was going on I was trying to think through what would be the next sort of, I had this interest in politics, and wanted to learn more and always sort of follow the in our city council, and this various forms of dysfunction and the sort of contentious town and gown relationship from time to time. And I thought what better way of learning more and taking this next summer and maybe beyond than to just do it, and to, you know, I have, I knew I had some benefits than other students who had run in the past. And really just that I had grown up in Ann Arbor, and that I also didn't have a very radical platform I wasn't, you know, trying to. I just wanted to have a student voice on the council and to, you know, take the job seriously and it was an interesting introduction because actually two of the sitting council members said I pulled my petitions, you have to get a certain number of signatures on the ballot. So I pulled the signatures the next day to the city council members asked me to take me out for coffee, and at that coffee, they heavily discouraged me from running because my there's someone already in the primary. And he had been to the war to which is where I ran is had been, you know, that's where Jane Lum is from, and it had been the sort of last most last of the more conservative wards in Ann Arbor. And so they recruited a guy who had run for mayor as Republican the previous cycle to come be a Democrat and run for city council, hoping that, you know, he would have an advantage there. So they're discouraging me from running and in fact even went so far as to say you don't want you to jeopardize your future and the Democratic Party by, you know, and so I thought that was like a rude introduction to, you know, the city politics but, you know, I had, I would luckily because of Michigan I had a mentor Marvin Krisloff with the time was the general council and I had taken a class with him that was an incredible class and he had set me up with. He had a law student who had written a big paper about student disenfranchisement in Ann Arbor to help help me learn what to do he had worked on an AG's race back home in New York previously so he knew something whereas I knew nothing. And so it was an incredible experience. And I think I had so that I think you shared that article with me the history of the how the lines are drawn I've heard different stories of how it came to be. The way I'd heard it as at one point Ann Arbor did have a sort of a downtown ward that did have I think the last student so the way I heard it was that the last student who had been on council at that point had come from that district. Back in the, I think it was 60s or early 70s and at that point, they, after that they redrew the maps. So basically the center point was on the union. So that all the students would then be dispersed through the five wards. And, you know, I tried at one point to doorknock in the student areas of war two and I was campaigning but it's, it's an August fourth primary date. So, no one's there. Right. And if they're there, they certainly they're either just moved in, or they're just moving out, and they also didn't have any sort of, you know, voter registration at that address so you know the precinct that has like Mark Lee and those houses over there on on forest in that area that's still in the war. You know I think two people voted from that whole precinct. So I had to rely completely on the on the neighborhood so yeah it was, there are some structural issues and one of the things that I had ran on was trying to move the city to, at that point to even a nonpartisan election so we could do away with the primary again shades of blue are going to be who runs for those seats anyway, and all that early primary was doing was making it so that students had no vote and who the city council member was ultimately going to be Very interesting, very interesting and luckily those two council people were wrong about you. Yeah, and one of them was a world in scandal just a few years later. Okay, I've got lots of questions but who else questions. My decision usually a shy group. Oh, okay, Ellie. Please ask your question. Sure. Hi Eugene thank you so much for your time I'm a MPP student, and I actually lived in DC for four years before I left in our room but um, but I was under a different administration. A little bit different. I'm just really curious, looking into your background like what your day to day was sort of like in the Obama administration it sounds very wide ranging and I'm sure it's probably not like the same every day but it's just your position sounded so fascinating so I was just curious like, what was it like day to day and what specific kinds of things were you involved in during the during time there. That's a great question and I'll try not to go too long, because I can talk about that time of my life forever. So, I was lucky to my point about relationships I was lucky that they basically carved a role for me, because one of the things that was very surprising for all of us who had come from the political world and like the campaign side of is how institutionalized and rigid government structures are now I'll also as a quick aside. Now that I've been in the private sector for seven years and primarily working with Fortune 100 companies anyone who thinks that the private sector is more efficient than government is delusional. I've never encountered the sort of bureaucracies at these companies as I've so one of my clients is, you know, is one of the major beverage soda makers. You can tell how long it's been since I've been in Michigan that I use the word soda there I've been training when I refer to it around the house I do use pops I don't want my kids to know the right way of referring to it but the. I was ahead of working with them on one of their major products and I had a proposal. So I started with my media client team, and then I got kicked up to the Vice President, marketing stills for this company North America, then brought in the marketing sparkling North America. Once they gave me feedback on a back I then had to go to the Vice President, marketing still and global, and then the after that stopped the VP marketing sparkling global, then back into the North America realm to start going up to the COO, who then kick me back. So, again, I was like this was my first year after being in government like this is no better than this makes hard look like a nimble start up this is incredible so. So when I started at the White House I had sort of a number of different buckets that I got to work in because they kind of created a role out of the chiefs of staff's office for me where I was primarily working out of the, you know, working with the political affairs team so I would say about 40 50% of my job was working with the party committees because there was a there, the Hatch Act, you know has the prohibition on political activity from government employees. But at the same time, there's one president, and that president does both official duties as president but is also the head of the party and it's one person. So they have to, there is some wiggle room in the law to be able to support the president on their political activities. And so that was sort of where I worked and then ultimately, and we had just at the time the DOJ was working on the special counsel when rules mattered but the special counsel is working on clear guidelines for what the political affairs team can do, given that the Bush administration, especially Karl Rove ran through a number of the previously acceptable guardrails on what the Hatch Act permitted federal employees to do. But we, so that was probably about 40 50% of my job was working with the party committees. And then about a quarter of my job was just kind of, I call this special situations, things that were sort of sensitive in nature that cut across different lines here, like a Pete Rouse or a machine, Jim Messina or our chief of staff round man will just ask me for, they would give me here's a problem. I don't know how to fix it. And it needs to be helped like you need to do it discreetly. So, here. So I that was about a quarter that was really interesting and you know one of my very very dear friends, who is now a, you know, chief legal counsel for one of the largest companies in America but at the time was. I've heard it all of our Supreme Court nominees through their process but she was in the Council's office she was my go to lawyer. And whenever it got to a point where I when I called her when I got tasked with one of these things. Her first. She would pick up the shoot see my extension and say, What kind of shady blank. Are you getting me into today. So that was about a quarter of my job, and then the, the rest of my job was sort of just overall stakeholder engagement as we tried to build support so you know, you know, whether it's for the budget or especially around, you know, when we're trying to get the formal care act passed, you know, every day, legislative affairs team would have a list of the and then we would work with the chief of staff's office to figure out how are we going to, what was going to be the sort of engagement strategy for each one of these members to try to get them from a maybe to a yes and who do they have locally that we can try to get their support who they can then to their, you know, and, you know, Rahm Emanuel was a very controversial figure but I will say he was the right chief of staff given the legislative priorities we had because watching him in those meetings was incredible you would, you know, because he knew he knew every one of those members so we'd sit down with that list of maybe and it would be this member and then he would say, Oh, he listens to the pastor at this church on this street. I'll call him or then the next member is, Oh, this person there went to school with the VP of this bank that's in that district, Bill is best friends with him I'll call bill like it was just that level of detail and all we just have to do is just execute these ideas in those meetings so but you know the party committee one was the one that I spent the most time within those days were just, you know, I'd get to the office probably about eight, I was leaving around, probably nine or 10, usually. And every day there was no set rhythms to the day it was just incoming sort of all day long, and I loved it so that was what I did sort of through the midterms and then after the midterms as we started gearing up for the real project, we moved the political department to the DNC for a host of reasons, most of them optics. But we, a few of us stayed behind to be a sort of shadow political unit and so, and at that point the OLC opinion of what political activity was allowed, had come out so they made, they kept a few of us behind, you know, Council's just designated about six of us as allowed to interact with the reelection campaign and I was there so just traveling with the President from stop to stop to be able to bridge the gap between what we needed to do from an official duties perspective and what we needed to do from the political side. That was great. Again, my friendships, my marriage at one point my wife and I were working across the hallway from each other at the EOB. She was a vetting attorney and so, you know, everything came from from that period of time. It was an incredible dynamic place to work. And I have to say that just also I know the Obama White House had such strict ethics guidelines. Because I had friends who worked there and you know, one young friend, you know, Nick Colvin. Yeah. Occasionally Nick and I would get together for lunch and let me buy you lunch said no I can't, you know, and it, but we had an established relationship but yeah, but still it's just like okay, no, not a problem. Yeah, Caesar's Web was supposed to be above reproach which obviously was very much handled the same way in the 45th and then President administration but it was. Yeah, it was, you know, even then we I think still fell short sometimes of what we aspire to do and I know President Biden's their ethical their ethics guidelines are even stricter than what we had in the Obama administration so they're really trying to curb that revolving door even more. That's incredible. I was thinking about you talked a little bit about your. Yeah, I mean I've talked a lot about being on campaign and through my experience of some sometimes you know sometimes campaign workers make great policy workers. Sometimes they don't. And there's, you know, there is, while politics gets involved with policy, it's a very different. Yeah, type of work. Do you have anything I mean a lot of our students do end up on political campaigns which is a great way to get their foot in the door. Yeah, absolutely. Any advice on. And you know there's always room, especially for a statewide or a federal campaign for there's there always will be a policy team on the campaign to me I think policy and communications are the places that transfer the easiest from the campaign to governing. And so they seem to, you know, because those jobs exist in both places, and because those sort of rhythms of how do you sell a piece of legislation, how do you craft it, or a policy. That is sort of you're in the ideation stage on the campaign and you have to run on it and then you try to action it once in office regardless of the, you know, which office it is so I always feel like that's a good path for folks who are in a policy, like in the policy and try to and those are tough to get. And I think our policy team on the Obama campaign there was I think like four or five full time staffers. That was it and then the rest was a network of policy experts that they'd broken up by subject areas that they would call on to help you know they were really if anything helping facilitate the conversations and merging what they were hearing with for the values of candidate, you know, at the time Senator Obama, and enforcing a sort of what the campaign platform was from that and then I think you know, depends on the candidate, in some cases right I mean President Obama was intimately involved with the policy process on the campaign side. You know, obviously once in office he kept very close eye on the domestic policy council national you know the constellation of policy teams that exist at the, at the White House so we're run by Wolverines. Yes. Yes. So there was a heavy Wolverine influence, especially that first term. Right. But, you know, and so that is, and so I think there's that is, I think, but to your point there's it this the rhythms are a little different. But generally, the skills, especially on the if you can get one of those communications and policy jobs those skills transfer from the campaigning world to the governing side pretty well. And what about transferring your policy government experience to the private. After now. So, you know, that has been interesting and most of it is just sort of on a, you know, most of what I do is on a communications perspective, and helping companies and my clients figure out better messaging and or sort of narratives about, you know, part of what I want, part of why I wanted to do this and go into the private sector in the first place and why I chose to nail was, I felt like there's a whole vocabulary of in the private I did not know about shareholder value and sort of what are priorities for investors and, you know, that whole apparatus which really drives so much of the economic picture quarter over quarter felt very foreign to me. And I felt like also very important just piece of just our day to day how decisions are made so I wanted to learn more about that and I think, you know, the sort of concepts of how to communicate how to manage a crisis or an issue. Those were directly related, you know, one to one. And then a lot of it has just really learning the vocabulary of what of the private sector and sort of how decisions get made and what what are the sort of key priorities of different executive teams. And it can be all across the board sometimes, you know, the companies we advise are very purpose and values focused and those make it easier to give them good advice sometimes they're, you know, usually, it's more. The CEOs have aligned values, but they are very risk averse about, you know, they've spent their career as an engineer or as a chemist or whatever it is that got them from where they started to being the CEO of that company. They're very risk averse and I think, you know, especially the last few years and especially two years ago, when you know black lives matter and social justice became something that companies just really had to have a position on it and if for no other reason than if you ever wanted to have a young person work for your company ever again, but just practically for, you know, they're given their influence in the marketplace. And that where it was where I actually it was very, it was my previous experience and my work experience came in very valuable there because frankly I could speak Democrat, which was something that any number of our clients needed help understanding. Where was they understood the risk if you know if they went, if you know if they spoke out, but they what they didn't understand was what was the opportunity and the risk from the other side of the ledger from folks who were expecting more from the companies versus expecting less. Great. Did that answer your question Gail. So Gail works with all of our BA students she's the career person for afterwards so yeah. I said you were in DC. I want to know what you were doing there. Yeah, going back. Yeah, yeah I think so so I worked for almost four years for the US soccer foundation. Not related to the Federation, which is to the Failed today it's women so. But I, but Jim Messina was actually on our board. So we're really cool. Yeah, he's a really great guy. Um, but I was curious you mentioned the 2010 midterms and I was wondering like, because obviously you're, you were involved in messaging a lot and in currently in your career also like how did that change. And the loss of so many Democratic seats in in the house. How did that change the way that you did your job like after, because I was obviously pretty. I mean, it was largely due to the, to the Affordable Care Act but like the, but how did that change sort of the way that you interacted with the president and how you're just generally how your work changed after the midterms then. You weren't that part of my job that was about building stakeholder support for legislative agenda sort of went away, because there wasn't a legislative agenda at that point you know at that point. It was the final sprint for the above for the Affordable Care Act so, you know, right off the heels of that just miserable work experience in terms of just the outcome. They had the special election for Senator Kennedy seat in Massachusetts that January, where Martha Coakley ran the worst came like literally a textbook definition of a terrible campaign. I still, there were so we started sounding the alarm bells internally in early January, and then we finally got the powers that be in the White House to be like, Oh yeah, this is like a problem. And then it got to a point that there was what the week that we thought we were like we, this is a problem. So then we were like we need to get in touch with her we again just with a campaign manager for a week we couldn't get in touch with the attorney general because she was on vacation three weeks before her special election she took a week off the trail and could not be reached. She just went completely out of pocket and I'm a big believer in self care, but maybe not then when the balance of the United States Senate rests on your shoulders. And then she comes back from vacation and then she gave maybe the most almost comically wrong thing to say. So, Scott Brown was a very good retail politician, and was going everywhere. And he had just done a thing where he stood in front of Fenway Park, and with shaking hands and handing out donuts and doing the, you know, he was running a really strong retail campaign. And they were, and, you know, Martha Coakley was doing one, maybe two events a day. She was ending her day by 5pm every day, and we're like this is not how you win a statewide race. And then she's getting really snippy about all the, all of this and what we're asking her to do and, and then reporters were asking about her light campaign schedule and she said, What do you expect me to do stand outside and the cold outside Fenway talking to voters. And we're like, Yeah, it's actually exactly what the expectation is that you would be doing and why would you find a way to insult the one biggest cultural landmark that cuts across party in your state. So anyway, so that was, that was hard. And that was honestly one of the few times, you know, I would say one of the things about President Obama that was incredible was, and Mrs Obama to was they never, ever yelled at their staff, which isn't necessarily commonplace in offices in DC, never raised a voice. Obama's way of making you feel the weight of your mistakes wasn't was not through temper, but his voice would get very quiet, you would get very close. And then he would ask sort of a series of questions like did you consider this. Did you think about that. Did you think through this thing sort of sort of a Socratic method basically for your mistake. And it was terrible because obviously no I hadn't thought about these things because otherwise I wouldn't have done it that way. But the one time the closest you ever got to mad was the day after we lost that Massachusetts special election. He was just like do I have to do everything. I can't even trust you guys to win us race in Massachusetts. So that you know the legislative agenda became less of a priority for me, but at that point I was already starting to turn attention toward the reelect anyway. So that was just the sort of natural. My job was shifting sort of independently of what we're trying to get done legislatively. So, I mean we're heading into a mid year election. It's going to be bad. It's just hard I mean, you know the elections we've seen. So Virginia and New Jersey were good bellwethers for us in 09. We did nominate the world's worst candidate for its group for for governor in 2009 state center credits he somehow came out of that primary and he was completely not ready for prime time. But, you know, Christie won big in New Jersey that that cycle. He won big in Virginia that cycle and it sort of was a preview of a very inspired Republican electorate which is what I think what we saw this past year and then, you know, the big warning signs in 2010 started coming in in the fall where, there are a list of the most vulnerable Democrats and returning steer party resources toward them that list kept expanding bigger and bigger and then we started seeing polling in late September October for six seven term incumbents who hadn't faced a real race since the second race, and they were at like 37 38 39% approval, and because they hadn't ever run a competitive race before, they had like $15,000 cash on hand. So, we were like, Oh no, like every new poll like I remember it was just like oh no we're going to lose, like if this is happening to the seven term incumbents like we're going to lose everything. And then we lost everything. So, it's just hard the part it's just hard, especially given the dynamics I think it's going to be hard. It's gonna be a hard map, the cycle for us. Well, and I mean we're again focusing a lot of attention on campus through some programs on voter registration. Yeah, we've actually worked on a number of programs very close with the group. We're called that did the redistricting here so it's been very interesting to learn more about those processes here and of course being a student based voting and being able to do same same day we're just going to do when you ran and huge difference and And then also you have a really deep Democratic bench statewide, which is not something we had in 2010. When we were running right so it was that was the opens. That was grand home had been term limited out so as an open seat. And so it was a very different environment in Michigan versus having, you know, such a strong and impressive governor and Attorney General and Secretary of State to help inspire folks in the state we just didn't have that in 2010. I'll leave you have more questions that I want to know you can ask whatever you want. Um, I mean I'm taking a actually just finished class it was half semester on health care forum in the US and obviously you were probably quite involved with that, given it was in the first half of the Obama administration. And I think going back to the, the, the 2010 midterms and stuff like the good the death panels and the really killed a lot of Democratic campaigns, even if they were reelection campaigns. Even though it wasn't true. Yeah, but yeah so I just think I've been deep in the affordable care act for the last, the last, I don't know, seven weeks eight weeks so yeah that's it's just really interesting to hear your your perspective on, especially when you mentioned the ACA it was that was very cool. So, you know, and honestly that hold that it was not a policy debate it was trying to win. What could we get Max Bacchus to agree to that is essentially what it all became about. And it was infuriating, and then Joe Lieberman came in at the 11th hour to make things even worse. And boy that was real frustrating. One of the things that the, the rest of the party was upset that wasn't in the bill it's not like we didn't want them in the bill is Max Bacchus had drawn some clear lines foolishly and naively thinking that this sort of cobble together compromise would be able to win one or two votes from his Republican colleagues and even the tea party and that also seems a little quaint to me compared to some of the, what's happening right now, but yeah, it was, it's interesting to hear. I love to hear anything else you learn from that class because it just sounds, you know, it was such a living it you know you don't get a chance to like think about it, you're just kind of going from fire drill to fire drill about it. And the other thing to me was, God, why can't we get Max Bacchus to do something. There are some shades of familiarity with what's going on right now. Yeah, with mansion and. Man was a great governor, right like when he was the governor West Virginia, he was a good governor he was popular he actually tried to get stuff done. And then he just got, like, Senator itis like he just loves being a senator so much that he can't remember where his North stars ever were. And it's the following. Yeah. This in cinema also I don't understand her political instincts right now, given the nature of her state and what she ran on, and where the state is going it's from my lens, sort of political malpractice from her staff to let her kind of waffle the way she has. Interesting to watch. I want to give a shout out to Dennis Powers who's down here, you're Ali other questions of time now. Anybody else Tracy Tracy had the, um, put her on the spot she had meeting Eugene when she got to meet with President Obama. Eugene was her handler or wrangler. Sometimes I have that and our connection. Yeah, it was great. It was great to see Eugene again and that was such an exciting time and I was fortunate I worked as a. I taught in Ann Arbor for over 25 years, and then retired and now I'm working for the Education Policy Initiative at the board schools and retirement job. I was a classroom ambassador fellow for the US Department of Education so I was super lucky in 2012 to be Arnie Duncan's guest along with the Dean of the School of Education. And I met Eugene very early in the morning I was like the first one event because I was so excited. And, you know, and I kept asking him I'm like, I didn't believe until I actually was shaking his hand with the picture that I was really going to be very quick. But Eugene was wonderful and it's just so great to see him again. I love to see you and already Duncan one of the all time great secretaries of education I think of all time. And look at what he's done afterwards, you know he could have done literally anything he wanted, and that he went back home to Chicago is testament to kind of of him. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. Like I said earlier I can hardly wait to come to Ann Arbor and I can see I know I can meet your kids in person because they're so cute. And I know Gail will share a lot of this wisdom she learned from you with the BA class. And Ellie it's been such a pleasure I'm glad you joined and some of our other students message when they had to get off. I know I was shocked that I had this much. Of course and again because you stuck out and if you're ever, you know, Cindy has my contact information so if you ever have any follow ups or anything you have questions about are you coming back to DC let me know. Thank you that'd be great. Go blue. Thank you everybody for joining us. Thank you everybody. Bye.