 This is our sixth of eight presenter series, and then we are going to follow with three wonderful films that are made based on Henry J. and the next week, as Sarah mentioned, Dr. Levine is going to come not to give shots, but to talk about the dilemmas of public health crisis. So, see you then. Also, next week, the planning committee for Ali meets. So if you have ideas for future events, you can let us know. Let the table know. Let the table know. We'll table your ideas. So, you're not surprised to know that there are amazing people in Vermont. And I only accidentally ran into E. O. Wilson. Are people here familiar with them? Oh, look, there's another nod, another nod, another nod. That's good. And then, because I ran into him, I ran into Kurt. And Kurt is the co-founder of the Vermont Alliance for Health. He'll explain that. And he's the co-editor for this amazing book. It's a great photograph. And this book makes really countless topics approachable and overwhelming tasks that are kind of approachable too. So it's a great book. And he's brought some. And he brought also his cohort, his colleague, Maddie. Maddie and Kurt collaborated on one of the essays in here. And I'm going to read Maddie's bio. Is that okay, Maddie? Her book bio, which will drop the awareness. Maddie Lindbergh is now 12 years old. She loves nature. She, like E. O. Wilson, loves little things. Maddie lives in Montpelier, Vermont with her family. Her mouse, Milky Way, Asteroid. And dog, Rosie. She attends Main Street Middle School where she is cutting classes. Man, she'd be here. But it's client, so it's kind of okay. And she's the granddaughter of Kurt. And I want to just read Kurt's book like this. I want to read what one of his colleagues said about him. He said, the nucleus of the group, which is the half alliance and this group that got this book together. The strong attractive force that pulled us together and continues to hold us together is Kurt Lindbergh. He'll deny it, but Kurt is a force of nature with the ability to cajole, motivate, and inspire those around him. So we're very lucky to have him. Thank you. Can people hear me, or should I use this? Use that. Okay. How's that? Click it up. The green light's on. Is it on? Yeah, okay. Hold it closer. How about that? He's kind of soft-spoken for a force of nature, isn't he? I'm going to read some things once in a while, so I'm going to need my hands. Who knows a little bit about E.L. Wilson? What do you know about him? He's a leader in the environmental and thought-provoking ideas about saving Earth. There's an insect person first, and some particular. You know a lot about him. Who else knows some things about E.L. Wilson? I think we know the same things that he knows. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, when we were working on this book, and I asked Maddie if she would help me about a chapter about E.L. Wilson, she had an idea of something we ought to include in the book. Right, Maddie? Do you want to talk about that? Hmm? Hmm? Yeah? Tell them about the pinfish. I thought that we should put a part about how or what led him on the path to studying like little things and ants. And what was it? It was about how a pinfish, the dorsal fin spine, hit his eye, and he lost most of his sight in the eye. So he developed very fine sight in his other eye, and that's why he ended up studying little things. So he was like the world's leading expert on ants. And he wrote a book, a textbook on ants, it's about this thick, that is the only scientific text to win a Pulitzer Prize. So he's not only an incredible scientist, but a wonderful writer. So if you're interested in learning more about E.L. Wilson, he wrote a memoir called Naturalist, which is just a glorious, glorious book. But one of the main, so in addition to being the world's leading expert on ants, he was one of the first scientists to recognize the importance of biodiversity to life on Earth. And he did some very famous experiments that led to what's called the theory of island biogeography. And let me just explain that a bit. So off the Florida Keys, he actually covered several small islands and then fumigated the islands and really basically killed all the living creatures on those islands. And then he studied the repopulation of those islands over time. And what he discovered was that the islands where there was the fastest return of species and the highest number of species were the larger islands and those islands that were close to shore, to the source of the animals that kind of moved back. And that discovery is just a fundamental insight into conservation. And we've all heard about the importance of preserving large, intact forests, right? The importance of having corridors for wildlife to be able to move from forest block to forest block. Well, his island biogeography work is the science behind those discoveries. So he really was one of the kind of creators of the kind of conservation movement because he realized that life on Earth was dependent on these large, wild areas that are connected, you know, so wildlife can move. And he was also one of the earliest thinkers to call our attention to what humanity was doing to nature. And I'm going to read a chapter from, you know, a section from the chapter that Maddie and I wrote that's about that. So Wilson attributed his debut as an activist to a question posed to him and six other Harvard University professors in 1980. By the editors of Harvard Magazine. What do you believe will be the most important problem facing the world in the coming decade? Poverty was the most frequent response. Other nominations included the nuclear threat and the welfare state in the United States. Wilson went in another direction. The worst thing that can happen will happen is not energy depletion, economic collapse, limited nuclear war, or the conquest by totalitarian government. As terrible as these catastrophes would be for us, they can be repaired within a few generations. The one process ongoing in the 1980s that will take millions of years to correct is the loss of genetic and species diversity by the destruction of natural habitats. This is the folly our descendants are least likely to forgive us. So he was in 1980 talking about the decline of nature and the loss of biodiversity. So his work was really the inspiration behind this book because we wanted to raise awareness of the catastrophe that we humans are causing. And we wanted to also pair that with a hopeful story, that there are things we can do to help nature restore itself. So that became the motivation behind this book and the title, Our Better Nature. So the book is written mostly by Vermonters, about Vermonters. And who's been to American Flatbread in Weitzfield? Well, the owner of American Flatbread, his name is George Schenck. He's an avid conservationist and he wrote the foreword to the book. So wanted to read a little bit from George's foreword and it really highlights how prescient E. L. Wilson was. So going back 1980 he was calling about this crisis. So George writes, nature is in trouble. Almost everywhere biologists have looked, have found the biosphere in decline. The numbers are staggering. Between 1970 and 2016, populations of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish declined by an average 68%. In the last 50 years, North America has lost 3 billion songbirds. 90% of the world's marine fisheries that for millennia have been an important source of nutritious and delicious food for the family, for the human family, haven't been either overfished or fully exploited. And a broad range of insect species has declined by 40%. Forests so essential for wildlife habitat and the regulation of the atmosphere have been and continued to be cut, burned, and fragmented to the detriment of the native species that depend on them. And 98% of the native vegetation in North America's largest biome, the prairie, have been overturned by modern agriculture that has replaced a complex, self-regenerative grassland ecosystem with a monoculture cropping dependent on synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. So, you know, that continues this really depressing story. So in the book, there are a series of essays about that, about the connection between climate change and biodiversity loss, about carbon capture in forests, about conservation science in Vermont. And we paired those essays with stories about what people are already doing in Vermont to help nature recover and restore. And it turns out that one of the stories is from Montpelier. So, anybody know Charlie Hone, Montpelier resident? Well, here's a picture of Charlie looking out over his yard. And the caption on that story says, this was lawn eight years ago, this whole thing. When I was first mowing it, it was like, ugh, it's a pain to mow this, it's too wet. And then I was like, well, why am I mowing a wetland? This is absurd. And Charlie is a wetland ecologist, by the way. So he said, so the chapter about Charlie says that, Charlie knew that even small seeps are important for biodiversity and water quality, so he decided to stop mowing. When we bought the land, the spring was this little thing flowing into the ditch on my neighbor's property. Pretty soon I started planting some native plants down here on the side, because it was kind of wet. Later one winter, when the ground heaved with all the freezing and thawing, the water found an animal burrow and shifted onto Charlie's land. I know it's not like the water is literally saying, oh, I'm going to visit that thing Charlie built, but it almost feels like the wetland is sucking the hydrology and sucking in the components that belong there. Charlie's soggy lawn has turned you into a functioning ecosystem that now helps filter and retain stormwater and provides a home to new plants and animals. I'll get rid of the invasive plants if I can, and then in the wetland I'll plant native plants if I can get them. Said Charlie, explaining how he takes care of his yard. Other native plants have moved in on their own, followed by insects and amphibians. I'm just trying to heal something in a very small sense with this land, positively influence at least something small. Speaking of his three-year-old daughter, Holly, Charlie said, my other passion now is that I get to show Holly all this stuff. I grew up in a concrete wasteland where we didn't have nature in wetlands like this. So here's someone in Weitzfield in Montpelier creating a healthy, vibrant little ecosystem for all the other things that live here in Weitzfield. I live in Weitzfield, you can tell. So another little story is about George Schenck. If you've been to Flatbread, you can visit his little farm right next to it, and you go back in there, and he's got all these signs up about what he's trying to accomplish in his farm, and he's kind of set it up as a little kind of education center for people. So George Schenck is the owner of LaRue Farm and founder of American Flatbread. Around the hearth, George's goal is to create delicious food. But on the farm, his goal is to create habitat for wildlife. I've started to see all the different lives around me as my partners in this journey, said George, and as a partner with them, I have both the responsibility and the opportunity to choose to be constructive to the lives of others or to be hurtful to the lives of others. A case in point is a little book that runs under a fallen tree and into a restored wetland back behind the garden. George explained the scene, saying, a lot of creating biodiversity is about creating diversity in the habitat, creating the opportunities for life. For decades and decades, if a tree like that fell on this land, it would be removed. And that's not wrong from the farm's point of view, but it is not good from the wildlife's point of view. And so what we're trying to do here is to say, well, where's the balance? What can I do that would be responsible to the agricultural interests of the farm and its food production values, but also responsible to wildlife? And sure enough, under the fallen tree was an animal track. Do you see it in the muck? It was made by the front paw of a raccoon, and the prints of the hind feet were found just a few inches away. Back in the gardens, George has created structures for wildlife to use, like extra tall fence posts and brush piles. The fence posts are constantly used by birds, but just a few hundred yards away in the hay field where the landscape doesn't have the same three-dimensional structure, there's less bird activity. So those are just a few examples of what George Shink is doing on his tiny little farm. I'd be interested in hearing from some of you about what ideas you may have done on your land or ideas you have for what people can do to protect wildlife and create really nice habitats for them. Anybody? Yeah? I have two acres. Two acres? I would have had a map of the Hillbill River, and I have many sort of small ish gardens. I also have wetland, which was not meant to be, but it's pretty soggy most of the time. So I'd actually be curious to know what I can plant, and I still like lawn, but I don't know what to plant there. We have all these other plants, the birds and the mice-like, and even the dogs-like. But I'd love to know what kind of plants are in the wetland besides Turtle Bay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. There may be, well, there's a great book called Nature's Best Hope. It was written by an author and a scientist by the name of Doug Tallamay, and it's, I think I brought it with me here. It's going to confine a lot of the library stuff, right? Yeah, it probably isn't a library. It's at the bookstore locally, as is this book. But he, with his students, created a website called Native Plant Finder. So you can plug in your zip code, and it'll bring up the native plants that will do well, you know, where you live, and that will attract insects and butterflies and caterpillars, you know, which are the kind of foundation for a local healthy habitat and for the birds. And then you can, and then certain of those plants and shrubs, you know, will be appropriate for wetlands. So what Charlie Hone was doing, he would plant some native species in his, you know, former lawn, now wetland, and he would also, what else would he do? What would he remove? Invasive. Invasive species, right? So invasive species are those that are not from here, and nothing depends on them. You know, they're generally, we're brought in here for ornamental purposes because insects didn't eat them, right? And if you've got no insects, you've got no birds, you know, so removing invasive species is another important thing to do in preserving healthy habitat. You know, of course, the big invasive species around here is Japanese knotweed, which we see all along the rivers. Bishops' weed, right? Right, buckthorn, right? Yeah. When you grew up in Waytsville and reached the Valley Reporter, I noticed they did a huge thing of trying to get some of them, that Japanese knotweed taken out. And I thought that was wonderful. But I still, when I go out 100B, I still see all this Japanese knotweed all over the place. And having grown up on a 348th farm, I've seen the destruction of what used to be a really wonderful place. And read the article about how ticks would not be here if it were not for the fact that we'd gotten rid of the little animals that used to eat the ticks, and now they go up on the deer. So I'm really glad that you live in Waytsville. What other ideas do people have about taking action? You're a Bisbee, okay. I have to mention a fear factor. I live off County Hill Road and I decided not to mow my lawn. It's not a wet land, but it's a lawn and they shouldn't be on the lawn. My neighbors were kind enough or pregnant enough or something to say to me, oh, you've been a mow ticks. And it's a dangerous thing not to mow your lawn. It didn't faze me. I made a sign that said Nature's Choice, so people will know it's an intentional. And one of my neighbors, a younger woman, has her own property. So she stopped mowing. She works for Nature, she understood the principles. She came home from work one day and there were a lawn mowing crew right at her driveway, ready to mow. She told me, you must be in a lot of place. And they said, no, your neighbors took up a collection of lawn mowing. She said, no, no, I don't want to mow my lawn. So there's that fear of what your neighbors might think about the lawnmower. Right. Well, I grew up in New Jersey and people love their lawns in New Jersey and Maddie used to visit me. We lived in an old farmhouse, but it had like an acre of lawn with big old trees and it was beautiful. And I thought that was what things were supposed to look like. This, our aesthetic developed over years. The lawn kind of came from England. And when we moved up to Vermont, I was wondering, and my son built us a new house and we were wondering, well, what should we do? It was a couple acres. And I said, my wife, why don't we just leave it and just put a small lawn right around the house where we kind of walk and see what happens? And my wife said, well, what do you think the neighbors are going to say? And I said, well, it'll, maybe, I don't know what they'll say, but it could be a basis for conversation. And I'll tell you, what I found is the life that was there instead of the lawn, the ecologists call lawns deserts. Nothing lives in a lawn, basically. Our meadow is just full of birds and insects and, you know, bears go through it, you know? And it's alive. And I just feel enriched. By seeing that and by being part of it. So in many ways, I think by restoring nature, we are kind of restoring ourselves. So I feel like by doing a little part for nature, nature has given back to me many, many fold. So, and when in Waitesfield, I'm on the Conservation Commission there, and when I pointed, we pointed out that invasive species are the second leading cause of species loss after habitat destruction. That really energized the community. So we have 20 volunteers working on knot. We'd all over town. We got invasive species fund established. We hired five interns from UVM. We worked all summer on kind of knot weed management and control. And so I was so encouraged by that because there's a growing awareness that, you know, business as usual is not cutting it for nature. So I think one action we can think about is like organizing, right? And like your story and providing an example that other people can see, right? And sometimes that takes some courage to do it, right? So, yeah. The concept of half-earth was new to me. I don't know if it's new to other people. And for me, it helps me think in terms of my front yard. Could you kind of go over that concept of people knot? Yeah, okay. Matt, did you want to try to explain that? Half-earth. You want the microphone? No? Okay, I'll do it. So E.O. Wilson decided he needed to learn some math. He's a biologist. He needed to learn some math to help with his conservation work. And he worked with mathematicians. And he did some modeling and calculations that demonstrated that to preserve 85% of the existing species on Earth and to halt the decline and loss of biodiversity, which now is happening at a rate that's a thousand times greater than the natural rate, half the Earth has to be set aside for nature. So half the land and half, you know, half the water. And so that, you know, that was the, you know, that was what led to the title, you know, half Earth. That's led to some international and national conservation organizations calling for that level of conservation. And you may have heard the movement 30 by 30 means conserve 30%, you know, of the planet by 2030. And that's actively being pursued by the Biden administration and many states. It's been considered by the legislature here. But that doesn't just, that doesn't mean having 30 or 50% of the land like in these forever conserved areas. It means like in total, we need to provide good habitat for nature. So good habitat can be in your yard, can be in a town park, can be in a farm, you know, that is managed and run in a certain way. But collectively, that's kind of the magnitude of the challenge and what nature, the space that nature needs to restore itself. So in the book, we've coined the term, not only half Earth, but half yard, half town, half valley, half farm to get everybody to think about what can they do on the land that they may be connected with. So. I wanted to bring up something about, I belong to an organization called Population Connection. And the really big problem is the overpopulation of our Earth and the fact that there are just too many people. You see babies dying in Africa and all the people and the immigrants coming to this country. What can we do to stop that? That is why we don't have any biodiversity, one of the big reasons behind all this. It is population certainly and the agricultural land that is required to feed, to feed so many people. Some people say agriculture is, conventional agriculture is, you know, the largest contributor to biodiversity loss. You see what's happening in the Amazon, the conversion of the forest to the soybean fields and cattle grazing territory is an example. But what other ideas do people have for things that can be done kind of locally here to protect biodiversity? Yeah, in the back there. Well, I really believe that what we do locally by strengthening our community and able to adapt to other communities, the once-pronged community outwards, I think something is to look at our economic wealth even though we're low. What we do locally, I'm really excited by the mycorrhizal remediation of wet, of Licarian areas. So Lake Champlain is committed. We do have a lot of pollution in this state. Fungi are incredible. So you can basically end up composting the fungi that take toxins out of soil. Doing something that otherwise humanity has not been able to do before intentionally. So that's one thing, I think, and then, of course, transportation and food efficiency. Right, I think that points out that climate change and biodiversity loss are inextricably linked. Climate change is causing biodiversity loss. Healthy habitats that are failing contribute to climate change. Healthy habitats and forests help mitigate climate change. So that's one reason, I think, Wilson was such an advocate for attention to nature is that there's awareness, you could say awareness of climate change is up here. Biodiversity is down here. And it needs to be up here and considered as the two most significant issues that humanity and this planet are facing. So... Yes, sir? Well, I just wanted to make a comment. I tried to tell people, coal miners used to have a canary down in the mine. So they knew when the air in there was getting potty. If they wore that, it could be an explosion. It could be a fire. It could be just enough for the dead that they would die from lack of oxygen. The death of the various species that we're seeing, the loss of species around this world tells us that's our canary. Our canary is coughing. Our canary is choking. And we just keep on digging. We haven't done... You talk about the awareness is not there. If we don't... The one species that we should care about that we see all the time are the boosters. That we need this to be the honeybee. The various species of bees have disappeared as people keep sounding the alarm and we keep digging. We keep mining away and we keep going up. There's a population connection too. When the earth has exceeded its carrying capacity, it has. And we need to admit that. We need to make the politicians acknowledge it. They're not. Instead, they want to hit us against each other. They don't want to face up to anything. If Greta Thunberg has been able to make any kind of an impact, how are we going to make it? I'm asking. Well, I guess my... Just reflections on that is... Yeah, I'm not an international figure. I'm not a billionaire. I'm a resident in a small state and it can feel hopeless in the face of these challenges. But I've become more helpful, hopeful by following the example of what people are already doing and then starting to do more myself. So this book was an example of that working on my conservation commission in town. Looking at what I can do in my yard. I've become more hopeful and I'm seeing other people join in this. So I think the more of us that can start taking action and action can be of many forms. It can be as basic as voting and encouraging support for really strong conservation measures. It could be as simple as taking out some non-native species in your yard or planting good stuff for the bees. So I think we must remain hopeful. We have to and I feel more hopeful now because of engaging in this work. Engaging in this work and finding others that are and building relationships with them. Yes, sir. I get screwed by the fact that our leadership essentially continues so I should. How many times have you heard this and I think talked about and all this analysis and fighting the desire for growth and so I think we need the local people to give an example. But we do have to communicate this message to our leaders and I just don't see the people doing that. Well, so let's do more of it ourselves. You know, I... John, what are the environmental groups that you think are... I don't really... Well, I think in Vermont the Nature Conservancy is a leader in biodiversity across the globe. In the Northeast Wilderness Trust based here in Montpelier is seeking to preserve old... preserve forest land forever. So that's the ultimate step that can be taken to restore nature. The Vermont Natural Resources Council does really good policy work. The Vermont Land Trust, Shelburne Farms, North Branch Nature Center. There's the Vermont Center for Eco Studies and those organizations now are coming together to create what we're... might be calling a Vermont Biodiversity Coalition. To do more together to educate the public more, to figure out what's needed and can be done in Vermont. So it's just another example of another action that people and organizations can take. I wanted to ask Maddie if you don't mind, Maddie. Maddie? Whether there's this kind of conversation happening at your school and whether any of your friends and classmates have talked about how they talk to a beautiful grandparent. At my school there's a class about sustainability that everyone rotates through throughout the year that kind of focuses on like... kind of like food insecurities and also like biodiversity and stuff. And yeah, that's... and there are other like groups. Like there's a group in my school called MSMS Sustain Leadership. And they work on like helping people need help and other like sustainability issues. Do your friends talk about nature much? Are they worried about it or... They don't really talk about it but if they do then they usually seem to know a lot of stuff when they do talk about it. And what are you planning on doing in your yard? We mostly just let it grow out most of the time but probably just remove like non-native plants. Yeah, Maddie lives on Liberty Street. So they're planning to plant more natives and one big thing people can do with lawns is just reduce the size of the lawn and replace it with natives. So that's what Maddie and her mom and dad are going to be working on here in Montpelier. So, yes, sir? You kind of have to be a shepherd of your land. And we still have a woodlot but we had a woodlot that after there was cutting done we would spread native millet for the cartridge because the cartridge is your life life. And I had some friends that were hunting us and they would bring their elderly hunters to my land to walk around me the easy paths and have a good chance of getting a cartridge. So piles of brush, you know, so for rabbits and you know what, crawls around. But also being aware like walking up to Parka Palusa and seeing that they're letting the milkweed grow on the sidelines for the waterfalls. So point that out to Maddie the next time or to Will the lover. But be a shepherd and be an educator. Right, right. I was surprised to learn, I think it was from reading Wilson's book about Half Earth is that forests manage forests where some standing dead trees are left and where woody debris is allowed to remain on the ground have 50% more biodiversity than the forest that is kind of cleaned. You know, the European kind of park look for a forest has 50% less biodiversity. So a lot's going on in that dead stuff. There's a lot of life, right, there. So that's a great point. Yeah, Ann. I'm thinking of how to get people working individually toward these wonderful goals. I'm thinking about a little subject. I have two sons who are conservation commissions. One in Connecticut and one in Massachusetts. And instead of saying to somebody it will be better for biodiversity if you plant more trees. They say, well, your view of the lake would be enhanced by having it framed by trees. That kind of thing. And they want to be in control. But if their control includes doing the right thing, it's even better. Or a row of shrubbery that may be wonderful for birds and biodiversity. The colors will turn beautiful in the fall. So you have to sell people what they want. And they still think they're in control but maybe they're doing more than them. Right, right, right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I have 25 acres of hayfield on my property. And I have an agreement with my neighbors to mow the hay and fertilize as they need. In the old days when the farmer up the road had extended family that worked on the hay and the old guys would come with their sides and cut everything right up to the stone walls. And now, of course, with the tractor, he's not interested in coming close to the stone walls. And at first I thought, you know, I'm messy. And now I appreciate, you know, that here there are these little strips, little natural strips for the birds. And we do avoid the bobbling nesting season in part of the hayfield. But I'm wondering if there's anything else I can do as a hayfield owner. Yeah. You know, I don't know the answer to that. But I'm sure you can track down a little research that would have some suggestions. But I think, you know, having native spaces like around it is a really good one. So someone over there has had her hand up a long time, I think. I'm curious. We have Sean Beckett, who I think you know. I do. He was last week interventioned in passing to you and the team. In this group, and you and your group, we're working together on a project. Would you all think about that? Yeah. By the way, Sean took most of the photographs in the book. I mean, he's an incredible naturalist and photographer. Can you repeat the question we can't hear? Oh, she was asking what the organization I'm involved with is called the Vermont Alliance for Half Earth. And Sean, I guess, mentioned when he was here last week that the North Branch Nature Center and our Vermont Alliance were doing some things together. We've done several things. One is we have organized what are called bioblitzes with schools in the area. And you probably folks in Montpelier know about bioblitzes, you know. So we organized during the pandemic, it was called the Spring Backyard Bioblitz, kind of across Vermont. And with North Branch Nature Center created a Educators Institute for Biodiversity, which is for teachers. So every summer, teachers spend a week at North Branch learning about biodiversity and how they can integrate it into their curriculum at schools. And I guess in addition to this book, North Branch Nature Center is one of the organizations that is having these conversations, is joining the conversations about creating a Biodiversity Coalition for Vermont. So you're very lucky to have North Branch Nature Center here. It is a treasure. Could you say something about your book for sale? And the book group that you heard about? Yeah, we did an event similar to this a couple weeks ago at the Richmond Public Library. And of course you never know how many people are going to come to these events, but there was a whole contingent there from Burlington. And they had formed a book group, you know, and they were all reading our better nature together. And so they all traveled to Richmond for that event. So the Richmond Library also has obtained, I think, 10 or 13 copies of this book that they're willing to lend out to anybody who would be interested in sponsoring a book group. So if that's of interest to anybody here, you know, those arrangements could be made. Maddie and I brought some copies of the book. It sells for, I think, $28.99. If anyone's interested in a copy today, we'd be happy to make that available to you for $20. And if you don't have resources to pay for a book, we have some free copies that we could give to you today. So... I have another question. I mean, my brother owns the 340 acres. It's down to less because he's sold off lots of things and everything. But the sugar, the maple sugar orchard, he's cleaning it out now with these big tubes and everything. And it's all in the land use program, as you would imagine, to avoid paying taxes on it. But he wants to leave it to his children. And I keep mentioning the land trust and all these different things. And do the foresters that are in business today do they know about all this? Because I don't think of them leaving trees down. They're going to want to cut that and sell it for lumber. Yeah, I think there are quite a few foresters who I know who are aware of progressive forest management practices for nature. But not the one he uses all the time. That could be, but there are foresters who know what to do. There are programs specifically aimed at improving habitat in sugaring forests. Audubon has a program. It's a money thing. You know, if you grew up here, you're making money off that land. And that's something that people who grew up here from New Jersey, I went to college at Rutgers. But, you know, you don't understand that nativism that speaks of the forest as being something they're going to get money out of. My grandfather was a lumberman. He had a lumberyard in Old Walden, in Watesfield. So I don't want to take up time, but I just think I have a different attitude than maybe a lot of people that have moved here from somewhere else. Could be, could be. So I think we're almost at the hour here. I thought maybe I'd just read a couple more things from the book and kind of wrap things up for today. So there's a chapter in this book that's called, it's called Rewilding. And it's written by Tom Butler, who's a resident of Huntington. And he's been involved in creating the Northeast Wilderness Trust. He's been involved in the massive efforts in South America to preserve, conserve millions of acres of former ranch lands, which have now been knitted together in national parks. And Tom was involved in that. And he basically says, well, I'm going to read you what he says. With each breath, with every heartbeat, we live by grace. But while we live, we organize our lives by stories. We understand our place in the world by the tales we tell ourselves. For as long as our species has employed figurative language some 70,000 years ago, we have been talking and listening. Listening and talking to transmit the wisdom, the humor, the codes of right and wrong conduct that collectively form human culture. Later on in his chapter, a new story is big enough to help turn the tragedy of humanity and the diversity of life away from ecological Armageddon. What story is inclusive and attractive enough to inspire millions or even billions of people to put themselves in it? I vote for this one. The story of rewilding. The resurgent wildness enveloping the earth of expanding beauty and diversity of wilderness recovery writ large. Of people from all backgrounds in any corner of the globe lending their energies towards helping nature heal at all scales to the benefit of all life. Could this be the dream that's big enough to capture the hearts and minds of millions that is both timeless and urgent enough to prompt bold action? Could it be the story generous enough to carry our love for specific places into the future in the form of interconnected ribbons of protected habitat wrapping the planet in wild beauty? Maybe, just maybe it is. So, thank you for coming today. And talking with Maddie and me. Yeah.