 A very warm welcome in the workshop Accessibility and Diversity. Let's have an inspiring panel with fantastic guests in the next hour, which is live stream all over the world, hopefully beyond the borders of Europe. Who is talking and who is hosting and who is moderating. I would like to introduce Julia Binja Hesse, who she's director and dramaturg works internationally and she's the vice president of acetation Germany. Yes, hello. Thank you, Stefan and a very warm welcome also from my part. I'm very happy and honored to be co hosting this session with Stefan, my colleague who is the artistic director of Jungus Schauspielhaus Düsseldorf, and a member of the executive committee of acetate international anything else about him I think you might find in the program of the forum or you can ask him later in the virtual bar. So, just once one word this goofy looking helmet is because it's really noisy in my place and I don't want you to be bothered so I'm sorry I look like this. I have the immense pleasure to shortly introduce the fantastic guests we are having in our workshop today and I would like to start with event hardy event hardy is a South African theater director producer educator and advocate focusing on theater for young audiences. She is the president of the global TYA Association acetate international and is using this position in the past and present to create opportunities for artistic exchange and cross cultural collaboration around the world. And especially, she's making theater and open space and stage for diverse voices and stories. Welcome. Barnas ababi is artistic director of the famous hunger Clara theater in Stockholm. She works as a director in Sweden and internationally for 20 years. The way how she deals with access and diversity changed landscape, at least in Sweden. So we are very curious to hear about what you, what you are thinking and doing in your theater, and what you're proposing. Hello, and last but not least, I would like to introduce Constanza Makras, who is the artistic director of the internationally acknowledged company Dorky Park in Berlin. It's an interdisciplinary, interdisciplinary, wow, ensemble that works with dance, text, live music and film and consequently her creations not only combine artists from various disciplines, but often are site specific pieces and installations. And one of Constanza's issues is radical change of the theater sector towards more diversity, less barriers and more artistic courage. So let's see how this goes. Welcome Constanza, but I can't see her. So let's, maybe she's she's getting in. And let's start with the issue of accessibility and let's start with him at Hardy. Let us say that every person has the right to participate in the art and access means to create a space for everybody to participate, having choices. But maybe we are far away from that. So how can we build access. My question to that is, how can we, how can we make theaters more accessible and maybe what can we learn from the theater for the young audiences that where you know a lot about from all over the world. How can we create spaces that are more accessible and what can be learned from the theater for young audiences event. Thank you. Thanks Stefan. And thanks so much for this opportunity. I think to start off obviously we recognize that the European theater space is incredibly diverse. And you know we're not talking about when we talk about access to something we're not talking about a one size fits all kind of access because we have to recognize that we dealing with everything from the independent sector through to the permanent repertory companies through to the big state funded institutions, and all of these spaces may need to deal with access in different ways. I do think though that the one of the key things that needs to happen anywhere in the world is the development of a functional kind of artistic ecosystem. So these different parts of the theater space and institutions and organizations speak to one another and work with one another in strategizing and so this is what makes this conversation such an exciting one because hopefully it's bringing together all the different role players from these different sectors to try and construct some kind of common vision. I think the second thing is to think about how we can reclaim the space of theater is being really central to public discourse as that space in which ideas are tested or reframed that it's that space of meeting and exchange between all parts of society, and that in the process of that meeting and exchange we are able to do community building essentially and forge new communities where perhaps those communities were not possible before. So I think that right now, and one of the key things is to be outward looking rather than inward looking as a theater community. We need to have real curiosity about our audiences about who they are or who they might be, why they are or aren't interested in what it is that we are creating and and how to have a genuine dialogue with that audience. And I think that one of the things that sets theater for young audiences apart from and in some respects ahead of the rest of the theater scene is specifically its genuine curiosity and interest in its audience. You know theater for young audiences recognizes that theater is not unidirectional, it is a communication, it is a conversation it's an act of collective meaning making. And in order to communicate successfully with that audience we have to engage long before the work reaches the stage. In the process of dreaming the work in the process of making the work in the process of empowering the audience to engage with some of the processes that we might be using. So essentially to almost democratize the process of art making and of then being active respondents to whatever the work is and to then have an impact on that work so that the work is in constant exchange with its audience as it's being received. Often when we talk about an engaged audience and TYA we're not only thinking about an audience that has its eyes wide open and it's full attention on the stage. What we're also talking about is an audience that actively participates in some way in the performance after the performance in some activity related to the performance, and then we see that engagement continue into the everyday life of the child. So often we'll get reports from parents from teachers of how you know ideas that were teased out in the production are emerging in children's play or in their conversation long after the event. So it's the sense of theater really being embedded in the society. And I think that one of the ways that TYA does this is that it has always gone about engaging its audiences in non traditional spaces as well as in the theater spaces. So we've sought out audiences in creches in schools in medical facilities in after school programs in refugee camps in community spaces. And now during covert in people's homes through zoom or through social media platforms. So it takes theater into these alternative spaces and then in so doing creates collaborations with unlikely partners to reach new audiences. And I think that's also important is looking again looking outward looking beyond just the theater community for our partnerships, finding the ways in which we can engage with the broader society in order to access a wider audience. And then as I mentioned with TYA is this idea of really working with the audience. And I think, you know, so often we will look at an audience. And we'll say are we playing to the convert to be playing to those people who've been engaged with the arts before so you see someone who has studied the arts goes on to be a good audience member. Doesn't that tell us something that actually we need people to be engaged with the actual doing of the arts to demystify that. That kind of engagement of what theater might be so that they can feel the transformation for themselves they can feel the kind of magic that we that we are creating and understand something other in order to want to access it more deeply. So I think really seeing audiences as a partner to the work as active co creators as dramaturgs as as part of the conversation is vital. And then I think also, and this comes back to the question of space is in the South African experience, you know, so often we are working outside of that specially designed cocoon with all the technology and design that is possible within a theater space. But we nevertheless are making magic and that magic might be happening in a rough way on township streets or in a school classroom. And but what that magic does is it transforms a space that perhaps was a space of poverty or of lack or of conflict. It transforms it into something else. And what that does is it empowers the audience to see the changes possible. So it makes theater a real interaction with the society, and, and, you know, potentially a profound contributor to social change. So yes, I mean I think those are some of the things that I wanted to draw attention to just as an opening statement that we really do need to think about space we need to think about process. And we need to think about all the barriers to access that we might be putting up, you know, in order to, to fully diversify and and make our work accessible. There are so many such events so many things to discuss in this dialogue, talking about looking beyond the basis, or more participation mystify our sector for to have more access to it. But there's many things to do. Are they already some questions from the q&a from the chat. Not so far. No, but maybe we could tell you that there is the chance of all of you are in the in the auditorium here, you can put your questions to event or later partners and consent to us in the chat and then I will grab them and ask them here and if that and the others can answer to them. So if you have any question right now just pop it in our other ways. I suggest maybe we move on and if you have any question just write it and we will ask later. Okay. Yes. Perfect. And then I would pass over to Farnas Barbie for this moment. We will come back to event in this session. Farnas, you, you changed your theater. When you when you started to be artistic director. Can you tell us, because I see it a bit of a role model of more accessibility or diversity but let's talk mostly talk about accessibility. What did you do in the car when you started your work and what are your experience with the question of more accessibility. Thank you, Stefan. Thank you for joining everyone and thank you for inviting me to this important and very interesting conference. My name is Farnas are Bobby and I've been working as a stage director and playwright in Sweden for about 20 years. I've worked a lot with diversity and inclusion and actively works to make the Swedish theater a space for inclusion and for diversity. Trying to work with the whiteness in Swedish theater mainly trying to change what stories and whose stories are being told, and also changing who is telling the story on stage and behind the stage. I always tend to focus on existential topics such as identity, migration, exile, queerness and power structures. And six years ago I was appointed the artistic leadership of a Clara, which is a renowned theater for young audiences, and it's located in the city center of Stockholm. It has been groundbreaking theater since it was founded in 1975 by legendary director Susan Austin. And the theater is built on the idea that children are fully capable of understanding and experiencing art, and that art doesn't necessarily need to be edifying or wholesome or even kind. We also work with the idea that the children want to talk about so-called difficult topics, the things that adults might want to protect them from. So Ungar Clara is also famous for doing plays on themes that are considered to be too tough for children to deal with. We have a history of working very closely to our audience and we strive to have an intersectional perspective on power structures, also including the child perspective in this. And acknowledging that children are a marginalized group in society that have very little power over their lives. So we also need to actively have this in mind when we work with our audience. I have the question, how did you institutionalize this intersectional perspective, including the audience? Is there a forum, is there a gremium where you discuss or how do you do it as a process? We do it in different ways you might say. Our method is mainly built on three pillars. We use the perspective, we acknowledge the power that we have when we meet the audience and we also work very closely with the audience. So we have many meetings with the audience during the rehearsals, but also before we start rehearsing, even maybe before the idea is born. And when we meet the audience, we don't work with trying to show them the theater to ask them what is good and bad. Sometimes it's more a conversation, maybe based on the topics of the play, sometimes just to understand what the important things in their lives are and trying to make them more a part of the process making of the theater. So are there children suggesting issues and topics that you raise or are you doing, are you sometimes getting suggestions? Sometimes they do, and sometimes we have our own idea of what we want to talk about and we do some sort of, we try to examine the topic from their perspective and see how to get close to it and what part of the topic might be important for them in their lives. But it's not so much the actual choosing of the topics more as to find a way to communicate. It's not so much the communication, but this is also made possible in our rehearsal processes because we have, we work with longer rehearsal processes than other theaters do. And we also work with trying to get input from other expertise areas and the experts and researchers that might be connected to the topics that we have chosen for the play that we're working on. So are you doing your theater and going to rural areas or to other places? Yes, we do. We work very closely towards the schools. So we have a lot of contact with the pedagogues and the teachers in order to get the children to come to the theater, or we go to the schools, meet the children, and we also do other sorts of visits. We have a lot of visits in Stockholm, but two years ago we were appointed by the Swedish government. We were appointed a national theater for young audiences, which means that we now have a national assignment. So we work, our work is aimed towards the whole, all the children in Sweden and not only in Stockholm. So we do go to other areas as well. Questions from the judge from Julia. One question. I don't know for who it is, but either of you can maybe answer. Are there any special theater programs or funding for projects focusing on better accessibility? So is there support from the politics? I can answer for Sweden. There are different projects and different funding that you can apply for. They are not always aimed at the artistic expression or the topic of the theme. They could be more about how to practically make the theater more accessible in terms of different types of aids for the audience that might need maybe support for children with autism, nonverbal aid, support, or maybe working with translation into sign language or blind interpretation, which we also try to do. We sometimes do it in the theater, but we always try to collaborate so that we can make this possible at the Neklara as well. We will come back. If that wants to add something from South Africa, maybe? Sure. I mean, within South Africa, access is a very important issue and a lot of times funding will be determined by what audience you're going to be able to speak to in that funding. So for example, the provincial areas that are away from the formal theater structures tend to be prioritized in the funding at the moment. And spaces that are nonformal spaces are also prioritized at the moment because there's a feeling that while the theaters that are in cities can to some extent work on a commercial model. And if we're talking about the deeper rural areas or, you know, less served provinces, they need the support. So a lot of funding is going towards that kind of access. So let's let's integrate Constanza Makras into the dialogue. For the moment, we will come back. Stanza, in your work, you said to me that is Constanza already there? Yes, yes, I'm there. Yeah, can we see you? Constanza, you sometimes said that needs looking at accessibility and diversity needs a radical change. You said it's not it's not consequent what is done until now and to see it as you know, and you do it different you try to do it different. What is your critical and radical position? I don't know if it's radical. I think it's just part of like understanding what is diversity, what is accessibility and what is called a state theater when I was explaining this example of the stats that are in Germany that state theaters that are that are I have to say goodbye. For example, you know, like if I was working in Düsseldorf is a city with a big community of like people from Ghana, big Japanese community, and there's nothing in the theater that speaks for people from this country or these cultures. And it's so there's no connection from the state theater to the community. So you know the city doesn't go to the theater basically that's what happens you know that you cannot call it the state theater and then people don't go there because it's only it just focus in one specific audience that is playing shows that are more than 100 years old. And that don't talk about the dynamism of a city, you know, and it's very difficult for people to understand immigration when they're not at risk, you know, when people talks about, you know, the refugees and people they think this is like, you know, and they don't even address the communities that are living in the city, like culturally, you know, so you say you want like those communities need to be addressed culturally, and it's not like, not as minorities permanently but as citizens of this of the place where they're, you know, they have it. They're not, you know, it's always this sort of tokenism, you know, in, in the idea of inclusion, you know, and it's always becoming a little bit token, you know, like a little bit like okay. Now we have somebody who's diverse, you know what I mean, and if this person was diverse, it should be part of the landscape, not to, you know, and not just address as diverse, you know, women we don't to be addressed as women all the time and I mean lower women and of course but you know for example for me I find it very, very simple example that I find it very complicated when people says Kamala Harris is the first female president like vice presidents and I find it like, well she's a lawyer she that's all these other things you know what I mean. And I think it's also like a problem of how we focus on differences, you know, I mean I think some things they have to, we still, we have to start to normalize in the good sense that, you know, we need more things need to be more inclusive but like part of our like inclusive as part of our life inclusive, you know, as like oh look we're including somebody and we make like a thing about it, you know, I found that very, you know, that's why it's always like this thing that you know people also make special shows to address communities you know and it's like, you know this is like always like, you know, making like a big marker of like yeah I mean there is differences but this was a lot of similitudes and there's also like very subtle ways of people including themselves in a society, which are interesting you know, and that we always see. Maybe that's like what is it that what I'm aiming trying you know to do when I work I'm trying to think about that that you know like I look at the people that work not like, oh now I'm like anthropologically, you know, because it has something like that European theater that it goes like oh look this is the people from here or there you and I'm an immigrant myself and I'm like I feel like okay well I mean my German still not very good my son is always correcting me. You know, and I'm like a very much like an example like my grandparents were in Argentina my European grandparents who went to Argentina you know and started the whole life and they didn't speak Spanish you know. I mean and why are we work country which was colonized you know and it was like you know so you know histories are so complex we cannot just you know people our backgrounds each background is very complicated you know and I feel like we need to you know. I think like the addressing the difference all the time I'm putting the point on the difference sometimes it's not exactly the way I will go about it you know. You explained the word tokenism more. What do you mean? Yeah it's like you know like you're like oh we need a women who is not from Europe you know and then you are like the only one you know basically and that they call token you know. I mean like we need a person from right shall the diverse you know we need you know so it's like always like having like you know like you're like the person who as you yourself you're like the sort of like the flag of inclusion and also then you're like you know you're like held us in but at the same time. So, you know like you're the included person and the only one kind of thing you know. So, and I mean I had it by example you know I don't know like recently I was holding a speech in a in a theater festival, and they called me to this before the opening and it was very late actually, you know the opening speech and it's because probably they realize that there was no women anyway like the only one artist women and they were like, oh wow we need a woman who's not European you know and it really felt that way you know. And I mean and this happened to me not one time but many times you know but I mean I'm still what considers you know white you know so it's like you know but I mean, but still you know I'm not European you know it's like I feel like those, you know those kind of bells ringing behind you know it's really uncomfortable you know because I mean at the end, you know I'm doing artistic work and I mean, and what is important is what you think and what you're doing I mean, and what you create as an artist you know and. Yes, so it's a bit you know like. I called like two days before the opening with something that is planned for a really long time is it is funny, actually, and then you know it's a second important speech that one you know it's the only speech you held you know there's not even politicians talking you know. So you better say something interesting I think, but it was okay you know I was really happy and I said okay well it's exactly what I need to talk about you know why there's a more inclusion of women in the program which is very obvious you know, but that there was only one female artist in the whole program. European festival. How can this still happen you know how this can still happen for me is absurd it's like you know we cannot even like you know. It is like we need to like really be very strict I mean every in every day's conduct and life of like way of we work as artists and programmers or whatever is we need to include that is like a daily practice is something that you until you know it becomes part of your. functioning, and the function of your structure and this is the only way you can start to change it. Any questions from the chat, Julia. There is a question but it's too far now so I don't know they want another question to constantly first or. Let's wait for that for a moment, just one question. Last thing because we start to go into the complete dialogue. I want to say in your work. It's dance and theater so it's not using so much the languages so it's there's a lot of possibilities for access how do you use that language to for more accessibility. Like movement language or speaking language. Okay well because I use both no I mean I use also like a lot of text, I mean text is always like performing different languages you know and it's subtitle and you know that I mean and then. And movement language is something that we develop you know we try to with we work with cast which are like as many times like from many different places and we look for like a common. You know when it's about something you know like when we think about certain qualities of movement that they can picture because for me that is very abstract in a way you know it's that you cannot you know enunciate with movement what you will do with words. And that's a good thing actually so I mean what we look for is like like for example we're like working on the subject of memory or whatever like you know we just look for things that unify our. The people's dance style in some kind of like lingering idea you know, and then you can see people's people has everybody they take on movement so you see a lot of how people naturally moves but you know, they also like move together into some kind of creation you know. And I think that creates you know we are working creating like an artistic space where everybody feels connected, you know, and with their input with their movement you know. So I think like for me it's more like finding this common place where we our, even because every movement language is different because I don't come and say to people okay you go to the right you go to the left I work with their own movement you know so I just basically make them develop things you know through ideas I have about you know. Improvisation ideas or movement ideas but they were they found their own voice within those ideas, you know, so it's not like I'm telling people what to do exactly I don't know. So for me it's more like how to to mediate that to happen that it you know it has some kind of coherence you know, within, within a concept you know. And at the same time keeps the individuality of individuality of people you know and they're not stressing the differences but stressing the common language that you have in the diversity. Julia, are there are the questions in the chat. Yes, yes, there's actually one open question to all of our panelists and maybe you could just as the time is advancing just give a statement to it because it's nice the question is, are there any sticky subjects like what are the difficulties in this area of access and points that you feel uncomfortable when you're trying to do this in your work. There's a lot of things which are difficult to talk about you know, I mean, like recently I was approached by an actress who talked to me about domestic violence you know because she said that she was, she was victim of it. And for me that's a that you know I mean I'm saying I'm not saying you shouldn't work about that you should work about that you know but you know is how contextualize you know in which way you work about these subjects you know, and how to take the importance you know and to be like really. I don't want to honor the important how important that is also I was approached to direct, you know, a show about the murder of Emmett Till this man who was lynched in America, you know, the black men, you know and it's like, I felt like as a white director it was very weird because it was like a whole black group of like German residents you know I mean okay they took me as a South American immigrant but I found it also like it was for me weird to do that because I felt like, yeah, I just felt that they would have been a black person directing, I felt in that way because it was very specific you know and it's like very weird and you know, I feel like somehow that that was a bit, I didn't feel like it was completely my space. And I also, for example, I think like things you have to be you have to honor and be serious about it and always you know so, I mean it's the sticky subject is like how to find your honesty and serious is seriously about you know and without exploiting anything because everything you know which is difficult has an exploitation corner for me, you know, and this is very very difficult and it's like what you need to think about a lot, you know. Jonas, what would you answer to the question. Well, I think one difficulty that I've met during my work with trying to destroy the white, the dominance in the theater is the question of bringing up the privilege, because in order to show what diversity means or representation means you need to talk about, you need to talk about the differences. And what happens with people when they, when they understand their privilege and and need to step away from that. And also, when we work with we work, we try to aim our work a lot to the underprivileged areas in around in Sweden and when we see the impact of when when the young audiences come to the theater and see the actors that they can relate to it creates some sort of. Sometimes when we do the performances the the children when they stay and they want to talk with the actors, the white actors are very alone because nobody wants to talk to them. Everybody wants to talk to the person that they relate to and that they recognize and that told the story that they recognize so it's sometimes it's hard to talk about privilege and this. This is something else take a point I think in the work. Discussion discussion is strongly starting in Germany, countries are much more much more advanced in this event. What's your experience with this. Yeah, I mean building on what for now is just said I mean I think you know we're starting to talk about diversity and we can't really talk about diversity without talking about equity. And you know that's that's really the key thing and I think it also speaks back to what Constanza was saying about tokenism. So if we speak about diversity it's very easy to talk to fall into that trap of tokenism of ticking boxes of you know just ensuring that there's some sort of representation of somebody there, but real diversity surely is about real equity, and that requires flexibility it requires profound change it requires listening when you would have been talking you know it requires a whole lot of shifts in behavior and in often in structural formations as well. And that can be deeply uncomfortable for people. And I think I think the other thing that is linked to this is that it also links to another point in the chat here. And Constanza was talking about creating a kind of finding the the commonality between people and I think that that obviously is really important. I think equally important is holding a space where tension can be apparent and can be expressed, but can be held in tension with one another. So in other words, creating that kind of dialogic dynamic, saying it's okay to disagree, we can be the space of disagreement, we can be the space where we have very different opinions on something. We can hear them, we can allow those to be expressed in the space, and we don't necessarily have to walk away with a nicely packaged message or, you know, a final conclusion we can leave that in the hands of the audience. The audience can be the ones who make up their own minds about whatever it is. So I think that sometimes what it means is that we can't, we can't refine our messages and, and sort of dictate how we want our work to be seen. We have to allow it to be kind of open to contradiction to different points of view to, you know, to holding these differences in the work itself. Sorry, what I meant we come on language, you know, is it like we're asking about the language of dance, you know, and I was just explaining very specifically about how people moves on stage. I mean, there's always disagreement and tension between the people at work and I never want to also tell people what how they should feel about what they see, you know, I'm always like, you know, for me my shows, I would say the audience should take their own conclusions, you know, and it's like, I don't want to, like, I'm not a person who makes like always like very, very conformative, like conforming work and sense of it. But I think like in terms of developing a working space together in which I, you know, because I work with dancers who are like for many different backgrounds and you know, and sometimes how we create movement together has to do with certain like using certain qualities and people keeps a different ways of being and also like their ways to do things and you know, and this tension is always there. It's about how we work together, you know, like for me it's more about not deferencing it in the people and say okay you do this kind of dance and you do this kind of dance and you do this kind of dance because that's what you do. It's more about that, you know, it's about like not making people move how people expect them to move all because of their background, you know, but amplifying, you know, the creating a space also where the ballerina doesn't have to be a ballerina. I mean, it's like she studied that but she can do something else, you know, it's more about like an artistic space in which people has a different tools to express, you know, like it's more like how we use develop the stuff, you know, because we're talking specifically about movement and for me movement is always like, you know, it could be so many things, you know, and I mean, and it's more about how we develop but for me, like, you know, these tensions, you know, dramaturgically the whole thing is there is disagreements and stuff like that and tensions, you know, that we work, I mean, but in terms of how the language of dance for me works is interesting that it sort of generates also space within what people has as a background, you know, because otherwise, you know, you're like kind of meant to move like how you move, you know, like you study something, you do something and then, you know, normally people who work with movement either they did it very young, like very young or they just do it amateur or like they have just capacity, you know, people have so many different ways of doing it, you know, and and the important thing is that they don't have to be stuck in what you think they should be doing for me, I mean, that's okay, that's what I try to create in the working space, but that's what I mean, you know. Let's go a bit deeper into this diversity issue. We all would agree that every person has the right to be represented on stage and in the audience and we are far away from that. As you already said, but it's it's both it's it's bringing a verse and different people on the stage and tell stories which are not only the, I don't know the common usual Central European stories, the white stories. We all know chimamanda and ditches talk all about the danger of the single story. We all know also that you cannot change the audience without changing the program and without changing the persons who are on stage and who are responsible for the whole thing. So it's a bit like you said it's a big shift of everything that go towards diversity in equity. I hear that it's a huge challenge for also for the for the theaters and for the politicians. If they want to bring that forward, for instance, against the new nationalism, because I think I think diversity is the answer to nationalism. So I'm going to bring this forward in the next years, maybe on a level maybe on our in our theaters what would be next steps in this very complex situation to go forward. It's just an open question to all of you, all three of you who wants to start. For me, well, I mean this is like something that it should, you know, like first of all, they should be different in like institutionally, not just like in the youth part of the theater because you know sometimes in state theaters you have like the younger ensemble they make the more progressive things because they say it's just things like just young people cares about, you know, and so then they have like other writers and sometimes even like you know it's a bit sad because sometimes the quality of the writers is not so good, you know. And so they use that space in an experimental way but also like sometimes they just really don't think about the quality, you know, and think that you have to think about that. Actually, you know, there is amazing writers that you can bring in a house, you know, that like, there's been a lot of like just just be a little bit investigate more and all I look around what's happening all over the world was writing who's doing what you know and then try to bring this stuff to the main stages to the big stages with you you know, and it let the big actors do like a piece from a young African writer somebody from, you know, really this like a Latino right you know this in Argentina we have amazing writers as well you know, like and start to change you know it's you know the world is very broad it's fantastic writers everywhere you know so, like decentralized from the European gaze which is like what dominates the theater stay theater mostly, and set to make it not like something that you do specially but something that you just really bring a lot of your programming, you know, because if you have like a 70% and 80% of Ipsen and Shakespeare and stuff like that you know which has been, you know, and then you say who are going to make it a little bit so I'm going to make the territory, you see a lot, you know, we're going to make the territory orchard and Lopacin is going to be Turkish, you know, and I'm like no that's not okay that's not like modernizing everything it's not like putting a Russian putting you know like I mean this is like, you know using all fictions to say yeah the story still works, but we just need to change you know that's like yeah of course it still works are classics you know but I mean but this is like really lazy, you know, just to take, you know, check off forever and then put different phases on it you know, and that's what a lot of theaters think that it's progressive that this is like including immigrants okay we're going to, and I think this is like it has to change from the thinking you know that's like not how you change, you know the structures of the representation or you know because these people at the end they still find that the piece is old you know it has nothing to do with them, you know, so it's like, you know, it's very superficial you know so maybe you have to like then just take a piece of Pamuk, you know whatever just say you you want a Turkish play, he's writing novels but then adapt the novel into the stage, I don't know, like there's so much things people can do and actually to make theater more dynamic you know and not just like okay we, you know we're going to do it like it was done in 400 million years, you know, you have a lot of space for that too. Let's keep in mind, investigate more, more curious, find more spaces for writers, directors and ensemble, same of course. Yeah, you also maybe listen to more what the actors you know like if you have a more diverse cast you know and you start to look for like also you know from the schools already you start to include like a more diverse like like you know like bring you know it's going to one thing brings the other you know like then you know you're going to have younger actors who are like coming from the more diverse backgrounds you know and then these people will read different things and then you will listen to them and then you know slowly things will change you know like not so slow because it's been very slow actually you know so you know yeah. Yeah. Yes, it's slow but it is changing. I think also there are so many different ways to work with diversity representation is one of them to just count and see how many you have on stage and also with the ushers the people that the audience meet but of course it needs to go up on a higher level and it needs to come out from the authors from the CEOs at the theaters and this is a process that takes time and another problem is that people at the theater think that they can just pick someone off the street and that they will have the same experience and the same quality as a person that has gone to theater school and maybe even played theater as a child. The whole system is we live in a society where racism is structural and the whole system is created so that some people can get themselves up to the top levels so this is something that we need to work with I think and try to create spaces and places and an infrastructure at the theaters where we can bring in young talented people or emerging artists and give them the tools that they need. We can work with mentorship programs. We can work with different kinds of arts and not just only actors. I mean we have in Sweden we have a lot of actors that are not white but the directors you can count on one hand. The authors as well, light designers, none that I know of, set designers maybe one. So this is a problem that is in the whole of the theater and not just the visual parts. So this is something we can work on and the stories that are told of course also and that's also something that we can work with mentorships we can work with writing programs and we can create educations or I mean ways for people to come into the theater that are not the traditional because it takes so much time to change the traditional ways the schools are taking so long so much time to to change who they are admitting and how they are working with it and then even if you're admitted to a school you're admitted into a school that works with the very western white gaze on writing so that's also a problem you you are admitted to school but then you feel like okay I was admitted here but they want to change the whole way that I work the whole way that I write they want to change me so why was I even admitted here so we need to create those spaces and places and ways that the alternative ways to change I think and that's possible and it's not even hard to do because we have the competence and we have the professionalism in the theater so we just need to open up and give it away and give our knowledge to people who can use it to move forward because that's the only way to change. Yvette, do you know where is at what you're and I'm also curious about you know ways that the innovative ways for people to come into the theaters when you look at the world you are you have been traveling and seeing where theater is ways to have access and ways to have more diversity in the audience if there's something like a best practice example you can imagine or you can remember. And we'll just firstly to pick up on what fun was was saying and I mean you know just I think that what that also does I totally agree with what she's just said I think what that also does those that it requires us to think differently about how we view quality and what is quality what is good and really looking to decentralize the kind of white aesthetics the western aesthetics that you know have been normalized and to challenge ourselves on that level and to challenge ourselves also in the ways of working that we find comfortable. And what that might mean is that we need deeper engagement longer engagement around the work in order for the work to be truly meaningful and and in order to really create something which is uniquely harvesting the gifts of all, you know the diverse participants in the process, essentially so you know in other words, we've got to take, we've got to have more of a collective sense of co creating, rather than a kind of a centralized single vision, you know that knows where it's heading before it's before it's got there. And so yeah that that sense of longer exploration and I think that that's also a space that can potentially then be a space that gives training give support gives development. You know, for, for people who have been outside the system in some way or another and every theater company could be doing that, you know, no matter how small. And I think that's my other point is that actually, and we can, we can look at all the best practice examples from around the world but what's most important is that we apply something locally in our own context. It's only through actually doing the work that we learn to do the work if you know what I mean. And so through engaging that we, we start to understand our particular context and how this needs to work in it. And I think my sense is sometimes that we all sort of are waiting for someone to show us the way, rather than diving in, and maybe making the mistakes, you know, but, but, but in that process, hopefully becoming more inclusive and more diverse. So whether there are, you know, particular ways of doing things around the world that can act as. I mean I think that there have been so many really good examples of solidarity not necessarily from within the theater movement but for example within the Black Lives Matter movement or, you know, within other kind of cultural activism movements that I think that theater could be looking at. And, and I think that, you know, in the, in, as I said, as I said earlier in the end, there's, there's not, we have to personalize our solutions we have to look at our own context and work in our own context. But we can also develop a set of principles for how we want to work that that we can learn from from others experiences and try and avoid the mistakes that have been made. Thank you, Julia, are there questions there are a lot of questions, I think. There's really a big discussion or there are lots of thoughts and comments being shared. And but I think that by your last answers for us and that already answered a lot about like how, how to start how to how to do this whole thing. If you don't if you don't if you have no, no, no idea if you have no experience with this I think this we have already answered. And there has been one thought. Two, two thoughts I would like to share one is like, I think fun has already mentioned that by changing the educational system there was the question for if we change the education the theater studies in schools for example wouldn't it change a lot in the whole in the whole process in the whole structures. This is one question and another thought that I would like to share is the idea of do we always need to be understood and do we always need to be understood as one question like if we want to to get in touch with other cultures with other with the other. Is it isn't really necessary that I have to translate or is there a mutual understanding that maybe is not in the rational way we always think is needed. I just want to answer about the educational system, of course, it's a very, we have only another I don't know seven minutes to talk about the educational system in the theaters, and how this could be diverse and inclusive is a big issue. I don't know how what experience I think in Sweden are the same experience like in, in, in Germany or mostly the same. I'm not sure. I would like to hear about more about. I don't know what we're constants us actors are coming from which schools maybe mostly dancing schools which are totally diverse. So, it's a big, it's a big issue that the educational system on us. I also wanted to say something about language because language is also a way of working with representation and inclusion, and language can often be a barrier at the theater because we let theater is a very language based art form. And I think this is also a reason why dance is more diverse, for example. And this has also been a problem with the theater schools because they for a long time they didn't didn't want to admit people that had an accent that had maybe Swedish was their second language, or or young people that were grew up in the underprivileged areas that had a social like their slang that would not can be considered real Swedish or like theater language. This is also something that we can work with at the theater is trying to create more multilingual performances. I mean a lot of children right now are living in a multilingual society. I myself was brought up bilingual and have a lot of friends as well who I mean children are used to hearing a lot of different languages in their world so it wouldn't be strange for us to do that at the theater as well. The answer is in a phone block. So she can answer, but maybe that is offline. But about the, I, again, I tried to talk about the educational system. I absolutely agree from us with the lingual the language also as a barrier. I could talk about a lot about that. I still I would go back to the idea that it could start with the educational system if there are other people have access to writers workshops to director seminars and to to actors schools. Then it would hold totally different system. From the basis to the theater. Yeah, but I think also not being afraid to work in a multilingual context where you're not going to necessarily understand every word that somebody else is saying that you know that one of the beautiful things about theater is that one can find new languages. And in the South African context we've seen so much of that work we see have so many amazing theater companies who've worked across languages, often using several different languages in a performance, many of our actors are multilingual anyway but but beyond that, you know, developing ways of a theater language whether it's a symbolic language or a language that uses the body as well as sound or whatever to, to find ways to communicate that you know and, and, and that can be the richness of the diversity is that actually using those languages not as a barrier but as a resource to really explore the uniqueness of everybody's contribution and you know our capacity to be fully human with one another. So we slowly come to the end of this discussion and we will start to go into breakout rooms where you are you all have the possibility to meet Farners event in constant and hopefully Constanza in in in smaller rooms to have. So choose. I don't hear nothing. Hello. Hello. Hello with us. Yeah. I need your headphones. Okay. Let's, let's, let's have a short last statements about what is important. If we, we had, we had a very, we touched a lot of issues like investigate more different ways of representation of changing the education. What is quality the question of who is who is who is judging about quality in which, in which context about engaging locally in your theater may doing mistakes and developing also the language languages, which have no barriers only by the one language so there are many issues on the table, but I would like to ask you if you want to have a short like summary for you what was for you the most important point you would like to talk about in the breakout room. Maybe starting with the. Would you like to talk in the breakout rooms when we can can go a bit deeper into discussion. We come to hear you. Hello, sorry, excuse me. No, what I thought, like, I think it's for me the most important is what kind of questions are right. If there's any questions or anything that people wants to talk about, you know, in this concern because also like that is interesting for me because then I know what it just generates also like some kind of channel of thought, you know, that those are like what is also nice when people come like ask you things within the subject because then you can also like expand yourself in and just also like listen back and forth you listen because so many questions they carry already a message now and that's interesting for me because for me that the team of inclusion and diversity which is for me accessibility is very important subject so it's like that will be something I would like to talk about. And it's something that is an endless learning highway you know, so I think this is a very good thing, you know that I would like to talk about mostly about that. I think this is all about the record rooms to hear the voices of the participants, not only our voices, you're more voices more diverse versus exactly. It's the wonderful opportunity to hear more suggestions and ideas. Exactly. Now I'm with the Constanza I think the same it depends completely on what what I mean with dealt with so many topics here today so it depends on what what what you want and what you need us to talk about. I think demystification was a really good word that event used in the beginning and I think for me that's something very important to continue to work with. And that's also something that you can work with not only towards the audience but also if you don't know how to go about you want to change but you don't know how. You know, collaborate bring in people and just don't be afraid to show your work instead of living in the little theater bubble because that won't change anything. What was the most inspiring words that you got this morning. Well I think I think the word that hasn't been mentioned but a word that's sitting with me right now is courage. You know, I think that this work takes courage and I'd be interested to know what makes people feel afraid of entering the space if they are afraid of entering the space or what people or what motivates them to to take that courage and move into a more diverse more equitable more accessible inclusive way of working. And so what would inspire us to do that and what would and what is preventing us from doing it. So yeah, I just be interested I mean coming as a complete outsider to Europe. I'd love to know. It's wonderful to have critical friends from outside. I hope of course that we are not only discussing Europe, but also beyond the borders of Europe is so crucial in this time. And thank you. And now for the first hour of our talk. Now we want to hear more voices we go into three rooms and you can decide where you want to go. I think Teresa who is the host of this meeting will explain us the way from the webinar to the zoom meeting, because unfortunately now the live streaming is ending because we don't want to we want now to have space for for questions and work together in the chat. So it was wonderful to have this live stream discussion live streamed. Now we go into the zoom meeting in three breakout rooms and then you can use as I will us how exactly thank you, Stefan, I have just posted the message in the chat as well that this participants within zoom are now welcome to return to the auditorium on the forum platform I have included the link on the side you have to enter with your email at registered email address. And then you find the zoom meeting link for the next hour in the auditorium. Once this web in our closest please go to the auditorium for the next zoom meeting link and join us there after a very short break and then we will put you, you can choose which breakout room you would like to go to with fun as Constanza or event. Thank you very much. Thank you very much from my side. It was a very inspiring talk. Thank you. Three panelists. And we go on working on that. And of course we have now we have to come to the point that we say, if we identify the challenges, how can we go to action. What is our task for the next, I don't know, for the next hour next day and the next month and the next year. Say what comes out of what that means for political action. Maybe we can start in the breakout rooms with with this question about, what can we come from, describing the landscape actions for politicians. So, it was not about being beautiful it was just about finding a good end. And now we go to the breakout rooms and play I'm sorry we couldn't meet all the questions but please take them to the breakout rooms, especially those for like support and political actions as Stefan said that will be a great issue to talk about in the next 40 minutes and then we can see what we want to discuss in each individual group. Are we leaving. And we are not we're not changing the breakout rooms so once you have decided to come in one breakout room, you will stay with this expert.